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Never Go To Church Again

Someone in my previous church prayed aloud for a young man (who was present) and, in doing so, told the whole church all the negative things this lad had done. The lad told his friend later that he would never set foot in the church again. Is it ever right to 'pray' so personally and publicly?

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hello,Family,been hurt different timeschurch'still have folks who are not"wise & gentle" the "goat" are there among the sheep,no one deserve their bad treatment,it comes down to this/myself (included )we some of us need structure! we strugglebecuz don't think satan don't know we are sensitive! or get caught up feelings he has a field day! So,yes we need get to church! I don't understand all the theology,but I really miss church..Pray'n the Lord bring me thru this confident Jesus will..
---ELENA on 12/4/11

I recently read your Charismania blog, Eloy.
Very similar to all of the other ones though.
They all same the thing, fountains and fountains of information.
---Miriam_Franklin on 6/9/08


Unfortunately, the Greek there is sufficiently different from English that from the straight-forward translation you gave is not at all clear what is meant. Unfortunately, I can't really comment on this further, since I've studied Hebrew but haven't really studied Greek grammar.

Still, interlinears are good in that they show the original and word-for-word translations, so it's easier to see if a translation is even in the right ballpark (and easy to identify contentious words).
---StrongAxe on 5/31/08

.emcee, you only see what you desire. The tree was cursed to show that fruitless trees are cursed by God, and subsequently the faith lesson was that if you have right faith you can say anything at all and it will happen just as you say, like the tree withered at the right words of Jesus.
---Eloy on 5/30/08

.emcee, no, I do not pardon the intrusion, because the subject being addressed is not the virtue of a fig tree, but instead the subject being addressed is Jesus cursing of the fig tree for not bearing fruit.
---Eloy on 5/30/08

Eloy::Pardon the intrusion.while you use Mark,11:13 To illustrate 1. difference in transalations cause repetitive Mistakes. 2 your anology the The fig trees like leafy trees are like believers not putting out fruit, when they should be like the sycamore Fig which has fruit year round!!!But Matt21:19 his reason for using the Fig tree is to illustrate FAITH In GOD Matt21:21 and Mark.11:20-21
---Emcee on 5/30/08

.strongaxe, but the literal word-for-word Greek disagrees with that interlinear, and the other miscomprehensions of man. The problem with sucessive translations is that by tradition the later translations "follow" the prior translations. Therefore, when the earlier translation is inaccurate, then the following translation copies the same inaccuracy.
---Eloy on 5/29/08

.strongaxe, literal Greek: ou gar hn kairos sukwn. transliterated: ou gar in kairos sykon. Which is translated directly into English: ou (not) gar (no doubt) in (to being) kairos (time) sykon (of figs)= "..., not no doubt to being time of figs."
---Eloy on 5/29/08


I know about other parables of unfruitful trees being cast out. I have no problems with those. Just this one.

I guess "yet" was inferred (italics in KJV), unfortunately online bibles don't show that distinction.

Even if "yet" is removed, one is left with "for the time of figs was not" (The interlinear I looked up says "for season not was of-figs"). This implies there were no figs on the tree BECAUSE it was not the right season for them.
---StrongAxe on 5/29/08

No ~ that happens more than you can say. many turned off by silly, immature Christians.
---melanie on 5/29/08

.strongaxe, When the word "yet" was added to the verse, this can lead readers into thinking that Jesus arrived before the tree's regular season of producing fruit. But knowing that Jesus is perfect, I researched this verse and found that the tree should have been bearing but it was not, it was only putting out leaves and no fruit. Like many believers today not putting out any real fruit proving their belief, but only showy leaves outwardly pretending to have fruit.
---Eloy on 5/29/08

Absolutely NOT! Such a personal and public prayer is an adolescent, passive aggressive, Pharisee-type prayer that, whether consciously or not, sets the praying person up to showcase his own disapproval or his own "righteousness" to his audience. He is praying to men and not to God. In doing this, he displeases God and makes himself a fool while causing another man to stumble.
---Barb on 5/29/08

.strongaxe, Researching, I found that the actual greek in Mark 11:13 does not have the word "yet" in it, but the word was inaccurately added by the English translators, and this addition has changed the meaning of the verse. For in the literal Greek it reads:"...and coming upon it he found nothing except leaves, not no doubt to being time of figs." Mark 11:13. Because for the sycomore fig, flowering and fruiting occurs year-round. Therefore the fig tree should have been bearing fruit.
---Eloy on 5/29/08

A lot of times people do things for attention. But we can't get caught up in the people. God will deal with him or her in his own time. Tell the young man that sometimes we run into "church people" who hold people's lives hostage.
---Senya on 5/28/08

.strongaxe, all life can change in the Lord of glory's presence, but the tree did nothing for the Lord its Creator. Jesus was teaching a lesson about faith and bearing fruit, the fig tree of Israel is his own creation (metaphorically: man is his own creation) and what happens to a covenanted tree (his commanded people: Please Read- Matthew 21:33-44) whom does not bear good fruit. Please Read- John 1:11-13+ Matthew 3:10+ 7:19,20+ John 15:6+ Matthew 21:43.
---Eloy on 5/28/08

.alanOfUk, for one not wanting to know the truth, many questions of you have. Out of the mouth the heart speaks, and you continue to bear false witness and blaspheme the sanctified of God. And you will believe and say whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 5/28/08

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Yes, that's very true. I had forgotten about that one.

Still, it just says that anger can be OK at times ("be angry"), but it isn't a license to be angry whenever we please, since it should only be appropriate times ("and sin not").

(Also see my comment on the fig story)
---StrongAxe on 5/28/08


I also find the fig tree story is also troubling for this reason:

Jesus punished the tree for something that was NOT ITS FAULT: he wanted figs at a time when they weren't in season. Inasmuch as he created figs in the first place, it was his own design decision that they wouldn't be in season at that time. Yet he looked for them there anyway, and got angry that they weren't, and cursed the tree as a result.

Was this a case of righteous anger directed against evil?
---StrongAxe on 5/28/08


Mk 11: (also Mt 21:18-21)
12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. ...
20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
---StrongAxe on 5/28/08

Eloy: "My words may be the double-edged sword, "

Only GOD'S words have stuch power, Eloy--NOT man, and therefore hot yours.

YUour TONG might be double-edged, but that's not the same thing.
---kumquat on 5/28/08

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Eloy ... You are right to preach the truth.
However, you are wrong (so I beleive) to accuse those who happen to hold a diffrent view of being unrighteous.
I may be incorrect to think for example that your useage of the word "whom" is ungrammatical, but I don't think that it is unrighteous of me to think that.
And am I unrighteous to observe that Christians do get angry and have bad emotions, or is just that my understanding of the words "bad emotion" differs from yours?
---alan_of_UK on 5/28/08

Eloy ... Incidentally, it would be interesting to receive yuor comments about the sadness and anger that Christians feel.
Does the instances that I gave of myself mean I am not a Christian?
Does your frequent and so obvious anger on these blogs indicate that yuo are not a Christian?
---alan_of_UK on 5/28/08

.alanOfUk, I will not dilute the gospel, but I will lift up the standard. My words may be the double-edged sword, and this is commanded and this is right, and will effectively divide truth from error. And every soul must choose which side they will abide in, truth or error. And if any soul chooses error my words will continue to cut until they choose righteousness rather than wrong. Please Read- Psalm 1.
---Eloy on 5/27/08

.alanOfUk, God's Commandments are Not suggestions, but Commands to be obeyed. Either the soul obeys and is greatly blessed, or else disobeys and is greatly condemned.
---Eloy on 5/27/08

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.alanOfUk, Many years ago I visited England and at that time I found it to be far more liberal than North America. While this liberality may sport carefreeness or carelessness, yet I believe because the standard has been laxed there is much more nondirection or misdirection prevailing in England. I pray that both England and America get back to God where they are suppose to be, and be the effective witness to a lost world as Commanded. Else when Christ comes, will he find faith on earth?
---Eloy on 5/27/08

StrongAxe, the Bible says 'Be angry, but do not sin.' Anger is definitely okay with God. Righteous anger. Anger at the devil and his demons. Anger at the deceptions. Anger at peoples' stupidity in being taken in by the deceptions. Anger at peoples' disobedience to the Word of God.
---frances008 on 5/27/08

.alanOfUk, I will not dilute the gospel, but I will lift up the standard. My words may be the double-edged sword, and this is commanded and this is right, and will effectively divide truth from error. And every soul must choose which side they will abide in, truth or error. And if any soul chooses error my words will continue to cut until they choose righteousness rather than wrong. Please Read- Psalm 1.
---Eloy on 5/27/08

.strongaxe, cite the verse where Jesus became angry at the fig tree. And you will believe and say whatever you desire. BTW, anger was not the subject of the barren tree, instead the barren tree being cursed by Jesus was the subject. And if you want to see the Lord's anger, read the passages where he made a whip and beat the people out of the church.
---Eloy on 5/27/08

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.strongaxe, The Bible says he cursed the fig tree not out of anger, but instead because he was seeking fruit and the time of fruiting was not yet. I know that if Jesus would have said, Fig tree, fruit for the Lord: That then straightway the tree would have produced fruit for her Creator. But he was teaching a lesson to his disciples about faith. Question: Is anger bad? Answer: The Bible instructs, Be slow to anger: the Bible does Not instruct, Anger not.
---Eloy on 5/27/08


Jesus once got angry at a fig tree and caused it to wither up. This means one of the following must be true:
1) Anger is not a bad emotion
2) Christians can have bad emotions
3) Christians are held to a higher sense of emotional self-control than Jesus.
Which is it?
---StrongAxe on 5/27/08


Yet again, you accuse me of falsehood, yet you do not support such an accusation with any proof, evidence, scripture, etc. other than just your say-so.

As I said, I am happy to be PROVEN wrong. But I am NOT happy to just be accused of being wrong with no justification.
---StrongAxe on 5/27/08

Eloy ... Have you noticed that people become upset by what you say to them? I bet you have. It is often the way you speak to someone with whom you disagree, or think is wrong.
When you say that I speak falsely, that carries an accusatory tone, as if I am deliberately spreading falsehood.
It would be more polite, and perhaps more productive of courteous discussion, if you said something like "I think you are wrong" or "Do you realise the implication of what you have said?"
---alan_of_UK on 5/27/08

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Eloy ... You say that Christians do not have bad emotions.
Do you say that someone who has been bereaved, and is sad about that, is therefore not a Christian?
Clearly from your own posts here, you still have bad emotions, of sadness (about some of your past relationships and the loss of your son) disappointment, and anger.
Is it unChristian to be sad because one's own child has not accepted Christ?
---alan_of_UK on 5/27/08

Eloy ... Is it unChristian for me to feel angry that our so-called Government for the People has reduced the amount of income tax taken from the well-to-do (of I am one) and increased the burden of tax on those who have least?
---alan_of_UK on 5/27/08

Eloy ... Is it wrong for me to feel angry that that same government has committed our armed forces to conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan, and yet fails to provide them with proper equipment.
Am I wrong to be angry when the government publicly insists that the 33 year old Nimrod aircraft is safe to fly in combat, when leaked internal documents show that they know it is unsafe?
---alan_of_UK on 5/27/08

Eloy ... Am I wrong to be angry when the police are stopped from stopping and searching youth for knives, on the grounds that it might upset them, and against freedom of the individual, and by refusing to allow these searches, allow life to be taken from innocent victims of the knife-wielders?
---alan_of_UK on 5/27/08

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Eloy, are you saying that because you are a Christian, you are above all anger? Are you saying you are always loving and kind?
---deb on 5/27/08

.alanOfUk, you speak falsely, for nonChristians have "bad" emotions, not Christians.
---Eloy on 5/26/08

Non-Christians, and even atheists have emotions ... good and bad.
I don't see therefore that they are necessarilty from God.
And would bad emotions, which even Christians have (and it has shown in the posts of most here from time to time) be from God?
So I think emotions come from within us.
God enhances and purifies good emotions
---alan_of_UK on 5/26/08

Danosaur - "Whoever submitted this question also is choosing to ponder instead of act." I make it clear in earlier postings that this happened a long time ago. The matter was dealt with by the family of the young man, whose father was one of the church elders. It caused a lot of embarrassment. The young man moved away a few years later and, at that time, he was still not attending a church. I know longer have contact with anyone who knew him so cannot update on this matter.
---RitaH on 5/26/08

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Galatians 6:17
From now on let no one cause trouble for me, for I bear on my body the brand-marks of Jesus.
I am Catholic which means Universal Christian under the Lord Jesus my Lord and my God!
Get behind me satan (eloy).
Where is the Love!??
---lisa on 5/26/08

Eloy ::Like I said you do not practice what you preach neither do you follow HIM but ready to condemn your fellowman.Jesus preached love and mixed with all,tax collectors and prostitutes you claim holiness but with exceptions.Not Gods type.But, I already know the answer but read Galatians 5:16-21.Dont play with God Eloy.
---Emcee on 5/25/08

.emcee, why should I explain to an enemy? God Commands, Rejoice, Weep, Laugh, Mourn, Be Angry, Sing, etc. etc. Think, if emotion was of the flesh as liars say, then what would that make God whom he himself has emotion, and also Commands people to have emotion?
---Eloy on 5/25/08

Rita: " Someone in my previous church prayed aloud for a young man (who was present) and, in doing so, told the whole church all the negative things this lad had done. The lad told his friend later that he would never set foot in the church again. Is it ever right to 'pray' so personally and publicly?"

Only if this person is willing to have all his/her own sins publicly exposed by someone else.

This is usually the work of demons, btw.
---kumquat on 5/25/08

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No. His intent should be questioned by the pastor and an apology by both should be given. How would this man feel if someone "prayed" about every single sin which Christ has forgivrn him for? And you thought the sermon took too long! Whoever submitted this question also is choosing to ponder instead of act. Christianity is a verb!
---Danosaur on 5/24/08

Eloy::Why is strongaxe wrong.Emotion is of the flesh. but you say emotion is of God .Please explain?
as Emotion is of a human nature.But knowing God is spiritual "he did" become Human and "did return" to we, not have to fight and conquer our "Human sinful' emotions to gain Perfection?
---Emcee on 5/24/08

.strongaxe, you speak falsehood, and will say and believe whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 5/23/08


Emotion is of the flesh, because it is affected by mood. Mood can be affected by very fleshly things (like how much sleep we have had, how recently we have eaten, etc.)

This is not to say that it is a BAD thing (after all, God invented flesh). However, flesh is imperfect, and we should not be ruled by it, and we should not be ruled by emotion.

There are good emotions, and bad emotions. Paul did speak against the hysterical abuse of spiritual gifts in Corinth.
---StrongAxe on 5/23/08

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I am happy to be proven wrong by scriptural references, but barring that, it's just one man's opinion differing from another man's opinion.
---StrongAxe on 5/23/08

.strongaxe, emotion is Not of the flesh, but emotion is of God.
---Eloy on 5/23/08

.strongaxe, you will believe and say whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 5/23/08


I don't recall telling saying anything to you about what "you need". I was certainly not "dissing" you or condemning you.

Perhaps you were referring to my recent reply to frances008's post, and accidently thought I was replying to yours?

That post was not speaking about what she (or anyone else) needs right now - rather, it was referring to "what one needs to receive the Holy Spirit" (referring to her comments on the same).
---StrongAxe on 5/21/08

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Yes, emotion can be good. But we must NOT confuse emotion (which is of the flesh) with spirit. When people rely entirely on emotion, rather that on sound judgment and the orderly exercise of spiritual gifts, one gets hysteria and choas (which is what Paul saw in Corinth, and wrote against).

When excessive emotionalism runs rampant, it's often difficult to exercise or even recognize genuine spiritual gifts through all the noise.
---StrongAxe on 5/21/08


Some years ago, I heard a lecture by a man with the gift of prophecy. When he was young and brash, he would see bad things, and immediately speak them, and they would come to pass. Only after many years did he learn discernment, and to prophecy with exhortation rathar than condemnation (for example, "If you don't stop smoking, you will surely die" rather than "because you smoke you shall surely die")

He was not a sinner, just an imperfect saint.
---StrongAxe on 5/21/08

No way, that wasn't right at all. Seems like that person was trying to be mean, or was truly clueless. I feel bad for that kid and dont blame him. Ouch.
---Todd1 on 5/21/08

.strongaxe, emotion is good, and we are commanded to NOT QUENCH THE SPIRIT. Every true child God gets emotional when in our Lord's presence. How can any one stand in the pure unadulterated love of God in all his holiness and glory and Not feel any thing? When God your Maker touches you, you will get emotional, cry, laugh, fall, melt, something, but you will feel something. And if you stubbornly try to remain silent and still, then the very rocks around you would cry out to glorify God's presence.
---Eloy on 5/21/08

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The house lights are going up in the theater of the end times. Every falsehood is being revealed. Things we dread now will soon become nothing more than a stage prop.
Falsehoods, false prophets, false prophecies.

When Stephen encountered the real Light, he no longer noticed the stones. False prophets will flee like bats in the Light of true revelation.
---Rebekah_Martin on 5/20/08

.strongaxe, you confuse saints with sinners. If any one operates under the Holy Ghost to prophesy, all that they prophesy is of God: how they do it, when they do it, and why they do it. And if any one pretends to prophesy when God has not sent them, they are as you say, unsaved and in sin and in the flesh. The gifts of the Spirit always remain true, and if any sinner tries to appropriate them they are merely blind guides who are on their way to condemnation, and not any holy minister of the Lord.
---Eloy on 5/20/08

.strongaxe, what "seems" to you what I need, is your dissing of me, and condemnation to you.
---Eloy on 5/20/08

Eloy: (1)

Spiritual gifts do not "go bad" of their own (since the gifts of God are without repentance). Nevertheless, the people who receive them are flesh and blood, and can sometimes combine flesh and spirit in unwholesome ways (for example, using the Gift of Prophecy to spread hurtful gossip), or to whip congregations up into emotional frenzies, rather than letting them be inspired by the Spirit.
---StrongAxe on 5/19/08

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Eloy: (2)

There are people without gifts who get caught up in the emotionalism and act out. I heard one tale years ago about a pastor who "taught" people to repeat "I love you Jesus" over and over as fast as they can, and soon they'd be speaking in tongues.

I also encountered one zealous new convert who prayed for people until they were "Slain in the Spirit". He mumbled and pressed their foreheads until they fell over backwards, due to simple laws of physics.
---StrongAxe on 5/19/08


Actually, from what you just said, it seems like you need TWO things:
1) to have an open heart
2) to be lucky enough to have been chosen from the foundations of the world.

Unfortunately, most people don't have access to that information, so if someone prays, and nothing seems to happen, he's left with the agonizing choice of "either you're not good enough, or you're damned for all eternity - but you don't get to find out which"
---StrongAxe on 5/19/08

.rebekahMartin, there is charisma and there is mania, but I reiterate, there is No such thing as charismania: for that would be like wrongly saying that there is sound-insanity or a holyunholy or a Saintsinner or even a Christdevil, but you will believe and say whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 5/19/08

All you need to get the Holy Spirit is to have an open heart. He will come to the ones who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. Bishops cannot control the Holy Spirit, if they could they would be the same as Jesus Christ. No matter that they think they are, they are not.
---frances008 on 5/17/08

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God has given me a word for someone, but it wouldn't be appropriate to share on a public site.
Holy Spirit has dropped names, identifiers in my spirit. I think you're the reason I found this site in the first place.
Don't be discouraged, God is going to turn everything around. It won't be coming from the mind, but from the heart of God.
---Rebekah_Martin on 5/17/08

Words of prophecy are given as a weapon to fight with.
True words come before a spiritual or physical battle, God gives us a word to fight that battle with. Never pick up your weapons of warfare, may take longer to ever see the victory. If your answer is delayed, you've thrown out your baby (word) with the bathwater, discounted it, never used it to fight against the enemy's plans for your life, you've missed your blessing.
Pick your word (weapon) back up and fight with it.
---Rebekah_Martin on 5/17/08

Holy Spirit discernment. Holy Spirit will give you names, identifiers that are accurate. You don't have to research, they are given for confirmation, dropped right into your spirit, not mind. Holy Spirit discernment gives you accuracy, so that that the false prophet knows that God's gifts are greater than those that come from the mind or under the influence of familiar spirits.
God's Holy Spirit can bring fear and conviction to the false prophet, for them to repent of leading others astray.
---Rebekah_Martin on 5/17/08

Names, pseudo names, identifiers. I receive those and I do not have to search for them, they're right there.
A false prophet will find that very creepy as they are unable to work that up even with charismania.
---Rebekah_Martin on 5/17/08

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The question above depicts total charismania, witchcraft. The Holy Spirit would never publically humiliate a young man at his expense. A false prophet operates this way. This is the earmark of a false prophecy.
---Rebekah_Martin on 5/17/08

Holy Spirit discernment exposes false prophets so they cannot devour the sheep (above). True Holy Spirit discernment exposes false prophets. Discerning give the false prophet names, identifiers of person(s) they're committing some sin - as a way of letting them know they're on shaky "charismania" ground.
God wants them to repent, so they usually find it scary or very "creepy".
Their sins are exposed so that they cannot continue devouring and fleecing the sheep.
---Rebekah_Martin on 5/17/08

When a false prophet stands in the "bully" pulpit (above), those with true discernment are given spiritual knowledge to shut them down before they destroy others.
God will convict the false prophet, give them an opportunity to repent before they die. If they continue on, they'll be turned over to a reprobate mind, without hope.
Charismania, a dangerous thing to observe and sit under in a church.
---Rebekah_Martin on 5/17/08

A true prophet would never stand up in the bully pulpit and do this to a person.
This is charismania, Eloy.

God gives me names, identifiers and it has nothing to do with researching it. It's for a reason, because someone is devouring/fleecing/deceiving the sheep.
---Rebekah_Martin on 5/17/08

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Charismania, charisma that's moved to mania. Mania, extremely fleshy form of Christianity.
A spiritual illness, obsessive religious ideals (idealistic) or grandiose shows and/or displays of the flesh.
False prophets fall into this category. False words in the form of curses, death wishes spoken over those who make the false prophet angry. Extreme displays of anger and every false move that has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.
---Rebekah_Martin on 5/17/08

False prophets, false prophecies - examples of charismania. False prophets have no problem speaking a curse of death - you will die in a year's time if you don't do what I tell you.
Charismania comes from the mind. All false prophets speak from their mind and are not influenced by the Holy Spirit.
Holy Spirit discernment can spot them a mile away, pick them out of a service. The Holy Spirit alerts you to those operating with demons and familiar spirits rather than the Holy Spirit.
---Rebekah_Martin on 5/17/08

.strongaxe, spiritual gifts do not go bad.
---Eloy on 5/17/08

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