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Do Unborn Babies Go To Hell

This discussion came up and the professor said "All" unborn babies go to hell. Is this true.

Moderator - No. Your professor needs to read the Bible.

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What happens when a person dies?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us that when a person dies, their spirit returns to God. In Luke 16:26 we are told that in heaven there is a great gulf that can not be crossed. This gulf separates the ones that overcame this world from the ones that did not until the great white throne judgement of God. (Revelation 20:11-15)

Ecclesiastes 12:7
V7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Luke 16:26
V26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot, neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

---Gabby on 5/24/09

There is an age of accountability where a person is held accountable to understand right and wrong and able to repent of their sins. Obviously, unborn babies never reach that age, therefore they are not accountable for any sin nature and would not be condemned to hell.
---Shirley on 4/23/09

Sorry, the answere should have gone to another blog. Peace
---MarkV. on 4/20/09

Purgatory 2: In the opinion of the RCC Purgatory becomes a place where works again are used to permit someone to enter heaven. As we know that all believers are saved by Grace through faith, no one dead can exercise faith while in that state. We were blind and needed to receive sight. We were guilty of sin and needed to be pardoned. We were separated from God and needed to be reconciled. We were dead in sin and needed to be given life. The whole purpose of the atoning death of Jesus was to accomplish this, to bring you to God. None of this can be done after someone dies a physical death. No second chances. It is now that the Lord is calling, do not wait for it will be too late.
---MarkV. on 4/19/09

It's inconceivable to me that someone would think that unborn babies go to hell. This person is utterly mistaken. I would like to know the basis for their answer.
---Shirley on 4/18/09

I have a very good friend who is very Calvinist, very Calvinist. And he thinks that those babies that are predestined to heaven go to heaven. And those that are predestined to go to hell go to hell. I do not agree with this view but I have heard him express it many times. It is as Calvinist(certain predestination) as any statement you will ever hear.
---mima on 4/18/09

I don't know if they do or not, BUT I would want to believe that they don't.
---amand6348 on 4/17/09

Nana, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. Those who love the truth are joined to the Holy Spirit in a way that many Christians do not understand. Conversely, those Christians who do not love the truth are not any part of the Holy Spirit, do not belong to the Church of Christian believers, and may be saved by some other dispensation, but not by faith. Their faith is in a different Christ, not the one who is part of the Holy Trinity. They may have been deceived by their parents, priests, teachers, etc but they cannot be held accountable for having been brainwashed. Hopefully, God will be merciful to them. God sent his Son Jesus to pay the price for sins, not sins done wilfully, but those we do not understand that we do.
---frances008 on 4/8/09

Mark E. you are correct. sin is a condition that people have when they are born. They are not sinners because they sin, they sin because they are sinful by nature. So the nature of a baby is sinful even though he has not sinned. And it is also true no one makes it to heaven in that condition. That is why I said that they would go to the Great White Throne of Judgment, not the Bema Seat of Christ. But when the books are open no sinful acts against God will be found. And because God is just and punishes those for the rebellion against God, He is just that He will not find in the book of works any wrong the babies have done against Him. Just as we are saved by the Grace of God, they too will be saved by His grace.
---MarkV. on 4/7/09

It would be unjust (and cruel) to say that ALL (even those who have not yet been enlightened, because they have not yet received the true gospel) have no excuse and will face the wrath of God. God wants "all men to be saved, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE of the truth." (1Tim.2:4).. Those who have not yet received the true gospel have not yet come to the knowledge of the truth, and God will not put His wrath on them because He wants all to be saved. Whatever their "lifestyle" or sins they may have committed, once they hear, believe and stand fast in the true gospel of Christ, and be baptized in His name, their sins will all be washed away, they shall be as a new man.
---manny on 4/6/09

But those who have been enlightened, those whose sins have been washed by Christ's blood, those who have become members of His body, if they shall fall away, they are the ones who have no excuse, because they have heard and received the true gospel of Christ.. they have become partakers of the promise, yet they chose to go back to unrighteousness.

On judgment day, when God asks them "why did you reject my words" they cannot say "we didn't know... we don't know what your words are", because they do. It would be impossible to renew them again unto repentance (Heb.6:4-6)
---manny on 4/6/09

MarkE (4/3/09)>>"...we know of God because He has placed within us a conscience.."

First, in your 3/26/09 you said "I believe that all men refer to all people." --But the Rom.1:19 doesn't say ALL MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. It says "so that THEY are without excuse", referring to men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

2nd, It is incorrect to say that "we know of God because He has placed within us a conscience." --Not all men KNOW God. The true knowledge about God IS IN the gospel (Rom.1:16-17). If we have all received the true gospel of Christ, then we should have the same beliefs,...
---manny on 4/6/09

...but the fact that there are so many christian denominations now, having differing beliefs about who God is --(some believe the Father IS ALSO the son (oneness), some believe in the trinity, etc.) -- shows that not all men have received the TRUE gospel, not all truly know God. Some have received "another gospel"..."another christ." (2Cor.11:4)

Neither can we say that some christians (because they do not truly know God) have no conscience. In any "denominations" there are (i would think, ALMOST ALL) good, God-fearing individuals... It's just that the gospel they received is "another gospel", hence the Christ they received is another christ.
---manny on 4/6/09

Why does satan want so many babies aborted? Jesus said a person must be born of the water then born of the spirit as to enter heaven. When a child is aborted it has not been born of the water.Is it possible that the soul which the aborted infant was to recieve is passed on to another? I hate abortion and I often wonder how a medical professional could perform such a discusting act. The natural way is miscarrage. However I do not judge women who have been raped or incest, or when the life of the mother is in question this is between them and God.
---George on 4/3/09


I submit to you and the group that sin is not so much of an action but a condition. Sin or disobedience to God lives in our very bodies. Romans 7:5 talks about sinful passions at work in the members of our body. Paul continues in verse 17 to say that sin and evil dwells in us and that no good thing dwells in his body. It came from Adam, but all men have this "condition" living in their bodies, even children. It is the new birth, the inner birth or spiritual birth that changes this and gives us eternal life. Without this new birth, we WILL surrender to the sin that lives in our bodies.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/3/09


I believe you missed part of Romans 1. The Ones you discuss in verse 18 have known the invisible attributes of God not because they have been enlightened, but because (as verse 19 says) "that which is known about God is evident WITHIN them". We know of God because He has placed within us a consience, His Laws, and a place for Himself. All these make us aware of His truth, His presence, and His place in our lives. If we suppress this truth, then surely His wrath will be visited upon us.

Studies made with isolated peoples in the Amazon rain forest indicated that their society was governed by the same basic laws as every other society, even though they knew nothing of the Bible or of God.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/3/09

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Mark E, in Rom.1:19-20 "THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE" doesn't pertain to ALL men.

Verse18 says the wrath of God is against men WHO HOLD THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. These are men who know God's truth yet suppress or hold these truth with their unrighteousness/wickedness. Things that can be known about God have been made known to these men (because God had shown it to them)(v.19)

They are those who have been enlightened, made partakers of the Holy Ghost and then have fallen away(Heb.6:4-6). These are the "THEY" who "are without excuse."(Rom.1:20) They are without excuse because they have known the truth but they chose to stay in them will the wrath of God fall.
---manny on 4/2/09

Mark E, the answer I gave concerning children was not because Scripture explains all the questions we have concerning children, it comes because of what I know about God. Because God is merciful and judges men fairly based on the light they have, (James 4:17). And babies don't recognize any light. So how can God judge them fairly?
"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." A child does not know to be good, neither do the one's who are retarded. The book of works could not possibly have anything against them. Everyone else loves to sin and get their just punishment. Even they, will not receive more then they have coming to them.
---MarkV. on 4/1/09

Gordon, Wow.what you lack in knowledge you make up for in imagination!
God breathed the breath of life into Adam and at that moment he "became" a living soul!Gen 2.8
Adam (the living soul) lived 930 years and Adam (the soul)died! Gen 4.5
That's scripture Gordon, not imagination!
---1st_cliff on 3/30/09

Alan8566 of U.K., Here's something else, that GOD revealed through a Prophet, which goes along with your explanation of what MarkV was conveying. And that is that GOD ("YAH") actually created all the souls of humanity, from Adam up to the last, before the foundation of the World. And, when Lucifer rebelled, GOD gave each soul the choice to follow GOD or follow Satan. And, whatever each soul decided then, is the same choice that they play out when their soul is sent to Earth. And, some at first chose GOD, but, later, turned-coat and went to Lucifer's side. As well, they do on Earth. I don't know of any Verse that CLEARLY backs that up in detail. But, neither do I see opposition. I don't find it a bit hard to fathom, myself.
---Gordon on 3/30/09

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"Romans 10:14 answer is in verse 18. They have heard. God has told all mankind. Verse 14 is a rhetorical question."
---Mark_Eaton on 3/26/09
Rather v15 answers v14. Verse 16 starts on Esaias and the people of his time. Of them is Paul speaking in v18. Even more in the same context from v19_v21 bringing in Israel and Moses and Esaias.
Ephesians 6:4: "And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord." The holiness of the believer's newborn lies in the 'Hope of Nurture'. Without nurture where would we be, without even a language?
---Nana on 3/27/09

Mark_Eaton: "Matt. 18 does not talk about real children. The context is an analogy of believers and children... Jesus is not talking about real children though."

On the contrary, he IS talking about "little" children. Jesus is comparing the attributes of a "little" child to an adult. Children are "innocent" - not polluted in the ways of an adult. The lamb is often used as a symbol of innocence. Jesus is comparing the innocences of a child to the hard nosed reality of an adult. Adults learn things never conceived by a child like building an atomic bomb.
---Steveng on 3/26/09


Please show me in Scripture where it says that "God will not condemn someone who doesn't understand" and I assume it is the Gospel of Jesus you are referring to.

I submit to you Romans 1:19-20 where is says "Because that which is known about God is evident WITHIN them...and God's invisible attributes have been cleary understood so that all men are without excuse". I believe the all men refer to all people. The truth is in us. God puts it there so all mankind is without excuse even if they do not know the Gospel of Jesus. Even children.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/26/09


2 Samuel 12 does not persuade me that ALL children go to heaven, only the specific child that David is referring to. 1 Cor. 7:14 is the ONE exception to the rule for children but it only applies to children of Believers. So David's child would qualify under this exceptional also.

Matt. 18 does not talk about real children. The context is an analogy of believers and children. Jesus uses phrases "like as", "such as", and "one such" to describe one thing that is hard to understand (believers) by using something simple to understand (children). Jesus is not talking about real children though.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/26/09

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John 15:22 is very similar to Romans 7:7 in that if Jesus had never had come, then all mankind would not have known their actions were sin and would not be held accountable for them. However, Jesus HAS come and all men ARE accountable for their sin, which the penalty is death.

Romans 10:14 answer is in verse 18. They have heard. God has told all mankind. Verse 14 is a rhetorical question.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/26/09


Thank you for being honest. Most people cannot find Scripture to back up their believe about young children going to heaven.

This question shows how much the world has indoctrinated our belief in God. From Romans we see a very clear picture: ALL have sinned and the penalty for sin is DEATH. But we agree with the world that God is Love and He must make exceptions, even for children. But we cannot find such an exception in Scripture. Our only exception seems to be for children of Believers. And that is why spreading the Gospel is SO important. Without this exception, the children of unbelievers even go to hell.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/26/09

First I do not believe the Bible teaches a place of unending torture for the wicked.

But I do believe the Bible teaches a place of death where we pay for our sins.

Since Babies have never sinned they will not go there.

Mark. Good points.
---Samuel on 3/26/09

MarkV, GOD never wanted mankind to sin. Just as GOD does not want anyone to perish in Hell. Did you ever read the Scripture Verse that declares that "GOD is willing that none perish"? Have you ever read that? But, did you know that, in spite of the fact that GOD does not want anyone to perish,.....There have been MANY, MANY, MANY of the human race, since the time of Adam and Eve, that have perished in Hell. Likewise, it was never GOD's Perfect Plan that mankind would sin. For, sin is what causes people to perish. GOD never intended for mankind to sin, and perish. BUT, because He knew that they would sin and perish, He planned to send His Son as the Atonement. He planned His Son's Blood Sacrifice before the foundation of the World.
---Gordon on 3/26/09

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Mark Eaton, you are correct in your answers. When I answered I only gave my own opinion and let me say not much support from Scripture. Yet in my heart I have to believe that God would be just with babies for the simple reason no works have been done by them when the books of works are opened at the Great White Throne of Judgment. I find it hard to believe God would send them to hell for no reason at all. God only punishes those who rejected Christ in order to live how they wanted, and those who did very evil deeds, and babies never got to that point.
So in my opinion only, all of the babies and children who could not physically understand, had to be part of the elect. Though I find no scripture to support it.
---MarkV. on 3/26/09

"What about people who have never heard the name Jesus? Your argument seems to apply to them also."
---Mark_Eaton on 3/25/09
Mr Berean:
John 15:22: "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin."
Romans 10:14: "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
---Nana on 3/25/09

Mark_Eaton: "Please show me the scripture where the "age of accountability" is inferred."

Read: 2 Samuel 12:15-23. We know David is going to heaven and he said that I will go to him, but the baby can't come back to me. This is an encouragement to every christian parent who has lost a child.

The question should read: Can a child sin willfully? Children are not separated from God as we are. They don't sinned the way adults do. Sure, they have a sin nature, but do not understand the willfulness of their actions.

Mark_Eaton: "please show me where it says that God is just toward children and gives them a pass.

Read: 1 Corinthians 7:14, Matthew 18:2-6
---Steveng on 3/25/09

Mark_Eaton, other verses include:

Deu 1.39, Isa 7.16. Both these verses acknowledge that children "have no knowledge of good and evil" and do not have the maturity to "know to refuse evil and choose the good."

Now the question arises: what age is the age of accountability? Jews and others say 12 or 13. But what does the bible imply? How old were the people that entered the land of Canaan?

Also remember that God is a just God and will not condemn someone who doesn't understand.

And don't forget the first and the second resurrections.
---Steveng on 3/25/09

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Gordon ... I think that what MarkV is saying that God does indeed make us as we are ... sinful.

And God extends forgiveness and allows into heaven only those whom He has chosen from before even Adam was made.

And that God has chosen that all the others that He made will be condemned because they act in the way they were made, and because He witholds from them the opportunity to accept Jesus' gift.

And that therefore they are God's playthings, made purely for His pleasure so that He can throw them into Hell.

And that this shows God's loving Sovereignty

---alan8566_of_UK on 3/25/09

Absolutely not. They are not accountable for sin. Jesus paid their debt and they are with Him.....and dearlly loved.
---Eloise on 3/25/09


Please be specific. I want truth, not opinion. I am a good Berean and check my scriptures for fact.

Please show me the scripture where the "age of accountability" is inferred. Also, please show me where it says that God is just toward children and gives them a pass.

What about people who have never heard the name Jesus? Your argument seems to apply to them also.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/25/09


I have heard these scriptures offered before.

The drinking age, the age of independence, the Bar Mitza age, and other ages still do not speak of that specific age in which God expects a decision on Jesus from you. I say that age does not exist in Scripture.

As far as Matt. 18 goes, the passage speaks of Believers and not real children. Phrases "such as these" and "like children" and "one such child" show that one thing (Believers) is being alluded to as another thing (children). Also Verse 6 is a key to understanding that these children believe in Him. Are you sure all children believe in Jesus?
---Mark_Eaton on 3/25/09

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I do accept and approve of the authority given by God to the shepherds, elders, bishops and teachers in authority over me. I pray and support them readily.

However, "revelation" made by any of them or any other believer must be confirmed by the Word of God and must not contradict Scripture. Anything that contradicts Scripture is false revelation.

Using Scripture as a proof, please show me where these Men or Women of God got their revelation that all children under a certain age go directly to heaven.

These claims are not made with fact but with emotion. No one wants to believe that an innocent child would go to hell, so we make up a fable to fit our feelings.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/25/09

Gordon, what is it that you do not understand about what God has said to us? I wrote down what God said, and you question it just like the sinners that question Paul. Why is it so hard for you to understand that God made the plan, that it was His plan and not yours or mine. That since He is God He can make it anyway He wants. Why does it have to be by your standards? Are you the barometer by which God must go by? I don't think so. What happens is that it doesn't fit into your theology. That is why you are so much against God's sovereign right to decree what He so pleases. "He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand" Dan. 4:35.
---MarkV. on 3/25/09

Gordon 2, It is not my word my friend. I read it from His Word. His Word is inspired. It is Truth for Christ is the Truth. I don't question it, I read it, I believe it. How can I believe the opposite? Many here do, just listen to their comments. I know many don't believe it yet, but if they want to know the real God of Scripture, they will have to believe it, and as I said before, He reveals Himself to us by the Spirit, because our humaness is still not redeemed and will try to go opposite to God. That is why we need to walk in the Spirit. If we walk in the flesh we fail God.
---MarkV. on 3/25/09

MarkV, What are you saying? That GOD PLANNED on, that He INTENDED for mankind to fall into sin? GOD foreknew that mankind would rebel against Him. And, before the foundation of the World, He, indeed, had the Plan to send His only Begotten Son YAHUSHUA, to die as a Living, Atoning Blood-Sacrifice for "whosoever will". But, that is not to say that He "intentionally PLANNED" for mankind to fall into sin.
---Gordon on 3/25/09

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"People, where is your Scriptural proof?
Back to the children. If one of the parents is a Believer then the children are called "holy" under the parental "umbrella" (1 Cor. 7:14) until they decide on God's gift for themselves."
---Mark_Eaton on 3/24/09

What happens if the believer dies (the umbrella breaks) just after the "holy" child is born? Do they become unholy? I rather place children under the umbrella of Matthew 18:10.

But for an example of "accountability" see Deuteronomy 21:18_21. The subject of the ruling is of "drinking age", (This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice, he is a glutton, and a drunkard.)
---Nana on 3/25/09

Mark Eaton, GOD has clarified through some of His holy Prophets and Teachers, in more recent decades, that babies and little children go straight to Heaven at Death. That is a result of a special aspect of GOD's Grace. GOD has given this revelation to His Church, through His servants the Prophets. Prophets were placed in the Church for reasons such as these. To help clarify these types of misunderstandings. If GOD says it, we can believe it. Just the same, when He says something through His prophets. Ephesians 4:11-12 and Amos 3:7.
---Gordon on 3/25/09

Mark_Eaton: "No where in Scripture does it talk about an "age of accountability". It is a made-up term."

So is the word "trinity." But it does not mean "age of accountability" doesn't exist, but it's implied.

Mark_Eaton: "If one of the parents is a Believer then the children are called "holy" under the parental "umbrella" (1 Cor. 7:14) until they decide on God's gift for themselves."

You have answered your own question. Sin is a willful act of rebellion against God of which an infant or young child is not capable. They have no concept of God, sin, Jesus, repenting, baptism, etc. Yes, we are ALL born into sin, but God is a just God toward children.
---Steveng on 3/24/09

Gordon ... I'm glad you asked that question, for I have not found it anywhere except in MarkV's gospel. For he will have it that there is NO FREE WILL
As he now says "the plan to permit man to fall into the sin from which he was thus to be redeemed must also extend back into eternity, otherwise there would have been no occasion for redemption"
But he will not answer the point that this must mean also "the plan to permit man to fall into the sin from which most would not have the opportunity to be redeemed must also extend back into eternity, otherwise there would have been no occasion for eternal damnation"
---alan8566_of_UK on 3/24/09

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People, where is your Scriptural proof?

No where in Scripture does it talk about an "age of accountability". It is a made-up term. Therefore, we are all born with the sin-nature wrought by Adam (Romans 5) and it is with us until we accept the free gift of God wrought by Jesus (Romans 5). Unfortunately, that includes children. As much as we believe the heart of God is love, He is also a just God and is not a respector of persons. He does not make special exceptions. Back to the children. If one of the parents is a Believer then the children are called "holy" under the parental "umbrella" (1 Cor. 7:14) until they decide on God's gift for themselves.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/24/09

Gordon, I have disagreed with you before as I recall and again this time. Let me say first that such a God as ours cannot be found out by searching. He can be known only as He is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit through the Word. The plan of God included the fall of men. For we are told that Christ was "foreknown indeed (as a sacrafice for sin) before the foundation of the world" 1 Peter 1:20. Paul even speaks of the eternal covenant, 1 Peter 13:20. And since the plan of redemption is thus traced back into eternity, the plan to permit man to fall into the sin from which he was thus to be redeemed must also extend back into eternity, otherwise there would have been no occasion for redemption.
---MarkV. on 3/24/09

Alan of U.K., Where in the Scriptures do you get that "the Fall was a part of GOD's Plan"? It was not what He planned at all. His Perfect Plan was that no one should've ever rebelled against Him in the first place. But, because He created mankind with free-will, with free-choice, which is another one of His Attributes of His Image in which we are made, He let each one of us decide to be for Him, or against Him. The Bible states that GOD is willing (meaning: DESIRES) that none should perish. But, He respects each person's wish, and He never crosses their will.
---Gordon on 3/24/09

Alan, you asked the same question the sinners ask Paul in Romans 9:19, after Paul had just explained that God by His will chose Isaac over Ismael, Jacob over Esau, raised Pharaoh to his position so that God could show His power in Moses, the very same thing I told you, and here is what they ask God, "You will say to Me then, 'why does He still find fault?" Here is what you said, "So how can we be at fault if we act as in accordance to our God designed nature, as directed by God?" The second question ask was, "Who has resisted His will?" Here is God's answer, "O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to Him who formed it, why have you made me this way?"
---MarkV. on 3/23/09

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God doesn't want anyone to go to hell.

When Jesus returns, all those dead in Christ will rise first and those living will be caught up with them. These are the people who hear the shepard's call. this is the first resurrection.

At the end of Jesus'thousand year reign, all the other dead will rise and will be judged from the Book of Life, according to their works. This is the second resurrection.

Blessed are those who rise in the first resurrection.

Where in the bible does it say that if a person does not understand he or she will not go to hell?
---Steveng on 3/23/09

MarkV. I do understand what you are nsaying, but it is incomplete, because you are still not addressing the point.

You say we all hate Christ ... because that is our nature. OK, but that nature is so because of the Fall, which was part of God's plan (everything that has ever happened is caused by the Sovereign God)

So how can we be at fault if we act as in accordance to our God designed nature, as directed by God?

AQccording to yuo, God does not allow most to accept Him, because He commands only the elect to say "Yes"

I am surprised that you as a clearly intelligent man, does not understand my oft=repeated question ... or maybe you are too intelligent to try to answer.
---alan8566_of_UK on 3/23/09

Alan, there is no contradiction. Those people at the Great White Throne of Judgment had an opportunity to receive Christ. No one made them not to. They hated Christ. That was their nature Alan. They were born with that nature. Why do you not understand that?
They had a choice, just like everyone else, to receive Him or reject Him, but their will was not free, but in bondage to sin. Their will is to do the will of their father the devil. Why can you not understand that? They do what they want and they will never want Christ. They are Spiritually dead to God. It is as if God is not there. They need an awakening by the Holy Spirit. Why can you not understand that? I am not yelling. I just don't understand why you don't.
---MarkV. on 3/22/09

Alan, first of all not everyone hears about Christ. Those at the Great White Throne of Judgment are those who never excepted Jesus for He is the 0nly way. No one is forcing them not to come to Christ. They just don't have faith in Him so they run from Him. They love what they are doing. They are doing the will of their father the devil and loving it. God does not make them sin, they sin because that is their nature. They reject Christ because they don't love Him. They were born that way. Everyone is born that way, but babies and those I mentioned haven't sinned yet against God so the book of works will have nothing on them. What is so hard to understand? That why it takes the works of the Holy Spirit to bring one of those lost to Christ.
---MarkV. on 3/21/09

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Mark ... You say I don't know why I am questioning your statement of 3/6? But I know quite well why I question it.

You said ... "Those that are at the Great White Throne of Judgment, who had an opportunity but decided to reject Christ and do what they wanted, will be judge for every single sin and will get what they deserve for God is Just"

That says quite clearly that those people had an opportunity but decided to reject Christ.

But you have told me elsewhere that we do not have freewill to accept Christ.

That is the apparent contradiction
---alan8566_of_UK on 3/20/09

Shawn ... I have on a few occasions suggested to Mark that there is a difference between foreknowing, and deciding, but he maintains that God decided, and that we have no free-will*

For God to select right "from the beginning" only those who He foresaw would later accept Him is a bit circular, and is like the story-line of "Back to the Future"

*That is what surprises me about what he now says
---alan8566_of_UK on 3/20/09

** My beliefs coincide with yours, but when told that the breath of life phrase implies that there was no life before the breath of life, I too was unable to be able to explain when the embryo becomes a living soul.**

Jesus was God made Human, was He not?

Therefore, the human body from the time of conception is ALWAYS a living soul.

To say otherwise is to say there was a time when JESUS was not a living soul.

In other words, this would mean that Jesus was in TIME a hypostatic union of God and something-not-human, which is manifest nonsense.
---katavasia on 3/20/09

Alan, you are questioning my sentence from 3/6/ and don't know why, Here is what I said, God will show His mercy on all children and babies and those who would never be able by their own efforts understand the gospel"
---MarkV. on 3/6/09
I would assume you would understand my statement meaning children and those who are physically handicap not able to think or know what is right or wrong.
Alan, the best way for you to know what God wrote, who He is, why He created, why He wrote the Word to us, Why He elected some an not others, why His mercy is not the same for each of us, is by reading the Word of God from the beginning and believing it, not questiong it.
---MarkV. on 3/20/09

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Do Unborn Babies Go to Hell? NO!!!

--Alan8566 of UK & MarkV:

Brothers, It seem the main misunderstanding of your whole discussion about the 'Predestination of God's Sovereignty' is hinged on the two words of 'Decided' or 'Foresaw' and which did God do first!

So, Regarding the Sovereign Will of God's Predestination. We know He 'Choose us' in Himself but did He decide this preordained fate of ours Before or After He foresaw us saved in Christ?

God is a Just God, Amen: Who foresaw us with the ability to choose evil & out of all the infinite possible out-comes He foresaw, God decided & Chose the perfect one which we now know as The Sovereign Predestined Will of God's Preordained Creation.
---Shawn_M.T. on 3/19/09

Exodus 33:19 speaks of God's justice, not an unfounded will and definitely no predestination. Paul makes it clear that it was God's justice at play, 1 Cor 10 Paul speaks of "neither" this and "neither" that, it was their either that brought God's justice to bear on them in the wilderness.
"For as many as receive Him..." excludes predestination. God's will? That men live in peace and love and brotherhood and that they draw near and remain close to Him.
---Nana on 3/20/09

Would you say a person that is kept alive by a medical machine a person? Isn't that person kept alive until that person is well enough to live on it's own?

This holds true for the infant in the womb. It is developing in the womb until it can survive without the mother (the human body is considered a biomachine in many science books). The mother feeds the infant as the person being kept alive by machines is fed through feeding tubes.
---Steveng on 3/19/09

I agree, we're innocent until we understand why Jesus came and what happened when He died for us.
---Lisa on 3/19/09

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MarkV On 3/6 you said " who would never be able by their own efforts understand the gospel. ... who had an opportunity but decided to reject Christ"

Two things there do not fit in with what yuo say about Predestination, which is that God has decided right from the very beginning, what we will do, and you have said we have no free will ... so what is this you now say about "deciding to reject Christ"? You've previously said we have no choice in the matter.

Unless you address the question that I actually ask, rather than just restating yuor basic case without answering the particular query, it is not surprising that I do not understand yuor doctrine.

Ypu might try and explain what I asked on 3/13
---alan8566_of_UK on 3/19/09

Alan, there is no contradiction in my believes, their is confusion in yours. Until you get the story right from the beginning, you will always be wrong some place.
Again He says, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I have compassion. So then, It is not of him who wills, nor him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."
So Alan, All things are by His will, not yours or mine. Sorry to dissapoint you. "For as many as receive Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" Alan, the will of God.
---MarkV. on 3/19/09

Mima, Everyone after Adam and Eve that comes out of the womb, has life flowing in them from conception. You know, no matter what, whether the baby has a soul, before or after delivery, is no reason to call it a "non-living blob of flesh that is not really worth anything until the 'soul enters it'", as some here have stated. Satan takes ADVANTAGE of the people who think this way. Because, then, Abortion becomes "okay". While the baby is growing in it's Mommy's womb, LEAVE IT ALONE and let GOD do His Work. Let the nine-month growth process run it's natural course. This is for GOD's Glory. All babies go to Heaven, even if they're aborted. It's the adults involved left behind that have to face GOD's Judgment.
---Gordon on 3/19/09

And let's not forget this event that babies still in the womb are "aware":

And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb, and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. Luke 1:41-45

This even happens with other mothers.
---Steveng on 3/18/09

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My beliefs coincide with yours, but when told that the breath of life phrase implies that there was no life before the breath of life, I too was unable to be able to explain when the embryo becomes a living soul.
---mima on 3/18/09

Mima, The baby becomes a living soul right when the human egg is fertilized by the sperm. GOD declares that infanticide is murder. What GOD says and thinks about something is what mankind should be saying and thinking about this matter. Especially we who call ourselves "followers of GOD".
---Gordon on 3/18/09

mima: "...does the glob of flesh become a living soul before it is capable of breathing the breath of life?"

Job was perfect and upright, a man that feared God and eschewed evil. He therefore knew about the things of God. After going through a few tribulations of his own, he did ask a question that implied that he had the ghost before he came out of the womb. Job: "why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?"
---Steveng on 3/17/09

---Gordon the question is when does this glob of flesh become a living soul. We have a record of how Adam became a living soul, Genesis 2:7,"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul" so the question some ask is does the glob of flesh become a living soul before it is capable of breathing the breath of life?
---mima on 3/17/09

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1st Cliff, The "discarded sperm" are indeed only sperm. They are not a living human being until one of them fertilizes a woman's egg. So, to use simple sperm, or just an egg by itself, is not valid as an argument for labeling undelivered babies, aborted or still-born, as non-persons. As if they were a mere blob of flesh until they are matured at 9 months and given birth. That is ungodly reasoning. GOD begins knitting the soul together, and maturing it, right when the sperm hits the egg. The discarded sperm and discarded eggs, as you call them, are part of GOD's natural Design. But, unborn, still-born and aborted babies are ALL precious souls to GOD, and they return back to Him, at their Death.
---Gordon on 3/17/09

Mark ... I raised the point about because your first comment (with which I agree) seemed to go against doctrine of Predestination which you espouse elsewhere.

So there is still a contradiction in your beliefs.

But if you don't want to discuss that here, it's OK by me.
---alan8566_of_UK on 3/16/09

Unborn babies or babies period do not go to hell for they have committed no sin. Jesus said "Let the little children come to me, for of such is the kingdom of God." Jesus also said "Blessed are the pure in heart for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
---Anne on 3/16/09

Alan of UK~ Keep up your fight for truth. You ask a lot of insightful questions.

If you want a site that provides tons of scriptures, and is written in a common sense way, please google "The Gopel Way." I hope you put this site in your 'favorites.'
From here you can type in words to search such as 'Calvinism', 'Original sin', 'repentance', etc. and they provide a vast amount of scripture to understand any Biblical issue.

I just discovered this site, and found it to be incredible and written in a way that is direct, thorough, and completely logical because of the vastness of scripture provided. Hope you find it as thorough and complete as I do. God bless.
---Anne on 3/16/09

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I dunno,sometimes people need a lesson in human biology,(bear with me)
When a man ejaculates he releases millions of sperm each one capable of becoming a human child ,it only takes one. What happens to the rest? Discarded!

A woman releases an egg (monthly) each one capable of becoming a human child,if not fertilized,it is discarded!

So,our chances of being here at all are
millions to one!

Only live births are members of the human family!
How God deals with "stillborn" is pure speculation!
---1st_cliff on 3/15/09

I will make this simple.
Unborn babies...
good or evil?
the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these
abortion is it good or evil?
evil so it is not of God
a kingdom divided against itself shall fall
a child has several guardian angels
guardian angels are holy
an interesting question, could a demon possess a mother-to-be and end a life that would have been Satan's nightmare on earth?
perhaps to prolong their time here in this world?
can Satan appear as an angel of light?
one with an easy answer that sounds good... like abortion.
Could a child be a soul who loves heaven so much that they refuse to leave for love of God and they ask and receive
we become as the angels when we die
---Danielle on 3/13/09

"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband, otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy." (1 Corinthians 7:14) So, if both parents are not in Christ . . . what does this make their children? But you can adopt them, in your prayer for them. *Pray* they will spend eternity with Jesus >
don't *argue* that they will (o: but pray (o: Make them yours in prayer for them. If they were born pure and innocent and close to God - - if they are close to God in His loving nature, how can they refuse Jesus when they make their choice? Ones of Satan's spirit (Ephesians 2:2) reject Jesus.
---Bill_bila5659 on 3/13/09

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