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Heaven And Paradise

Do you believe heaven and paradise are the same place or different?

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 ---Kella3336 on 3/21/08
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SeventhSeal, The Thing that Jesus Christ (YAHUSHUA) FULFILLED before His Death on the Cross was the Plan of The Blood Atonement for the sins of mankind, for "whosoever will".
---Gordon on 4/4/08

SeventhSeal, I said to you that YAHUSHUA did not suffer at the hands of the Enemy in any way when He died and went to Paradise BELOW. For, the Payment of any Suffering that He was to do was ALL completed up to His Last Breath ON THE CROSS. There was no need for Him to suffer in Hell for three days and three nights. I mentioned NOTHING about Future Events of the Last Days "already being fulfilled".
---Gordon on 4/3/08

.seventhseal, I honor the Laws of Jesus which he Commands, above the dead laws. However you keep neither the old laws nor his New Law.
---Eloy on 3/31/08

.seventhseal, "pontification"? more dissing from the unsaved, for out of the mouth the heart speaks. And you will say and believe whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 3/31/08

Gordo: Mat5:18 "I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled"

Bible says heaven and earth pass with great noise, fire and be created anew.

Last time I checked earth is still here and "All has not been fulfilled" Christ finished the atonement for sin and that is what He finished at the Cross, heaven and earth are still yet to be destroyed, cleansed by eternal unquencheable fire. Youre misguided
---SeventhSeal on 3/31/08

Eloy: Was that more scripture from you or more pontification?

Isa8:20 "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them"

Still keeping 9-tenths of the Law?
---SeventhSeal on 3/31/08

SeventhSeal, YAHUSHUA said "It is FINISHED" right before He died. All that He came to accomplish, the Price for Sin that He came to pay with His shed Blood, had ALL BEEN FULFILLED RIGHT BEFORE HE DIED. He accomplished ALL that He came to do according to the Divine Plan. That's why He said "It is finished." He wasn't referring merely to His Life on Earth. He meant the WHOLE PLAN OF HIS BLOOD SACRIFICE. There was no need for Him to suffer at the Enemy's hand any further after He died.
---Gordon on 3/31/08

.seventhseal, People that come here frequently, know that indeed I post more scriptures on this site than most others do, including yourself. Also, when I post the scriptures I keep them in context according to the subject being addressed, and I elucidate the exact precise meaning. And if you knew God or me whom is sent from God, then you would know that it is not possible for me nor any other sanctified saint to corrupt the word nor mislead others as the unregenerate often do.
---Eloy on 3/29/08

Gordon: The Gospel is clear, Evil earthlings took Jesus into custody starting Thursday night in Gethsemane. They then proceeded to beat Him and scourge Him and abuse Him while finally nailing Him to a Cross where He died on Friday. They put Him in a tomb guarded by Centurians and on Sunday Morning, after they had held Him for 3 days and 3 nights He came forth and they had no more power to hold Him anymore. Amen.
---SeventhSeal on 3/28/08

Eloy: Because there is Light I provide Scripture. What do you provide but accusation? Look up the name satan in a concordance and tell us what it means.
---SeventhSeal on 3/28/08

SeaventhSeal, YAHUSHUA was not in the clutches of the Enemy for three days and three nights. Before He died, He said "...It is FINISHED.". He said that AFTER "knowing that ALL THINGS WERE ACCOMPLISHED". (John 19:28,29) At Death, He descended to Paradise to "preach the Good News" to the Saints in Paradise and to set them free. It was NOT to be tormented by Satan for YAHUSHUA already paid the Price BEFORE dying. Many Saints were resurrected when He died. Matthew 27:50-52.
---Gordon on 3/28/08

Trey, I will be responding soon. Btw, how have you been?
---Kella3336 on 3/28/08

.seventhseal, because there is no light in you, you will say whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 3/28/08

Gordon: Get a Strongs Concordance and look up the words "Kardia" and "Ge" which have been mistranslated to say "in the heart of the Earth"

Kardia and Ge together translate to "in the clutches of earthly hearts of this world". This started Thursday Night in Gethsemane where the Wicked Hearts grabbed hold of Him and had control for 3 days and 3 nights... until Resurrection morning.
---SeventhSeal on 3/27/08

Eloy: Quick lesson, Mat3:16 "..the heavens were opened unto Him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him" Jesus recieved the Holy Spirit and then after resurrection gave a portion to His Disciples.

John16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth, It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you, but if I depart, I will send Him unto you"

I present scripture, you post undermining opinion.
---SeventhSeal on 3/27/08

Eloy- I totally understand what you are saying. I believe in the two separate ascensions. Remember the blind man who said, "I only know one thing, I was blind but now I see."
I too only know one thing: I was a sinner, now I am saved and forgiven by the shed blood of Jesus and Jesus now sits at the right hand of the Father ever living to make intercession for me (Hebrews).
---Donna on 3/27/08

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Jesus Christ (YAHUSHUA) went to the Paradise side of what is now Hell when He died. Paradise was located WITHIN the Earth. That is why YAHUSHUA stated that He would be "in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights, as Jonah was is the belly of the Great Fish for three days and nights. Paradise was the Place where Pre-Resurrection Saints went to at Death. Then, AFTER YAHUSHUA's Resurrection, Saints began to go directly to Heaven up Above. YAHUSHUA went to BOTH Paradise and Heaven.
---Gordon on 3/27/08

It truly is sad to see so many people corrupting the simplicity of God's word and attaching all manner of falsehood to his word here. I have talked to children whom have a clearer discernment and know Jesus' words than the unlearned adults posting here.
---Eloy on 3/26/08

you are confusing two different ascensions. 1- Jesus' Spirit ascended to paradise on Friday, at 3:00 p.m. when he died on the cross, and 2- Jesus' body ascended to paradise on Wednesday, being 10 days after his resurrection. These are not the same ascensions, but two separate ascenscions which happened one 12 days after the other. Please Read- Mark 15:34-37+ Luke 23:43-46+ John 19:30+ 20:1,19,26+ 21:3,4+ Luke 24:50-53.
---Eloy on 3/26/08

.seventhseal, you are confused, for the breath of Jesus IS the Holy Ghost: "And when he had said this, he breathed upon, and said to them, Receive you all the Holy Ghost: whose soever sins you all disregard, they are disregarded to them: whose soever you all regard, they are retained." John 20:22,23.
---Eloy on 3/27/08

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.donna, you will believe whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 3/27/08

Luke 16:22 .. beggar died, carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom.. rich man also died, was buried. In hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, Lazarus in his bosom.

"Moderator - As one can see, Abraham's bosom and hell are NOT the same thing."

---Michelle on 3/26/08

Eloy: Verily I say to you today, that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and said "WE do not speak on our own behalf" That "WE" was Jesus and the Holy Spirit that came upon Him at baptism that spoke to Nicodemus. The Holy Spirit was given back to God to keep and not necessarily in Heaven. Do not confuse this with the breath that leaves you when you die.
---SeventhSeal on 3/26/08

#2. Jesus didn't go to heaven right after he died because when he seen Mary, he told her to touch him not because he hadn't ascended onto his Father yet. Before he ascended up into heaven, he went to hell to show Satan that he had lost. Ephesians 4:9 says, Now that he has ascended what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth. No one knows the time or the actual date when Christ died or when he arose. No one is that old.
---Rebecca_D on 3/26/08

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# 1. Jesus told us in his word that he will go and prepare a place for us. The thief on the cross said to Jesus, Lord remember me when thou comest into thy Kingdom. Jesus is preparing a place for us to rest with him for all eternity. So how can Jesus prepare a place for us if people are in it already? Jesus hasn't come into his Kingdom yet. For his Kingdom hasn't come down, so the thief isn't in the Kingdom.
---Rebecca_D on 3/26/08

Eloy-how do you know it was 3pm? Is that United States time? or Israel time?(joking.
I know the difference between the 2 ascentions but I disagree with you about the second one. The second ascention was when Jesus went to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. The first was when he was crucified, He said to the thief, Today you shall be with me in Paradise." The second ascension He went to be with the Father and rules and reigns with the Father in Glory.
---Donna on 3/26/08

Paradise was the Section within the Earth where the Believers and Saints went to BEFORE the Death of YAHUSHUA. The place that is ALL Tormenting Hell now, was partly Paradise, but with a "Great Gulf" between the Two Sides to keep them separate so no one could cross from one side to the Other. See the Story of "The rich man and Lazarus". After the Resurrection of YAHUSHUA, all Saints go directly UP to the Presence of GOD. And ALL territory under the Earth's surface is Hell.
---Gordon on 3/26/08

.donna, I will try not to sound sacastic: Jesus does not lie, paradise is heaven,
Eloy-too late, you do sound sarcastic, but I am laughing over here. I know paradise is heaven, it's the city that surrounds heaven all the way around the throne, up one side and down another. Sometimes it's hard to explain in the natural revelation knowledge. The mind of man can't understand supernatural things of God (1 Corinthians). So I apologize for not explaining what I've seen and heard. (((huggs everyone)))
---Donna on 3/26/08

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I) Some interesting facts have been presented that lead to some interesting questions:

1) Christ did tell Mary that He had not yet ascended.
2) The bible does say that the Spirit returns to God.
---Ryan_Z on 3/26/08

3) If Christ was only Spirit then He was not entirely man and would not have been an acceptable sacrafice to pay the sin debt of man.
4) If Christ's soul ascended to heaven upon His death then that would make the bible inconsistent and fallible.
5) If I tell someone, "I tell you this today..." does it mean that whatever I am telling them occurs on that day? Or does the use of the word 'Today' impart a more serious and sincere tone to the statement?
---Ryan_Z on 3/26/08

Cindy, I am no SDA, and I disagree with many of their doctrinal positions, however, on this issue they make a good point. The position that:

"This verse is manipulated by SDA's as a ploy to try to make us accept Ellen's false doctrine."

Could very easily be truned on you. Is it possible that the translators of the KJV and other heavily catholic and protestant translations could have manipulated this verse as a ploy to prove their pre-conceived doctrines?

---Ryan_Z on 3/26/08

.donna, I will try not to sound sacastic: Jesus does not lie, paradise is heaven, or do you think the man's corpse lying in his grave is paradise?
---Eloy on 3/26/08

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.donna, you are confusing two different ascensions. 1- Jesus' Spirit ascended to paradise on Friday, at 3:00 p.m. when he died on the cross, and 2- Jesus' body ascended to paradise on Wednesday, being 10 days after his resurrection. These are not the same ascensions, but two separate ascenscions which happened one 12 days after the other. Please Read- Mark 15:34-37+ Luke 23:43-46+ John 19:30+ 20:1,19,26+ 21:3,4+ Luke 24:50-53.
---Eloy on 3/26/08

It makes no sense to corrupt the word by wrongly saying, Jesus said "I say to you today,..., rather than the truth, "I say to you, Today...", because that would wrongly go without affirming the man's plea. They both knew that "TODAY" they both will depart the land of the living, therefore the sentence demands the emphasis to be "Today" you will be with me in my Kingdom of heaven not of this world, and not some other future date.
---Eloy on 3/26/08


To answer your question read 2nd Corinthians:

2cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, * (whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Here Paul uses Paradise and Heaven interchangably.

Hope that helps.
---trey on 3/25/08

Dr Rich ... You say greek had no punctuation, and then you go and insert your own!!
Something strange there!!
Why would Jesus make the point that He was saying that "today"? Everone knew that He was saying it then, and not later, or earlier.
It's the usual thing you know, to speak at the time you speak. No need to make the point.
---alan_of_UK on 3/25/08

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Today you will be with me in Paradise !!!
Jesus' words on the Cross. He said to the thief next to Him - "Truly, truly, I say unto you, today you will be with Me in paradise."

SDA's jump in here to say that the punctuation is in error. In the original Greek there was no punctuation, and it always had to be supplied by the translators.
This verse is manipulated by SDA's as a ploy to try to make us accept Ellen's false doctrine.
---Cindy on 3/25/08

Donna, Greek had no punctuation so there were no commas. The correct wording should be, "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise". Why, because Jesus did NOT go to heaven when He died. He went after the reserection. And yes, paradise is the same as heaven.
---Dr.Rich on 3/25/08

The truth is:PAUL said, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." And where is the Lord? Sitting at the right hand of God. Our spirit will be reunited with our body on resurrection day. The spirit of a man ascends into heaven, the body goes into the grave. It is resurrected when Jesus comes back and the dead in Christ shall rise (body and spirit are joined together)as was Jesus's body and spirit when He rose from the dead. He was our example.
---Donna on 3/25/08

Jesus said to the thief on the cross, today you shall be with me in paradise. He didn't say "today you shall be with me in heaven."
I've been fortunate to hear testimonies of several men whom God has revealed the difference between Heaven & Paradise. Paradise is the city that surrounds heaven. Not all who go to heaven go directly to the throne of God, they stay in Paradise if they didn't learn what they were supposed to down here.
---Donna on 3/25/08

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.cliff, you speak falsehood. As I haved already corrected you before, so again I say to you: The Holy Ghost is not an impersonal power or force, any more than any other person is, for not only is the "Counsellor" called by the personal pronoun "He", but also according to scripture (Please Read John 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7,8,13-15 very carefully) he both hears words and speaks words. Sometimes he is called Siloah, meaning "Sent".
---Eloy on 3/25/08

1st Cliff, GOD is ONE. Yet, He's Three-in-ONE. GOD consists of Three Persons. They relate to One Another. They have Relationship with Each Other. The Three are in Perfect Unison, Union and Harmony. It makes them ONE. The Father YAHUVEH is the Highest in "Rank". The Son YAHUSHUA so perfectly humbled Himself as a Man and perfectly accomplished the Divine Plan of Salvation that the Father could and HAS entrusted Him with ALL THINGS that YAHUSHUA ALSO may be Glorified WITH the Father.
---Gordon on 3/25/08

Eloy, Your comment shows how little you actually study the word. When Jesus said "Into your hands I commend my spirit" Spirit is "pneuma" air,breath so when He breathed His last breath(life sustaining force) it dissipated as it left His body. He breathed again when He was resurrected. You're making a mystery out of something obvious! Pneuma does not contain "personality"!
---1st_cliff on 3/25/08

S.S. ... You say my doctrine has serious flaw.
But I don't claim to have a doctrine!
I don't know whether the thief went direct or is still asleep. My point was that either way, it will seem as if it was immediate..
But why do you not try to explain why Jesus should have used the word "today" in the way you suggest He meant it?
---alan_of_UK on 3/25/08

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Heaven: where the souls & spirits of those who have died 'in Christ' go. Paradise: the positive side of earthly Sheol where those who have lived good/ selfless lives or became repentant prior to death are waiting. Hades: (Sheol-) which we modern people sometimes wrongly translate as hell, where those who lead morally abhorrent or very I centered lives are waiting. Hell is where the fallen angels were sent to, noone goes there until after Gods Final judgement Revelations 20:11-15.
---chrissy on 3/24/08

.sevednthseal, But Jesus did go to heaven the moment he gave up his Spirit, just as he said, and likewise so did the man hanging next to him, just as Jesus said. Where else do you think his Spirit went too when he said, Into your hands Father I send my Spirit?
---Eloy on 3/24/08

.seventhseal, you are confusing two different ascensions. 1- Jesus' Spirit ascended to paradise on Friday, at 3:00 p.m. when he died on the cross, and 2- Jesus' body ascended to paradise on Wednesday, being 10 days after his resurrection. These are not the same ascensions, but two separate ascenscions which happened one 12 days after the other. Please Read- Mark 15:34-37+ Luke 23:43-46+ John 19:30+ 20:1,19,26+ 21:3,4+ Luke 24:50-53.
---Eloy on 3/24/08

AllenUK: It does matter. It shows that since Jesus did not immediately go to heaven niether did the thief. It shows they rested in the tomb and that None that are dead will go to Heaven until they are resurrected with a real body.

3 days following His statement to the Thief about being with him in Heaven Jesus clearly stated to Mary "Do not touch Me for I have not yet ascended to My Father."

Your doctrine has a serious flaw my friend.
---SeventhSeal on 3/24/08

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And of course, it does not really matter!
If the thief waited 3 days to go to heaven when Jesus recurrected, or at jesus ascension, or is still waiting until we all resurrect, it will be the same to him.
Whether asleep, or dead, to be recreated, he is unaware, and so when he does arrive there, it will be to him an immediate arrival there, as if it was "today", the day on which he died next to Jesus.
---alan_of_UK on 3/24/08

S.S. Everyone particularly the thief,could hear that Jesus was saying the promise on that day.
It was obvoius when He was saying it!
So why would he say it?
Clearly it was part of the promise, not the date he said it
---alan_of_UK on 3/24/08

Gordon, All of God's purposes make perfectly good sense.It's statements like yours that make absolutely no sense.IE As a believer in the trinity you just said "God loves Himself and gave everything to Himself" He could not give anything to Himself that He didn't already have! You can't have it both ways unless you have one of those "puny minds" that you mentioned.
---1st_cliff on 3/24/08

dissers always trying to change God's Word, this is called Lying and no liar has any part in heaven. When Jesus told the man whom asked Jesus to not forget him, and Jesus told him, "Truly I say to you, today will you be with me in paradise. Then he said, Father into your hands I commit my Spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." Luke 23:43,46. Where did his Spirit go when this happened? Exactly where he said, to paradise, that is to heaven. Jesus proves that he does not lie.
---Eloy on 3/24/08

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All I know is that once I get to heaven, I'm not coming back down for any reason. Heaven is my home for eternal. To me it doesn't matter how I get there, just as long as I get there. And I know, that I know that I know I am going to heaven.
---Rebecca_D on 3/24/08

Bill: Jesus said "Verily I say unto you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

Fix your comma and ascend to Heaven after the resurrection of the Saints.
---SeventhSeal on 3/24/08

RebeccaD., Is anything too impossible for GOD? Can GOD not reunite the soul with the deceased body, regardless of it's corroded condition, to perform His Will, even if it doesn't "make sense" to us? GOD's Ways are not our ways. His Ways are Higher than our ways. Some things that He does are just not going to make any sense whatsoever to our puny minds. We just simply have to accept that FACT.
---Gordon on 3/24/08

Ryan Z, John 3:35 says "The Father (YAHUVEH) loveth the Son (YAHUSHUA/Jesus Christ), and hath given ALL THINGS into His Hand." That remains forever True.
---Gordon on 3/24/08

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I believe they are two seperate places.I was just starting a blog. More comments soon.
---Kella3336 on 3/24/08

Rebecca:: The confusion arises in the word Dead'The cessation of life is 'Death'.but dead to christ Has a different Meaning it means severance with Christ. But Dead IN or with christ means while in the state of death, the soul is still living in Christ,ie Not severed-but dying in the state of Grace in Gods favour viz the saints.
---Emcee on 3/23/08

Hmmmm . . . yes, so Jesus said "this day" the man would be with Jesus "in Paradise". And on the third day, He had not yet ascended to the Father. So, IF they were together in Paradise, on that day which was before Jesus ascended, then yes Paradise would indeed be other than Heaven where our Father is. However, it could include the *spiritual* state of being in the Holy Spirit while still in the grave.
---Bill_bila5659 on 3/23/08

Yes, Heaven and Paradise are the same place, but not paradise as we know it like, Hawaii or the Carabean Islands.

The American Heritage Dictionary: Description of paradise
Noun: often paradise The Garden of Eden

In fact the original word for Heaven came from the Aramaic language(the languge that Jesus spoke) and is pronounced- PEARDISA, which translates into Paradise.
---Antonio on 3/23/08

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At one time, the words meant different things. For example in Neh. 2:8 it deals with a forest of trees because paradise meant a wooded park. In dealing with the Garden of Eden, the word paradise is used because the word paradise also referred to an enclosure. Now, we use the words interchangeably to refer to the same place.
---wivv on 3/22/08

You can believe anything you wish that is your right. What my concern is what the Bible says. JESUS said he would come back to get us. Why would he have to come get us if we are already there?
---Samuel on 3/22/08

Gordon: That isn't what the bible says. A deceased person doesn't go to heaven or hell immediately after death. If the dead in Christ are in heaven now, and when a Christian dies and goes to heaven, how then will they rise first to meet Jesus in the air when he comes back? By your logic, they would have to leave heaven, go back into their bodies just so they can rise first and go back to heaven. That doesn't make sense at all. So therefore no one goes directly to heaven or hell after death.
---Rebecca_D on 3/21/08

I believe that there will be a new heaven and a new earth and Christ will hand over ALL to the Father. Heaven and paradise are not the same. People neither go to heaven nor hell when they die, they go to Sheol and await their appropriate resurrection.
---Ryan_Z on 3/21/08

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People do not immediately go to Heaven or Hell at Death.

Jesus told the Thief "I say unto you today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise."

Yet, come resurrection morning Jesus said to Mary "Do not touch Me for I have not yet ascended to My Father."

Last time I checked God is in Heaven.
End of argument.
---SeventhSeal on 3/21/08

Gordon, *Paradise is a place under the surface of the earth* I wonder which book you got that out of,it certainly was not the bible! *paradise is the extension of the tormenting hell* You best go down to the Bible book store and get a "Christian" bible. What ever you're reading is leading you astray! You obviously don't know that Jesus went into the tomb when He died and stayed there for parts of 3 days!
---1st_cliff on 3/21/08

People go to Heaven or Hell instantly when they die. (Some people's unbelief of this does not negate this Truth). Paradise was the Place under the surface of the Earth where the Old Testament Saints and Believers went to when they died. When YAHUSHUA descended into to Hell, at His Death, He declared the Good News and set the Captives free. The Old Saints were let out of Paradise and taken up to Heaven before the Throne of GOD. Now, the Place that was once Paradise is an EXTENSION of the Tormenting Hell.
---Gordon on 3/21/08

Kella,Heaven is where God,Jesus and the Angels are.Paradise is a borrowed Persian word meaning park or garden with trees!Heaven is a spiritual place,no vegitation there.In scripture it's Eden or the restoration of Eden.Earthly,for the enjoyment of those resurrected! Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. Psl 115.16 "The heavens belong to the Lord,but the earth He has given to man"
---1st_cliff on 3/21/08

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