You're right---you can't count saved jobs. You can only estimate how many jobs might be saved or will be saved if the government does something as opposed to nothing.
Or, if the government does nothing you can add up the numbers of new unemployed in the next year, and make an estimate of how many wouldn't be unemployed if the government had done something.
Either way, if you feeling secure and have enough money, and happen to be a conservative maybe you are afraid the government will get "bigger" and take some of what you got and spend it to make jobs for some of those that don't got.
I am afraid that might be true. I must be a conservative...
---atheist on 1/9/09|
Getting back to the blog subject, specifically, the subject of jobs...
Obama has been stating that his "economic stimulus plan", which in reality sounds like a total government takeover of the economy, will create OR SAVE 3 million jobs. What kind of double talk is this?
How do you count a saved job?
---ralph7477 on 1/8/09|
I'm afraid you don't get it...
I must be a conservative.
---atheist on 1/8/09|
"You think about something for 45 seconds and then fear (that the thought may have some meaning even though it is contrary to your already held beliefs) takes over and you dismiss it."
Fear? You're kidding right? I fear nothing.
I was a little sleepy so 45 seconds was actually twice as long as it should have taken to realize how dumb the statement was.
---ralph7477 on 1/7/09|
That may be a sign. You think about something for 45 seconds and then fear (that the thought may have some meaning even though it is contrary to your already held beliefs) takes over and you dismiss it.
The study does suggest that you are not a slave to your biology. So try five minutes next time, and then maybe ten. Work you way up. The world may not be as black and white as you think...
---atheist on 1/7/09|
"Die-hard liberals and conservatives arent made, they're born. Its literally in their DNA." Something to think about...
OK, I thought about it for maybe 45 seconds and conclude that it's nonsense. People can't help themselves when they vote for socialism because of their genetics? Yeah, right.
I know many people who had liberal tendencies when they were young and impressionable. They received a rude awakening when they got their first paycheck and realized all the money that was confiscated even before they saw a dime. Then when they gradually learn where that money goes and what it is wasted on, they miraculously grow up and determine for themselves how devoid of rationality and morality liberalism and socialism is.
---ralph7477 on 1/7/09|
The problem I have with labels such as "conservative" and "liberal" is that they are applied to generalize and demonize those think differently than the labeler.
It is not a practice limited to the "right" or "left", what ever those things are.
One study I heard about recently found that those with more "conservative" views were more distressed and frightened by pictures than "liberals". Further it suggested that this characteristic may have a genetic link.
Google: "Die-hard liberals and conservatives arent made, theyre born. Its literally in their DNA."
Something to think about...
---atheist on 1/5/09|
Atheist, I don't mind having this back-and-forth with you but maybe you should take a break because your posts are starting to veer into incoherence.
I was simply highlighting the findings of a study done by Arthur Brooks. Left-leaning columnist NIcholas Kristof was forced to lament that tightwad liberals don't walk the talk when it comes down to helping the needy with their personal finances.
The study didn't claim, nor did I, that liberals don't give or that only conservatives do give. It simply states that conservatives are the ones who help needy people more and are the ones who give more. Conservatives giving liberally... how about that.
---ralph7477 on 1/4/09|
People who complain about capitalism and companies making too much money and how one country is better than the next is not looking at the whole picture.
Capitalism is Biblical. Large companies donate hundreds of millions of dollars to charitable organizations every year. Most smaller companies, such as mine, donate any excess profits we have.
About China: before the we take the speck out of China's eye, we must take the log out of the Unites State's eye. A huge portion of the U.S. population is living way under the poverty level, the forgotten people, many living in the southeast and especially along the southern part of the Mississippi River.
---Steveng on 1/4/09|
If, during the millinium and under one government reigned by Jesus, does it matter who gets a job and from what country?
Is it wrong for a business to make a profit and to cut costs? Is it wrong to provide a job to another human being no matter where they live? Is it wrong for a person to work hard and receive compensation for that work?
A person looking for a job in the United States complains of job outsourcing is a person who is lazy and/or is not creative. Opportunites abound in the United States dispite the current economic conditions. If they cannot find a job, they should consider creating one.
---Steveng on 1/4/09|
Ralph: You are so misinformed. Most public school teachers in urban districts are liberals, like myself. But, we are not cheapskates. Most of the teachers in my school district spend from $400-500 a year on supplies not made available by the schools in which we teach. Furthermore, most of our teachers come from state funded colleges, and make donations to such schools as an alum. I know of many liberals who do make donations to their colleges, and most of those colleges would be the state funded colleges.
---Trish9863 on 1/4/09|
No, and hardly does anyone else. Except the volunteer parents who help teachers as aids, bring in classroom materials and supplies for schools that are underfunded by tax dollars, and engage in a myriad of fundraising activities such as bake sales and school fairs. (I am not so narrow minded that I believe only Christian conservatives do such things for public schools. These helpers are parents, mostly 'moms'.)
But to continue on your devisive pathological ideological distinctions, I could claim that it is only liberal loving democrats that support public schools with tax dollars.
---atheist on 1/4/09|
"Then he will say to those on his left..."
On his left. Which for you, if you had been seated before him listening to his words, would've been on your right.br>
This is of course nonsense. (His left is not "the left", defined according to Ralph.)
Without any stretch of the imagination can you argue the message would be to send back hungry illegal immigrants, deny medical attention, food, clothing, and shelter to the poor, and continue to make every effort to fill our prisons, (in greater numbers that any idustrialized modern nation in the world), rather than invest in education, drug rehabilitation, and "social" programs to break the cycle of poverty and second class citizenship?
---atheist on 12/31/08|
Trish, when the study refers to donations made to arts and education it is most likely talking about institutions like museums, the local symphony, PBS, and colleges that the liberals graduated from like Princeton, Harvard and the like.
You don't find too many needy individuals at those universities or at the philharmonic.
You teach in a public school which is not a non-profit or charitable entity. Cheapskates, I mean liberals, don't donate to such places because they can't get their name on a plaque or have a building wing named after themselves.
---ralph7477 on 12/31/08|
Ralph: Please explain how donating to education helps the rich. I teach in an urban, poor school district. I work in a state that is at the bottom of funding higher education. Please explain how making education available to those who are poor is helping the rich. I just do not get it.
---Trish9863 on 12/30/08|
Atheist, you do realize that Jesus was condemning those on the left: Liberals. Modern day statistics bear this out as was recently reported in the New York Times:
Conservatives give at least 30 percent more money to charities than liberals. A Google study has indicated that conservatives give twice as much as liberals.
Conservatives are more likely to donate blood and more likely to volunteer. If liberals and moderates donated blood as often as conservatives, the U.S. blood supply would increase by 45%.
Conservatives tend to donate to religious institutions which are more likely to help the needy. Liberals donate more to arts and education which favor the wealthy.
---ralph7477 on 12/30/08|
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. I was hungry, you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty, you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick in prison, you did not look after me.'
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
...typical emotional, irrational liberalism...
---atheist on 12/30/08|
Atheist: I question your self assessment to be an Atheist because you draw no hard lines which is more of an Agnostic position. Every former Atheist that I have met on college campuses is closed minded and sees Jesus as nothing more than a liar and lunatic. Because Jesus claims to be God and the only way to salvation they immediately discard all of his other teachings. Regardless of what camp you place yourself within, your ability to at least accept that there was a Jesus and he tried to do some good is an open door to your future salvation. I encourage you to keep questioning and searching, I enjoy your answers and look forward to your replies.
---TIMOTHY on 12/30/08|
SAG, your post makes no sense. You are basically stating that China is financing US debt by shipping back the dollars we spent to purchase Chinese goods. Several points...
1. China is only one of many countries that finance our debt.
2. China's whole economy relies on exporting, so if we and EU slow down purchasing, then China's cash dries up.
3. The main reason that China has so much money to invest is because the vast majority of the population possess almost none of it and live as peasants.
The only thing keeping the US out of bankruptcy is not China, but the printing presses in Washinton. Lastly, we wouldn't have to borrow anything from anybody if Government would stop spending, but nobody seems to care about that.
---ralph7477 on 12/30/08|
China is certainly doing better than the United States in terms of $$$.
If it wasn't for China, which has loaned the United States several TRILLION dollars, we would be totally bankrupt.
The United States' budget deficit is going to be somewhere around one TRILLION dollars next year. And where is that extra money going to come from ??? China! Of course.
The only reason that China keeps on lending the United States more money is that they can't afford to lose the markets in this country. Eventually, though, this bubble will explode. Just like it did with the dot-coms, real estate, etc.
In other areas, like living conditions, China has many things to improve upon.
---SAG on 12/29/08|
Well, Atheist, if you should ever come up with a rational thought feel free to post it. It will be a first. All that I've ever read from you amounts to typical emotional, irrational liberalism.
By the way, do you also post to web sites for Jews? How about Buddhist or Mormon sites? Radical Islamic web sites should be right up your alley if you are so concerned with people killing in the name of "god". Do you bring the idea of rational thought to the minds of those people? Betcha don't.
"Can't you just enjoy and appreciate this one? And try to do some good while you're here?"
And who determines what is good and what is not good?
---ralph7477 on 12/29/08|
Because I am alive and I have children, and if you didn't notice George Bush was president for eight years because he convinced enough believers that he was a believer. And we almost got Sarah Palin.
I just want to bring the idea of rational thought into people's minds who often seem to lack anything but arbitrary belief.
If that doesn't happen soon then it looks like we are all going to end up killing each other in the name of "god", just as many here believe it is prophesized.
Does everlasting life really mean so much to you that you give up reason in this one to cling to that fantasy? Can't you just enjoy and appreciate this one? And try to do some good while you're here?
---atheist on 12/29/08|
SAG:"I'm curious about why communist, atheist China seems to be doing so much better than the democratic, christian United States."
I doesn't have anything to do with religion...
But first I would argue that the idea that they are doing much better is not true. At least if you you look at it from the perspective of the quality of life for its people.
As a nation and an economy they are frightenly powerful and competitive: they've got cheap labor, approaching slave labor, no unions, no pollution control, an adundance of cheap energy in the form of dirty coal, and a population that is hungry for just about everything including food, and they are flush with cash because they have been selling they cheap goods to us.
---atheist on 12/29/08|
My test of atheism seems to be to you how many denials and or/ conditional phrases I put in front of the ideas I discuss.
Apparently, I can't just say Jesus said, I must say Jesus, that possibly imaginary person who may be nothing more than a made up character, but if he did live then the history of his life may have been altered through numerous translations and interpretations, and accordingly he may have said "...." and that might mean "...." in English.
But I am not about to called what could be only a character in a story or a real person with an unreliably documented history, a liar.
There is wisdom in some of the words attribute to Jesus. Why do you demand I deny that wisdom?
---atheist on 12/29/08|
Atheist: If you truly are an atheist then you are simply one of the most confused Atheists that I have ever met. Your philosophy is more of an Agnostic than an Atheist, I quote you: "Jesus may or may not have lived, and may or may have not done or said what is in those stories." No true Atheist would ever have any problem calling Jesus a liar. Time to stand up and take a firm side, we have and so would a true Atheist.
---TIMOTHY on 12/29/08|
Second part of my comment on China= between 1030 and 11 o'clock at night all Outward Bound traffic in the city stops. And from then until six in the morning the roads and streets are reserved for people(poor people) to bring their produce into the restaurants in town. This produce comes in a horse-drawn wagon, small motor carts, bicycle carts and some by trucks. This is some operation to witness and very telling as to the advancement of China towards the modern age. I saw two military planes that flew over the city at the same time every day. Everything but the main streets were blocked and hard to drive through because of the roadside stands and peddlers.
---mima on 12/29/08|
Third part of my report about China.
In the countryside great reports of confessing Christians and baptism, in the city I found some were very receptive others were objectionable to my message. The vice president of the college accepted the Lord Jesus Christ and told me how happy he was with his salvation. He also was the one who told me perhaps it was time I left China. My boss accepted Jesus Christ and immediately assigned me an interpreter to guide me and keep me from talking too much in front of members of the Communist Party!!
To equal the U,S.A. China has many problems to address.
---mima on 12/29/08|
I spent six months in China as a hidden missionary teaching English. I found no area where China is out doing us. They're great leap forward in actuality, is providing everyone with something to eat.
The government controls the heat in all apartment buildings. Government set temperature at 40 while the outside temperature is 30 below zero. I was in a city of 6 million people, above North Korea. In the city of 6 million people were 4 major supermarket( each covering a block). There were many restaurants serving minuscule amount of meat but basically mountains of vegetables. The average labor makes three dollars a day in a factory the others to make much less. Continued
---mima on 12/29/08|
SAG: The United States is not a Christian country. You are mistaken on that idea.
---Trish9863 on 12/29/08|
"You asked me what Jesus/God had to say about greed." Actually, you asked me what Jesus would say. I suggested that you go read for yourself.
"Why do you keep making things up about me?"
Frankly, you may or may not even exist. You could be a character made up by some fiction author who comes to this blog to practice writing skills.
If Jesus is just a made-up character in a story, then why in the world would you spend precious time coming to a web site to discuss an imaginary person? Do you visit sites to discuss the Wizard of Oz or Tom Sawyer? Surely, you can think of more productive uses for your finite existence, because as an atheist, you believe that once you croak, that's it. Right?
---ralph7477 on 12/29/08|
SAG-"I'm curious about why communist, atheist China seems to be doing so much better than the democratic, christian United States."
Please list the ways in which China is doing so much better than the USA.
---ralph7477 on 12/29/08|
I'm curious about why communist, atheist China seems to be doing so much better than the democratic, christian United States.
God hasn't failed either country. However, the leadership in both countries isn't following him like it should be. Instead, the economic torch just seems to be passing away from the United States and into China.
Maybe signs of a Great Depression in the United States and a Great Revival in China?
Any comments from the other intelligent blog posters out there?
---SAG on 12/28/08|
No to all those statements.
"If your argument is that he was deluded or misguided, then why would you give credence to anything he said?"
I have never said that I thought that Jesus was "deluded". I never called him a liar. Why do you keep making things up about me?
These are bible stories Ralph, Jesus may or may not have lived, and may or may have not done or said what is in those stories. He is a character in a story.
You asked me what Jesus/God had to say about greed. I provided an excerpt from the bible. It seems to me that Jesus does not consider greed to be good.
Do you read another message from this story?
---atheist on 12/27/08|
Atheist, do you believe Jesus was telling the truth in the following statements?
"He that believes on me has everlasting life."
"I have not spoken of myself, but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak."
"I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by me."
"I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."
If your argument is that he was deluded or misguided, then why would you give credence to anything he said?
---ralph7477 on 12/27/08|
Ralph:"Very good passage. I don't know what it has to do with businesses attempting to be profitable and not turn into money-losing enterprises on the verge of bankruptcy."
Odd you really don't need me, an atheist, to interpret that passage for you, do you? Unlike much of the bible and its stories, the lesson in this one is quite clear...
"The fact that you claim to be an atheist means that you consider Jesus a liar so whatever he said obviously can't be taken seriously by you. You shouldn't take His name in vain simply to try to make some sort of point."
I do not.
And I did not.
Why do you make up falsehoods about me?
---atheist on 12/26/08|
Not just the outsourcing of jobs, but open borders, various trade rules etc. have been used to bankrupt America. The access availability of credit and the stupidity of those without means, borrowing thousands, the lack of oversight of managers. It has been planned so that the middle classes will be robbed of their pensions and life savings, making a dependent lower class and homeless people, and a supremely rich and powerful elite. The question now is survival. Take your money out of the bank and buy food so that when hyperinflation comes you will at least be able to eat while they bring on the communism they so dearly desire.
---frances008 on 12/27/08|
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Very good passage. I don't know what it has to do with businesses attempting to be profitable and not turn into money-losing enterprises on the verge of bankruptcy.
I also don't know why you bothered to quote Jesus because you obviously don't believe His words. The fact that you claim to be an atheist means that you consider Jesus a liar so whatever he said obviously can't be taken seriously by you. You shouldn't take His name in vain simply to try to make some sort of point.
---ralph7477 on 12/23/08|
"Watch out! Be on guard against all kinds of greed, a man's life does not consist in abundance of possessions...
The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop.
He thought, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops... I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and I will store all my grain and my goods. I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy, eat, drink and be merry."
But God said to him, "You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself? This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."
---atheist on 12/23/08|
"Capitalism works for two reasons: Fear and greed..."
You couldn't be more wrong.
"How much is too much greed: Ralph, what would Jesus say?"
Why don't you open a Bible and find out for yourself what Jesus would say.
---ralph7477 on 12/22/08|
This is one of the few areas that I agree with Barack Obama on. If you are an American based company and you outsource over fifty percent of your work force then you lose your American tax status and must pay the same as an import company. Keep the jobs at home or move. I believe this to be true for any country.
---TIMOTHY on 12/22/08|
Capitalism works for two reasons: Fear and greed.
Fear motivates most people to work and struggle to acquire the things they need for themselves and their families.
Greed comes along and makes excess aquisition a "god". But that often creates excess in the form of cheaper goods and services that benefit everyone.
However, when greed goes to far, a few people end up with just about everything, and most with little or not enough.
At that point government must step in and find ways to moderate that greed...
How much is too much greed: Ralph, what would Jesus say?
---atheist on 12/21/08|
Yes, the economy depends on jobs. From a Biblical standpoint, jobs are a command from God. Read the book of Genesis. God worked to create the world. God created a man, Adam, and a woman, Eve, to take care of the Garden of Eden. And after sin entered the world, God told Adam and Eve that they would work for the rest of their lives. The modern economy follows the same pattern.
Outsourcing of jobs has always been used. The modern economy has upset the balances between a lot of things. Too many to list in this short blog. Now, every part of the economy is affected. Eventually, churches and ministries will be affected.
We need God's intervention to restore us!
---Augie on 12/20/08|
The word "greed" is being thrown around a lot lately. Please define exactly what constitutes greed.
How is it greedy for businesses to attempt to cut costs for the purpose of earning a profit? Businesses exist to earn a profit. Corporations do not, and cannot exist to provide jobs, healthcare and pensions to people. See the U.S. auto industry as exhibit A.
People are outraged when companies earn huge profits. Then the same people complain when companies lose money and have to lay off employees. So tell us, what is the ideal amount of profit a company should earn without being labeled as "greedy"?
---ralph7477 on 12/20/08|
A lot of jobs are outsourced from the UK as well.
But I dopn't this this is a major part of the cause for the present financial crisis.
As Phil suggests, the major cause seems to be the readiness to lend money to peoiple with little prospect of paying it back, of issuing credit cardss to minors and other who already owe a fortune.
It stems from the "have now ... pay ... oh sometime inthe future" culture in developed countries (Not only the people, but the governements!)
---alan_of_UK on 12/19/08|
If you don't know for sure if the economy totally depends upon jobs, why did you issue the statement and outsourcing has caused the recent economic woes?
Or again, have you already made up your mind what answer you want?
---katavasia on 12/19/08|
Out sourcing of jobs is only part of the problem. Balance of foreign trade and foreign investment in the US is a dominant factor dwarfing out sourcing. But what got us into trouble the most was internal US bad loan policy in Banking.
---Phil_the_Elder on 12/19/08|