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Justify Creationism

Numerical analysis, the adherence to scientific principles and the application of risk management are the nature of my background. Unlike an accountant or chemist who revel in their absolutes - weighing up the percentages my norm. Could some one here, explain to me the justification for creationism?

Moderator - Flop the logic and justify evolution and then you might quickly find your answer. Evolution is a myth.

Join Our Christian Chat and Take The Creationism Quiz
 ---Daithi on 12/16/07
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Alan: "Allegory or metaphor is not a lie, or a deception." Do you go thruogh life that way? If someone tells you (twice) that he'll pay you 6 million pounds, and even puts it in writing, but only gives you 6 pounds, do you accept that as only a metaphor. I would call it a lie!!!
---jerry6593 on 3/10/08

But Alan what do you mean by 'I beleive God made everything?' Seeing how you define 'truth' I can't accept this statement at face value.

Don't be insulted by my doubt. You doubt that God wrote historical truth.
---Warwick on 3/7/08

Warwick ... I reapeat, It is a pity that you can't accept that I beleive God made everything.
---alan_of_UK on 3/7/08

But Alan, the eruption of Mt St Helens caused many events to follow. Deep layers of sediment formed quickly, later eroded by mudflows, carving a canyon often called The Little Grand Canyon,it being 1/40th the size of the Grand Canyon. Now there is a little river running through it!

This erosion took one day showing that such formations can occur rapidly by catastrophic processes, not slowly over millions of years.
---Warwick on 3/6/08

But Warwick, Mount St Helen's was an eruption, not a flood!!
It is a pity that you can't accept that I beleive God made everything.
---alan_of_UK on 3/6/08


Ok, I'm familiar with how C14 dating works, but not K-Ar. I'll have to read up on that.
---StrongAxe on 3/5/08

Strongaxe what you say is a reasonable conclusion. However the K-Ar 'clock' only begins 'ticking' when the lava cools. Therefore this radiometric dating method supposedly gives the date when the cooling occurred.
---Warwick on 3/5/08

When God created He created everything as He called it. Everything He created was complete and mature. When He created the Sun He created it the way it is, He could have created it older. He created man He created an adult. Created animals with age. he created the stars with their age. He didn't create things that were not developed. He said, and it was done. How hard is that to understand? If you can understand He is God who holds all things in His hands, how hard can it be to understand creation?
---Mark_V. on 3/5/08

#2. Christians are not stupid as some here think. They know the sun has many years, that God create with that many years is no mystery. He could have made it older and bigger. He created the animals grown up. He didn't create a bunch of fitus's. People like the Scientist don't understand because they have no faith in God. What else is knew? No God, no creation by God, "Just think how something can come out of nothing. Nothing makes nothing. Now that is very dumb.
---Mark_V. on 3/5/08


While the deposits may only have been on the surface for 10 years, the lava they came from was likely inside the earth for a MUCH longer time, so 350 thousand or 3 million doesn't seem that unreasonable.
---StrongAxe on 3/5/08

I knew a couple of sisters in high school that used comet on their teeth for whitening purposes. It took the enamel off of their teeth. They used the kind with the little green dots for extra whitening. It worked.
Their teeth felt so clean, they said. Later on, big problems.
Cleaning up can have it's consequences.
---Bob on 3/5/08

Alan no human witnessed the Grand Canyon's formation. However people witnessed the Mt St Helen's eruption and aftermath and saw how quickly sedimentary layers formed, and how quickly they were eroded into a large canyon system, with steep sides.

Mikem has great faith in radiometric dating but dating of lava flows at Mt St Helen's, seen to form in 1981, dated at 350,000 years only 10 yrs later. Enclosed minerals dated at 2.8 million yrs. Accurate? Ridiculous!
---Warwick on 3/5/08

a) MikeM various dating techniques do not 'fall on the same line,' as you claim. Uinkaret Plateau basalt at the Grand Canyon was dated by K-Ar, Rb-Sr, Rb Sr Isochron, and Pb-Pb Isochron methods. Age of the rock by these accurate methods which you say agree with one another? From 1,000 years all the way through to 2,600,000,000 years. Hey Mike if you were this inaccurate with your tax return you could end up in the same 'hotel' as Kent Hovind.
---Warwick on 3/5/08

b) MikeM 230 million year old sandstone from near my home in Sydney contains wood which dated at a maximum age of 34,000 yrs by c14- an error of 6,764 times! I am glad my watch is more accurate.

30 million years old limestone near Oxford University in the UK had timber within it- dated at a maximum of 23,000 yrs. I can shoot at a target blindfolded more accurately than this. Anyone can research all of this.

Exceptions disprove the rule!
---Warwick on 3/5/08

MikeM denies radiometric dating methods are assumption based-consider a few assumptions within uranium/lead 1)That uranium 238 decay rate has always been as it is today- possible but assumption. 2)That the lead in the rock is a'daughter element' of uranium decay-lead exists as a free element as well as from U 238 decay-no way of telling-therefore assumption. 3)That the uranium or lead has not migrated through the rock via water leaching-no way of knowing-so an assumption. Assumptions!
---Warwick on 3/5/08

Tom2 1 Peter 3:15 says we are to give 'the reason for the hope we have.' Im confident one reason for the hope is explained in Romans 1:20 which says it is so obvious that this is a created world that 'men are without excuse.' We can not nor do we need to 'prove' that the Bible is correct because we are people of faith but not blind faith, obviously.
---Warwick on 3/5/08

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How did you find out that tidy bowl cleaner takes the enamel off teeth?
That's something I never tried (and can't imagine anyone else trying either) :)
---StrongAxe on 3/4/08

no mike what iam saying is too say that god did not make it,that it somehow made itself is paganism and blasphemy.a BIG difference.any science that proclaims life exists,or started without god as the creator is blasphemy.
---tom2 on 3/4/08

mike read the post,IF YOU SAY YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN is what i wroteand you seach for a starting point SCIDNTIFICALLY you are blaspheming. THATS WHAT I SAID ,AND YES IAM YELLINH. SEEMS YOU DON,T READ WELL FOR A SCIENTIST.
---tom2 on 3/4/08

Yes, Warwick, I did mean you ... sorry!
But you scenario still puzzles me.
If "these deep waters flowed over sediment which had yet to harden to sedimentary rock?" ...
How did the sides of the canyons survive so vertically if the sediment wss soft?
And when did that sediment harden into rocks??
---alan_of_UK on 3/4/08

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Tom, "study your physical surroundings looking for imperical evidence" So Tom you say knowlwedge derived from empirical evidence is a slap in God's face? Thats almost exactly what the Pope said to Galilieo when he condemned him. Are you kidding?
---MikeM on 3/4/08

Are those elements found in tidy bowl cleaner, Mike?
No wonder it takes the enamel off of teeth.
---Bob on 3/4/08

There are many forms of dating outside of RM dating, all seem to fall on the same line. There is constant testing-testing-testing-testing, Cross referencing of data etc. My field is dendrochronology, in which other forms of dating are cross referenced, seperate sciences all conform the timeline. creationist begin with a subjective absolute, rendering ALL objectivity as irrelevant
---MikeM on 3/4/08

argon-argon (Ar-Ar)
fission track dating
helium (He-He)
iodine-xenon (I-Xe)
lanthanum-barium (La-Ba)
lead-lead (Pb-Pb)
lutetium-hafnium (Lu-Hf)
neon-neon (Ne-Ne)
optically stimulated luminescence dating
potassium-argon (K-Ar)
radiocarbon dating
rhenium-osmium (Re-Os)
rubidium-strontium (Rb-Sr)
samarium-neodymium (Sm-Nd)
uranium-lead (U-Pb)
uranium-lead-helium (U-Pb-He)
uranium-thorium (U-Th)
uranium-uranium (U-U)
---MikeM on 3/4/08

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The precision dating methods depends in part on the half-life of the radioactive isotope involved. True, c-14 has a half-life of about 6000 years. After an organism has been dead for 60,000 years, so little c-14 is left to make dating impossible. The isotope used in uranium-thorium dating has a longer half-lifemaking it more accurate than radiocarbon dating. One cannot truncate the whole timeline based on an anomolie here or their.
---MikeM on 3/4/08

evolution is just a form of paganism,as is say you are a christian and study your physical surroundings looking for imperical evidence as to it,s starting point is a slap in gods face.
---tom2 on 3/4/08

Alan didn't you mean Warwick?

The year-long flood of Noah destroyed the world that was, ripping up and laying down. Scripture says God caused the waters to rush off the earth to where He appointed for them to go. Imagine the tremendous erosion which would have occurred when these deep waters flowed over sediment which had yet to harden to sedimentary rock?

History shows even small floods can erode large canyons, quickly. Read up on the canyons at Mt St Helen's.
---Warwick on 3/4/08

Mike If you truly believe Scripture to be 'divinely inspired' then you must believe God created as per Genesis, as Jesus and the Apostles believed. Otherwise aren't you saying one thing while believing another?
---Warwick on 3/4/08

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MikeM Genesis clearly proposes a time-frame of creation, method of creation, order of creation, at one beginning, the same beginning when man was made. If true then it bluntly contradicts the evolutionary philosophy, via the Words of One who was there, who doesn't make mistakes and cannot lie.

Opposed to this we have the feeble ideas of men which constantly change as new information contradicts old. Have a look at an old evolutionary text book, and laugh.
---Warwick on 3/4/08

MikeM you say "there is no such thing as 'evolutionary age,'" this must mean you believe the age of the earth in the evolutionary story is the same as that shown in God's Word via the genealogies? I'd like to see that!

Assumption based? Indeed all methods created to date items from the past, such as radiometric dating, are assumption based. Are you saying that the uranium/lead method (for example)is not based upon assumptions?
---Warwick on 3/4/08

Chris I agree we can't lose sight of the Gospel. Jesus came, died and rose again so the curse which, began with Adam's rebellion, may be overturned. The New Testament writings say the Gospel is about Jesus reversing what Adam began. How can we define sin without referring to the real events of Genesis? Genesis is relevant and historical otherwise on what basis do we say forgiveness and heaven are real?

I worship Jesus alone as Revelation says the eternal Gospel is to worship the creator.
---Warwick on 3/4/08

my goodness mikem,sounds like you believe everything.evolution that says man developed from monkeys is BLASPHEMY, period.
---tom2 on 3/3/08

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MikeM you're well aware there exist numerous instances where radiometric dating gave false ages-millions/billions-of years for rock strata known to be quite young, because of independant proof-eg Mt St Helens.

Shown to be wrong where independent proof existed why should dates be accepted elsewhere where no independant proof exists?

ONE rock strata at the Grand Canyon was given radiometric dating ages ( different methods)from 100,000 to 1,300,000,000years. Accurate?
---Warwick on 3/3/08

MarkV I see what you say. Do you mean that the Flood first laid down a layer of sedimentary material, in layers, then compacted it down to an thickness of 1.6 km, and more, by then so strong & hard that it was able to be carved away by the receding water ... and all within the short time of the Flood?
---alan_of_UK on 3/3/08

There are those who worship evolution and those who worship a literal six day creation, either way we lose sight of the main teachings of christianity of recognizing our sins, asking for forgiveness, loving your neighbor and trying to be a better person. This also goes for those who endlessly argue about whether the flood was literally a global flood.
---chris on 3/2/08

"Evolutionary age of the earth is assumption based" That statement is divorced from ALL the seperate sciences, thus in making it one is against ALL the sciences, not just one. Also, there is no such thing as 'evolutionary age'- That is jargon idiosyncratic to the religion of fundamentalist creationism.

One can always find anomolies, like incorrectly dated rocks, it in no way displays an inherent weakness in evolution.
---MikeM on 3/2/08

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1.I believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, next to faith- biology is rather unimportant. "Believe in Evolution" like I believe in the Gospeln of Jesus Christ? No I accept Evolution like I use the Quadratic Formula, they are both useful for a certain class of problems that I have to solve. I don't place my eternal life in the care of a scientific theory, or law.
I reject the idea that evolution and Christianity are always and must be in opposition to each other.
---MikeM on 3/2/08

2.I reject the notion that if the scientific theory of evolution is true, then Christianity must be false.

I reject the idea that people who accept evolution must be atheists.

I reject the idea that the scientific theory of evolution fundamentally denies the idea of God the Creator.

I reject the idea that evolution and Christian faith are inevitably in conflict with each other and cannot be reconciled.
---MikeM on 3/2/08

Jerry ... You know perfectly well how metaphor or allegory is used to point the Truth.
The are dozens of examples in thwe Bible ... I have given a few already, elsehwere, if not on this blog.
Allegory or metaphor is not a lie, or a deception.
---alan_of_UK on 3/1/08

Fundamentalist reject the physical sciences. True Geologist accept both catastrophism and uniformitarianism, they combine catastrophist and uniformitarianist standpoints, the view that Earth's history is a slow, gradual process punctuated by occasional natural catastrophic events that have affected Earth.

Fundamentalist, in desperation- look for anomolies, mistakes in 'dating' then when they find one-declare inherent weakness in the sciences.
---MikeM on 3/1/08

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jerry,why cant people,especially those who proclaim to be saved,take gods word at face value?i have been on this site for nearly 2 years,and i must say for a christian site with so many people who claim to be following jesus, their speculation,and interpretation seem like false can you say your a christian and believe evolution?not you.but many here do.
---tom2 on 3/1/08

Alan the Grand Canyon exposes layers of sedimentary rock about 1.6km deep. The evidence is these deep layers were formed as soft sediments under deep flowing water and carved through in one later flow. The various layers intersecting in a knife edge line with no evidence of activity such as erosion in between- so no long ages between.

This evidence better fits the Biblical flood story than the billions of years evolutionary story. Have a look at the site creationontheweb dot com.
---Warwick on 2/29/08

Alan lava flows in Hawaii were seen to cool (basalt= cooled lava) by witnesses, about 200 years ago. Recently these flows were dated by Potassium/Argon dating giving various ages from 136 million to 3 billion years. We therefore know that here (and elsewhere) eye-witness evidence disproves radiometric dating results therefore why should we then trust results where there are no witnesses? Read about it on the site creationontheweb dot com.

I have already answered the pillars question, twice.
---Warwick on 2/29/08

I already have. And here it is again. In the beginning God Created. EVERYTHING.
---catherine on 2/29/08

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Alan: Finally, we're making progress! So you think that Moses carved the 10C rocks and then either lied or used a metaphorical deception about their contents and who wrote them. Is that correct? Have you considered that maybe he (Moses) and the other prophets just made the whole thing up? Maybe it's a conspiracy! How can you believe anything these guys say?
---jerry6593 on 2/29/08

Jerry ... I guess you missed my comment on that elsewhere ... but no i don't think yuo did. I suggest that Moses said God's finger wrote the Commandments was figurative to show how important they were. And so if it's not 144 hours, it's not a lie.
---alan_of_UK on 2/28/08

Warwick "What if the world-wide flood of Noah carved through unconsolidated sedimentary layers?" .. Could have been the/a flood, or a glacier, or a river ... I don't know enough about the Grand Canyon (in spite of Cindy's insistence, I don't live inthe u
US) and don't know about "unconsolidated sedimentary layers. Presumably they now consolidated, otherwise they would not be firm enough to hold the steep sides.
---alan_of_UK on 2/28/08

Warwick ... "200 year old basalt dated at 3,000,000.000 years". I know nothing of this. When & how was the basalt formed? Presumably the forming was witnessed and recorded.

By the way Warwick, you did promise to say about the "pillars"
---alan_of_UK on 2/28/08

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Alan: I guess you missed the last several times, so here it is again.

Within the Ten Commandments, written with God's own finger is:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is

So either creation took six literal days, or God lied when He wrote that. I don't think that God is a liar. Do you?
---jerry6593 on 2/28/08

a)Evolutionary age of the earth is assumption based. Evolutionist's belief regarding the earth's age went from hundreds of thousands of years to billions as increasing knowledge indicated the processes must have happened incredibly slowly over vast unimaginable periods of time. These ages were believed before processes like radiometric dating were known.

Remember many instances exist where radiometric dating has been shown to be wrong-200yr old basalt dated at 3,000,000.000 years. Slightly wrong!
---Warwick on 2/26/08

b)Geology shows the world to be more than 10,000 years old-like to see that! One evolutionary favourite is the Colorado River's Grand Canyon erosion rate-based on uniformitarian assumptions,the belief that present forces are the same as those in the past-untestable speculation.

What if the world-wide flood of Noah carved through unconsolidated sedimentary layers? Couldn't this landform have been carved quickly? A reasonable proposal,starting from a Biblical basis.
---Warwick on 2/26/08

Warwick ... I see the Creation has now been shortened to 24 hours ... I'm sure you don't mean that!
Yu ask for Biblical proof of my ideas, but they are ideas only, and you can call it speculation if you wish.
But where is the Biblical statement that, as Jerry claims, the Creation account was written by God's own finger, or even dictated by Him as a scientific text book or record?
---alan_of_UK on 2/25/08

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Warwick ... The difference between us is two-fold:...
Firstly, I find no conflict at all between my ideas (call it speculation, if you like) and the Truth contained in Genesis, whereas you exclude the possibility of allegory.
Secondly, unlike you, I do not say that my "opponent" in this debate is definitely wrong, and if he does not agree with my view, he is challenging & denying the Bible & has no Faith.
---alan_of_UK on 2/25/08

I wish all of you well. Have a nice life. So long. -I.S.
---InimicusStultitiae on 2/25/08

no god wants us to REPENT.and believe his son.that was and is his plan from the fall of adam and eve.thers a big difference in believing there is a god and believing god.
---tom2 on 2/25/08

Well, being born-again and understanding what that means, all the justification that I need is this>>"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, let there be light: and there was light. [Genesis 1-3].>>> Either you will believe the truth and what God tells us, or you will choose to believe man.
---catherine on 2/25/08

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Alan you propose ideas contrary to what is written in Scripture. I have supplied Biblical references to support 24 hr creation etc, and have simply asked you to give Biblical references to support your views, but you fail to answer:

What Biblical evidence supports your idea God may have used evolution to 'create', and that the days of creation are other than 24hr days?

If you can't supply Biblical references, simply concede that your views are speculations, not from Scripture.
---Warwick on 2/24/08

Regarding Robert Bakker,why should we be surprised if some Christians prefer man's ideas rather than His Word?

Dr Michael Denton (double doctorate microbiologist) says he 'believes' in evolution but accepts it isn't proven fact and should not be taught as such. Quote: 'Ultimately the Darwinian theory of evolution is no more nor less than the great cosmogenic myth of the twentieth century.' 'Evolution: A theory in Crisis' p 358

Yes I have met and talked with him. First hand information.
---Warwick on 2/24/08

Ah, so God is doing everything in His power to convnce men that He does not exist.
He wants us to suffer and go to hell.
I wonder why, maybe he doen't have enough room in Heaven. That was bad planning, but He is rhe perfct planner, so it must be His original intention to make us deny Him so he can send us to Hell.
Some loving God
---a on 2/24/08

Ah, so God is doing everything in His power to convnce men that He does not exist.
He wants us to suffer and go to hell.
I wonder why, maybe he doen't have enough room in Heaven. That was bad planning, but He is rhe perfct planner, so it must be His original intention to make us deny Him so he can send us to Hell.
Some loving God
---alan_of_UK on 2/24/08

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UK Alan, but you do indeed have sense of humo(u)r, much needed around here. I appreciate that.
---InimicusStultitiae on 2/24/08

Someone said, "evolution says the earth is billions of years old." This statement is incorrect. Astronomy, geology, and a host of other sciences say that the earth is billions of years old. Evolution draws on these disciplines for an estimate of the time in which evolutionary processes works. Science 101. This is important in order to realize the depth of ignorance of those who assert the earth is 10,000 years old, as they dispute ALL areas of many sciences-other than a 'portion' of biology.
---MikeM on 2/24/08

well personally i believe the only thing that science has accomplished is part of gods plan to harden the heartd of men in the end times.and they will become lovers of the flesh ,and hear only those things which they explains nothing.why?everything works the way it works because god set it up that way.I would rather know god,knowing the one who made it all is soooo much more appealing
---tom2 on 2/23/08

I.S. ... No I am not a freemeson.
I was invited to show interest twice, but declined
Neither am I a RC, let aklone a jesuit, nor am I a communist.
Neither am I a fascist, nor a clever scientist, or a paid denouncer olf conspiracy theories.
---alan_of_UK on 2/24/08

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mikem,insults science and the bible?the first semtence in the bible says IN THE BEGINING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. what part of the word created and creationism don,t you understand? a creator creates mike.boy what a hypocritical statement.
---tom2 on 2/23/08

by definition science is suppose to be emperical.meaning observing any phenomonon,and for any other reseacher to be able to perform said experiment with the same results.but as we all know science today has darwinned itself into conjecture.without proof of such.aka evolution no observable proof yet its become fact,sounds like religion too me not science.if it looks like a skunk,and smells like a skunk,it probably is a skunk.
---tom2 on 2/23/08

mikem,iam not a think as i do christian.gods word tells me that you have a free will right to choose what to believe.over a lifetime i have come to the conclusion that happenstance,or chance of all we see creating itself is so ridiculous as to be morbid.believe me in heaven there are no scientists,only worshippers.i worship god,many people worship the world and themselves.
---tom2 on 2/23/08

mikem,it is quite clear that science is your religion.and thats fine,and your right to choose the world rather than jesus christ,and choose the world over god and his word.but I really wish you would stop insinuating that born again christians who believe in a creation by god alone universe are idiots.we believe what jesus said that this world this reality is not his kingdom,his kingdom is spiritual and one day we will either be there with him ,or burned to a crisp in the lake of fire.
---tom2 on 2/23/08

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Frances ... Thank you for understanding.
But I am not "throwing out Creation"
I beleive that God was the Creator, and have said so perhaps 100 times or more during thse discussions.
Sadly "Creationism" is not a beleif that God was Creator ... it is much narrower, and tries to excludes those Christians who think.
---alan_of_UK on 2/23/08

Job 38:1-4 ... Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man, for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
---jerry6593 on 2/23/08

Another proof that Darwinism is ONLY religion is the fact that they use legislatures & boards of education to keep anti-evolution facts out of schools. They short circuit the progression of responsible scientific research by not allowing contrary evidence into scientific discussion, field research, peer review, and publication of findings in major scientific journals. Darwinism cannot hold up to science, so they go under the radar to try to appear scientific and credible.
---jerry6593 on 2/23/08

wow creationism isn,t science,mikem show me your the universe made itself,make a universe that makes life from a provable scientific experiment that shows each step that the universe used to make what exists today.since the entire universe is involved in the process from the big bang right up to making stars and dying ones,and evidently making life,I Would never say the universe created it that would make me a panthlogist as einstein was.SHOW ME
---tom2 on 2/23/08

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now remember this process must be able to be performed by any qualified scientist, THIS MAKES UT PROVABLE BY ANYONE by performing the same life generating experiment and come with the same results.
---tom2 on 2/23/08

or is the process just mere chance?oh watch out now we are into mathamatical probabilities which are so astronomical you can,t write the numbers down without a sheet of paper stretch around the world.the astronomical occurences that had to occur to make the varied life on this planet alone are beyond calculation.this will probably take a few million years ,ill wait upstairs with jessus for your answer.
---tom2 on 2/23/08

mike PLEASE short circuit scientific experimentation,or proven has proven nothing about how the universe was formed,let alone all the life on this are now giving false statements as facts,oh is that what scientists do ?just sling out any old line as fact then try to prove it?
---tom2 on 2/23/08

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