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Harm To The Body Of Christ

With so many denominations/Christians arguing, doesn't this harm the Body of Christ?

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 ---henry on 6/25/09
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Alan, yes you are. You like pulling hairs with me and I dislike pulling your hairs. I know what happens when I do. I think I gave you enough that needed to be said. Otherwise continue your own search just as I did. Again peace I leave you.
---MarkV. on 8/17/09

Mark ... I'm not trying to argue with you!!

You now say you did not say it was a web site, but you did tell me to look at biblebb!!!

I'm just asking whether Wesley accepted the fact that witchcraft existed or whether he believed it was an OK thing ....

I've not found any reference to witchcraft & Wesley, even in the large book about Methodism and Wesley that I how have in front of me.

I happen to think that witchcraft exists ... but I think that it is bad. Same as Satan exists, and is bad.

I think you believe the same as me about Satan (exists, but is bad), but wondered if you think the same about witchcraft.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/17/09


denominations are MANS RELIGION about christianity ...and ALL PROTEST-ant denomination daughters are FROM the MOTHER rcc Rev 17:5

RELIGION argues about all of their doctrines and traditions that are unsupported by Gods Holy Word YET they argue to jockey for position among themselves Mark 7:6-9, Matt 7:23

christian RELIGION is NOT the same as the Spiritual Church of Christ which CANNOT be 'harmed' because they OBEY and KEEP his commandments - ONLY one Truth 1John 2:4

remember MANY are called FEW are chosen in this lifetime to HEAR the Truth ...self professing christianity follows ANOTHER Christ 2Corin 11:4 who DECEIVES the WHOLE WORLD (not a few) Rev 12:9
---Rhonda on 8/16/09

Henry, the real body of Christ is never harm. While there are many here answering, not all of them are of the body of Christ. If they were, there would be more people agreeing with others. As you can see this website covers people from all over the world. Many that answer follow the wrong gospel. And many have no gospel, others are athiest. And since many are not believers, they cannot, not that they won't, understand spiritual matters.
Most of the Christain denominations have the same essentials of the Christain faith, but differ in small area's that are not essential to the faith.
---MarkV. on 8/16/09

Alan, I never said it was a website that spoke about Wesley. You misunderstood again. I said it was a good source. That's ok. About what one believes in witchcraft, I don't want to go there. It doesn't matter how I answer you, I only give you more ammunition to argue about, you will find fault in some way or another to show me wrong. That's been the case with you since I met you on line. You have a good day Alan. peace I leave you.
---MarkV. on 8/15/09

Mark .. I beleive in Communism, Obama, Palin, Bush, Aurora Borealis, racoons, Mount Everest, blue whales. They exist.

I don't beleive in the Tooth Fairy, becaue I'm not sure she exists.

I beleive in Satan, because Satan exists. I beleive in witchcraft, It exists.

Does not necessarily mean I follow any of them, nor that I think any of them good.

What did Wesley think of witchcraft?

---alan8566_of_uk on 8/15/09

MarkV ... I've looked at that site, and can't find any reference at all to what Wesley thought about witchcraft.

I beleive in witchcraft. I believe in Satan, Do you beleive in witchcraft .. it exists so I have to beleive in it. Satan believed in Jesus, or he wouldn't have tempted Him.
---alan8566_opf_uk on 8/14/09

Alan, a good source, if you are interested, can be found at Biblebb. It also has questions and answers from many great theologians. All you have to do is click a button. That is only if you are interested if not, just forget I mentioned it.
---MarkV. on 8/14/09

MarkV Yes, I know Wesley believed in witchcraft ... don't you? Do you beleive in Satan? You must say yes. But that does not mean you follow Satan or approve witchcraft.

That's why I asked in which way Wesley believed in witchcraft.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/14/09

Alan, first, as to my answer about Wesley, it was to show that he was not without error since he was compared to Calvin. Wesley did believe in witchcraft. Failure to believe in witches was looked upon by him as a concession to infidels and rationalist. But I didn't want to cut him down as a bad person. He was a godly man nevertheless. I gave those comments in answer to what Anne said. Again, no man is without error or without sin.
All protestant churches were reformed, teaching Calvinism. In later years some became Arminian. Some denomination split from each other to carry the doctrines again of the RCC. Not the catechisms but the Arminian beliefs which were considered heretic by all protestants churches when the reformation came to be.
---MarkV. on 8/14/09

mark ... I had never heard of Whitefield before ... and have not done an in-depth study of his work

But one thing I did pick up was that the Methodist church seems to have split in two, with Whitefield's part being Calvinist, and Wesley's part being non Calvinist.

You commented about Wesley and witchcraft (so many "w"s!) Was it his belief that witchcraft is valid (which it is not), or that it exists (which it does) ?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/13/09

Alan, you are correct. No one has arrived yet. All humans fail. Not a one is perfect. I am not arguing the inperfections of man. In fact there is no argument there.
In fact Alan, I don't know what his life was, what I am interested in as a Christian are his teachings of Scripture only. Calvinism and his teachings originated those Churches. In fact also, if we could study each person in the world you would find a lot of dirt.
---MarkV. on 8/13/09

"In the early 18th century, slavery was outlawed in Georgia. In 1749, George Whitefield campaigned for its legalisation, claiming that the territory would never be prosperous unless farms were able to use slave labour[8], due to his efforts, it was re-legalised in 1751" ... Wikepedia

No-one, not even the great George Whitefield, (or, let us say, Calvin) is free from error.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/13/09

Anne, I don't know how much you know about the history of the Church but I do know you make comments as if you do, especially Calvin and you also spoke about Wesley but let me give you some insight,
It was Calvinism which originated the great religious movement in which the Methodist Church was born. The Calvinist teachings and the great George Whitefield were the one's who gave that Church her first beginnings and her character. It should also be said that apart from Calvin and Whitefield, Wesley was a believer in Witchcraft. Many of the biographers pass over this subject but others have not. Calvin's writings are free not only free from witchcraft but contain numerous warnings against such belief.
I bet you didn't know that?
---MarkV. on 8/12/09

I would say yes because denominational infighting hurts our corporate witness, often does not edify or reflect the Lord's glory as described in 2 Cor 3:18. We are to do all things without grumbling or disputing. I just got through reading how the church of the late Dr. D. James Kennedy won't even let his daughter through the door? Good grief.
Imagine the signals to the unbelievers.
We have a president who claims to be a christian and favors abortion, we have Christians who kill abortionist in the name of the lord, the racist rantings of a Rev.Jeremiah Wright and the constant vile and negative speech from our christian siter Sarah Palin. A very confusing picture for the pagan who may be searching.
---larry on 8/12/09

Anne, I don't know how much you know about the history of the Church but I do know you make comments as if you do, especially Calvin and you also spoke about Wesley but let me give you some insight,
It was Calvinism which originated the great religious movement in which the Methodist Church was born. The Calvinist teachings and the great George Whitefield were the one's who gave that Church her first beginnings and her character. It should also be said that apart from Calvin and Whitefield, Wesley was a believer in Witchcraft. Many of the biographers pass over this subject but others have not. Calvin's writings are free not only free from witchcraft but contain numerous warnings against such belief.
I bet you didn't know that?
---MarkV. on 8/12/09

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i believe arguing, yes if it is over trivial matters definitely harms the Body of Christ, if you are concerned that someone may not believe in something that is doctrinally sound to be a true follower of Christ regardless of ones denomination, i believe that is a necessary time for argument.
---nicole on 8/12/09

Calvin murdered Anna Baptists. Anna-Baptists did not believe in infant baptism.

Calvin MURDERED anyone and everyone he possibly could who came into Geneva who didn't follow his teachings or AUTHORITY...kind of like Hitler...actually exactly like Hitler!

A Calvinist could actually be the anti-Christ, you know setting himself up in the Temple as though he were God. Many believe it will be the RCC, but who knows, not much difference between Calvin's mentality and the RCC's murderous activities...Crusades etc!!

Maybe the 7 mountains spoken in Revelations are Calvinism, RCC, JW ( Yep even they think they are the SECRET ELECT 144,000) all Replacement Theologians!

Notice all cults think THEY are the secret elect!!!!
---kathr4453 on 8/12/09

Kathr, you said he murdered everyone who disagreed with his doctrine, Lets see if I hear you correctly, more then half of the world at that time would have been murdered by Calvin. All of the RCC church consist of over millions of people. They all disagreed with his teachings, what happen to those? Since you said all that disagreed were murdered?
In fact they all lived. What you should do before you speak is get the teachings of Calvin, read them, this way you will really know the Truth, then come on line and speak the Truth.
The only way you are suffering now in your new birth is of dellusions and obssesions, and, here is what you said, "open not our mouths" very good suggestion for you.
---MarkV. on 8/12/09

Calvin believed he was Born Again/regenerated at his infant baptism, and held on to that until his last dying breath. That alone should tell you Calvin himself did not know or understand or even receive the New Birth.

Yet, claims he is an expert on the New Birth! Wanting to be a leader of the blind leading the blind.

Calvin never really left his RCC roots..infant Baptism.

Calvin was nick-named the Protestant POPE, because he murdered anyone who disagreed with his doctrine.

The NEW BIRTH manifests the fruit of the Spirit, along with the fellowship of the sufferings of Christ in us.....We're the ones persecuted and are killed for our faith, and OPEN not our mouths.

All one has to do is look at Calvin's life!
---kathr4453 on 8/11/09

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The answer is YES. It harms the Body of Christ.

You all will even argue about arguing....

Proverbs 10:19 When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise.

(This is from the NIV version. I bet you will now argue about which version of the Bible is the 'real'one'.)
---BK on 8/11/09

anne, very interesting points you made. In your studies of Calvin can you give us from where you got the information that he was not a godly person or that he didn't know God?
---mary on 8/10/09

I would think arguing would harm the body of Christ . . . like how kids with arguing parents may not get an example of how to love and to make a marriage work > "Do all things without complaining and disputing," (Philippians 2:14) However, if the obedient ones stopped disagreeing, then only the wrong ones might be talking (o:

Paul says, "For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you." (1 corinthians 11:19) So, I can see Paul knew the real Christians could tell the difference > ones wrong would give themselves away and make the "approved" ones look good (o:
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/10/09

But the question is...if Calvin truly knew God, then why did Calvin's life clearly indicate that he did not know God? I would be entirely and immensely hesitant to believe the teachings of a man with such outright evil fruits. This did not seem like a man who knew the Holy Spirit's leading, or understood how to interpret scripture.

Now John Wesley was a man who did not teach anything like Calvin, but Wesley was blessed to understand scripture, and Wesley led a life that was not hypocritical but was steadfast to earnestly follow the Lord in all his ways. Please check into the wise teachings of John Wesley.
---Anne on 8/10/09

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Kathr, you don't have to know Calvinism to know God, Scripture clearly teaches who God is but you haven't got it yet. Calvin also teaches the Truth of Scripture and who God is, so if you knew Calvinism teachings you would have known God through his teachings. I learned about God through many great man that God put in my path, and with Scripture in hand, they lead me to the real God of Scripture. The real harm to the body of Christ is when one of the members gets obsessed. I never heard how God handles those, but I am sure that you get to keep your salvation. The rest of the body of Christ keeps moving right along until that part heals. I hope you heal soon.
---MarkV. on 8/8/09

Friends, the real HARM to the Body of Christ is telling someone they don't KNOW God unless they come through the teachings of man: Joseph Smith, Ellen White, John Calvin and so on. This is a clear indication it is a CULT! Cults follow the teachings of man.

To KNOW God, one must come through Jesus Christ. Once you do, you can come boldly to the throne of Grace. You do not need to go through anyone else, not saints, not Mary!

To KNOW God is as Adam KNEW Eve, personal and intimate, and no third party need be in the room watching, directing. You come to KNOW God through teh personal fellowship of teh Sufferings of Jesus Christ. Philippians 3. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar and deciever.

Beware of false teachers!
---kathr4453 on 8/7/09

Kathr, if you knew Calvinism you would know God. And since you don't know the teachings of Calvin you don't have any idea what you are talking about. Oh sometimes you are right on other matters of scripture, but somewhere, somewhere something happened in your head that went completely wrong. You must dream of Calvin every night. And when you wake up Calvin is in your mind, you are obessed and taking a different form. I said some time back you have become someone else.
Just think of all the wasted time you spend knocking down Calvin when you could have been helping someone. All wasted time because you know nothing of Calvin. What a waste.
---MarkV. on 8/6/09

If the lost have faith, then they are not lost.

Not believing in Calvinism only makes you not knowing God. Believing in Jesus Christ by faith saves you, because that faith came from God. Without it you are lost.
---MarkV. on 8/4/09
Mark, you are sounding more and more like Eloy every day!!!

MarkV, you are very clever on words. It should say WHEN the lost put their faith in Jesus Christ...Then they are no longer Lost.

Your second comment. RE Calvinism. Mark, I KNOW God my FATHER by coming THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. That day I said Abba Father! So how is it you say I must KNOW Calvinism to know God my Father???? Did Calvin die for my sin?

Where does the Bible say I must know Calvinism to KNOW GOD??
---kathr4453 on 8/6/09

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Kathr, again you write something I never said. I know we are saved by grace through faith. You just make things up as you go to argue again and again.
Again I will quote from some guy online, "You will believe what you want to believe"
which leads me to say, You need to find someone else that will love you for who you are.
I am not making any head-wave with you. Which is to say, my love is not reaching out to you as you would like. Sorry.
---MarkV. on 8/5/09

MarkV, there you go again saying we are saved by Faith through Grace. Wrong..Scripture says it's the other way around.

But yes, Cornelius and his household are just a couple. Cornelius and household HEARD teh Gospel and we know faith COMES BY's not something we are born with. When Cornelius placed his FAITH AKA TRUSTING GOD'S PROMISES God counted it to Corneluis as Righteousness....

Just as you said in another blog...The Holy Spirit comes AT salvation, and scripture says, it's given to those who OBEY! Obey the Gospel. For the OBEDIENCE of Faith! Get it??

MarkV, you keep changing the subject to squirm out of answering!
---kathr4453 on 8/5/09

Too many denominations/Christians arguing, doesn't this harm the body of Christ? The answer is no. In fact when people discuss Scripture it gives evidence what another person knows, some might help other times it won't. It also gives evidence of someone's faith, and whether they have the true God of Scripture or just a god they created in their own minds. Just evidence not exact fact. The Body of Christ cannot be harm by anyone or anything.
Many people who answer come on line just to argue, some get angry when someone show them they are wrong, others know they are wrong but insist on arguing even when the truth is in front of them, they have so much pride they look for you to put you down even when you are right. It's a sinful purpose.
---MarkV. on 8/4/09

Kathr, you are talking about many topics all at once. Can you provide one passage where it says that God has given each person free will? Just one. And can you provide one passage where it says that the lost have faith? Just one. If the lost have faith, then they are not lost. It is not too much to ask.
I never called you depraved. If you are then you must be lost. I have never question your faith just your false believes.
The depraved are all those who are lost without Christ.
The lost know nothing about eternal security, they don't believe in God.
Not believing in Calvinism only makes you not knowing God. Believing in Jesus Christ by faith saves you, because that faith came from God. Without it you are lost.
---MarkV. on 8/4/09

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Kathr, 2: you can argue to no avail. Your believes are wrong because they go against Scripture. You will never be able to reconcile passages as long as you close your mind because you get angry that someone opposes you. You are not fighting me but the Truth. God is Sovereign and does what pleases Him. He has mercy on whom He has mercy, and has compassion on whom He has compassion. The Spirit brings life to all whom God has elect to give life to, whether you believe it or not. He gives life, faith, repentance, justifies them, sanctities them, and glorifies them, for He puts the love of Christ in the heart of all those who are born of the Spirit. He endwells the believer, and seal's him, all the work of God.
---MarkV. on 8/4/09

Ya know MarkV, since I have NEVER been RCC or even influenced by her teaching, seems we have a issue here. You seem to think anyone who disagrees with calvinism is RCC. How silly is that!

Augustine a Gnostic RCC, greatly influenced Calvins teaching.

However, PAUL and the APOSTLES, before that Prophets, Today Jesus Christ wrote/spoke GOD BREATHED words...called the Scriptures, that we can go to without having to swin through RCC, Calvin, Joseph Smith, Ellen White's etc, teaching to KNOW TRUTH. The Holy Spirit is our teacher.

But for some reason you do MarkV. Isn't God"s word enough?

Faith is taking Gods at His word...
---kathr4453 on 8/4/09

My eternal security is not found in a doctrine, but in the Person of Jesus Christ my savior, who die for my sin.

Now we know according to MarkV, that the depraved cannot know this truth, yet he would like to call me depraved because I don't believe in his doctrine...yet, is my knowledge of being a sinner, Jesus as my savior make me depraved. Hardly.

So, according to you Markv, are the depraved realy those who don't believe in Calvinism, or don't believe Jesus Christ died for our sin, receiving him by Faith.?

To as many as RECEIVE HIM, to them gave He the power to become the Sons/children of God.

Yes, God does give life to whom He WILLS, and He has WILLED in His WILL to give life to those who receive His Son....
---kathr4453 on 8/3/09

MarkV, the Bible clearly says, the second man Adam...CHRIST Himself is a LIFE giving Spirit. My Words are Spirit and Life.

To call Christ Your Life Armenian is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Arminian believe you can lose your salvation. I do not believe one can simply because CHRIST is my life, my eternal Life, My Born Again Life....and my identification with Christ in Death and resurrection Life is what MY SECURITY is based on. Hidden with God IN CHRIST SEALED with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

YOU were not sealed FIRST before you believed either.

You are a carrier of false doctrine!
---kathr4453 on 8/3/09

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Nana, I didn't know Kathr was a man. I was under the impression she was a woman. The information was for him if he is a man. I really do think it can help you too, to understand that Pelgianism, is the same teachings that cripped into the RCC over 1,200 years before James Arminian was born. And since you follow the teachings of the RCC whether you are one or not, this information would have great value to you, if you want to know the Truth. Or you can just by pass it altogether.
Salvation is viewed by the members of the Synod as a work of grace from beginning to end. and in no sense did they believe that the sinner saved himself or contributed to his salvation. That all men were by nature spiritually dead and their will's in bondage to sin.
---MarkV. on 8/3/09

"Outline of System by Loraine Boettner"
It is one thing to discuss matters with another man, quite another to argue with a man feeding you "quotes" from yet another man's writings. This second form is like talking to the dead.
---Nana on 8/2/09

Kathr, what you are following is Pelgianism" The Arminians introduced the same principles of Pelgianism which denied human depravity, and the necessity of efficacious grace, and exalted the human will above the Divine. It's doctrines pleased the natural man, hating, as all men do hate, the doctrine of Universal Depravity. To say that man could grow holy and spotless, that he could secure God's grace, and attain to salvation by an act of his own free will, was a teaching that attracted, as it still does attract, millions today. They believe fallen man is only sick, not dead and can either except or reject the doctor (Christ). The view exalts man's freedom at the expense of God's sovereignty.
---MarkV. on 8/2/09

MarkV, John 3:3-7 to be born of the Spirit, Jesus is talking about the LIFE He brings.

1 Corin 15:44-46

44It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.

The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus and not Himself. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit to comfort, teach ect. but does Jesus say, I will send teh Holy Spirit to give LIFE.

Again scripture says: Born again of the WORD of GOD, Jesus is the Word of God who became flesh.
---kathr4453 on 8/2/09

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part 2 Please print. Continued.

MarkV, you were not Born Again first to be Born Again AGAIN of Jesus Again. You are totally confusing SOUND scripture to meet your own calvinistic false doctrine. We are not to do that.

You are making the same mistake the Charismatic Movement, Mormons, etc make.

Exalting the Holy Spirit, who by the way ..the Holy Spirit did not die on a crossand was raised again for your justification. The Holy Spirit has no blood, did not come in the flesh. The WORD of God became flesh. You deny the WORK OF CHRIST PERIOD!!!
---kathr4453 on 8/2/09

Henry, in answer to your question it is not denominations arguing the most really, it is individuals who just don't like what someone else says about Scripture for they believe they have all the truth and other person nothing. Many times this same people don't know what they are talking about since they have never studied what they argue.
Some individuals defend the denomination instead of the Truth of Scripture. It's more important to them to defend their denomination then the Word of God.
And then there is those who hate others and will do anything in their power to make it known to everyone so they go to every blog to find the person they hate. That is their goal. Sinners to the core with no repentance.
---MarkV. on 8/1/09

This is a misquote: '"It is the Spirit who gives life the flesh prophets nothing." John 6:63'
The Scripture verse KJV says, "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

John 15:22: "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
That means that they heard and had all the capacity to understand and comprehend, by two avenues they were shown, by not just words but also by by the deeds of Jesus.
---Nana on 8/2/09

Kathr, since Adam, all the lost are in a depraved state. Man is a free person but he cannot originate the love of God in his heart. He has enough freedom as a bird with a broken wing has to fly but not able, so the natural man is free to come to God but not able. How can he repent of his sin when he loves it? How can he come to God when he hates Him? Jesus said, "And this is the judgment, that light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil" John 3:19. We read, " The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned" 1 Cor. 2:14.
---MarkV. on 8/1/09

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MarkV, to be made alive means to be quickened together with Christ. That quickening takes place as we identify with him in death and resurection life. Please read again Colossians 2, Romans 8:11-13 Hebrews 13:20-21.

God is NOT quickening you together with Christ when you hear the Gospel.

Hebrews 6, those who were enlightened and tasted of the Holy Spirit were not QUICKENED together with Christ. The Holy Spirit does not give life....JESUS CHRIST does. Jesus Christ is our LIFE GIVER, Christ is OUR LIFE....

You play around with words and meaning of words scripture does not say....almost to the point of denying Christ and exalting the Holy Spirit. It's the Spirit of the LIFE OF CHRIST ..HIS RISEN LIFE we receive.
---kathr4453 on 8/1/09

Have you seem a dead person, breath, talk, think, love, or make decisions? I myself haven't..
The same holds true for all who are spiritually dead. Before they can breath, talk, think, love or make spiritual decisions, they have to be made alive.
"It is the Spirit who gives life the flesh prophets nothing." John 6:63 (everyone lost is in the flesh,) the flesh prophets nothing. And in order for the Spirit to bring life, "And therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" John 6:65.
My answer on Acts 19:1 concerns the endwelling of the Spirit. A person is endwelled and sealed after they are born again, not before.
---MarkV. on 7/31/09

Kathr, as I said before spiritual life has to come to someone lost before he can make a choice for Christ. While dead he cannot choose someone he does not love, he is at enmity against God.
So Eph, tells us, while we were lost and walking according to the prince and power of the air,
And you He made alive, who were dead in traspasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,"
Kathr, in English it means, that we were lost following the prince of the power of the air and what? God made us alive. We were dead spiritually kathr, and again what? He made us alive. Who were we? children of wrath.
---MarkV. on 7/31/09

Are there two MarkV's ?

Batieste, Acts 19:1-9 is talking about Paul's uncertainty of the disciples salvation. Since all Christians receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation (Romans 8:9, 1 Cor. 12:13) their answer revealed they were not yet fully Christians. ...... Paul gave them instruction not on how to receive the Spirit, but about Jesus Christ. They believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
---MarkV. on 7/29/09
---kathr4453 on 7/31/09

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Kathr, if you had read Scripture you would know, that the Holy Spirit bringing someone to life, is not the same as been endwelled by the Holy Spirit. MarkV***

The Holy Spirit DRAWS through the preaching of the Gospel, but that is not giving life to you. If it were, THEN Hebrews 6 clearly says YOU can LOSE your salvation! Being enlightened and tasting is not being indwelt!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/30/09

I need to rephrase this last statement of mine. Being drawn by the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel is NOT bringing you to LIFE or you say Born Again. You are brought to life WHEN you are indwelt by the Spirit of the Life of Christ in you and that is your Born again experience.
---kathr4453 on 7/31/09

Jesus said that in the last days (which we are in) that there will be false converts (in the church) and false doctrines taught. Some of these doctrines would damn peoples souls to Hell. When you speak the TRUTH of God's Word, it may offend people. God will offend the mind to see what is in the heart (TRUE or FALSE convert). It is better to offend people and please God than to offend God and please people. God said it, and it is settled. It does NOT matter wheather you believe it or not, or it offends you or not. Jesus himself said that He came NOT to bring peace, but a sword. If we are being like Jesus, we will do the same in these last days.
---Leslie on 7/30/09

This is exactly why the Puritan Calvinists murdered.....they murdered the ground clutter! Indians, Ana-baptists, just anyone who got in their evil false doctrine way!

Please read!!!

God chose the Elect to be in in his family prior to the creation of the world as stated in the first chapter of Ethesians. And Christ was sent to redeem only the elect that were pre-chosen. Every one else is just ground clutter, they my serve some purpose in God's plan but nothing else and there is nothing they can do to ever change their status. .....
---Phil_the_Elder on 7/29/09

Phil the Elder, thank's for your comments. Very well said. ......
---MarkV. on 7/30/09
---kathr4453 on 7/30/09

Kathr, if you had read Scripture you would know, that the Holy Spirit bringing someone to life, is not the same as been endwelled by the Holy Spirit. MarkV***

No where does SCRIPTURE teach the Holy Spirit brings you to LIFE first and then the Holy Spirit is given Again to seal? There is ONE BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit says Paul in Ephesians 4...we are baptized into His death, and raised up together with Him....and that is the ONLY life once can Have In Christ. The Spirit of the LIFE of Christ in you.

The Holy Spirit DRAWS through the preaching of the Gospel, but that is not giving life to you. If it were, THEN Hebrews 6 clearly says YOU can LOSE your salvation! Being enlightened and tasting is not being indwelt!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/30/09

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The TULIP, Markv definition born again/ salvation totally negates Romans 4.

Abraham believed God, and God accounted/imputed to Abraham the righteousness. Imputed Righteousness comes first. Imputed Righteousness in NOT your born again experience. God is NOT imputing the Holy Spirit to you. God clarifies this when He says, that this imputed Righteousness was BEFORE Abraham was circumcised THEN he received the sign of circumcision (today our circumcision is IN CHRIST and our identification in His death and resurrection life and the same spirit that rose Jesus from the dead is in you and you are raised up with Christ a New Creature, having forgiven you all your sin, nailing it to a cross..((Colossians 2)).
---kathr4453 on 7/30/09

Kathr, if you had read Scripture you would know, that the Holy Spirit bringing someone to life, is not the same as been endwelled by the Holy Spirit. When a person is spiritually dead to the things of God, it is the Holy Spirit who bring spiritual life to the individual. Once he is alive to Christ he is then endwelled by the Holy Spirit. God seals him with the Holy Spirit forever. Basic discipling.
---MarkV. on 7/30/09

Well then MarkV, WHY does scripture say it's teh other way around, Through salvation we are given the Holy Spirit. It is given to those who OBEY the Gospel...the obedience of faith Jesus Christ.
And you do not see Cornelius given the Holy Spirit FIRST...but WHEN he believed unto salvation!

# Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
---kathr4453 on 7/30/09

Kathr, it is you who is causing division. No other person has gone to every blog as you to look to discredit my postings. Your evil intend has no place in the house of the Lord.
My postings are true. Salvation and born of the Spirit are two different things. Born of the Spirit is rebirth. When the Holy Spirit brings someone alive, that person is born again of the Spirit. What he receives as a born again believer is Salvation which is a gift of God. Salvation from the wrath to come. And the new believer receives eternal life. That is simple basic discipling
---MarkV. on 7/29/09

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To MarkV I agree with your statement.
---mima on 7/29/09

However mima, you've also made it clear you do not believe the way MarkV does when he said Born Again, and salvation etc, are entirely two different things. Just that alone is causing division in the Body of Christ.

---kathr4453 on 7/29/09

To MarkV I agree with your statement.
---mima on 7/29/09

Isaiah 9:13-16: "For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.
The ancient and honourable, he is the head, and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail. For the leaders of this people cause them to err, and they that are led of them are destroyed."
Therefore, I could not agree with "But false teaching better-known as heresies do not cost a person their salvation." "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Some lights are "blacklights".
---Nana on 7/1/09

Mima, I agree with your statement when it concerns born of the Spirit Christians. Almost everyone has a few doctrines turned around. We are called to be of one accord but through time many teachings have become corrupt. Depending who has taught you is what you know today as a Christian.
Now the statement that Exzucuh made that no one can be save with a false doctrine is true, but once a person come's to Christ by the gospel of Christ, he can be swayed to follow certain doctrines wrong. If everyone had the same doctrines they would all think the same, and know the same things the other knows. As we know, that is not true at all. That is why we have the essentials of the Christain faith. Those essentials have to be the same.
---MarkV. on 6/30/09

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Revelation 2:14-16 But I have a few things against you, because you have there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So have you also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come unto you quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

You cannot be saved if you follow false doctrine, we are not even to give these people a drink of water are wish them Gods speed. Compromiser's are like Esau and Judas, waves of the ocean in and out, and clouds without water, decievers.
---exzucuh on 6/29/09

No. It helps bring errors to light, so that the people will not be teaching false doctrines. Christians need to reject false doctrines, even if it hurts somebody's feelings. Those that hate the Light and the Truth will fall away, and that's their problem. If they have sense they'll repent.
---Betty on 6/29/09

Tom 2/Elder, you are correct. All it say's is that many who call themselves Christians are not really Christians by what they say. They are goats instead of sheep. His sheep hear His voice and they know Him. But as we keep hearing what they preach they give themselves away, they are goats.
The rebuking or correcting of others cannot possibly be hurting the unbelievers since the unbelievers do not believe in the Body of Christ to began with. They don't believe in God period.
The unbelievers who are destine to come to Christ, will come to Christ at the appointed time, by the Truth of the Gospel.
---MarkV. on 6/29/09

There are of course many differences in a different denominations and these differences would fall under false teaching.
But false teaching better-known as heresies do not cost a person their salvation. Salvation is a free gift of God.

Many people fail to see the truthfulness of the above statement they believe that any heresy any false teaching dooms a person to hell. And that believe in and of itself is a heresy or false teaching.!
---mima on 6/29/09

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Not so my friend, I was one of those that rejected church for the reason of arguments, My family was mixed denominations. It inspired me to seek God for the truth and he honored my faith to teach me by the Holy Spirit. I have found that those who make excuses for not coming to God always have another when you discredit the one they use. God has done many miracles through my ministry and those who are eye witnesses to those miracles that are rebellious still have excuses. Like Jesus told the rich man in hell.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
---exzucuh on 6/29/09

I understand we are to rebuke when other are in error, but today everyone seems to be rebuking because everyone thinks they are right in their own minds. A non-believer is not going to know truth from falsehood, so all they see is chaos in the Body of Christ.
---henry on 6/29/09

Elder, are the differences then between the denominations considered false teachings?
---henry on 6/29/09

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him, and if he repent, forgive him.

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed.
---exzucuh on 6/27/09

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"Pharisee, so are you saying that arguing Christians do not provide a bad witness to non believers? Thus making the non believer not want to join the Body of Christ."
henry on 6/26/09
Henry are you arguing with Pharisee?
Now maybe you will understand his statement. It is not so much as what we do but what others perceive. We have little control over that. Jesus, Paul, Peter and a lot of others argued with others because of false teaching and error.
---Elder on 6/26/09

Pharisee, so are you saying that arguing Christians do not provide a bad witness to non believers? Thus making the non believer not want to join the Body of Christ.
---henry on 6/26/09

My story about the chemist and the Baptist deacons treatment of him was wrong!!

I have just received word of a tremendous turnaround in the attitude towards this man from the church.

Yesterday we prayed about this situation while at dinner today he received a complete reversal of their views this is startling news.

God is mighty and he can turn any puny man's to mind!!!! Let us praise the Lord for all the great things he is doing has been and will do. Praise the Lord!!!!
---mima on 6/26/09

Henry the only thing that harms the body of Christ is false teachers. Satan was their Father, he started the first false doctrine saying "surely thou shalt not die."
---Pharisee on 6/26/09

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Christians we should appreciate this question. The body of Christ is made up of different church members. I have come to understand true spirit filled believers, while they may or may not be in denominational churches, look beyond the organized church. Jesus spoke of a church but he did not name a denomination.

A prominent chemist has become a soulwinner. Consequently he has been called on the carpet(special meeting with deacons) twice about why he does not any longer use the Roman road method of soul winning. Last Sunday one of these deacons broke down and cried(could it have been the Holy Spirit) in the church when asked to pray. This is a Baptist Church and any manifestation of the Holy Spirit is unnerving to the congregation.
---mima on 6/26/09

no ,it just tells you that many christians are really goats,believing they are sheep.
---tom2 on 6/25/09

If God cannot be harmed, and Christ has a body, and Christ is God, then it follows that Christ's body cannot be harmed.
---eric1968 on 6/25/09

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