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Must Always Submit To God

Since Jesus is God the Son and He is God, does He still have to submit to the authority of God the Father?

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 ---michaelb on 6/29/09
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'If you are the Son of God..." "Satan, knowing Jesus is Creator God challenged Him to prove it!" Warwick 7/28/09

Classic eisegesis. Nothing in this verse identifies Jesus as "Creator." Jesus is asked to prove that he is the "Son of God."

It has already been established (in spite of Warwick's false assumption- 7/15/09) that "Indeed" the Father refers to others as His "Sons" (angels, men) without reference to divine equality.

Christ responds to Satan (who is alluding to Ps 91:11) by citing Deut 6:16 which literally translates: "You must not put Jehovah your God to the test."

---scott on 7/29/09

1. "Certainly Jesus is an individual, in the Godhead." Warwick 7/28/09

What scripture makes this statement? Warwick chapter 12:20?

2. "Still an individual inhabiting His human body in heaven, now glorified." Warwick 7/28/09

Christ was "put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit."
1 Peter 3:18, NAS

3. "Athanasius' creed..." Warwick 7/28/09

I, for one, am interested in the inspired word of God rather than the uninspired words of men who came later. The Athanasian Creed is dated 5th or possible 6th century ce and the actual authorship is in question.
---scott on 7/29/09

'Individual in the Godhead...Individual in His incarnation." Warwick 7/29/09

Explain, in light of this 'individuality,' how there are not three Gods but one.
---scott on 7/29/09

David, as Moule says - your view is possible. Not probable, only 'possible.'

Nonetheless, very doubtful, one problem being 'the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ'-Titus 2:13, 'appearing' is never used of God the Father, only of Jesus Christ. So who is 'appearing'- 'our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ'!

Regarding 2Pe 1:1, 2 in Greek the two nouns are bound together by a single article, strongly suggesting 1 person is meant.

See also the New World Translation (JW) where 1 Peter 1:3 'ho theos kai pater' is translated 'the God and Father.' Therefore by the same rules 2 Pe. 1:1,2 'ho theos kai soter' should read 'the God and Saviour' referring to Jesus alone.
---Warwick on 7/29/09

Predictable Scott!

Certainly Jesus is an individual, in the Godhead, from eternity, and at creations beginning- "Let us make man in our image, our likeness. Individual in His incarnation, now limited in space & time! Still an individual inhabiting His human body in heaven, now glorified.

Athanasius' creed, in part:

"For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son,
and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one..."

"Poor oft overlooked HS." Careful Scott Jesus says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven Mark 3:29. Your disrespect is tantamount to blasphemy!
---Warwick on 7/28/09

So, grammatically, Revelation 1:17 indicates a title, whereas Isaiah 44:6 describes Jehovah's Godship.
---David8318 on 7/27/09

godship & #8194, & #8194,/ god-ship]
Use godship in a Sentence
noun 1. the rank, character, or condition of a god.
2. Often Facetious. a title used in referring to a godlike person: A bevy of servants were on hand to attend their godship's every whim.

Sound's the same to me....
---Ruben on 7/28/09

At Titus2:13 are two nouns connected by 'kai' ('and'), the 1st noun preceded by the definite article 'tou' ('of the'), and the 2nd noun without the def.article.

2Pe 1:1,2 is similarly constructed- a distinction is made between God and Jesus. Thus, when 2 persons are connected by 'kai', if the 1st person is preceded by the def.article it's not necessary to repeat the def.article before the 2nd person.

'An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek', C.F.D. Moule,Cambridge,1971,p.109,- the sense 'of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ . . . is possible in [koi-ne] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article].'

The correct rendering of Titus2:13 is contrary to trinitarian, Platonic beliefs.(Warwick 7/24/09)
---David8318 on 7/28/09

Are Jehovah and Jesus the same person?

Jesus said to the Jewish Pharisees:

"In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true, I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me."
John 8:17, 18, RS

Using the Jewish law as a comparison Jesus Christ speaks of himself as an individual, separate and distinct from the Father. His comment would make little sense if he and the father were the same person. He certainly made no reference to 2 persons in one, let alone 3. (Poor oft overlooked HS).

"BTW Jehovah is not in the Bible." Warwick 7-23

Then "BTW" neither is "Jesus."
---scott on 7/28/09

Donna, Re John 17 (7/21/09)

I notice that you didn't include verse three:

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." NASV

How do you explain that Jesus, here, distinguishes himself from the "only true God" while praying to Him?

Or was he somehow praying to himself?
---scott on 7/28/09

Scott how strange you would quote Origin.

Notice a few things

'Son of God': Consider Matt. 4:3 Satan, who surely knew who Jesus was asked 'If you are the Son of God tell these stones to become bread.' Satan, knowing Jesus is Creator God challenged Him to prove it!

'Firstborn of all creation: We know from Colossians 1:16 Jesus is not a creature but the maker of every created thing. He did not create Himself. Firstborn does not necessarily mean the first child, even in human terms as King David, though lastborn was called firstborn i.e. preeminent, above all.

Jesus not a creature, not born first, but being the Creator is preeminent above anything created, obviously.
---Warwick on 7/28/09

In the original Hebrew at Isaiah 44:6, there is no definite article with the words "first" and "last," whereas in Jesus' description of himself in the original Greek at Revelation 1:17, the definite article is found.

So, grammatically, Revelation 1:17 indicates a title, whereas Isaiah 44:6 describes Jehovah's Godship.
---David8318 on 7/27/09


Origin, (185-254 C.E.) proclaimed:

"For the Son of God the First-born of all creation, [Colossians 1:15, NAB, et al.] although He seemed recently to have become incarnate, is not by any means on that account recent. For the holy Scriptures know Him to be the most ancient of all the works of creation, for it was to Him that God said regarding the creation of man, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness."- Against Celsus, book 4, chapter 37.
---scott on 7/26/09

David-- Why do you feel the need to tell "trinitarians" what they believe? Most of us know what we believe and, frankly, it isn't anything like what you SAY we believe.

There is nothing awkward about calling Jesus "Christ". We do it regularly! Christ is my Savior who came in the flesh to shed His blood for my salvation. Why should I find it awkward to talk about Him?

I understand that you believe your Church is the only one that has the truth. But you will have to present a clearer case before you will make any converts here. Otherwise, everything you say just comes across as a personal bias.
---Donna66 on 7/25/09

Trinitarians find the title 'CHRIST' awkward because one cannot be a 'trinitarian' and at the same time a 'christian'- they are a contradiction in terms.

AMEN David

religious christianity serves RELIGION and their idea of "a Christ" ....unable to discern it is ANOTHER Christ they worship 2Corin 11:4 ...this false christ was GIVEN by the god of this world 2Corin 4:4 through the false church in Rome and their counterfeit christ is dressed up in pagan traditions

religious christianity duped into believing a deception will occur in some futuristic event - IT ALREADY happened and over centuries this false Christ blended into MENS christiandom

Christ from Gods Holy Word is unknown to trinitarians
---Rhonda on 7/25/09

David you claim '..when Revelation describes JesusChrist as 'First and Last', it is always with definite limitations- with regard to his death and resurrection.' (1:17,18, 2:8)

Revelation contradicts you!

The inclusion of : "I was dead, & behold I am alive forevermore" & "..was dead & came to life.." with the"First & the Last", show Jesus said I am the one who died & rose again, I am the First & the Last the only God.

See :
Isaiah 44:6 God Almighty says "I am the first & I am the last, apart from me there is no God." The first and the last is Almighty God.

---Warwick on 7/24/09

Rev. 1:8 '"I am the Alpha & the Omega," says the Lord God, who is, who was, & who is to come, the Almighty'-Alpha & Omega = Almighty God.

1:17,18 "I am the First & the Last. I am he who lives, was dead, & behold I am alive forevermore."

2:8 "These things say the First & the Last, who was dead & came to life."

22:13 'I am the Alpha & the Omega, the Beginning & the End, the First & the Last. Only Jesus is the Alpha & the Omega, Beginning & End , First & Last, who died and rose again-Almighty God.

No 'limitations' here!
---Warwick on 7/24/09

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David I serve the Lord Jesus Christ. Stop telling lies!

You ignore that God, Jesus, His enemies and apostles all call Him God.

You quote "You are the CHRIST, son of the living God." Matthew 16:16.' However the text actually reads "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." The Son,the only begotten Son!

Paul agrees, calling Jesus 'our great God and Saviour', Titus 2:13 Deceitfully the Watchtower mistranslates this as " While we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and (of) the Saviour of us, Christ Jesus.' Only the JW translation attempts to make out there are two people mentioned here. Not Just Jesus, as legitimate translations say.
---Warwick on 7/24/09

Why do we have two 'First and Last'? Because there are two personages spoken of in Revelation.

Rev.1:2 confirms this, the angel- 'who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave...'

However, when 'First and Last' is applied to Jehovah at 22:12,13, no limitation is given in terms of death and resurrection. (Is.44:6, 48:12)

When applied to JesusChrist it is in reference to his death and resurrection. (1:17,18. 2:8) Christ was the 'First' to be resurrected to spirit life, and the 'Last' one so resurrected directly by Jehovah. All other faithful humans will be resurrected through Christ. - John 11:25.

Only one is described as 'the Alpha and the Omega' in Revelation. Obviously Almighty God- YHWH.
---David8318 on 7/24/09

An example of trinitarian anti-Christ propaganda has already been highlighted in my post of 7/23/09, pointing out Warwick's Platonic understanding of Jesus being everything that he is not (in his post of 7/20/09) and avoiding what Jesus IS- 'the CHRIST'.

The 'funny' thing in reality, is when trinitarians realise in the mystical, anti-Christ fog of trinitarianism that they wallow in, who Jesus really is. Not Almighty God, Not YHWH and Not 'the Alpha and the Omega'.

The Apostle Peter rightly identified Jesus-

"You are the CHRIST, son of the living God." Matthew 16:16.
---David8318 on 7/24/09

As previous- when Revelation describes JesusChrist as 'First and Last', it is always with definite limitations- with regard to his death and resurrection. (1:17,18, 2:8)
---David8318 on 7/23/09

Then please explain why we have two First and Last and the Alpha and the Omega?
---Ruben on 7/24/09

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Trinitarians find the title 'CHRIST' awkward because one cannot be a 'trinitarian' and at the same time a 'christian'- they are a contradiction in terms.

Of course, a trinitarian will swear blind that he is a Christian. But they do not fully understand what 'Christ' means.

Not only is 'trinitarian' and 'Christian' a contradiction in terms, but they also contradict each other in action. The world wars fought in the past and today, have begun and are supported by 'trinitarians'.

Thus, trinitarians are not submissive to the God of love, (1John 4:8, 20) and reveal in themselves that Jesus 'the Christ' could not have been a trinitarian.
---David8318 on 7/24/09


We've never had a discussion about "the spirit of man" or what it means to be "born again," so your assertion that I "don't believe those things could hardly be justified and smacks of 'red herring.'

If you are suggesting that we can simply rely on the inclination or prodding of "the spirit" to determine issues of faith without closely examining God's word and the record of first century Christians for substantive proof, that's a slippery slope.

"For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge." Rom 10:1-3

" is an unenlightened enthusiasm." Weymouth

"Examine everything carefully...." 1 Thess 5:21
---scott on 7/24/09

David, you are a funny guy! You will write anything but this takes the prize 'Trinitarians deny the Christ and are full of misleading anti-Christ propaganda.'

So Trinitarians who, insist the Lord Jesus Christ is God, deny Him!

Please give us an example of this 'anti-Christ propaganda.'
---Warwick on 7/24/09

Yes, Revelation 1:7,11,17,18, & 2:8 refer to Jesus. But nowhere in these verses is Christ described as 'God Almighty'. That would contradict him as 'the CHRSIT'. To conclude JesusChrist is 'God Almighty' from these verses, one would need to have preconceived Platonic trinity views.

As previous- when Revelation describes JesusChrist as 'First and Last', it is always with definite limitations- with regard to his death and resurrection. (1:17,18, 2:8)

This is not the case when this expression applies to Jehovah, the Lord God Almighty at 22:12,13 and at Isaiah 44:6 when no limitation is applied to Him in terms of death and resurrection. Jehovah, YHWH, God Almighty CANNOT die. JesusChrist conversely, HAS died for our salvation.
---David8318 on 7/23/09

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David, when I write 'Jesus' I refer only to, the Lord Jesus Christ, who saved me from hell. His name is special to me. But you say I deny Him. Strange!

It is clear from Revelation 1:11,17,18, 2:8, & 22:13 that Jesus, (the one 'coming with the clouds' Rev. 1:7), who died and is alive (Rev. 1:17,18, 2:8) called Himself Almighty God.

See Isaiah 44:6 Where the Lord, Israel's King, Redeemer, Lord Almighty is the first and the last-the Alpha and the Omega.

Jesus says 'this is me: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS-Rev.1:16

Almighty God is the Alpha and the Omega, Christ is the Alpha and the Omega-therefore Christ is Almighty God-YHVH!

BTW "Jehovah' isn't in the Bible.
---Warwick on 7/23/09

Psalms 23:1 The LORD [is] my shepherd, I shall not want
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:28 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
10:30 I and my Father are one.
Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not
---MIchael on 7/23/09

Nowhere is Jesus scripturally given the title 'Lord God Almighty'.

You will notice in posts such as the trinitarian Warwick (7/20/09), he never assigns Jesus his proper scriptural title- 'CHRIST'. (Mt.1:1, 16:16) Trinitarians deny the Christ and are full of misleading anti-Christ propaganda.

These trinitarian Christ deniers distort the personalities of the 'Son of God' Jesus, and of his 'Father', Jehovah.

Consequently, trinitarian failure to view the Son as submissive to the Father, they fail to differentiate between the presence of Christ in Kingdom power, (Mt.24:3) and of Jehovah's 'coming' at Armageddon. (Rev.16:16)

Jesus is not 'the Alpha and the Omega' anywhere in Revelation. Jehovah is.
---David8318 on 7/23/09

Scott, I will answer number 4 for you, I don't exclude you from been a genuine believer. I cannot do that Scott. I have no power to tell who is and who isn't a believer.
What I discribe to you is that you don't seem to believe in the Spirit of man when he is born again. The same as the Spirit of Christ been the Spirit of God. And if you don't believe in the Spirit in man, then you don't believe in a person been born again of the Spirit. And if not born again then no rebirth. I say this because our whole salvation is based on Faith. Faith that the Spirit is guiding us and convicting us and teaching us as believers. If we don't believe that, then we are on our own waving in the wind.
---MarkV. on 7/23/09

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1. How does that answer the question regarding Christ's submissive role in heaven? 1 Cor 15:28

2. I'm not quite clear what you mean in saying "the Spirit of God was part of Christ." We may be in agreement here, but if you could clarify with a scriptural reference It would be helpful. Without a biblical foundation, I hope you can see the danger of simply expounding a personal theological viewpoint or opinion.

3. Since I believe your comments seem to (surprise) exclude me from the group of "true believers" I'd ask:

Where does God's word indicate that a "True believer" is one that believes in a triune God? Or that one's everlasting life is dependent on accepting this belief?
---scott on 7/22/09

Scott what does 'those terms' refer to?

Jesus is called God, and the God, in Scripture. He calls Himself Almighty God, the Alpha and the Omega, in Revelaton.

Therefore God's only begotten Son is God the Son.

'subject' in 1 Corinthians 15:28 doesn't concern Jesus' essential nature or being as 1 Tim. 3:16, Acts 3:15, Phil. 2:6-11, Col. 2:9 attest. It concerns His functional subjection to the Father, He being God-man mediator, perfect man, necessarily obedient to God, to fulfill God's plan of redemption. He is still, in this sense 'subject' to the Father as he has retained His human nature, (Luke 24:37-39, Acts 2:31) even though glorified.

Jesus will return as the Son of Man (Matt. 26:64) showing His humanity.
---Warwick on 7/22/09

Scott, I believe the problem that I see that many of you who refuse to believe that Jesus Christ in Spirit was God is that you don't believe the Spirit of God was a part of Christ. The concept is the same with all genuine believers. If the genuine believers don't have the Spirit of God then you have no rebirth. If no rebirth then you have received nothing. Which is why you don't believe that at death the Spirit goes to be with God. Because in your thinking, there is no spirit anyways. And if there is, it too dies. Which would be impossible since it is Spirit.
One day, the Bible says we will be like Christ, when our we receive our new bodies, we will be as Christ, but not Christ. The corruptable into incorruptable, the mortal to imortality.
---MarkV. on 7/22/09

Everyone should try to submit to the will of God.
---sri.ramakrishna on 7/21/09

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I agree with your comments about Christ's submissive and obedient nature while on earth. And that it serves as an example for us.

But statements such as "His Spirit was deity" and "All three persons make the true Godhead" are where you begin to infuse theology rather than scripture into your conclusions.

God's word makes no reference to those terms (along with "God the Son" -Warwick, 7/20/09).

In addition, the subordination that you refer to isn't restricted to Christ's time on earth.

"When all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all." 1 Cor 15:28 ASV
---scott on 7/21/09

The unity of Jesus and the Father is clearer when Jesus speaks of himself.

John 17

5- And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own Self with the GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD (I use caps for emphasis, other mechanisms don't seem to work).


And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee.

11- Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE.
---Donna66 on 7/21/09

Scott, but it does since He is in an encarnated state, in which He is to be as a human, humble to the Father. Following all directions from Him. That was His purpose while here to be obedient which is a clue for us to be obedient as He was as human's. He was as human as any of us and had to be, but His Spirit was deity, and as human He came to fulfill His duty as a sacrifice for sin and take all the sins upon Himself. To be a substitute for those who believe in Him. The Bible says we are saved by God, we are Saved by Jesus, and we are saved by the Holy Spirit when He brings us to life. All three persons make the true Godhead.
---MarkV. on 7/21/09

Isaiah 44:6 God is:

Israel's King and Redeemer
The Lord Almighty
The first and the last
The only God

Scripture applies these titles to Jesus.

Rev. 19:16
John 19:21 where He 'claimed to be King of the Jews.'
Revelation 5:9 '...and have redeemed us..'
Revelation 1:8 Almighty God is the Alpha & the Omega. In Rev. 22:13 Jesus is.
THE ONE AND ONLY GOD. Throughout Scripture the titles given to God are also given to Jesus. There is only one God.

Cultists are schooled in human reasoning (Col. 2:8) so are scornful of 'mystery' imagining they can understand the fulness of the knowledge of God by human intellect!
---Warwick on 7/20/09

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Jesus is Creator, (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16.)-Creator of every created thing, therefore not a creature. Also not the condute 'through' which God created as some claim. This is shown by the fact that the same word 'through' is used, in relation to God as Creator.

The NT writers described both Jesus and God as Creator, one and the same.

Jesus calls Himself Almighty God in Revelation 1:11,17, 2:8 & 22:13- the Alpha & the Omega, First and Last, Beginning and End-linking himself directly to Elohim in the first sentence of Genesis 1!

Jesus is 'firstborn' i.e. preeminent over all creation, because He is God who made it all!
---Warwick on 7/20/09

Scott, my sons were qualitatively equal to me from the point of conception. Were yours?

Likewise using the human term 'Son' God says Jesus is equal to Him.

Of whom else did God say 'This is my Son' Matt.3:17?

Who else could say 'I am the way the truth and the life there is no way to the Father except through me.' John 14:6

Who else called God 'My Father' John 17 causing His enemies to try to kill him 'because in doing so He was 'making himself equal with God.' Jesus did not correct them.

Jesus says He deserves equal honour to the Father John 5:23. What 'son' can claim this?

Were any 'sons' executed for blasphemy, for calling themselves God?
---Warwick on 7/20/09

Classic, Neo-Platonic, trinitarian rhetoric. Warwick explains the 'trinity' dogma using Neo-Platonic 'metaphysical' terms to reconcile the relationship between the 'Father' and 'Son'.

The same 'nature' philosophy seen in the non-Biblical writings of Hellenic philosophers such as Plato.

Warwick is not quoting scripture (7/20/09), there are none to support Plato's metaphysical philosophy. Neo-Platonist trinitarians are forced to go to the likes of Plato's philosophy, because it helps them to understand God in terms of a 3 in 1 deity.
---David8318 on 7/20/09


Once again the argument was made that simply 'Calling Jesus "Son" establishes his equality with the Father.'

I'm in full agreement with you, that to understand the significance behind the term "Son" or "Son of God" being attributed to others (in the verses I have cited) one needs to examine the context.

But the fact remains that simply referring to Christ as Son doesn't establish his equality with the Father, anymore than referring to angels or men as "Sons of God makes them equal to the God.

It's a silly premise, and one that doesn't deserve the time spent discussing it. Surely there is a more compelling argument for a triune God than that.

State your case.
---scott on 7/20/09

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Scott, that Jesus is God the Son does not rest upon any one word, chapter, or book of Scripture, but is the only possible conclusion from the flow of OT and NT.


The son of a horse is a horse, so the son is the same 'kind', qualitatively equal with the parent.

Likewise a human's son is human, the same 'kind', qualitatively equal with the parent. Made in God's image.

Likewise God's Son is of one substance with the Father. 'God from God, Light from Light, very God from very God, begotten, not made', the same 'kind.'

I do not 'hang my hat' upon this one point as Scripture paints a picture of exactly who Jesus is, God the Son.

No point I make stands alone, it does not have to.
---Warwick on 7/20/09

Scott, I don't think I failed to understand what you wrote. When the word "son" is used, you have to read it in context to what the passage is talking about. Son, does not mean the same in every passage. Even "Son" with capital letters is different. Begotten "Son" is also different. The "sons of God" can refer to angelic host. The "sons of God" can refer to all of God's children. Each case where son is mentioned has to be read by it's context, the time it was spoken, to whom it was spoken to, and why it was spoken of.
What you are doing is arguing by picking and choosing. Anyone who just wants to discredit the deity of Christ does that.
---MarkV. on 7/20/09

MarkV, "The Son of God"

You failed to read what my comments were in response to. Without qualification Warwick stated that:

"Jesus being called 'Son' means He is equal with God."
(Warwick on 7/14/09)

Obviously that shows a lack of understanding of God's word regarding the word "Son" even "Son of God."

The bible makes explicitly clear that Christ is the unique Son of God in that he alone is Lord of Lord, King and redeemer, the one seated "at the right hand of God."

But referring to him as "Son" does not make him God.

If you are in agreement with warwick, I'll let you two attempt to square his statement above with the rest of Gods word.
---scott on 7/19/09

Scott, now you have taken the word "son" to show that everywhere son is mentioned it doesn't mean that Jesus is the Son of God. Again you take each word out of context for which it was intended and have given the words new meanings.
Each passage has its on context, and each has to be taken individually in order to know why that word was used. Certain words have many meanings depending on who is writing and what is been talked about. But you again use it as an advantage to strip Christ of His deity, just as the heretics did in the early church. You have convinced yourself, but people who know how to interpret Scripture will not fall for your idea's.
---MarkV. on 7/18/09

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Isaiah 43:3 The Lord God is 'Saviour.' Also vs. 11.Luke 1:47 God is Saviour.

In Titus 2:13 Jesus is '..great God and Saviour.' Also John 4:42.

Isaiah 40:28 God is the 'Creator.', and Psalm 148:5.

In Colossians 1:16, John 1:3 Jesus is Creator.

Isaiah 44:6 God is the first and the last.

Revelation 2:8 Jesus is the First and the Last, 'who died and came to life again.'!!

Revelation 1:8 Almighty God is the Alpha and the Omega.

Revelation 22:13 Jesus is the Alpha & the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

AntiTrinitarians have 2 Creators, 2 Saviours, 2 Alphas and Omega's, 2 Firsts and Lasts-2 Gods!
---Warwick on 7/18/09


Sorry, I'm not quite sure what point you are making. But since it appears directed at me... I'd be happy to respond if you could clarify a bit.
---scott on 7/17/09

Scott, John 5: 17,18 regards the Jews wanting to kill Jesus because He called God 'My Father', making Himself equal with God.

Are you proposing they would have reacted the same if Jesus call God 'our Father?'

If a lunatic called God 'my Father', people would smile and walk away. However Jesus is the one who showed His deity with miracles, confronted the religious, defeating them every time. This is the one who referrring too Himself said' Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in 3 days. But there is a problem here isn't there? Acts 13:30 says God raised Jesus from the dead. So who raised Jesus, Jesus Himself or God? Problematic for antiTrinitarians but not for the Trinitarian , as God and Jesus are one and the same.
---Warwick on 7/16/09

"Indeed Scott...does God call any creature my Son."
(Warwick 7/15/09)

To David:
(Minor fulfillment in David, major fulfillment in Christ, Acts 4:24-26)

"Jehovah said unto me, thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee." Psalms 2:7 ASV

To Solomon:

"I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son."
2 Sa 7:12-14 ASV

"Solomon...shall build my house...I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father." 1 Chron 28:6 ASV

"He...will be my son, and I will be his father." 1 Ch 22:10
---scott on 7/16/09

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"Adam, the son of God." Luke 3:38 ASV

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." Rom 8:14 ASV
---scott on 7/15/09

Not understanding the Marriage,Divorce and remarriage is giving them a hard time Scott. You may not see it either...but,realizing a breach... you won't buck scripture. Heb 8:10.
Typically Son's,(Daughters)are the expected result of a marriage. The New Covenant Heb 8:8-10,Jer 31:31-33...explains it....but, to those who just cannot accept it....they have look for another way in....skewing their understanding from the first.
Galatians 4:5
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Hebrews 11:21
---Trav on 7/16/09

"Indeed Scott does any creature call God My Father?"
(Warwick on 7/15/09)

"But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father, we are the clay, and thou our potter, and we all are the work of thy hand." Isaiah 64:8 ASV

"For thou art our Father...our Redeemer from everlasting is thy name." Isaiah 63:16 ASV

"Thou hast seen how that Jehovah thy God bare thee, as a man doth bear his son, in all the way that ye went..." Deut. 1:31 ASV
---scott on 7/16/09

Scott FF Bruce, the noted NT scholar has a comment relevant to your attitude upon church councils :

"The NT books did not become authoritative for the Church because they were formally included in a canonical list, on the contrary, the Church included them in her canon because she already regarded them as divinely inspired, recognising their innate worth and generally apostolic authority, direct or indirect. [Church] councils [did] not impose something new upon the Christian communities but codif[ied] what was already the general practice of those communities." ["The New Testament Documents: Are they reliable?" IVP 1960]

Couldn't have said better meself!
---Warwick on 7/15/09

For it is a fact that the more unbelievers pour scorn on Him, so much the more does He make His Godhead evident. The things which they, as men, rule out as impossible, He plainly shows to be possible, that which they deride as unfitting, His goodness makes most fit, and things which these wiseacres laugh at as "human" He by His inherent might declares divine. Thus by what seems His utter poverty and weakness on the cross He overturns the pomp and parade of idols, and quietly and hiddenly wins over the mockers and unbelievers to recognize Him as God.-- St. Athanasius (a.d. 297 - 373)
---MIchael on 7/15/09

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Scott I think you are running out of steam. That is the weakest argument from you so far.

Hebrews 1:3 says 'the Son is the radiance of God's glory, the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word.'

Vs 5 'For to which of God's angels did God ever say, "You are my Son... Or again I will be his Father and he will be my Son.

Indeed Scott does any creature call God MyFather,does God call any creature mySon.'

Consider Matthew 3:17 this is my Son Greek o vios used specifically of and only of Jesus. Man has sons, God calls his followers sons but only Jesus the Messiah is The Son.
---Warwick on 7/15/09

Passing by, then, these reasoners, who are unable to know the substance even of the soul, which is invisible, and therefore are very far indeed from knowing that the substance of the one and only God, that is, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, remains ever not only invisible, but also unchangeable, and that hence it possesses true and real immortality, Augustine, Saint (354-430)
---MIchael on 7/15/09

"Jesus being called 'Son' means He is equal with God."
(Warwick on 7/14/09)

Really? Then he's in good company.

"The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and they took them wives of all that they chose." Gen 6:2

"...When the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them." Job 1:6 ASV Also Job 2:1,2

"When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy." Job 38:7 ASV

"Adam, the son of God." Luke 3:38 ASV

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." Rom 8:14 ASV
---scott on 7/15/09

1/2 For some are in the habit of carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, whom ye must flee as ye would wild beasts. For they are ravening dogs, who bite secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, inasmuch as they are men who can scarcely be cured. There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit, both made and not made, God existing in flesh, true life in death, both of Mary and of God, first passible and then impassible--
Ignatius [a.d. 30107.]
---MIchael on 7/15/09

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Scott, Trinity is a innescapable conclusion from Scripture.

The Father is God.

AND: Jesus being called 'Son' means He is equal with God.

He called God His Father (John 5:17,18,) 'making Himself equal with God.'

Revelation 1:18 He calls Himself 'the First and the Last. I am the Living One, I was dead and behold I am alive for ever and ever.'

If this is not Jesus calling Himself the Alpha & the Omega (the First & the Last), therefore Almighty God, you are claiming imortal, eternal God died and rose again! Bizarre!

The Holy Spirit is also God for numerous reasons, e.g. He can be blasphemed. Blasphemy is an offence only against the person of God, not against any 'force.'
---Warwick on 7/14/09

Gen1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Jn1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

There's two
---steven-rem7000 on 7/14/09

MarkV- "All the passages"?

Just one that speaks of a triune God would suffice. Surely there is one.

I've posed questions based on scripture with occasional comments on the Hebrew and Greek and translational issues along with historical considerations.

The trinitarian bears the burden of proof because, not only is the doctrine extra-biblical, but the presumptuous claim that everlasting life is dependent on belief in this doctrine is also not found in scripture, anywhere. That was proffered at the council of Constantinople 381.

Speaking of 381, if 1st century Christians believed in the trinity, at the first opportunity to ward off "heresy" (Nicea 325), why was the HS not added for another 56 years?
---scott on 7/12/09

Scott, what difference would it had made if I provided all the passages? None whatsoever. You are already close minded in your doctrines and nothing will change it. To this minute you haven't agreed with anyone answering you on any blog. So what can I look forward to? Nothing. So I put my answers in words so that you could know what we believe, and if it accures to you that you are interested you will look for the Truth and you will find it in God's Word.
---MarkV. on 7/11/09

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The will of the Father...

Matthew 7:21
Matthew 10:32-33
Matthew 11:27
Matthew 26:39
Mark 14:36
Luke 11:2 (not Jesus' will, but the Father's)
Luke 22:42
John 5:30
John 6:39
John 14:26
Acts 13:36
Galatians 1:4
---Steveng on 7/10/09

Scott Scripture is not a list of doctrines but a revelation of the truth, and power of God, from the beginning of Genesis to the close of Revelation.

We understand there are many concepts contained therein, understood by studying the flow of Scripture, as Scripture interprets Scripture. No doctrine of Scripture is based upon only one word, or sentence.

The Holman Bible Dictionary says (p1505) 'The Bible, however, gives no formal definition of sin.' We understand the complexity, and all pervasiveness of sin as it is revealed, first in Adam and then throughout Scripture.

In the same way we come to understand the Father is God, the Son is God, as is the Holy Spirit. This has been clearly shown by numerous bloggers here.
---Warwick on 7/10/09


You offer no scriptural support for your conclusions, so it's perplexing when you assert, "You may not like it, but it's scripture." You said:

"He is One person of the Godhead." Chapter and verse?

"It does not change [their duties] who they are in deity, all three are One Godhead." Chapter and verse?

"All three were from all eternity." Chapter and verse?

The trinity doctrine falls apart when language of subordination is introduced. If one of the three is "in charge" and the others "submit" you no longer can argue equality and you really begin to describe three separate individuals, yes three Gods, rather than one.
---scott on 7/9/09

Scott, in deity, Christ is God. He is One person of the Godhead. In this concept, God the Father is in charge. What He created that has fallen the Son will restore. Not everyone will be restored back but those who place their faith and trust in Christ. It does not change His deity because He submits to the Father. It is His duty to do what the Father tells Him. The same can be said of the God the Spirit. His duties are different then the Son's. Yet because of their duties, it does not change who they are in deity, all three are One Godhead. All three were from all eternity. Now this you might not like, but it is in Scripture. In this plan of God, all three play a different role.
---MarkV. on 7/8/09

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At 1 Cor 15:28 Christ is spoken of as being in a subjective position after his resurrection and glorification in heaven.

"And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all." 1 Cor 15:28 ASV
---scott on 7/6/09

The answer is NO! Jesus Christ has the same intrinsic authority as the Father [John 10:25-30....Hope everyone has a good weekend....+++
---catherine on 7/4/09

Somehow "submit" doesn't seem to describe the relationship. It's more like they are naturally of one mind.

Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

HOWEVER, on earth, He had to accept some limitations of humanity, at times making a DELIBERATE choice to submit to the Father.
(e.g.the temptation in the wilderness and his suffering in Gethsamene)

The Holy Spirit "whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things..," Jn 14:26
seems equal in power and divinity with Jesus and the Father.
---Donna66 on 7/3/09


Honestly, and with respect, if you were to read the account of Christ's baptism to someone (perhaps on a deserted island) who had no preconceived notion of a triune God, do you think they would naturally come to that conclusion?

The account certainly mentions the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, but there is nothing there to support your conclusion that each of the three are the Almighty, or that they exist as a mysterious three in one.

This is a classic example of reading into scriptures what's not actually there. Eisegetics.
---scott on 7/3/09

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amand- God is One God, but three Persons: God the Father, Jesus Christ the only- begotten Son of God, and the Holy Spirit of God. When Jesus was baptized by John, the Holy Spirit of God descended like a dove & God the Father spoke from Heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matthew 3:16-17
---Betty on 7/3/09

"And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all." 1 Cor 15:28 ASV

"Subject" Greek "Hypotasso"

Strong's G5293

1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject
---scott on 7/2/09

"He must submit to himself!" Amanda says. Well, we can talk to ourselves and think, then act in submission to what we have been thinking and saying . . . this would be submitting to ourselves. And our bodies submit to themselves . . . like a stubbed toe can have the rest of the body submitting to the poor toesie (o: And other parts of the body can send out signals that have the rest of the body submitting to, say, an itchy back or a hungry stomach. But, of course, our bodies submit mainly to our brains. But God is so more than our bodies > He is the Family-Love Being of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. And the Father, at times, also submits to His Son . . . to what His Son has prayed > John chapter seventeen, Luke 23:34-43.
---Bill_bila5659 on 7/1/09

"Must" can have *rust* (o: It's not that Jesus *has* to, but He so loves our Heavenly Father, that He is pleased to submit to God the Father. He is God's Son, and a son is submissive to a father, in a good relationship. And this is partly for being our *example* of how *we* need to be always submissive to our Heavenly Father. Also, Jesus is the Head of the Bride Church. He is submissive to our Father, in order to obtain our spiritual blessings and how our Father takes care of things in this world for our good. For our sake, Jesus needs to coordinate Himself with the Father and how He has all things working for our good. So, He's obeying for our good, too. So, THANK You, Jesus (o:
---Bill_bila5659 on 6/30/09

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Yes. He must submit to himself! (Be true to himself.) If that makes any sense.

Sounds confusing, doesn't it? Sounds contradictory, doesn't it? Some verses can provide some insight.

One verse is where Jesus says, Why do you call me good? There is none good, but he who is above. (Something like that.)

Also he said that he did everything based on God's authority, or something like that.

God and Jesus are One. You can't do something, and then not do something at the same time. Whatever is a part of you is going to do what you are doing.
---amand6348 on 6/30/09

Yes, He does. John 14:28 Jesus said, "...I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I."
---Betty on 6/30/09

That's like asking "Can the three strings to a unison on a piano be tuned to different notes?"

It wouldn't be a piano then, would it?

Answer me this: Why would He not?
---Cluny on 6/29/09

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