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Anti-Christ Is Coming

Is the Anti-Christ alive today?

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 ---Moderator on 4/23/09
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Exzucuh~ Love your humor! Anyways eschatology is the study of end times. I went to Bible college for awhile, but believe me, the HSU like you said is by far the best! There are so many man-made doctrines and creeds etc. (that can lead people AWAY from God, and into lukewarmness) in these schools that I just could not continue on that path. I'm amazed at all the ways you're spreading the gospel on the internet...I feel honored to chat with you! Are you familiar with Dan Corner of Evangelical Outreach? He is another one of my favorite teachers and reminds me a lot of your style. Isaac Livingston's another good one. I honestly believe there are more sound teachings on the internet than in the vast majority of churches!! Amazing day we live in.
---Anne on 5/20/09

I got my Degree in theology at the Same university as Apostle Paul HSU. LOL The Holy Spirit has been my teacher just like Jesus said he would be. And I am still going to school, probally won't get my diploma till I graduate and see Jesus.
---Exzucuh on 5/20/09

eschatology. You could enlighten me by telling me what that is, It must be the study of something since it has ology at the end of it.
But I have never discussed it or been a part of it unless I did it and did not know I was doing it. LOL
---Exzucuh on 5/20/09

Exzucuh~ I like your perspectives here concerning eschatology. It makes more sense to me than most who teach on this subject. I rarely discuss eschatology since there are so many different views on these subjects that I cannot make a completely sound judgment in this area. What you said seems very sound. Who do you learn from concerning eschatology...or do you seek the Bible alone for answers with no outside teaching influences?
---Anne on 5/20/09

Kevin3597, You're saying that the Dragon of Revelation 16:13 is Prince Charles. Right? Regardless, the Dragon of Revelation is not Prince Charles. That Dragon is Satan. Satan will give his seat of power to his "son", the Son of Perdition, the Anti-Christ. Whoever is the Anti-Christ, he will claim to be Jesus Christ, and he will call himself Jesus Christ. Will Prince William be doing that? I can see how the speculation comes about of Prince Charles with his two sons being the End-Times Unholy Trinity. But, Satan himself is the Father of that Trinity. So, that ends the idea of Prince Charles being the Dragon.
---Gordon on 5/19/09

Gordon -
I am not saying that Prince Charles is Satan, but that he is the (anti-Father) and his dragon in the lower right hand corner of his Royal Coat of Arms symbolizes him being the dragon that gives his throne, power and authority to his son, the anti-Christ. Just as the Father of the Holy Trinity gives His Son, Jesus Christ.

Exzuch - Rhonda -
antichristos: (Strong's 500), from (473: "total replacement") and (5547: "Christ, the Messiah")
Antichristos can mean either "against Christ" or "instead of Christ", or perhaps, combining the two, "one who, assuming the guise of Christ, opposes Christ and takes His place.

Rhonda - I feel blessed to make you smile.
---kevin3597 on 5/18/09

Very good points Exzucuh. I had put those passages down in 1 John so that everyone could read about the antichrist and the spirit of the antichrist.
---MarkV. on 5/18/09

Please people you are like people who are seeing who can tell the greatest story. Don't you realize the Antichrist is not a doctrine or a prophecy it is a reality. It is revealed information by Daniel, the Apostles, and the book of revelation. Anti- Christ means against
Jesus against his teachings not conforming to his doctrine, teaching contrary to Jesus.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists, whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
---Exzucuh on 5/18/09

If you teach Frog doctrine the message of the
Dragon you are Antichrist because you teach an Antichrist message, anyone with Ideas contrary to the teaching of Jesus is Antichrist.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.2 John 1:9 Whoever goes beyond, and abides not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son.

The key element of salvation is believing Jesus is the Son of God, and that his Father
sent him to save the world. Antichrist does not teach this.
---Exzucuh on 5/18/09

The Antichrist is a spirit that controls men a deceiver he does not care what you believe as long as it is not the truth so you will be damned. The beast is the carnal natural man the first Adam, he serves only his flesh and beast like desires of lustful things. He is condemned by his actions and needs fig leaves to cover them up. He lives by the message of the false prophet that preaches the Nomos law. The ceremonial idolatrous ideas and doctrines of men. The perversion of morality through false indoctrination, they worship by lip service but their hearts are evil. The only way to be free of Antichrist spirit is to be born again and have his mark covered by the blood.
---Exzucuh on 5/18/09

Kevin3597, Revelation 16:13, those spirits are "frog-like" and they are actual evil demonic spirits. It's not that the Dragon is "possessed" by the froggish spirit, in a way that a mere man can be possessed, it is that the Dragon himself is full of evil and has the power to send out and to send forth evil spirits that will do wickedly. And, the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet will be direct servants of Satan. And, they all three will work in near-perfect unison to accomplish Satan's goal. In such a unison as each Person of the Holy Trinity works together in perfect Unison. The Dragon of Rev. 16 is the same Dragon of Rev. 12, Satan. Satan persuaded one-third of the holy angels (stars) to follow him in Rebellion against GOD.
---Gordon on 5/18/09

Prince Harry means: "home ruler". He will rule at home when Prince William is ruling in rebuilt Babylon

needed a good laugh today ...believe people post absurd opinions ONLY to hear themselves

Kevin gives brand new meaning to MANY will come in my name ...and MANY FALSE ministers

antichrist is STILL AGAINST CHRIST (anti means against) ...traditions of men are AGAINST Christ ...MANY FALSE Ministers take MENS opinions about mens traditions foolishly applying to prophecy to DUPE their followers

MORE wild idea's given by MANY false ministers AGAINST Christ multiplying everyday as AGE draws to a close
---Rhonda on 5/18/09

Gordon - The Dragon of Revelation is Satan.

Agreed, But:
1.) Look at Rev 16:13, Is Satan possesed by this demon frog? The dragon here is clearly human.
2.) Rev 13:4 the dragon is worshipped. Those left behind don't believe they are worshipping Satan, but God, through the imitation Christ.
3.) The dragon in the lower right hand corner of Prince Charles' Royal Coat of Arms symbolizes the anti-father. (Rev 12:3) He being the dragon will give his seat (as king) to Prince William. (Rev 13:2)
4.) The false prophet is a son of the dragon and imtates Christ. (Rev 13:11)
5.) Prince Harry means: "home ruler". He will rule at home when Prince William is ruling in rebuilt Babylon.
---kevin3597 on 5/17/09

So, to take one example, the 100lb hail need not be taken as literal precipitation that falls to earth.
---Bobby3 on 5/14/09

I believe this statment explains why you believe that The Revelation has been fulfilled. If you do not take the hail as literal precipitation, then what do you take literally in The Revelation?

There are many approaches to interpeting Biblical prophesy. I observe literal interpretation and it seems that you observe allegorical interpretation. My approach is to see the events described as real events that have yet to happen. Your approach is to see the events described as really describing other events or describing events with hidden meanings.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/16/09

Bobby3 True you have to undestand the differences between the symbolic and literal. And that gets tricky if you don't have the Holy Spirit guiding you throughout.

But the facts are, this is yet future, when read with other scriptures, Daniel, Zechariah 12-14, Isaiah 14 (vs 7) the whole world has NEVER been at REST YET!!!! And so many more.

That will come during the Millenniel Kingdom Reign when the kingdom of this world becomes the Kingdom of our Lord and Christ. You see, Satan still roams around here...that's evident! AND God has not put ALL enemies under His feet! Still future!
---kathr4453 on 5/16/09

Katr: I believe judgments upon Egypt did happen as described in Exodus. I see where you're going with this...double standard, why one literal and one symbolic, right? First, different types of literature. Revelation is apocalyptic, so what Exodus describes as literal might be applied symbolically in Revelation. Second, consider Revelation 11:8, "...the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified". Wasn't He crucified in Jerusalem? John refers to Egypt's plagues and applies events in Israel's history to present circumstances, namely an impending judgment upon an antitypical Egypt/Sodom, which is Jerusalem. Jerusalem had apostatized, becoming the object of God's judgment (just as Egypt was).
---Bobby3 on 5/15/09

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Kevin3597, The Dragon of Revelation is Satan.
---Gordon on 5/15/09

mima - If my eschatology is anyways near correct then the Antichrist is alive this very day.
He is. And to be like God, he MUST have his own unholy biological trinty. (Rev 16:13)
(Just like god is a biological Trinity)
The only people who fit perfectly and have the beast of (Rev 13:2) and whos name = 666 in Hebrew and English is:
Prince Charles of Wales (the dragon),
Prince William (the antichrist),
Prince Harry (the false prophet).
---kevin3597 on 5/14/09

Bobby3, just a quick question. Was the judgements that came upon Egypt during the time of Moses symbolic or literal? The reason I ask, is many of these judgements are very similar to that spoken in Exodus.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/09

MarkV: Thank you for the information.

Mark Eaton: "How can you say that these prophesies have been fulfilled?"

I would say Revelation uses symbolic language describe the events that, as John emphasizes, must shortly come to pass. In other words, the judgment itself was a literal thing that happened (in AD 70), but the description of it in Revelation employs figurative language that is typical of prophecy. In fact, you will encounter similar language when studying the books of OT prophecy (especially Daniel). So, to take one example, the 100lb hail need not be taken as literal precipitation that falls to earth. Hope that answers the question, MarkE. MarkV, any comments?
---Bobby3 on 5/14/09

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Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

There is only two seeds the seed of God and the seed of Antichrist, Jesus is the seed of God. And the only way for the rest to not be anti Christ is to be for Christ and be born again of the incorruptible seed of God, regenerated and translated out of their fathers kingdom Satan into the kingdom of light. You must be born again to not be Antichrist. Jesus told the Jews they were Antichrist, that they were of their father the Devil. An Antichrist cannot see the kingdom of God.
---Exzucuh on 5/13/09

Mark E. My reply was to inform Bobby on what I knew from my studies, and never gave an interpretation of anything other then how this view came to be. Now I posted where this theologies begin and who started them. Now if you have different opinions post them. Instead of asking what happened to 100 pound hailstorm, why don't you give us what your personal opinion of your view, what happen to the 100 pounds of hailstorm and I won't judge you on which view you hold. I was not arguing one way or another just having a discussion with Bobby. He is cool and is very willing to discuss godly things. Blessings
---MarkV. on 5/13/09

I do not believe Christians will see the Antichrist but if we do the way to recognize him is he will be the one who signs the seven-year peace treaty between Israel and her Arab neighbors.
---mima on 5/12/09

I agree mima. The Bible even says it will be a Covenant of HELL. This will be the time of Jacob's trouble, God being angry BECAUSE Israel makes this covenent agreement rather then Trusting God!!!

Isaiah 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
---kathr4453 on 5/13/09

Mark_Eaton I agree. Those still in the dark ages the Reformers did recover SOME light, but not all. It wasn't actually all recovered until 300 years AFTER Calvin, Luther etc. Bless Luther's heart though, gave the greatest on the Doctrine of Justification.

But these people WERE STILL (including Luther..anti-semitic, and it shows in their doctrine.

The two witnesses I'm sure they couldn't possibly understand (the whole world watching then rise from the dead) THEY spiritualize away unfortunately.

Now we have satellite making that perfectly possible) They didn't live by faith.( evidence of things NOT SEEN, But by systematic Theology and still do.
---kathr4453 on 5/13/09

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Bobby3, MarkV:

Let me ask these very foolish questions again.

Did I miss the 100 pound hail stones? I also do not remember any mention of the Euphrates drying up, or the earth quake that made every island and mountain go away, or the day that every living thing in the sea died.

How can you say that these prophesies have been fulfilled?

Even if you use RCC/Protestant/Reformation history to fabricate a solution that fits, when did the judgments occur?
---Mark_Eaton on 5/13/09

Bobby 3, here is what I know. I have studied this because I was once an RCC. We already know that the Protestant Reformers had one primary passion, To inspire sinners to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 16:31) and to obey God's Word above the traditions of men, Mark 7:13. Ralph Woodrow, In "All roads lead to Rome, said "The just shall live by faith, not by the works of Romanism, and the Papacy is the Antichrist of Scripture" it was a message for Christ and against Antichrist. People like Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John knox Ulrich Zwingli and countless others preached the Nazarene was the Christ, and that the proud Roman papacy was the Antichrist of Scripture.
---MarkV. on 5/13/09

Bobby 2: Because of this preaching hundred's of thousands left the RCC. The RCC countered first by openly burning Bibles and heretics. But this method only served to confirm that the papal Rome was indeed the very beast which would "Make war with the saints" Rev. 13:7. On Aug 15, 1534, a new order was extablished by Ignatius of Loyola. He founded the Society of Jesus, known as the Jesuits to counter the reformers ideas that the Papacy was the Antichrist. Two very intellegent Jesuits were asigned to come out with something and they did, by reinterpreting the prophecies. Luis Alcasar and Francisco Ribera. Alcasar came out what was called Preterism. "pre" points to the past. And Ribera reinterpreted the futuristic view.
---MarkV. on 5/13/09

Please add 3:
Two views had their beginning on the work of two Jesuits. The Vatican was happy, now people that thought the Papacy was the Antichrist, could now believe the past view or the futuristic view. Preterism has been a minority view point until this later years and is now making increased gains on people. Developed in the 1600's by Jesuit Alcasar into a full anti-protestant system. Preterism removes the "little horn" stigma away from the Vatican.
Futurism, by Ribera taught the majority of Revelation prophecy (from ch. 4 onward) as yet to come. Here the antichrist, applies "the little horn" the "man of sin", and "the beast" to a single, yet future Mr. Serpent."
---MarkV. on 5/13/09

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MarkV: "Bobby 3, thank you for your answers."

Thank you for the dialogue. I've noticed that I find myself agreeing with much of what you say on several blogs on this site.

"It's no secret that the following five teachings have become very popular, which I disagree..."

I also disagree with each of the five teachings you listed that characterize popular eschatological views.
---Bobby3 on 5/12/09

I envisioned the Anti-christ coming with great subtlety. I believe the Anti-christ will be a great problem solver. The Antichrist will probably be Jewish(Antichrist means Christlike, and his Jewishness would make him more acceptable to the Jewish community) I expect the first 3 1/2 years(of the seven-year tribulation time) to be a time of prosperity when craft will prosper in his hand, also I believe the Antichrist will lighten the heavy hand of taxes under which the Western world today labors. I do not believe Christians will see the Antichrist but if we do the way to recognize him is he will be the one who signs the seven-year peace treaty between Israel and her Arab neighbors.
---mima on 5/12/09

I guess Eddie L. Long must be the ANTI-CHRIST.

A few years ago I heard him tell people that he was THE WORD OF GOD, and that he was THE LORD OF HIS CHURCH.
---Rob on 5/12/09

If my eschatology is anyways near correct then the Antichrist is alive this very day.

The five teaching that MarkV disagrees with I believe to be true.

"1. All true Christians will soon vanish in the rapture.
2. Seven years of apocalyptic terror will overtake those left behind.
3. One sinister man-the antichrist-will take over the world.
4. The antichrist will enter a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, claiming to be God.
5. The nations of earth will attack Israel at Armageddon."
---MarkV. on 5/11/09

I disagree with number two. Instead I believe there will be 3 1/2 years(prospers) good years and then 3 1/2 years of sheer terror named in the Bible" Jacob' trouble"
---mima on 5/12/09

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The Anti-Christ will claim to be JESUS CHRIST Himself. The Scriptures say that the Anti-Christ will set himself up in the Temple (this may well refer to the common "temple" of today which we call the CHURCH BUILDING, all church buildings across the Planet, as well as the Third Jewish Temple!), and he will declare himself to be "God". Now, we know, those who believe, that is, that YAHUSHUA (JESUS) is God. So, for the Anti-Christ to call himself "Jesus Christ" is another way of telling the World that he is "God".
---Gordon on 5/12/09

The New Jerusalem is not an earthly kingdom as Christ said, "my kingdom is not of this world".

TRUE ..this world belongs to Satan 2Corin 4:4

Gods Kingdom is not of this world YET Christ overcame Satan in his world to qualify to rule earth

many dismiss Word of God and the RETURN of Christ to DESTROY the governments and religious systems of the world

when Christ RETURNS to earth HE will rule Gods Kingdom on earth
---Rhonda on 5/12/09

Bobby 3, thank you for your answers. You did say you were still working things out. And don't worry about me, I will not judge your stand that you hold now. I know already what Preterist believe and didn't need Kathr information and judgments. As you can see I am fighting this long spiritual battle in other blogs.
It's no secret that the following five teachings have become very popular, which I disagree:
1. All true Christians will soon vanish in the rapture.
2. Seven years of apocalyptic terror will overtake those left behind.
3. One sinister man-the antichrist-will take over the world.
4. The antichrist will enter a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, claiming to be God.
5. The nations of earth will attack Israel at Armageddon.
---MarkV. on 5/11/09

Devid: "So this verse was written with John's generation in mind..."

I agree. John urges his readers to figure out the beast's identity, yet it would have been impossible if this beast was not to appear for a couple thousand years.

Kathr: "Preterists believe Bible prophecy was fulfilled in the past..."

I appreciate all of the useful information given on the subject of preterism. I'm sure it will help others understand some of the concepts we're dealing with when we talk about eschatology.

"Most preterists believe the following..."

I agree with 1, 2, 5, and 6. Also, I agree to some extent with 4. I disagree with 3.
---Bobby3 on 5/11/09

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JERUSALEM Pope Benedict XVI pledged Monday to remember the six million Jews killed in the Holocaust, seeking to repair strains with Jews over one of the most sensitive issues at the start of a visit to Israel and the Palestinian territories.

But his calls for the establishment of a Palestinian homeland threatened to overshadow the visit by putting him at odds with his Israeli hosts.

Benedict is using a weeklong pilgrimage to the Holy Land to reach out to both Muslims and Jews. He spent three days in neighboring Jordan before arriving in Israel.
---YLBD on 5/11/09


I do not follow your line of reasoning. If what you say is fact, that John wrote the line "If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number..." only for the people of his day, then every line of Scripture written quoting Jesus would only apply to the people who heard him then.

Sorry, I do not believe that to be true.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/11/09

The 70 weeks of years refers to the time between the exile and the coming of Christ. It is exact. Belief in a second kingdom on earth really originated in the late 1800's, it was never believed by the early church. I think it to be a false teaching. The New Jerusalem is not an earthly kingdom as Christ said, "my kingdom is not of this world".
---Richard on 5/10/09

Mark E. thanks for you insight. So far without giving me what you believe in the 70 weeks, and the one missing week. Daniel 9:27, "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week, and in the mist of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.." can you tell me who this "He" is? As I understand it and know what most most scholars think this "he" is I just want to see if you and I are in accord. Daniek 9:27 actually speaks nothing about a seven year period of "Tribulation" a "rebuild" Jewish temple, or any "antichrist." Am I on the same page with you? Blessings bro.
---MarkV. on 5/10/09

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The Book of Daniel is the key to understanding The Revelation.

Daniel was praying in chapter 9 for understanding after reading in Jeremiah that the Babylonian captivity was soon going to end. God gave him the prophesy of the 70 weeks. Sixty-nine of the weeks God accounted for, leaving the seventieth unexplained.

In Luke 21:24 Jesus tell his disciples that "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" showing that for a undetermined period of time the 70th week would not immediately transpire. Up until then, the apostles should have expected Jesus to return 7 years after he ascended.

The signs that the "times of the Gentiles" drawing to a close are in the minor prophets of the O.T.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/10/09

David - *no future antichrist* - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 says other wise, unless you believe that Jesus has already come.
Also, the calculation is for 2 things:
1.) a man (not the man or antichrist)
2.) it is the number of his father (Revelation 14:1)
visit my profile for further study.
According to the Hebrew/English gematria - a=1,b=2,c=3,d=4,e=5,f=6,g=7,h=8,i=9, j=10,k=20,l=30,etc....
Prince Charles of Wales = 666 (the dragon), Prince William (the antichrist) (he already has the 666 symbol on his forehead), Prince Harry (the false prophet)
---kevin3597 on 5/10/09

"This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666." (Revelation 13:18).

John's readers back in the day were probably hard at work studying scripture just like you, and I assure you they all wanted an answer to the mystery. But don't you see? The answer is in the question.

"If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number..."

So this verse was written with John's generation in mind. Point is this, the antichrist was a man that lived in John's day, probably Nero Caesar. There is no future antichrist coming. Now get over it, move on, and live productive lives.
---Devid on 5/10/09

The Antichrist is definitely against Christ. But 'anti' has many meanings if you look it up in a good dictionary. One way the Antichrist is going to deceive many of us, is that he will pretend to be working FOR Christ. In reality, the end game if against Christ and His Kingdom. The way to spot him is to see how he protects bible believing Christians. If suddenly they start disappearing, together with others (Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists etc) then you know he is already working. Such people are already being locked away under 'immigration violations' which is really not that.
---frances008 on 5/9/09

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anti is against

anyone can be against Christ

any idea or tradition of men can be antichrist

traditions of men APART from Holy Word of God ...many christian religious systems traditions are handed down by generations that are not from God yet these churches continue to go AGAINST Christ by participating in their own traditions honoring and worshiping heathen idea's they have merged into "christianity"

beast and false prophet are what the end times will bring mankind - obviously against Christ

religious christianity dismisses Satan as god of this world 2Corin 4:4 blinded to truth and prophecy of end times
---Rhonda on 5/9/09

Thanks Mark.

It is easy to misunderstand what another person says ... it is happening here all the time, and I have been guilty as well.

I suppose I reacted too strongly to it.

If in future you or anyone else misunderstand what I have said, I will try to point it out in a gentler way.

Yes, peace!
---alan8566_of_UK on 5/9/09

Ok, Alan, I give up, I surrender, whatever you say of me is correct. Ok? You are right and I am wrong. I hope this does it with our discussions. I don't have the time to dig into what was said so many times. It takes lots of my time and really I don't care to waste it on this subject of whether I said something or not. Thank you again, and I will be careful with your questions next time. peace
---MarkV. on 5/8/09

Mark E. can you share with us what you understand on not only the Day of our Lord, but what you know of the Tribulation period? I have shared some things with Bobby. He shared his view and I shared some of mine and why, though it would take a lot of post to really give a full account and passages to go with why I believe as I do. Thanks Mark, blessings to you
---MarkV. on 5/8/09

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Replacement Theology teaches the Church has replaced Israel. The term Replacement Theology teaches The Church supersedes teaching God has set aside Israel and made the Church New Israel, the new and improved people of God.
R T is associated with Reformed Theology, the brand of theology historically linked to John Calvin. R T closely associated with amillennialism, has the eschatological view with a spiritualized (rather than literal-historical) interpretation of the prophetic Scriptures which leading to full-blown anti-Semitism in Reformed churches today.

"Preterism", is due to Postmillennial Christian Reconstruction being promoted in Reformed churches, although it claims to avoid full-blown, consistent preterism.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/09

MarkV ... You say you "have trouble" with me, as well as with others.

I try to be as clear as possible, but as well as misunderstanding what I (and others) say, you appear then to be unable to accept our corrections.

Thus I said to you on another blog: "I never said that" to 3 things that you claimed I had said, and "where did I say that?" for 2 other alleged statements.

But you did not acknowledge that I hadn't said those things, and even went on with further misquotations.

I hope you are able to take this on board ... when we say something, we mean what we say, and not something else!
---alan8566_ofUK on 5/8/09

Continue..Please Continue....

If you'd like to know if your church leaders believe in Replacement Theology, ask them!

Ask them, very humbly and sincerely, if they believe that God rejected Israel when Israel rejected His Son in the first century and that as a result, He has no future plan or purpose for the Jewish nation.

This was the predominant view since the time of Augustine.

Sadly, this view is becoming more predominate in theChurch today. We know apostasy is more predominate today as ever before. This doctrine is now being intorduced to many denominations and their seminaries.

This is anti-Christ teaching! Please study to show yourselves approved...RIGHTLY dividing the Word of Truth.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/09


I had thought that you and Bobby were in agreement on the Tribulation already happening. My points were that it would be impossible to miss the events portrayed in the Revelation, unless you believe them to all be symbolic.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/8/09

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** Well I believe there are many, many Antichrists, one being my x husband
---Elvira on 4/29/09**

I'd be curious to hear what Elvira's ex-husband has to say.
---katavasia on 5/8/09

Mark E, welcome aboard, I see you have a lot to say on this matter and you happen to put my name and Bobbies in your answer. What is your point? If I can ask? I did not get what you were trying to say. As I told Shawn T. I read many post but do not get what the point is. Again, I can say it might be my education, or lack of understand what people write sometimes. I have trouble with Alan also.
Can you give us your opinion on this subject if its ok with you? Peace.
---MarkV. on 5/7/09

Bobby3, MarkV:

Did I miss the 100 pound hail stones? I also do not remember any mention of the Euphrates drying up, or the earth quake that made every island and mountain go away, or the day that every living thing in the sea died.

I do not believe we could have missed the seven bowl judgments. Trumpets, maybe they could be mistaken for something else but the bowls, wow, no way these things could be missed. These are massive judgments, unlike any natural disaster we can imagine. I believe there also is time involved with these judgements. What if each one of them took 5 months time? Can you imagine not having any fresh water for 5 months? Or broiling heat for 5 months? Or total darkness for 5 months?
---Mark_Eaton on 5/7/09

Cont Please..

Preterists hold to a postmillennial vision in which the church becomes the new Israel bringing in the Kingdom on earth.

Most preterists believe the following:

1. Nero was the Antichrist.

2. The Tribulation Period is already over AD 66-70.

3. Christ returned in the clouds in AD 70 to witness the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army.

4. God replaced Old Testament Israel with the Church. Therefore, all the biblical promises to Israel belong to the Church.

5. Armageddon already happened in AD 70.

6. Satan is already bound in the abyss, Revelation 20 has been fulfilled and we're already in the Millennium.
---kathr4453 on 5/7/09

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Bobby 3, thanks for discussing this subject with me. I can tell when someone wants to discuss something and those who want to fight. When they want to fight they throw the kitchen sink at you.
I too was under the believe as you for many years on the subject until one day on a radio show someone said that the left behind books were false, and I decided to take a closer look.
Let me also say that there are amazing parrallels between the history of Israel and the history of Jesus Christ. Between the Old Testament Abraham's Seed, and the New testament's Seed. Which makes a big difference when you get to Revelation.
---MarkV. on 5/7/09

Preterists believe Bible prophecy was fulfilled in the past. They view the major prophetic passages of Scripture, such as the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Revelation, as already fulfilled.

Consistent Preterists with some Preterists, hold that all Bible prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. They view this event as the Second Coming of Christ and reject any belief in a future return of Christ. They deny a future bodily resurrection of believers and a literal return of Christ to earth.

Extreme preterists believe we are already in the New Heavens! Their view is not only ludicrous, but it is also heretical and places them outside the parameters of biblical orthodoxy.
---kathr4453 on 5/7/09

MarkV: "Thanks for asking me for my opinion and hope to hear what you have to say..."

I appreciate your responses and respect your perspective on these various matters. As for my own views on eschatology, until relatively recently I held the very popular pre-millenialist/dispensationalist view on the end times, which corresponds to what 'Left Behind' describes. Ignorant of the existence of other views, I was curious when I encountered the preterism, which is a view I currently hold. Far from being an expert on eschatology, I will readily admit that I'm still trying to work things out, but preterism (not to be confused with 'full/hyper preterism') so far makes the most sense.
---Bobby3 on 5/6/09

Bobby3, MarkV,

Paul said in 2nd Thess, for Christians not to be shaken in mind,or TROUBLED that the Day of the Lord was Present. The original Text is Day of the Lord...not The Day of Christ.

When reviewing this, also knowing the Correct Translation Day of the Lord IS CORRECT because NO Christian would be shaken of Mind or troulbed that the Day of Christ is present. The Rapture of the Church will be as the twinkling of an eye, it's an event...not a long drawn out process, and certainly nothing to be feared by Christians.

The Day of the Lord however BEGINS is the 7 year Tribulation, of which these Christians were told had begun.

This false doctrine is being preached today...!!!
---kathr4453 on 5/4/09

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Bobby3, Those Letters that John wrote to the 7 Churches were from the Lord YAHUSHUA (JESUS). The whole Bible is the Word of GOD (save for the Verses where the Apostle Paul "speaks as a man". So, the word "soon", as written in Revelation, is of GOD's Vantage Point. When GOD says "soon", then we need to act on it as being "soon". For, even then, no one knows when they may die. And, that would be THEIR "soon".
---Gordon on 5/4/09

Mark Eaton - If you can show me a passage of Scripture that proves your usage of the 70 years, I would love to see it.
If it were possible, I would. I can only offer my opinion on this one.
---kevin3597 on 5/3/09

Bobby 3, thanks for listening to what I get from the passages in Thessaloians. I had alot more to explain to you but will stop so that Kathr can continue to give her opinions on my comments. Thanks for asking me for my opinion and hope to hear what you have to say about the rapture, the antichrist and the Day of our Lord. Whatever you got I will listen to. Peace brother
---MarkV. on 5/2/09

Bobby 3, Paul message was that "the Day of Christ" was not just around the corner, Something big must happen first. And to us Paul's message is clear: Before Jesus Christ comes to "gather" us, the "falling away and the antichrist must be revealed comes first." Paul directly and earnestly warned the Church not to be deceived about this very thing. He knew that many as then and now would be deceived.
---MarkV. on 5/1/09

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Cont please...

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.Matt 24..Rev..

Amos 5:18
the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

1 Thess 5: 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them..
2 Thess 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. (The Original TEXT is Day of the Lord) Not day of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 5/1/09

Bobby 3,

Paul is telling teh Thesselonians that the Church then being horribly persecuted and suffering THOUGHT "The Day of the Lord" is a DARK and HORRIBLE DAY!!! had Come....meaning the Day of His WRATH ... the Day of the Lord is...HIS WRATH...

They were not lazy christians waiting for the rapture. You have to read ALL of each book from beginning to end of Thesselonians to see Paul is talking about THEIR PERSECUTION and SUFFERINGS.
Paul is assuring the Saints that THAT DAY will not come UNTIL certain things happen first!

The DAY of Christ is when Jesus Comes to gather His Church....The Day of the Lord comes AFTER the Day of Jesus Christ!

WE are Children of the DAY.
---kathr4453 on 5/1/09

Bobby 3, concerning the rapture and the Day of the Lord were two things that came into conflict. And since the antichrist is mentioned many times by others as a person coming to bring hell to everyone after the rapture I decided to look at the Word of God closely on this subject.
I am now convince that the "calling away" and the antichrist come before the Day of our Lord. At the time Paul was talking in 1 Thess. and 2 Thess. the Thessalonian Christians had quit their jobs, stopped providing for their families, and were just hanging around, expectly waiting for Christ imminent appearance (2 Thess. 3:10-12). They also had a false understanding of the Day of our Lord when He comes to gather together His Church.
---MarkV. on 5/1/09

Bobby 3: 2nd: 2 Thess. 1-4, Paul clearly tells the Thessalonians to not be deceived. He says, "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you not to be shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us." First the "coming" of our Lord means the Day of our Lord. The word "coming" here means "Parousia" which means the second coming of Jesus Christ, same word found in Matt. 24:27, and verse 8. And so the passage continues verse 3, "Let no one deceive you by any means, for that "Day" will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition"
---MarkV. on 5/1/09

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I didn't read the "left Behind " Series, but I'm afraid many Christians (young ones especially) took these as infallable...almost like Scripture. They were, of course fiction, though based on the most popular end-times teaching. They may have sparked the interest of some non-Christians, which is good.
Sadly, I suspect some Christians read these because they always felt that the Book of Revelation was "too difficult to understand"

I didn't want to take the time to read them, but wondered how closely they followed scripture ( aside from pre, post, mid-trib differences). Anybody care to comment?
---Donna66 on 4/30/09

MarkV: "I decided to take a closer look by taking a study..."

Growing up, I thought the 'Left Behind' interpretation of Revelation was all there was. But, though many seem to be unaware of it, other views on eschatology exist. What happens to be your view, Mark?
---Bobby3 on 4/30/09

Larry, sorry about my post to you, I should have known by seen her name that you were posting what she said. Can you give your perspective on the subject? Thanks

Bobby 3,
I did the same and when I read them I was so convince that I bought one of the movies. I really didn't pay that much attention until one day on the radio a brother was speaking against the books and so I decided to take a closer look by taking a study myself and like you their stories are so wrong and Scripture clearly explains it if someone studies the subject completely. There is lots to be said about what and who the antichrist is and most of all "the falling away" and the rapture.
---MarkV. on 4/30/09


The seventy weeks are defined very clearly in Dan. 9:25, 7 weeks to rebuild Jerusalem, 62 weeks from that point until Messiah will be cut off, and in the remaining one week the prince who is to come will make a firm covenant with the many.

Can the 70 weeks refer to a future time? Perhaps, but I do not see it anywhere in Scripture. If you can show me a passage of Scripture that proves your usage of the 70 years, I would love to see it.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/29/09

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Mark V, I was responding with a cut and paste from Joanne who I suspect was not focusing on the word but the description of the dragon in Revelation 12 as the anti christ as opposed to an anti-christ.

This is difficult because a great deal of the discussion surrounds finite measures such as time of which God operates outside of those parameters.
The Left Behind books you refer have taken literal license to paint a canvas of the ends times for readers.
---larry on 4/29/09

Gordon, its true the Word of God reveals prophecies about the emergence of an evil "Little horn" found in Daniel 7:8, and a very much dreadful "beast" in Revelation 13:1, and lets not forget "the man of sin" or the "son of perdiction in 2 Thess. 2:3. I believe these prophecies are used to support the idea of a future "Bad guy" or person who will appear after the rapture who comes from outside of the Church whom many here believe is the antichrist. That is what is proclaim by many who teach prophecy.
If you read the passages you will find that is not so. 1 Thess. 4:17, and 2 Thess 2:1 teach that is not the case. Many Christians fully expect to vanish in the rapture before the antichrist arrives.
---MarkV. on 4/29/09

The Antichrist seeks the ruin of all souls and uses drugs of error and spiritualism and character assassinations to cause chaos. I don't know if you noticed or not but I have seen several people today that talk to theirselves and trees. That is abnormal.
---lisa on 4/29/09

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