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Can Women Be Leaders

Judges chapter 4 speaks of a woman, Deborah, as a Judge and a Prophetess over Israel. If God has not changed from the Old Testament to the New, then why do some now say that women can't lead when clearly Deborah and others did with God's blessing?

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Judges 4:1, 5:8, They had a synthetic religion, mixing Judaism with baal worship, that made for ethically weak effeminate men. This allowed for the rise of the monstrous regiment of women *1. Deborah rose to this position because of the poor state of masculinity in Israel at that time. 4:4-5, Deborah gave advice under a palm tree, and didn't lead, or even minister publicly in the gates with the Princes and Elders, or as did the Priests *2. Her only known prophecy consisted of singing a song with Barak, 5:1-31. In verse 4:6, she reminded Barak to do what God had previously told him to do. She neither ordered him to go, as he was properly Israel's Judge, nor did she direct the battle as he was General of the army *3.
---Glenn on 6/23/09

The concept that Barak would ask a woman to go with him was a sign of weakness, and she tried to dissuade him - Judges 4:9. Her ministry would have been considered to shame the people, and a curse on the land (Genesis 3:17-19, Isaiah 3:12). In 5:7, she says I arose, that is in contrast to Othniel, Ehud, Gideon, and Samson, who were raised by the Lord. Also, she was a mother in Israel, not the mother, and not a father. 5:12, Deborah awakes and sings, but Barak, arises and leads.
---Glenn on 6/21/09

A blending of Christianity with the woman's liberation movement displeases God, and will destroy society: first, raise the women, second, raise the sodomites, third, cause uncertainty, fourth, destroy the economy.
*1) Athaliah, Eve, Herodias, Jezebel, Jezebel of Revelations 2:20, Maachah, Miriam, Potiphar's wife, Zipporah, Nehemiah 13:26, Isaiah 32:9-13, Zechariah 5:5-11, Acts 13:50, etc.
*2) Exodus 3:16, Leviticus 10:11, Numbers 11:16, Deuteronomy 16:18, 29:10, Judges 5:9-12, Ezekiel 44:23-24.
*3) Judges 2:16-19, 10:12, Hebrews 11:32.
Genesis 3:16 (4:7), Deuteronomy 22:5, Isaiah 3:12, 1Corinthians 11:3-10, 13, 15-16, 14:(33) 34-35 (36-38), and 1Timothy 2:11-12 (8-15).

---Glenn on 6/20/09


Pray tell me what do the Men do in church now'er days?

It's okay acknowledging that there is a shortage if your working the streets and everyplace where the missing youth are your guarrenteed to find if only one a willing soul.

However when they come into the church and see the state it's kept nothing like what it used to be or what it should be they walk back out through the doors who fault is that, where there are laborer's there is harvest!

How hard is that to address?

people are still buying and making money in the Property Market despite the decline of wealth just to STUR UP YA PURE MIND!
---Carla3939 on 6/19/09

Yes Miche,

What ever God has inspired through the Apostle Paul we are to believe that it's Gods word , I'm not advocating that every word will be evident in everything because the fashion of this world is passing away and the order of things to come and is heading towards the fall of this present system, because of the disobedience of mankind and Shipwrecking the Gospel is only a part of events to unfold.


I like the way you evade the question, nice one wise!
---Carla3939 on 6/19/09

Thank you larry for you comment on the child-bearing of women.

The question often asked is whether the restrictions Paul put on women was pertinent to a local church problem or was a universal injunction for the entire church.

We have to acknowledge that Paul had to work within the framework of the social norms of his day.

And yes, I can agree that the family structure is threaten, but not by the status of women in the church, but by the immorality of men who have little of no knowledge or concern for the gospel message. Godly women will always strive to fill in the gaps left by men who will not accept their responsibilities.
---Lee1538 on 6/19/09

Bfother Lee, thank you for your response.
Men have to be men so women can be women in God's order. A shortage of men is not fixed by subsituting women but for men to line theirselves up under God and accept their roles.
Anyone with the history, duties and knowledge of spiritual leadership would not desire it except for devine intervention. It is heavy, lonely and taxing.
All we have to do is look at the black community (I am black) where many men have abandoned their Godly roles to see what happens when men are not where and what they should be in Christ.
Unfortunately the white communities are now headed in the same direction.
Wake up people!
---larry on 6/19/09

Lee, this response I found in a commentary may help in the child-bearing question...

But the apostle did not mean to say that she alone was to be saved through child-bearing, but that all her posterity, whether male or female, are to be saved through the child-bearing of a woman, as is evident from his adding, If they live in faith and love and holiness, with sobriety. For safety in child-bearing does not depend on that condition at all, since many pious women die in child-bearing, while others of a contrary character are preserved. The salvation of the human race, through child-bearing, was intimated in the sentence passed on the serpent, Gen_3:15
---larry on 6/19/09

*If we are to go along with ALL women obeying that verse, then we must go along with Paul saying women are saved through childbirth.

According to that verse, the old maids and spinters are simply out of luck - they cannot be saved if they do not have children.
---Lee1538 on 6/19/09

Why does Paul reverence women as EQUAL and tells the churches to reverence them as they would him in Romans 16?

And in 1 Timothy 2, Paul says right after women being quiet, etc, he says that women are saved through child birth.

Do you believe this?

You have to take the verses in their WHOLE context.
If we are to go along with ALL women obeying that verse, then we must go along with Paul saying women are saved through childbirth.
Christ says different though.
---miche3754 on 6/18/09

While I agree that there are some task in the WORLD women weren't designed to do, The Order of God is not like the world.

Paul was giving HIS order for orderly worship in a new church to help Timothy stop apostasy from happening.

ALL are called to work for God and all are just stewards under Christ the head. A man is not the head of the Church.
CHrist being the head will appoint who he will to be the steward who performs these duties.
And any woman that thinks themselves better than a man in this, should set down because then that is her pride, not God. The same goes for men. We should not be followers of persons. We are to be followers of God.
---miche3754 on 6/18/09

Carla - *Take your debate up with The Apostle Paul I didn't write It!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL! So you really have a hard time understanding Paul!

2 Peter 3:15-16 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Sorry poor Carla, but you really walked into that one.

---Lee1538 on 6/18/09

1 Timothy 2:11,12,woman-singular,not usurp authority over man,singular. Not all men over all women. Curse,Genesis 3:16 says husband rule over wife. New Testament 1 Cor 11:3 says husband is head of wife Jesus is head of man. It didn't change from Old to New Testament all men don't have all women under subjection. Now just for thought, Genesis 3:16 speaks of marital relaionship,greatly multiply sorrow,conception,in sorrow birthing children,desire to one's husband,all of those are speaking of procreation, desire,conception,birth. Then all of a sudden it jumps from the physical relationship to he shall "rule over you",taught as overall subjection,male domination. Only husband rules over wife by her desire to him.
---Darlene_1 on 6/18/09

Yes! When the translation from the scripture took place, the word "bretheren" was for male and female. This just shows some of gods revelation. Us bretheren meaning unisex can be ignorant. Praise god for his holy spirit. Luv u sis.
---Sunnie on 6/17/09

what's the [frame] dragging Slavery of African Americans into Leadership?

I'm Black British by Passport standards,I'm mixed parentage: Scottish/African/Hawaiian/Asian/ from the Carribean ending up on British soil..

Black by most peoples standards if you happened to look up my profile did you....Need something to Get At.....?

''Trash'' who started the debate concerning Racial discrimination against African Americans?

Can't understand God ORDER for Leadership ? have a problem addressing The Word of God without Societies Garbage about sexism, there is no sexism with God,

Just plain and simple GODLY ORDER!

Take your debate up with The Apostle Paul I didn't write It!!!!!!!!!!!!!
---Carla3939 on 6/18/09

Carla - *Stick to the point I know I'm black I'm not debating that the question was about women Leading!

While the fact of your racial makeup has virtually nothing to do with the subject at hand, we can agree that the view that women must be subject to men reflects that view from a denomination that once held that African Americans were the children of Ham and thus justified slavery.

Thus the same source as the ignorant belief women must be in subjection to men.
---Lee1538 on 6/17/09

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When Israel needed a leader God provided one, when Nomi needed a husband God provided, when Abraham needed a sacrifice God again, when God is the head of the church he provides, where there is No God man provides a golden calf.
---Carla3939 on 6/17/09


Women today want to ask a mans hand in marriage, to divorce regardless,to take a higher job role, to be better, to preach better ,to rule, to judge, to take office , to prophesy, to Deacon, to bishop to lead, to pastor, preform marriages, to lay to rest, to baptise, to bury, to fly airplanes,drive heavy Goods vehicles, to police.

To do just about everything that a man would normally do,

That's not what women were originally designed to do!

God has a Holy order
which Paul was given the position to teach outlined in the handbook of life [The Bible} everything may well be expected of us but not everything is acceptable to God.
---Carla3939 on 6/17/09


Slavery was abolished for none of the reasons you advocate, the slave mentality and the understanding of slaves is not the only reasons slavery Was abolished don't let me get into that one you'll wish I never started just like trying to prove gay rights are the same as racial discrimination, I was born black I did not committ an abomination and was turned over to do unseemly sin!

Stick to the point I know I'm black I'm not debating that the question was about women Leading!
---Carla3939 on 6/16/09

Carla, you and I have had this discussion and you already know how I feel about yourpoint of view.
Women ARE allowed to hold positions in the body of Christ. Where you would like for me to be bossy as you are, Im not. I know what God has called me to do. Not only do I have God as m back but my pastor and overseer and elders do too. I have not taken any authority and Willingly accept instruction. Were I to have a husband with views like JohnII(my pastor and overseer feel the same way), I would be the proud wife of her husband and sing God's prases for giving me such a man. Because that is what a REAL man is.
---miche3754 on 6/15/09

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If Miche is given to lead then she will, your heart may just be showing God your disgust at His choice. If God's word were in your heart - on this matter at least - then you'd recognise the need for candidness in our failings in leadership. Some adhere to bigotry in fear and/ or denial while others have shown that what we lack in leadership diligence we make up for in excuses. You may as well start telling her knock knock jokes, they are not interested! Where as we might find it cute when the dear lady puts her newly formed pimple down to a change of water, there is no such endearment when vice versa. You get the word in your heart and you lead her by the Book, and your lady will hold to it, you needn't worry about that in all your days.
---John_II on 6/15/09

Miche you want to fight your point but you use scriptures not in line with what you are advocating and mismatch scripture to mean anything.

Miche anyone can do that but you need to sound in doctrine concerning being humble submissive and ready to step down where the man of God has challenged you scripturally and many have done that.

If I were making assumptions but found that two or three came with the same doctrine to prove me wrong whether I believed them or not I would not procastinate as long as the scriptures they used actually had the subject I was questioning and scripturally showed me to wrongly used, Id step down I did when it came to re-marriage and stood down when I thought one could remarry regardless.
---Carla3939 on 6/15/09

---Carla3939 on 6/14/09 (in reference to this post)

And where have I done that carla?
Saying that there is no male/female in the Body of Christ, that Christ is the head of the Body, and each part of the Body has a GOD given postion, is not re writing scripture.
God has poured out his spirit on ALL. To prophecy is to teach, admonish, reproof, proclaim GOD's WORD.
Do you deny that, carla?
God says it in black in white. maybe it is your thinking thats not in line with God's word, and Paul was speaking about this issue for a specific reason. He is not restricting women. He was giving instruction on how a woman should learn and addressing a problem to prevent apostasy.
---miche3754 on 6/15/09

I don't have a chip on my shoulder. You are right, some women are like that.
I was also making an observation over the years of men in general. If you notice, I said not all men, but some.
I was asking how long are women suppose to wait for men to get back to the way they used to be? How long do you think God is going to wait?
I also said that for a woman to have these postions, they should seek permission of their husbands, and the elders of the body.
The word says for a woman to "learn" and NOT to "usurp".
Meaning she should have the knowledge provided by God first and then be given permission. This is in line with what God has said. Paul did not put restrictions on women he was giving instructions.
---miche3754 on 6/15/09

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Miche, I simply pointed out an observation that I have made over the years. The chip on your shoulder has caused you to take it personally.

The discussion was regarding men doing jobs and working in the church. You've mixed your husband's character issues in with the discussion. I can't see how it relates.

I've had first hand dealings with women who said that they wanted male leadership. The only problem is that in order to let somebody lead, you have to be willing to follow. Many women take the position of following but won't let go of the reigns of control because they simply think they know what's best. So just as the farmer "follows" his oxen in the field, he is still controlling and directing.
---ralph7477 on 6/15/09

--Trav on 6/14/09 (in reference to this post)
In God's kingdom there will be no male/female, no marriage/giving in marriage. Talk about being carnal!
Once again you asume too much making yourself look bad.
Like I said,God says that he will fill his kingdom even if he has to take the babes from their mother's womb.
Y'all men drive us women crazy waiting for you to do what God wants you to do. I am sure you drive God crazy too. I can't say how many of men's hearts the Lord has knocked on giving them the gifts and they refuse to answer. Then when God does give men the gifts they misuse it for their own glory.
God said he will pour out his spirit on ALL flesh. Women will prophesy. A woman has to be able to speak to do that, trav.
---miche3754 on 6/15/09

By the way Trav,
Here is your scripture witness.
Joel 2:28-29
And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh, Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days."
Acts 2:17-18
And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh,Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,Your young men shall see visions,Your old men shall dream dreams.And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days,And they shall prophesy.
---miche3754 on 6/15/09

Carla - *2Ti 3:7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Any good commentary will inform you that the truth here is the nature of the gospel contrary to your bias interpretation of scripture.

Sexism is alive and well and does what it can to hinder the ministry of the church.

Let's face it, you belong to that denomination that used to believe African Americans were condemned by God to be slaves and that is where your trash is coming from.
---Lee1538 on 6/14/09

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How long do you think God is going to wait to fill his kingdom?
---miche3754 on 6/14/09

You'd drive a Nazarite to alcohol. Your incessant search for authority by scripture is not proving anything. No prophet supports you. No apostle supports you. No scripture supports you.
I'll stand with them. I personally don't want to be in any male-less kingdom that you've got in mind because it's not it scripture.
---Trav on 6/14/09

Okay Ralph, What woman are you talking about?
I hope not Christian women, because we are called to be patient.
I waited 6 years for my son's father to stop drinking, and put his family BEFORE the bottle. After that,(and abuse) I left.
It has been over 3 years and he is still doing the same thing. What would you call that? Is that me not being patient because he refused to step up and be a man?
You may want to check what you say with God before you say them.
The simple truth is men don't want to take responsiblity like they used to. How long do you think God is going to wait to fill his kingdom? Stop trying to be wise according to men. God uses the weakest things to prove he is God. He operates to his wisdom not man's.
---miche3754 on 6/14/09

2Ti 3:1:17

2Ti 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Miche LEE you both Add to the word of God and error in you understanding why shipwreck the gospel if you cannot take the truth simply re-write the bible and rename it a new accursed gospel according to Miche and LEE!!
---Carla3939 on 6/14/09

Wow! Sexism is alive and well in Christianity. I am a single Christian female and the God I serve and adhore is not a sexist. I believe men who think like you do, will have extra explaining to do in the Judgement.
---Diane on 6/14/09

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*If the woman God has blessed her with the gift, she has permission from her husband, the elders of the fellowship are fine with it, and she is the better applicant, then I would say give it to the woman.

I could run with that!

Those denominations that are truly enlightened have given women permission to be pastors.

Unfortunately there are those that still believe in sexism, while pointing to those scripture that state an elder or deacon MUST be married.
---Lee1538 on 6/14/09

At last you've said something I'm in total agreement with Ralph. Good on ya dude! :)
---Leon on 6/13/09

*Paul said theres suppose to be ORDER.

So if 2 people apply for the pastors position, say a semi-illiterate man who has a track record of failure and a woman that has been outstandingly successful, do we need to pick the man over the woman? Or do we simply do without a pastor?
---Maryg on 6/12/09
Certainly not Sister. If the woman God has blessed her with the gift, she has permission from her husband, the elders of the fellowship are fine with it, and she is the better applicant, then I would say give it to the woman.
A woman should not take authority. She should be given permission. That is what I meant by orderly worship.
---miche3754 on 6/13/09

Part of the problem is that women can be very demanding and impatient.
If they think that something needs to be done and it doesn't get done their way and in their timeframe, they become very pro-active and critical when all they needed to do was to be a little patient and have faith that the man will get the job done if he would only be allowed to.
What women perceive as inaction on the part of men is more likely the reality that the men simply aren't doing things the way that the women think they should.
---ralph7477 on 6/13/09

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Leon, John II is speaking the truth.
Men don't want women to teach, preach, etc.
But I don't see any true men of God stepping up to the plate to do it.
This goes right along with the fact that men(not all) aren't taking their responsibilities in the home, Women have had to. So, men either need step up or shut up.
Men aren't fulfilling their place so God is calling women since they have been the more willing vessel.
BUt then God did say that in the end times he would pour out his spirit on ALL flesh and we would prophecy, dream dreams. God calls whom ever has faith in HIM to step out and crucify their flesh and follow what HE says instead of the world. If men aren't going to do, then somebody has to.
---miche3754 on 6/13/09

Sister Miche: Now, hear the real John John. :) He certainly models Christ-likeness -- huh? What a real Christian man, a true role model he is -- NOT! Please, don't let him fool you with his dusty breath & great swelling (prideful), cunningly crafted words that are initially designed to tickle your ears! (Gen. 3)
---Leon on 6/13/09

Leon: which would have you more proud, God making the women lead us or the women resorting to? Man's declination to leadership provokes judgement, the responsibility was given to much will be asked. Depending on how docile we get then the children may well be our rulers, and with the increasing puerility on tv we might have that day soon. Demanding on God's word like you do shows me where His word is...still on paper. Look to God's model nation in Isaiah 3:4-12.

Your second question is constructed poorly based on what I submitted, so your cast of aspersions with the insincere gratitude can wait. Your bible tract submission is out of place, I think it may have more to do with the church you are from.
---John_II on 6/12/09

*Paul said theres suppose to be ORDER.

So if 2 people apply for the pastors position, say a semi-illiterate man who has a track record of failure and a woman that has been outstandingly successful, do we need to pick the man over the woman? Or do we simply do without a pastor?
---Maryg on 6/12/09

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"...Aren't we [men] not abashed that the women have to do what God has assigned us to do?" ??? John II, 1/11

John: Where in the Bible does it say, if men don't do what God would have them to do "then women must"? Also, how is it that "some man" could rightly lead another man's woman (wife) right, "if only for a night."? That's ungodly carnal & just the CREEPY, wolfish, kind of thing spoken about in 2 Tim 3:6-7.

Please explain. Thank you.
---Leon on 6/12/09


WOW! Brother, where are the rest of the men like you!
You are right, a man is his woman's head.
If we look at what is going on around us, you are speaking the truth on the natural fleshly order of things. That is how its suppose to be.
My thing is a woman not being allowed to exercise gifts that God has given her.
Whats wrong with a husband who sees these gifts in his wife, giving his wife loving permission to use them to glorify God?
Paul said theres suppose to be ORDER. So, if she is given this by her husband and God, shes not in disobedience to either one but glorifies BOTH.
I have taught in church BUT it was with the permission and careful watch of my elders, pastor and overseer.
---miche3754 on 6/12/09

When the Great King comes to rule on Earth, the hierarchical and monarchical systems will be firmly re-established. When the natural order is upset then it leads to shame. Is a father not embarrassed when his daughter rebukes him for swearing? Aren't we [men] not abashed that the women have to do what God has assigned us to do? And no man shuts up his woman from chit-chatting before the service, then the female pastor issues her discourse on wisdom being a woman, are we not utterly ashamed men? You are not a man if you are ruled by a woman! Don't believe me? Ask her! The Lord's wrath will not be on the them, it will be on their leaders. If you don't learn how to lead your women rightly then some man just might, if only for a night.
---John_II on 6/11/09

larry - while your argument is the best I have seen yet, I need to ask the question as to what happens if a woman believes she has a calling from God to be a pastor, receives the same training as men and finds that God blesses her in that ministry?

In view of the fact there is a shortage of men going into the ministry today (and over 1500 pastors leave the ministry every month due to various reasons), must the church suffer because of this gender restriction?

The church I belong to has a woman minister and she is doing a beautiful job.She truly has the gift of leadership.

While my preference has been for a male pastor, all our previous ones only stayed a couple of years.
---Lee1538 on 6/11/09

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God has chosen to put males in leadership because men are the progenitors of life (first the sperm then the egg) and God is very much a God of order. God is refered to as he, HIS son, angels appear only as men, the patriarchs, sons of Jacob, etc. Women who are looking at the question from a wordly point of view will always confuse God's order with worthiness. Amazingly we're still falling for the same ploy Satan used successfully with Eve. Don't let anyone tell you what you really can't do.
---larry on 6/11/09

We can and often do attempt to worship God with our own sense of order but the words of Isiah before the nation of Isreal shows that God really does have a preference in order.
Isa 3:12 "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, THEY which lead thee cause thee to ERR, and destroy the way of THY paths".
Secondly, the issue of Old Testament vs. new is not relevant because the resurrection changed everything, for a God who cannot accept sin now sees his son for us and we are admitted into enternity. So few previously met the standard of holiness and required animal sacrifice that we are fooling ourselves in thinking we would have made it into eternity.
---larry on 6/11/09

Barrack was told BUT refused to go without her. So instead of God delivering the Battle to him God delivered it to HER.

Thank you trav for the complement BUT I happen to love being a woman. I don't desire leadership myself. WHY? Well, theres only 1 leader/head of Chruch and thats Christ. Plus, personally I like to learn.
Men can go ahead and believe they are leading. They are feeding themselves lies when they believe that.
We are ALL servants in Christ's body. Each of us are equal. Until you understand that the body is not flesh BUT Spirit, It won't matter the scripture I give, your heart is hard to it because you believe men in the BODY lead when they don't. If more men would step up, God would not have to call women.
---miche3754 on 6/11/09

Not a scripture fighter trav.
It is not my fault that you men have interpreted what Paul has said wrong.

Show me where God has changed his mind from Deborah to now.
---miche3754 on 6/10/09

I will take your postion if you can show prophets witnessing your postition. This will give us some witnesses.

You desire so strongly to hold a postion that was not given for you/women to hold. This is admirable in a 1/2 sense....that you want to work. Work righteous work...

Man...what a man you would make.
---trav on 6/11/09

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In most cases of leadership by a woman Israel was led into evil and turned away from God.
Deborah never taught the will of God for that was the job of the priest. She did not lead men into battle, but told Barak to lead the men. (Judges 4 6-7)
Deborah never taught to a group but rather to individuals, but gave private judgement when people came to her. (Judges 4,5)
The book of judges can be a poor example of what to do and how to live a Christian life.
---Bubba on 6/11/09

John II I agree 100% with that. If a woman is called and ordained by God, we can tell.
She has and shows all of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
I have seen both men and women who say they were called, when really they were just trying to uplift themselves. Any true disciple of God is willing to lower and humble themselves so that GOD is magnified.
The issue I am having here is the ones who keep saying God would not ordain a woman as one of the 5 fold ministries. Preacher, pastor, teacher, evangelist, prophet.
Like you said, anything is possible with God.
In fact, God chooses the weakest things to confound the wise.
---miche3754 on 6/10/09

With God all things are possible, and if it's His purpose and pleasure.... However if you [woman] are not under God's irresistible call to ordination then you should consider yourself not chosen and justly adhere to Scripture, women are not to lead the church. The Preacher seeking a protege provides the warning {Ecc 7:28}. Aren't women born followers? Aren't they determined to go where a man goes? Won't she try to best him? Won't she lose respect for him if she does? This means female campaigners in the pulpit rather than her who is chosen by divine appointment. Those not supremely chosen are vulnerable to their own innate agenda and feminism. She is only exacting her compulsion: really O man, where is your strength to lead her?
---John_II on 6/10/09

Not a scripture fighter trav.
It is not my fault that you men have interpreted what Paul has said wrong.

Show me where God has changed his mind from Deborah to now.
God has not changed at all actually.
It is men.
You all think that structure of Christ's church is of the flesh when Christ says it isn't that all his members are equal and are neither male nor female.
It is men that try to usurp authority of over Christ, not us women.
Since Christ is the Head, men are servants and equal to women in Christ's body.
Not my fault you don't understand that and can't tell the difference between Paul addressing an issue and you trying to input your man-made views.
---miche3754 on 6/10/09

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"Stop running and if you are a true man of God you will have an answer from God and it will line up with God's word." ---miche3754 on 6/9/09

You wouldn't accept a sound answer anyway.

To make a doctrinal issue out of Deborah being a judge is silliness. There are plenty of women judges and nobody said a word against that, were talking authority in the church.
---Pharisee on 6/9/09

Sounds like he got an answer to me. Did you honor it miche? Line up with it.
I totally agree. It occurred to me that the apostles knew the history and didn't use them for miche's deductions.
She needs scriptural approvals....they just aren't there. Quite a scripture fighter though.
---trav on 6/10/09

Thats the thing Pharisee, Deborah wasn't just a Judge like the Judges we have today.
She lead Israel when there were no kings.
Her duties were far more encompassing than the judges of today.
The only Person Deborah answered to was God. She even led men into battle because man said he wouldn't go without her. So, God gave the victory to HER not men.
You keep saying "GOD'S Word has not changed".
I agree with that 100%.
Man changed the position of women from Deborah being allowed to lead to "woman must be silent."
That being said, Christ said NOT to follow man-made traditions. I will follow what God says thank you very much. If God has given a woman the gifts, then who am I to kick against the prick?
---miche3754 on 6/10/09

Pharisee the only head of the Church is JESUS CHRIST.
No man is a representation of him. In fact men in Christ are a bride- compared to woman.
And a woman preached the best message of all in the Bible- "The tomb is empty, HE HAS RISEN"- Mary Magdalene.
God used woman to bring Christ into the world. And he used a woman to deliver the best message of the Bible.
THAT is the utmost power of God.
And no, I would love to hear a man explain why and answer my questions. But for some reason, everytime I have ever asked WHY, all I get is called names.
Another ? is why are men so threatened by God blessing a woman with one of the 5 fold ministries when his word says he would do this?
---miche3754 on 6/10/09

"Stop running and if you are a true man of God you will have an answer from God and it will line up with God's word." ---miche3754 on 6/9/09

You wouldn't accept a sound answer anyway.

To make a doctrinal issue out of Deborah being a judge is silliness. There are plenty of women judges and nobody said a word against that, were talking authority in the church.
---Pharisee on 6/9/09

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Glenn, just answer my questions.
You are avoiding because you don't have an answer.
Has God changed? NO!!!!!
So, why does Paul seem to contridict GOD by limiting women when Clearly GOD DID NOT?
Stop running and if you are a true man of God you will have an answer from God and it will line up with God's word.
If you look at 1 and 2 timothy, Paul is giving Timothy advice on helping to start a new church in an area that has false Gods. The women were the ones who ran these temples. They were trying to apostasize this new church with their old ways. Paul told THESE women to be silent because they had no knowledge of the Living God.
---miche3754 on 6/9/09

Some people like to pervert God's word by saying things like "Yes but Deborah was in a very submissive position when she judged. The people came to her while she sat under a tree." A pastor told me this.

His misconstruing of the word is wrong for more than one reason: 1) It's not a submissive position to judge over all of Israel. 2) People come to the judge anyways in our day. Maybe they didn't in that time, but yeah. 3) Like you said God doesn't change.
---amand6348 on 6/9/09

God does not support people in their rebellion, and does not accept their impure gifts, Proverbs 15:8, Isaiah 66:3, Malachi 1:6-11. A person should not expect to hear from the Lord in that rebellious state, except the word 'repent', Psalm 73:11, Proverbs 3:13, Isaiah 47:10-11. 1Samuel 15:22-23, Isaiah 5:20-21, 63:10, 1Corinthians 10:9-10 (Numbers 21:5-6), Hebrews 3:12.
As an aside, I'd like to hear as to how many of the pro female Bishop-Deacon-Apostle-Prophet-Pastor-Teacher-Evangelist are married, or in their fathers house, etc.
Please see blogs addressed to you at Apologetics, "Can A Woman Be a Pastor (75)", 5/21, 5/25, 5/26.
---Glenn on 6/9/09

Glenn - some people want to further the gospel of Jesus Christ regardless of gender.

Nowhere in the New Testament does it specifically state that women are not permitted to be church leaders.

If you point to those scripture that is often used, then you must also acknowledge that elders, deacons, etc. MUST BE MARRIED.

In other words, one must deny God's calling if single or widowed.

Of course, if your truly believed in gender discrimination you MUST ALSO HOLD that women must have coverings on their heads when they pray.

Sorry, but some of us Christians are really interested in reaching the world for Christ and believe we should use all available resources.
---Lee1538 on 6/9/09

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Glenn some people want God to be like burger king so they can have it their way.
---Pharisee on 6/9/09

Glenn, I am not a prophet!
I have never claimed to be so why are YOU making false statements about me?

You say God's word has not changed since the Bible was written right? And I agree with you.
So WHY did God put Deborah over men But Paul restricts women? Why do you think Paul went against what was clearly okay in God's eyes and in his word?
You have still not answered that.
If God did not mean for women to speak then why does he say that he poured out his spirit on ALL flesh and that they could?
Explain please.
And remember, It is not me spreading lies about someone. That would be you calling someone something they have said they aren't.
---miche3754 on 6/9/09

To whom it may concern:
At least as it regards the subject of women in ministry, Miche3754 is teaching error, and should be thought of as a false prophet, Matthew 7:15-20. She has been corrected several times, and by different people. She keeps making statements, and asking questions, that have been answered already. She is insensitive to the Lords direction. Acts 20:30: Romans 16:17, 1Corinthians 11:16, 14:36-38, 40, 1Timothy 6:3-4.
Verses to consider:
1: Job 2:10, Proverbs 14:1, 18:22.
2: Matthew 23:13, 15, 24, Luke 11:52.
3: Zephaniah 3:2, 1Corinthians 3:10, 2Corinthians 2:17, 4:2, 11:3 (Gal. 6:7).
4: 2Timothy 3:7, 4:3-4, Hebrew 5:13-14, James 3:1-2, 2Peter 2:17-22.
---Glenn on 6/9/09

Glen, you do realize most of the scripture you used does not apply to this particular question, RIGHT?
Gen 3?! You are trying to hold the deception against woman when woman was made free in Christ! Yo spit in his face by bringing up things HE abolished.
Like I have said to, You Say with your mouth that God has not changed from the time of Deborah but you stab God in the back by NOT recognizing she was a leader to men. And so were other women. You say Paul didn't condone women speaking BUT He says they can prophecy?! It is not me who contridicts God it is you because you have misinterpreted the scripture. God certainly allows women to lead so it is you who needs to rethink who you think God ordains and does not.
---miche3754 on 6/8/09

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Wonders never cease.. 45 yr. old Alysa Stanton, Cincinnati OH. became the first black woman Rabbi.
She will serve Bayt Shalom congregation in Greenville NC.
Women Leaders???OH yes!
---1st_cliff on 6/8/09

These verses say no: 1Corinthians 11:3-10, 13, 15-16, 14:(33)34-35 (36-38), and 1Timothy 2:11-12 (8-15).
Agreeing are, all the Apostles including Paul (Galatians 1:11-12, 16-17, 2:6-9, 11), & Peter (2Peter 3:15-16), all the first century churches including Corinth, nearly all of the commentators for 1900 years, and most of the people who have called themselves believers in Christ.
Disagreeing are, Satan, Genesis 3:1-6, rebels, 1Samuel 8:7, 1Corinthians 10:9-10, the unlearned, 2Timothy 2:15, 3:6-7, 4:3, Hebrews 5:13, wolves, Matthew 7:15, Act 20:29.
Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11, Joel 2:28-28 & Acts 2:17-18, a list of women, and misused scriptures do not negate the above cited verses.
---Glenn on 6/8/09

Pharisee - Once again you say things that are NOT of God and of your own opinion. Most of the Bible says men/man, when it does, it usually is speaking of mankind (HUMANS), not any spacific gender. You are TRULY NOT of God.
---Leslie on 6/8/09

Just don't think you're gonna come on here and cram it down my throat and I'm gonna back down. I'm done with this question and all of you deceived willful Christians who won't follow the word through his Apostles.
---Pharisee on 6/8/09

So, are you saying God didn't put Deborah in charge and it's not scripture?!
See, that is what I meant about fleh rising up. Like I said Pharisee, it is about God not man.
Paul appointed WOMEN as Yoke fellows- Equal in the Body of Christ to him!
In those scripture, he was addressing an issue. To prevent further coruption he put limitations on that congregation. He never meant that women be silent forever. If that is so, then why does God say a woman CAN speak?
---miche3754 on 6/8/09

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I agree Pharisee (6/8x2). There's a spiritual blindness that permeats the blogs when it comes to understanding the God sanctioned roles of OT judges, prophets/prophetess & NT apostles & pastors (elders, bishops). Some bloggers, because they feel women are being discriminated against in the church, conveniently see all the aforementioned God delegated positions of authority as one & the same for all times.
---Leon on 6/8/09

If you read enough of the bible, you will find that the woman is under the authority of the man. The man is under the authority of the church. The church is under the authority of Jesus.
Women can have a place of leadership in the church. They are just told in the bible not to usurp the place of a man.
God has given me a gift of seeing what is going wrong in the church. But I must not use that to rule over the men. God will make a way for me to tell someone who will use the knowledge for good. In a marriage, the woman must let the man be the leader unless it is not a wise man.
---Digimom on 6/8/09

I'm about as interested in your opinions on this issue as I am the thoughts of a retarded clam. I stated my opinion based on what the word of God says. You people want to take what the Bible says and add your own concocted reasoning to it, -have a ball!

Just don't think you're gonna come on here and cram it down my throat and I'm gonna back down. I'm done with this question and all of you deceived willful Christians who won't follow the word through his Apostles.
---Pharisee on 6/8/09

1Cr 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Phl 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellow labourers, whose names [are] in the book of life.

Are there contridictions here? Or could this be because in many early churches the women and men were seperated. The first verse is about wives asking husband questions. The second is about women working to save others as Fellow Labourers. How did Paul Labor? Women labored in the same way.
---Samuel on 6/8/09

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If a man is a woman head in the flesh like the Bible cearly says, who is here head in the Spirit?
By, the way didn't mean to sound *hostile* guys.
It is just that the Word uses the word 'as' to compare.
Man is head of woman as Christ is head of the church.
A man that takes being the head of his wife seriously will recognize when GOD has given her a gift of his Word. They would realize that she is not taking any authority because truy in Christ he nor she is the head but Christ is. Man who's wife is given the gift would love her as he loves himself and feel blessed that he is given such a wife and not feel like she was given authority over him in the flesh nor Spirit.
---miche3754 on 6/8/09

-pharisee 6/8/09

The bible says that too.
Its not junk. Its a legitimate question for all those who say "God does not change, he would never put a woman in charge of man".
The reason Paul said what he said in NT scripture was to fix AN ISSUE with a newly established church. But y'all men take to extreme to LIMIT women. When God himself said that he will pour out his spirit on all flesh and WOMEN shall prophecy. Tell me how does a woman obey God if shes offending men? How can she speak, if Paul said she couldn't But God says she can? Who do we listen to GOD or Paul?
This is certanly not about the flesh, so get over your flesh and let women who love God obey HIM. It's about GOD not man.
---miche3754 on 6/8/09

Some churches and Christians teach that women cannot lead due to religion, legalism, and Phariseeism - all have to do with man controlling and ruling (witchcraft), NOT with what God says. It's important that we ONLY go with what God says, NOT with what man says.
---Leslie on 6/8/09

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