Betty, you too live in this permissive society you mentioned. Or are you living in a part of the world where man and women don't have to work? We understand what God has to say about our conduct and actions in the world. It is not as if it doesn't rain in California. Maybe not a lot lately but it rains.
What you are doing is been a legalist. We are all alert to the convictions of the Spirit. Not just you. Why don't you let the Spirit guide people to their own needs? No reason to get all push out of shape.
---MarkV. on 7/17/09|
Consider Joseph, sold by his brothers, he ended as advisor to Pharaoh, even married there and had two sons Manasseh and Ephraim whom Jacob also blessed. Of what stock was his wife? It sure was not from the stock Abraham sent to gather a wife for Isaac either! His service to the Egiptians also saved his people from famine.
---Nana on 7/18/09|
markv, trish, donna- When the anti-Christ comes he will find you all lined up for the mark, won't he? Permissive society you live in & you treasure it, don't you? Bend the rules and not the knee seems to be your philosophy. Anything that is done for money or to be friends is good, right? NO. God said Be ye separate & touch not the unclean thing. When is it going to rain in your area? Never. Do you know why I ask you? The Holy Ghost condemns your conscience, Sag.
---Betty on 7/16/09|
Betty--I can tell that you understood nothing that I said in my last post. I don't know if you wouldn't..or perhaps you simply couldn't . No matter, I'm ready to give up on this topic.
However, I will leave with this:
II Cor 3:4-6
And such is the trust we have through Christ to Godward.
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as coming from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament -- not of the letter, but of the Spirit, for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.
---Donna66 on 7/16/09|
I am going out on a limb here. When I was in graduate school, I did a group project on Hinduism with several other grad students. We had to do a presentation, and research the beliefs of the Hindu religion and culture of the people. One of my classmates in the group is Hindu, and invited my group to visit her temple and observe worship. We went and observed, while one of the group videotaped the worship. She then took us on a tour and educated us on the gods and the outfits they are displayed in, as well as the charitable works they do at her temple. I found it very educational. It also gave me a deeper desire to pray for the countries that are lost in Hinduism.
---Trish9863 on 7/15/09|
Betty, I didn't address you because you will tell me again to park my car in hell. There was an opening in heaven so I took that. From your statement it told me alot about you. Now you are condemning others for working on a temple. Which in my opinion there is nothing wrong with that. But if he feels convicted for doing that then he is going against his conscience. As a believer we should never do that. I was not convicted by his work on the temple so I am not going against my conscience. We are not of the world but we live in the world, and have to work for companies many times that are not Christian in nature. They all work to make money and so do the employees. It is your right to feel as you do, but going to far to the left is not good.
---MarkV. on 7/15/09|
donna- 'Entity of its own' - don't put your ways off on me. 1Corinthians 5:9-11 Paul told them (1) Don't keep company with the wicked (that sums it up) of the world, nor with any that is a so-called brother. Which means sin is sin whether a Christian commits it or a heathen...don't have anything to do with idolators. Jesus Christ didn't believe in false gods either but He told Satan when Satan tried to get Him to worship him, "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." Jesus said you shall only serve God. He didn't say fake gods don't exist. He was talking to one.
---Betty on 7/15/09|
markv- The temple was being built for the purpose of worshipping other gods. I doubt that Sag is a slave, and that he was forced to build on that temple. He had a choice. He could have found another job to do. He seems to have had his conscience bothering him, but you & some others want to pat him on the back for furthering the cause of paganism. By the way, the Bible says we should avoid the very appearance of evil. 1Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Jesus Christ said You cannot serve God & mammon. Are we Christians supposed to take the mark of the beast so that we can buy or sell? Your job might depend on taking that mark. But you'd better not-God said NO.
---Betty on 7/15/09|
Sag, I believe Donna's answers are correct. It is one thing to worship in the temple and another to help build the temple because your job depended on you doing your job. A person can take an action of faith to an extreme. Too far to the left, too far to the right. Some become legalist fanatics. I once went to a party at my brother house where none are Christian, was seating in a chair outside drinking a coke. A sister (Christian) came around me to check if I was drinking a beer. I suppose if I had one, she would have made a scene. This people are fanatics. They pick on everything a person does and condemn you every chance they get. You cannot eat, drink, watch tv, even have one, you cannot think, smile at someone beautiful, or else its sin.
---MarkV. on 7/15/09|
NO I "twist" nothing. I read verses in CONTEXT. You seem to see each verse as an entity of it's own, regardless of the verses that come before or after. Learning "verses" is not Bible study. And most of the truths of the Bible are not followed or preceeded by "thus saith the Lord".
---Donna66 on 7/14/09
Thank you Donna... you hit this nail on the head....
---NurseRobert on 7/14/09|
Betty --Yes, in 2 Ki 5:18 Naaman was talking to Elisha about himself and how he served his master (an earthly king) in a pagan temple.2Ki 5:19
vs 19 contains Elisha's reply. And he said unto him, "Go in peace". So he departed from him a little way.
I may be mispelling Sag's name. if so, my apologies to him.
As for your accusation >>> You seem to enjoy twisting the facts in scripture to suit you<<, NO I "twist" nothing. I read verses in CONTEXT. You seem to see each verse as an entity of it's own, regardless of the verses that come before or after. Learning "verses" is not Bible study. And most of the truths of the Bible are not followed or preceeded by "thus saith the Lord".
---Donna66 on 7/14/09|
Betty --- to clarify my beliefs about Satan and idols, let me say this,
Satan is very real. I'd never deny his reality. He hatched a scheme to destroy righteous Job. He showed up in person to tempt Jesus. More often in the Bible, we see "evil spirits" who do his work.
Idols are made of wood, stone, fabric etc. They represent what someone believes to be a god. Just believing in a "god" doesn't make them exist.
---Donna66 on 7/14/09|
About 2Kings 5:18: Naaman was talking to the prophet Elisha, and Elisha answered him. Elisha did not say "the Lord says" nor did he say "thus saith the Lord".
---Betty on 7/14/09|
donna- You have stated previously that you don't believe pagan deities exist. A pagan deity (Satan) tried to talk Jesus into worshipping him. You insinuate that it doesn't matter what one does concerning pagan deities, since they 'don't exist', but Jesus told Satan, "Get thee hence, Satan, for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." I think Sag, not Seg worked on the temple-at least that's what I see at the top of the page. You seem to enjoy twisting the facts in scripture to suit you. 1Cor. 5:11 means avoid the wicked, which includes idolators. 2Cor. 6:17 says be separate & touch not the unclean thing.
---Betty on 7/14/09|
Mima --Good scripture. As I read it, Second Kings 5:18 tells of Naaman (not Haaman) bowing down in a pagan temple, not in worship, but in order to steady his master who worshipped there. He was mindful of God's prohibition of worshipping idols. But his heart was right.
He was doing what a good servant would be required to do.
---Donna66 on 7/13/09|
Betty --I Cor 5-11 is speaking about a "brother" e.g Christian, who is a fornicator.
The 2 previous verses speak of those who are NOT "brothers"
Vs 9-10 says
"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
Yet not altogether with the fornicators of THIS WORLD, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters, for then must ye needs GO OUT OF THE WORLD. (caps mine)
2 Corintians 6:15 is talking about being "unequally yoked". I don't think Seg did anything that caused him to be "yoked" to an an unbeleiever.
Nor do I get a connection between the temptation of Jesus and Segs job on the temple. Seg didn't seem to be tempted by Hinduism.
---Donna66 on 7/13/09|
Do you remember Haaman? Here in second Kings
5:18 we find Haaman getting permission to bow down in the house of Rimon(A Idol god's house) "In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing."
---mima on 7/13/09|
trish- My conscience is not weak, but yours & donna's don't seem to exist. 1Corinthians 8:10 says if anyone sees a known Christian in an idlol's temple, the weak, wannabe Christian convert will eat those things offered to idols. He will rationalize that just because a Christian is there, he has liberty to eat meats sacrificed to idols. Acts 15:28-29 plainly says the Holy Ghost & the apostles told the Gentiles to abstain from meats offered to idols. 1 Corinthians 5:11 tells us not to even eat with an idolator.
---Betty on 7/13/09|
donna- 1Corintians 5:11 tells us not to even keep company with any man who is called a brother if he is a fornicator, covetous, an IDOLATOR, a railer, drunkard or an extortioner - not to even eat with such a one as that. ICorinthians 5:13 says put away from you that wicked person. About pagan temples, idols (false deities)...2Corintians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? Matthew 4:9 Satan (a demon) tried to get Jesus Christ to worship him. Matthew 4:10 "...Jesus said unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve."
---Betty on 7/13/09|
Donna: I am with you on the meat/idolatry thing. If we can eat meat sacrificed to an idol, then building a temple is not any worse. I believe Betty is one of those "weak consciences" referred to in that passage you refer to.
---Trish9863 on 7/12/09|
Betty -- I simply don't consider that being on a building crew who built a Hindu temple is "worshiping" a false god... Just as the early Christians who ate meat offered to idols, were to be be accused of encouraging idolatry. We just have a difference of opinion on this subject.
Seg must decide for himself.
---Donna66 on 7/12/09|
OOOOpps! My mistake! My post should have said that early Christians who ate meat offered to idols were NOT to be accused of encouraging idolatry. Paul said those who balked at eating this meat had "weak" consciences.
---Donna66 on 7/12/09|
donna- The One & Only God said throughout the Bible that there are pagan deities that exist. That does not mean they have the power God has. They are only demons (angels that were thrown out of Heaven). One of the ten commandments was a direct command to worship no other 'god' - only the Lord God Almighty. He said so Himself. Your denial of these facts is certainly strange. What you kept writing about - denying the existence of pagan gods - seems to indicate that you meant if people go to pagan temples & or worship pagan gods, or do anything to help promote false gods, it does not matter because they don't even exist & therefore God won't find fault.
---Betty on 7/12/09|
I never intimated in any way that you worship pangan dieties. I asked If you believe they EXIST!
I do not.
I believe as Paul who said "we know that an idol is NOTHING in the world, and that there is NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE."
( I capitalize because I don't believe you even read this scripture that was given both by Bruce B and me)
This whole passage of scripture, I Cor 8: 1-13, is very applicable to the situation, but you seem unwilling to consider it. It's not my place to accuse Seg of anything. This is my last word on the subject.
---Donna66 on 7/10/09|
bruceb- If you look at this entire blog, you will see why I told them they are crazy if. I told them they are crazy IF they think God approves of pagan temples, and really, it is true. How could a so-called Christian read the Bible and think that God approves a pagan temple? Furthermore, donna asked me a positively crazy question about if I believed there were any deities in the Bible besides God & if I believe they are real. Then she accused me of believing pagan deities exist as if I worship them & then had nerve to say the Bible says pagan deities do not exist. cluny & donna exude the 'I'm ok, you're ok' doctrine & encourage people like sag to feel good no matter what.
---Betty on 7/9/09|
My comment to Cluny would now apply equally to you. Simply substitute my quoting Cluny's, "shut up", with your, "crazy", and address my words to yourself.
I find people who resort to insulting someone personally, merely because they haven't the wisdom to accept there are differing opinions from their own (thereby failing in any scriptural defense of their own cause), are often the most offensive of Christians. This gives all Christians a bad name: and both Christian and non-Christian may (and do) come away with an almost insurmountable after-taste.
To attack the person voicing a contrary opinion, rather than the opinion itself, is a sure sign one is at a loss, at best, regarding what Jesus taught.
---BruceB on 7/8/09|
Betty -- I'm not trying to "frame" anybody. And I'm not disagreeing with the Bible (which, yes, I've read many times over.)...just disagreeing with you... that false gods are necessarily demons, even though some in the Old Testament may have been. I've backed my view with scripture.
Whether or not Seg did the right thing is between the Lord and him. If he was in the wrong the Holy Spirit will let him know.
But of this I am sure, he did NOT worship "other gods".
---Donna66 on 7/8/09|
donna- Go frame someone else. Demons are the pagan deities that the heathen worship. They are not God, but demons. God said, "Thou shalt have no other gods...." Do you want to argue with Him? There is no god but God, yet God said some people worshipped other gods (which were demons). Throughout the Bible God warned people against worshipping other gods and serving them. Have you ever read the Bible? Who were Tammuz, Baal, Beelzebub, the Queen of Heaven, & Molech? I didn't write the Bible, girl.
---Betty on 7/8/09|
|Read These Insightful Articles About Mortgages
cluny- Why don't you, cluny. I didn't offer. It's not my fault that some so-called Christian (?) worked on a Hindu temple. It seems Sag's conscience was bothering him some, and you & ones like donna want to mollycoddle him & make him feel like he did the right thing. Why? So he'll maybe do things like that again? Sag clearly recognized that the building he helped build was not going to bring glory to God, but to a rival of God's - a pagan deity. You are crazy, cluny & donna if you think God approves of pagan temples.
---Betty on 7/8/09|
Can't you simply state your disagreement with Betty's comment? You might go so far as to become animated and adamant, in an effort to make the point.
Even sarcasm can be a useful tool, at times. However, I, for one, think you've stepped way over the line in suggesting she "shut up" simply because you take issue with her opinion on the matter
Your theological(?) point would have been well served with, "Betty, are you willing to offer sag a job, even if you have to give up yours for him, or money so he won't have to do this work?"
By adding "If not, shut up.", you've accomplished little but to appear boorish and rather callow--at least, to me.
---BruceB on 7/7/09|
Betty--- so you DO believe pagan deities exist! That's not what the Bible says.
The Bible says:
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things," See Bruce's post of 7/5 for the full passage
It didn't bother Paul to "eat meat offered to idols" (because they represented something that doesn't exist). And God did not condemn him!
Those of "weak" conscience were the ones that balked at eating meat offered to idols.
Those who ate meat offered to idols did so out of a genuine need for food. As I understand it, Seg worked on the temple out of the same need.
Seg did did make nor worship a graven image.
He did not bow down to them nor serve them.
---Donna66 on 7/7/09|
\\ sag- God would not get anybody to do anything for a pagan religion. He is totally against it.
---Betty on 6/25/09\\
Betty, are you willing to offer sag a job, even if you have to give up yours for him, or money so he won't have to do this work?
If not, shut up.
---Cluny on 7/7/09|
donna- What you say contradicts what God said in the Bible. #1- "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thyself any graven images....Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God...." Exodus 20:3-5 Helping to build a Hindu temple was making a place for people to worship false gods instead of the real God. God is a jealous God.
Pagan deities are demons, which do exist.
---Betty on 7/7/09|
>>>he served the pagan deity/deities that the temple was built for<<<
Do YOU believe these deities are real? Do you think there ARE any "deities" besides the God of the Bible?
I'm pretty sure Seg doesn't. If the "deities" don't exist, he couldn't have been serving them. He was serving his boss and the people who believed in these non-existant deities.
Re-read 1Co 8:1-13
Thanks, Bruce, for providing this reference.
---Donna66 on 7/6/09|
Sag, replying to your last entrance, Do you preach more today, after that experience? did you contact the hindu's and reached out to them? it was not God who made you work in that temple, it was your choice. let no man being tempted say it was God, for God cannot tempt.
---andy3996 on 7/6/09|
Read the entire passage and see if it fits: 1Co 8:1-13
1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol, and their conscience being weak is defiled.
---BruceB on 7/5/09|
Is there not a place in the Scriptures where God gave a man permission to enter a pagan temple and bow down?? Where can the answer be found?
---mima on 6/26/09|
sag- God would not get anybody to do anything for a pagan religion. He is totally against it.
---Betty on 6/25/09|
Betty: He served a pagan deity? What Pagan God's have deity over Christ? Who is building a pagan temple now?
---TIMOTHY on 6/24/09|
The temple is complete now. I haven't visited the place because I consider Hinduism a form of "idol worship".
In hindsight, maybe God had me work there in order to get me to SEE that there are people who need to be reached. Even in my own backyard. The same applies to everyone else. Everywhere. Even in the USA.
---Sag on 6/24/09|
|Read These Insightful Articles About Holidays
timothy- Yours is a case of the blind leading the blind. He furthered the cause of false deities, helping to build a pagan site of worship. He not only served his employer when he helped build that temple, he served the pagan deity/deities that the temple was built for. Shameful of you to suggest that a person do their best to serve pagan deities & that God would be pleased.
---Betty on 6/24/09|
How many live by the sin of Solomon. Solomon started out by "only building temples" where his new wives could worship their gods, and ended up destroying Gods kingdom. Beware t for these things happened as a warning tous. lest we ourself deviate from the righteous path.
PS. one cannot compare Judaism and other religions. we as Christian do worship the God of ABRAHAM, ISAAK and JAKOB. so to built a synagogue is a totally different league.
---andy3996 on 6/24/09|
Cluny That reminds me that I have just been on holiday to Hungary, and in Budapest saw the 2nd largest synagogue in the world (largest is in NY)
It was built between the two world wars, and the architect was a Roman Catholic. He included two pulpits, not knowing that Jews don't use these.
The pulpits are used ... but only to put the camera teams in when things are being televised!
Incidently, the Nazis sent 300,000 Jews from Budapest to be exterminated in Auchswitz
---alan8566_of_uk on 6/23/09|
There is nothing wrong with building any building, do not make mere brick and mortar an idle. In fact, do your best work ever unto the Lord. You might be given a unique chance to share the Gospel with the very people that are admiring your work. I performed home repair in college for people of many faiths and had unique opportunities to share Christ with people that I would not have normally met.
---TIMOTHY on 6/23/09|
Yes, you were. Where was your mind? I hope you repented, if you really did such a thing. Surely God did not approve.
---Betty on 6/23/09|
I think I might not want to be involved in that. It would have been yucko to be master crafting each thing that was obviously going to be used to have people think of their Hindu stuff. I would think the Hindus themselves would have wanted to do all the work as a devotion. But possibly the World Trade Center being built resulted in family owned business being lost to the competition, after the years that family men and their wives worked honestly, just to lose it all to the greed of Twin Tower money makers. So, that could have been an idol witch needed to come down > how about helping to build that, or build it again? Each house can be a shrine to one's own ego. So, you can't build houses?
---Bill_bila5659 on 6/23/09|
totally yes. as a Christian, one needs to make decisions that are sometimes unpopular. and we are called to tear down any shrine dedicated to other gods. this should not be taken lightly. and God blesses those that burn their idols. so why should any Christian help building it?
---andy3996 on 6/23/09|
And what if the building had been a synagogue? You think that might have been better?
Why? Judaism rejects Jesus, too.
---Cluny on 6/23/09|
FEW buildings are are built to bring glory to God. If the building is not built for a Christian ministry, who knows what it may house!
You cannot support yourself building Christian Churches, but since you are still bothered by your part in building the Hindu Temple, you need to take it to the Lord in prayer. He may move you to repent or He may reassure you. I don't know. But it sounds as if you need to get this matter settled one way or the other so that it no longer bothers you.
---Donna66 on 6/22/09|
I would have a hard time doing it. Didn't you get a check in your spirit every time you went there? Ask the Lord to forgive you. He will and you can put this aside.
---john on 6/22/09|
This is hard for me to answer. Obviously, you need your job and in the area of construction, all kinds of things are erected. I would say that many are for evil. The building would have been built in spite of your participation as well. Since it is after the fact, I wouldn't belabor feelings of guilt since we serve a loving/forgiving God. The thing is that if you think something is SIN, then it is. It really boils down to your faith and convictions. Something to pray about.:)
---jody on 6/22/09|