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Trinity Or Oneness Theology

What is the difference in the Trinity and Oneness Theology?

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 ---Darlene_1 on 7/4/09
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"Ranking Him among things originated...Arius and his fellows revolted from the truth, and used, when they commenced this heresy, to go about with dishonest phrases which they had got together...In such language do the disgraceful men sport and revel, and liken God to men, pretending to be Christians, but changing God's glory "unto an image made like to corruptible men." (Athanasius, 'Oratory about Arius')

The more things change, the more they don't!
---Marc on 7/9/09


I see you race to conceal the JW belief that Jesus was once an angel called Michael by throwing in a red herring.

Both Trinitarians and JWs believe that Jesus created the cosmos. The difference is that for you guys Jesus is a created creature himself. Thus, once an angel, a creature, then, somehow, a created creator, then Jesus.

What nonsense!
---Marc on 7/9/09

"The difference is that "oneness" theology is truth,(as long as it is in line with the bible) and "Trinity" theology is man made philosophy."---Donald on 7/9/09

This one made me laugh, especially the part about "as long as it is in line with the bible" which says that some of oneness doctrine might not be. Guess I'll go out and buy me a bunch of long dresses, throw away my makeup and pants, stop cutting my hair, and throw away the jewelry my husband bought me and wants me to wear. These are just some of the false doctrine that oneness teaches. Holiness is within.
---SusieB on 7/9/09

Neo-Platonist Marc has lost the plot and the argument. His failure is reflected in the fact that his assumption that Jesus is a 'Creator' and thus- 'How can the 'Creator' be a creature', is everyone else's paradox.

(Marc 7/7/09- 'the Creator created an angel, later called Jesus, who actually created the cosmos')

True Christians do not believe Christ is the Creator, or created 'the cosmos'. It stands to reason.

Marc's rendering of Christ's words at Matthew 19:4-6 would evidently read- 'Did you not read that "I" created them from the beginning made them male and female... what "I have" yoked together let no man put apart.'
---David8318 on 7/9/09

The difference is that "oneness" theology is truth,(as long as it is in line with the bible) and "Trinity" theology is man made philosophy.
---Donald on 7/9/09

Marc referred to "...Scott's incessant charge of orthodox Trinitarian Christianity being influenced by Plato."

To make this "incessant charge" I suppose I would have to have made it at least once, no?

Where and when?

Your credibility might be heightened if a sense of accuracy supported your comments.
---scott on 7/9/09

Timothy "Is Jesus God?"

Consider the Jewish/historical, and biblical view of the title "God."

The Hebrew word for God ("El" or "Elohim") is a term that pre-Christian Jews and Christ's disciples knew had an application with the Almighty, angels (Ps 8:5/Heb 2:7), men (Ex 7:1, Jn 10:34, 35) and the Messiah (Is 9:6).

The Jews knew that Moses and the angels were not the Almighty though they were referred to as "God(s)." As strict monotheists they knew the term could be used in a relative way.

Jesus is appropriately referred to as "God," "Divine," "a god" etc. but, as with others scripturally referred to as such, he is not the Almighty God.
---scott on 7/9/09

My logic is suspect!? Your logic would hold more weight if the verse you cite, John 5:23 would include the HolySpirit. After all the discussion is about blasphemy of the HolySpirit- did you miss something?

(Pharisee 7/8/09- 'all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.')

Where does it say we must render "honor to the Father, Son AND the HolySpirit"?? Your trinity theory would be more 'logical' if there was such a scripture. Can you show me one?

You need to do better than that Pharisee.
---David8318 on 7/9/09

Grace brother!
---larry on 7/8/09

There you go again calling me Brother talking "grace between brethren." Someone who denies Christ is NOT my Brother, and neither are YOU if you call them Brothers. Hope that's clear enough. This "can't we all just get along" Christianity your pushing is GARBAGE!

I call mockers and heretics what they prove themselves to be, if you want to lie to them for the sake of appearances and call them brother's be my guest, but guess who's cause you're advancing. The Apostle Paul put blasphemers out of the church, I guess he was wrong too right Larry? 1Corinthians 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?
---Pharisee on 7/9/09

Bobby3 'God lacked wisdom at some point?'

The Almighty has always possessed wisdom but Justin Martyr (and other church "Fathers") applied Proverbs 8:22 to Jesus, as the personified expression of the Father's wisdom reflected by our Lord Jesus Christ. (John 5:19, 30).

He cited the Greek Septuagint rendering: "The Lord made me the beginning of his ways..." (Dialogue with Trypho, 51)

The LXX employs the word EKTISE (from KTIZO) meaning created. See BDAG or another Greek Lexicon.

Here Justin applies a verse that calls the Word a created being, since the Septuagint literally says "the Lord created me the beginning of his ways..."
---scott on 7/9/09


You state: "...Jesus is 'fully God and fully man' (NOT a Bible teaching)..." [empahsis added]

Be advised that I am not of "trinitarian" descent. With that said, I'd like to know how you reconcile the following verses...

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
---BruceB on 7/9/09

"Blasphemy against HolySpirit 'will not be forgiven', but will when speaking against 'the Son of Man'. Thus, Jesus & HS are NOT 'equal'."
That's some shoddy logic bub.
If not equal why did Jesus say that if the same honor is not given to him that is given the Father that the Father wasn't honored?

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23

even as they honour the Father. What does that mean? It means (kathos) in the same manner or proportion. What manner do we honor the father? As creator and originator of all things.
---Pharisee on 7/8/09

Scripture was written so that it could be understood by common people... it is simple to understand if we don't try pigon hole it in into a hodge-podge of theologies.
I'm not a one-ness nor a three-ness, I'm just a simple witness

Scripture tells us that The Father is Spirit and those who would worship Him will do it in spirit AND truth...
Jesus, Immanual, "God with US", God's only begotten, was concieved by the holy spirit. This is the same spirit that leads us into all wisdom and truth... it is the power that filled Jesus at His baptism as evidenced by the Dove resting upon him... Jesus is a physical being.. a vessel that contained both the spirit and power of God... in all of HIS fullness.
---allan2777 on 7/8/09

Susie B, our friend asks - - if Jesus is God, then why was He baptized. To John the Baptist, Jesus said, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness," in Matthew 3:15. But the previous verse shows John considered Jesus to be greater than he was, therefore more than human, we can see. So, why did Jesus submit to being baptized > how did this "fulfill all righteousness"? Well, I think of how Jesus so superior is caring about such as us humans.

So, this shows me how Jesus is *not conceited* > plus, Jesus is so humble that He submitted to being baptized . . . as our *example*, taking the lead in how He desires us all to be humble, mainly by loving all people like He does.
---Bill_bila5659 on 7/8/09

David you write 'Trinitarian mantra- Jesus is 'fully God and fully man' (NOT a Bible teaching)...'

Incorrect, Jesus is God-Ho Theos, Creator, Redeemer, Alpha & Omega etc.

Hebrews 2:4-18 says Jesus, born of Mary is man-sharing in our humanity, made like His brothers in every way, suffered, was tempted.

God is Spirit not flesh but dwelt in Jesus the man like no other human. He is God manifest (def. shown plainly) in flesh 1 Tim. 3:16. God (Spirit ) in human flesh. Therefore fully God,fully man.

Before you say these words do not appear in Scripture let me remind you, a Jehovah's Witness, 'Jehovah' does not appear in Scripture-by your reasoning He must not exist.

BTW you use 'mantra' incorrectly.
---Warwick on 7/8/09

From David's and Scott's incessant charge of orthodox Trinitarian Christianity being influenced by Plato, it's obvious neither have a degree in philosophy or have even read Plato's works. Plato made no such use of the concept.

On the contrary, it's their belief that Jesus was once an angel and that this angel was in fact the creator which is the truly Plato-inspired structure. David's Jehovah's Witness pushes this bizarre "theology". This belief system was stolen from Philo by the JWs. Philo was a 1st century Jew influenced greatly by Plato.

Don't let David and Scott deceive you with scare tales of Plato. It's they who are the borrowers of Plato with their belief that Jesus was formally an angel who created the cosmos.
---Marc on 7/8/09

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David 8318: The answer to the blaspheme question is simple, do you believe Jesus to be God? If your answer is no, then by all means blaspheme away. If your answer is yes then I would opt not to blaspheme him if I were you. I believe Jesus to be God and you can read Josh McDowells "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" for my, and a few billion others defense of that position. Regardless, all I need to know about you is if you believe that Jesus is God? Yes or No?
---TIMOTHY on 7/8/09

the first sentence is incomprehensible and has no relation to anything I said. And maybe the non-sequitur heretic comment was for another Larry. I can't find the suggestion anywhere from anybody.

I did and always suggest peace between the brethren and as anyone else would conclude from reading my entry I simply suggest we watch "ourselves" present party included. Our words, anger and cynicism are all on display. In short, your words are your witness. Grace brother!
---larry on 7/8/09

'I know Neo-Platonist trinitarians worship a 3 in 1 god! My previous post explained how they do this.

(Warwick 7/6/09- '3 in one, not 3 separate god's.')'

David are you saying the above if from something I wrote?
---Warwick on 7/8/09

David you missed the point, or evaded it more likely.

Having defined blasphemy from a reliable, highly respected source, I pointed out that as it is possible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit He is therefore by definition God.

Blasphemy is a sin, but forgiveable, but apparently (Matt. 12:31) not that against the Holy Spirit. One can blaspheme Jesus or the Father and can be forgiven but not if the subject of your blasphemy is the Holy Spirit. Why is this so? I don't know, maybe someone does?

Your reference to Matt.12:31 is odd, as this is the quote I originally gave, which is in line with that which I have written.

I didn't answer your question as it made no sense, as I had already 'answered' it, before you asked it!
---Warwick on 7/8/09

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Trinitarianism is the belief that there is one God in three persons. They are God the Father, God the Son - Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit, the Nicene and Athanasian creeds were specifically written to address this issue. The Bible makes numerous references to God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Modalism: God is one person in three modes. This is sometimes explained by saying that a man can have three hats, or a man can be a son to his father, a father to his children, and an employee to his employer.
Monarchism: God is one person.
Jeremiah 2:12-13, Mathew 7:15, 15:14, 2Timothy 4:3-4, 2John 1:9-11 / 1Timothy 6:3-4.
---Glenn on 7/8/09

nd about that also is confusing, I mean if Jesus is not God, if all things were created by Him or through Him and He was created, yet all things were created by Him, yet He was created...umm How did God create Him without Wisdom or the Word through which all was created?..How did God create Wisdom without umm Wisdom?
---MIchael on 7/8/09

Michael, maybe I mis-understood you here...but Jesus was not created. He is the ONLY begotten of the Father.

In the beginning was the WORD, and the word was with God, and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
---kathr4453 on 7/8/09

Larry anybody who denies Christ his proper place of honor is not a Christian. Jesus said it himself. (John 5:23) And if you're calling these heretics Brothers once again (as the last time) I have to tell you you're no Brother of mine.
---Pharisee on 7/8/09

I know Neo-Platonist trinitarians worship a 3 in 1 god! My previous post explained how they do this.

(Warwick 7/6/09- '3 in one, not 3 separate god's.')

Platonizing 'Early Church Fathers' couldn't worship the God of the Bible as a triad, we all know why because the Bible states God is 'one God'. (Deut.6:4)

Plato's philosophy gave trinitarian theologians, the ability to reconcile the irreconcilable- to make a threefold God appear like 'one God'. By philosophical reasoning they claim that three persons can be 'one God' while retaining their individuality!

Trinitarian mantra- Jesus is 'fully God and fully man' (NOT a Bible teaching), is their Neo-Platonic, 'metaphysical' way of explaining the trinity dogma.
---David8318 on 7/8/09

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Blasphemy against HolySpirit 'will not be forgiven', but will when speaking against 'the Son of Man'. Thus, Jesus & HS are NOT 'equal'.

The absence of Warwick's response to my answer to his original question is evidence either of his acceptance of this fact or he can't answer.

(Warwick 7/6/09- 'it is an inescapable conclusion, the Holy Spirit, being blasphemable is God, the third person of the trinity.)

Okay, if Neo-Platonists follow this doctrine above, it must follow that 'Therefore it is an inescapable conclusion, Jesus Christ the 2nd person of the trinity is also blasphemable'. After all, they are 'co-equal'?

Of course, this is false trinitarian reasoning & contrary to Christ's teaching- Matthew 12:31.
---David8318 on 7/8/09

Scott: Is Jesus God according to your interpretation of the scriptures?
---TIMOTHY on 7/8/09

scott: "He is not eternal..."

Regarding your reference to Proverbs 8:22, you indicate that Christ can be identified with wisdom as portrayed in this chapter, focusing particularly on the idea that Christ/wisdom was 'produced' by God. You use this to argue that, therefore, Christ is neither eternal nor Creator. Instead, Christ was some sort of created tool by which God made everything else. This, however, leads to the conclusion that God lacked wisdom at some point, does it not?

(scott, are you a JW?)
---Bobby3 on 7/7/09

Gen 1:26 pharasee. If u read this u will c ~let us make man in our image.~ plural. There is some things that man can not answer. I do know that if u seek god with ur whole heart, the lord will not dissapoint u. I hope u find peace. Sunnie.
---Sunnie on 7/8/09

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If Jesus is King of Kings and He is coming with His saints, then I have questions about Zech 14:1-9, Who is the Lord my God? (v.5)
It seems to contradict 1 Thes 3:13, I mean if Jesus is not God.
And another thing confuses me about God, if He created Jesus, the Word, the Wisdom, and the Son of God. Does this mean there was a point in infinity that God was not a Father? did not have Wisdom?, did not have the Word to speak? and about that also is confusing, I mean if Jesus is not God, if all things were created by Him or through Him and He was created, yet all things were created by Him, yet He was created...umm How did God create Him without Wisdom or the Word through which all was created?..How did God create Wisdom without umm Wisdom?
---MIchael on 7/8/09

Some more things confuse me, I mean if Jesus is not God: Jesus said God would send the Comforter in John 14:26, but you said Jesus sends the Comforter as in John 16:7
and for the matter, What did Jesus mean by another Comforter?(Jn 14:16) and proceeding from the Father?(Jn 15:26)
The Judge thing confuses me also, if Jesus is not God: Ps 96:13, Isa 33:22, Rom 3:6, Heb 10:30, 12:23,Rev 16:5-7, 20:12 with Jn 5:22
I guess that's enough confusion for now.
---MIchael on 7/8/09

Pharisee, settle down brother.
"you never answered the questions in a satisfactory manner?" "You might be a christian one day?". Yipes.

If Cliff is not a christian do you really think he'll be convinced to do so by such a rebuke? Remarks seen as high handed are likely to be resented and rebuffed.
We are mostly christians discussing issues of the day along with a mix of those seeking the truth and a few who may have the will of Satan in their hearts and are looking to create doubt and debate without end.
Please be aware that christians are being watched and judged by what we say. God bless
---larry on 7/7/09

Non-trinitarians like David and Scott have this bizarre Platonist/pagan philosophy, which takes its lead from Philo, that the Creator created an angel, later called Jesus, who actually created the cosmos. This in effect says that the Creator is a creature.

What Platonic nonsense!
---Marc on 7/7/09

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Scott in the OT God is Creator, in the NT Jesus is!

Colossians l:15 says Jesus is Creator of all things, of all created things. He is therefore God, not created.

John 1:3 echoes this but you say 'through' means he was the condute through whom God created, not the Creator. Wrong!

Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10 both use the same Greek word ('dia'-through) to decscribe God's creative activities. Hebrews 2:10 " was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists...'

The creation was done 'through' Jesus and 'through' God, negating your idea.

Jesus is the Creator therefore God.
---Warwick on 7/7/09

Brief History

The roots of Oneness Theology can be traced in the North American Pentecostal movement during the early 1900s. During a camp meeting in Arroyo Seco, California in the late 1913 or early 1914 conducted by the Assemblies of God (AG), one minister by the name of John G. Scheppe revealed that during his night of meditation it was revealed to him that baptism must be done "in the name of Jesus only" and not "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

What did JESUS say about this???
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
---kathr4453 on 7/7/09

Since the dawn of the Christian church this arguement has been going on. JESUS said.

Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

In Revelaton 5 both the Father and the son are worshipped. We can only worship GOD. Two beings who are one according to scripture both are worshipped. Yet they are seperate.
---Samuel on 7/7/09

A friend asked, "If Jesus is God, why would He have to be baptized?" Any thoughts on this?
---SusieB on 7/7/09

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If you Jesus deniers had as much diligence to answer simple questions as you do to be mockers we wouldn't even be having this disagreement right now. The last time we had this discussion I gave you questions and you never answered them in a satisfactory manner. Not one of you. (David scott, and 1st Cliff) The post expired with objections unbeaten and uncontested. In grade you got and F, you didn't try. You failed to explain how Jesus achieved the glory of God when God has said he would not give his glory to another.

Stay on the turnip truck Cliff, you might be a Christian someday. You deny Christ and choose the safety of you're denial, but the time in which you may call that a safe place will pass away. You will mourn when you see him.
---Pharisee on 7/7/09


I wasn't denying that Jesus was baptized in the Jordan river, my point was that no scripture says that "God" was baptized in the Jordan. I'm personally not interested in adding a theological gloss to the inspired text. I believe it can speak for itself.

Regarding Erhman- Though I've never actually read his books, I am familiar with his "message." I believe he, perhaps, has some valid points about translational issues (re the KJV for example) but I completely disagree with his conclusions that cast doubt on the accuracy (possibly even inspiration - though he doesn't come out and actually say so) of God's word or that Christ was who he claimed to be, the Son of God.
---scott on 7/7/09

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
To sin is to fall short of the glory of God.
1)Yes/No (if no why?)

Jesus was sinless?
2) Yes/No (if no why?)

If yes Jesus then achieved the glory of God?
3) Yes/NO (if no why?)

God said his glory he would not give to another (Isaiah 42:8) and that his word doesn't return void (Is. 55:11) Why has God allowed the scripture to be broken, and why should I trust your God who can't keep his words?

Why was Jesus permitted to encroach God's glory and seize it for himself? Why did he speak of a prexistent glory "before the world was," in John 17:7?
---Pharisee on 7/7/09

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts,
I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

1.) Why do two speak with one voice claiming to be one God? Both are claiming to be the first and the last why is this?

2.) If not Jesus who is the Lord's redeemer, "the Lord of Hosts?"

3.) Why did Jesus use this Old Testament saying of God about himself in Revelation 1:11? "the first and the last?" He says it again in Isaiah 48:12
---Pharisee on 7/7/09

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Come ye near unto me, hear ye this, I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Isaiah 48:16

1.) Who is speaking in this verse God or somebody else?

2.) Why is God saying "the Lord God, and his Spirit has sent him?"

3.) Why does God need to send himself?

4.) Where did God send himself and for what purpose?
---Pharisee on 7/7/09

...When did 'us' mean three???"

When did "us" not mean more than one? Equating the royal "we" (an ancestral reference) of the creature Catherine the Great to the Holy "US" of God the Creator is profane.

Fallen off a turnip truck? Maybe not. Tail chasing? Most definitely -- yes!
---Leon on 7/7/09

Scott you talk of others 'reading theology into scripture', but do this yourself. For example you quoted Rev. 1:1 'The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him..' Your point was that Jesus cannot be God if God gave Him this revelation.

You are greatly overreaching, imposing a meaning which is not there.

You assume knowledge of the Godhead unknown to man. Why should not God give something to the Son? From Genesis 1 we know the Godhead talks among itself- let us make man in our image!

Secondly there is no information given as to when God gave this revelation. Was it given when Jesus was on earth (when self-limited) or after His return to heaven? Doesnt say! Cont.
---Warwick on 7/7/09


Did Jesus exist before He was born?
Is He the Word of God?
Is He the Wisdom of God? (*)
Is He the Judge of the world?
Is He coming back with His saints?
Is He the only Saviour of mankind?
Is He the Light?
Did He send the Comforter?

YES to all of the above.

He is not eternal? He is not the Creator?
NO (Col 1:15, Rev 3:14, Prov 8:22, Micah 5:2)

All things were created through him as Jehovah's "Master Worker."

(*) Prov 8:22 "Jehovah produced [Heb Qanah] me as the beginning of his way." Qanah- Strong's H7069- "to get, acquire, create, possess."
---scott on 7/6/09

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Pharisee, Do you think I just fell off the turnip truck?
Not one of those scriptures even remotely alludes to a trinity,three, triad etc...
"Let us make man in our image" When did "us" mean three???
Elohim (plural of God) is plural of majesty not number.
Like Catherine the great referring to herself as "WE Catherine"
Tell me one bible translation that says "In the beginning Gods (plural) created heaven and earth"???
Elohim is plural why not translate plural?? if it is?? Clue in!
---1st_cliff on 7/6/09

The difference is your salvation! If you take away the Deity of Christ, you will have to answer for it on judgement day. God help your soul.
---Corey on 7/6/09

Pharisee- 'Plural God, "Elohim."

A common misconception.

1. This is known as the "Plural of majesty." A Hebrew plural noun often denotes grandeur or prominence (without actually multiplying the one being referred to). For example Isaiah 19:4 refers to a "Cruel Lord" or "Master." The Hebrew word here is actually "Adonim," a plural noun translated in the singular.

2. This argument is problematic for trinitarians for another reason. Consider that "Melech" is Hebrew for king. When we refer to "Melechim," we are not speaking of three kings in one, we are referring to several kings. In reference to Elohim you'd really be talking about multiple God's, polytheism.
---scott on 7/6/09

Scott: Matthew 3:6 "Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River." NIV Then, Matthew 3:13 "Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John." NIV. So is your point that the English translation was wrong or that Jesus isn't God? Either way, it doesn't sound like the statement "God was baptized in the Jordan" was a loose cannon interpretation of the scriptures. Just out of curiosity, are you familiar with the writings of Bart D Ehrman?
---TIMOTHY on 7/6/09

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The most beautiful prayer in all of scripture, our assurance and the love between God the father and his son is in John 17. How can you possibly read and study this chapter and reject trinity theology? It explains where God is, his relationship with his son and his relationship with us.

I do know Jehovah's Witness, which is a lie straight from the pit of hell, reject the trinity which is exactly what Satan would have them do.

Is it just semantics or someone being hung up on only speaking the name of Jesus and stubborn as some middle schooler about ever uttering the word "holy spirit"?
---larry on 7/6/09

I've 'ignored' discussions about blaspheming the HolySpirit!? This was discussed in January! Warwick never answered my response but I'll reprint it for his benefit.

["blasphemy is 'against the character of God?" (Warwick 5/1/09)

But hang on a minute, Jesus said 'whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him'. Warwick has repeated his beloved mantra here many times 'Jesus is fully God and fully man'. So in saying 'blasphemy is against the character of God', he must also believe blasphemy against Jesus to be unforgivable, which is contrary to the teaching of Christ at Matthew 12:31.

Which is unforgivable: sin against the Holy Spirit, or sin against the Son of man? Which one is it?"]
---David8318 on 7/6/09

Here's another fact for thought you don't hear preached. Revelations4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices,and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne,which are the seven spirits of God.You see God can have as many spirits as pleases him to acomplish what he wants to. Revelations 5:6 And I beheld,and lo,in the midst of the throne and the four beasts,and in the midst of the elders,stood a lamb as it had been slain,having seven horns and seven eyes,which are the seven spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. We know,Colossians 2:8,9,10--and not after Christ.For in him dwelleth all of the fulness of the Godhead bodily.And ye are complete in him which is the head of all principality and power.
---Darlene_1 on 7/6/09

Trinity = God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit: Three manifestations of One Godhead. Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved.

Oneness (if you are referring to Apostolic Oneness) = Jesus the Father, Jesus the Son, and Jesus the Holy Spirit: Jesus is the name of God. You must be baptized and speak in tongues to be saved.

Some on these blogs may not know that both Trinitiarians and Oneness believers used to fellowship in the same churches years ago. There were both types of believers in the early Assembly of God churches as well as other penetecostal churches. Eventually, the Oneness left to form their own denominations.
---SusieB on 7/6/09

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Pharisee said:

"God came as a dove..."
What verse (anywhere) in God's word makes this statement?

"[God] baptized in the Jordan."
These words are also not found in any Greek manuscript.

This is a classic example of reading theology into scripture. I'll stick with God's word rather than man's.
---scott on 7/6/09

Samuel "Equality"

"For the divine nature was his from the first, yet he did not think to snatch at [harpagmos] equality with God." Phil 2:6 NEB

"Harpagmos" Strong's G725

1) the act of seizing, robbery
2) a thing seized
a) booty to deem anything a prize
b) a thing to be seized upon, to be held fast, retained

"...he did not grasp at equality with God." AT

"..he did not think that by force he should try to become equal with God." Weymouth

"No one will ever snatch [harpazo] them out of my care." John 10:28 REB

"What my Father has given one can wrest [harpazo]it from the Father." John 10:29 Complete Gospels
---scott on 7/6/09

point out the "original" reference to the trinity from the OT's first 4,000 years of history!


Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven, Genesis 19:24

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this, I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Isaiah 48:16

Just a few Cliff, there's more if you're willing to look. The Genesis creation account uses a plural to describe God "Elohim."
---Pharisee on 7/6/09

Lawerence: "...Acts 2 v's 37-41 which Fulfills Matt 28 v's 19-20..."

Will you please elaborate on how Acts 2:37-41 refutes the doctrine of the Trinity?

Regarding Pentecost, John's gospel records Jesus speaking of this particular event. For example, Jesus explains, "...for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you, but if I depart, I will send him unto you" (Jn 16:7). Notice what is being described: Jesus must 'depart' and then 'send' the Spirit. One thing should be clear from this: Jesus and this 'Comforter' are NOT the same person. Other references to the Comforter include Jn 14:16,26 and 15:26.
---Bobby3 on 7/6/09

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I have two arms, one left and one right, they move independently of each other however when I put them together they make one clapping noise. So which one is clapping, the left or the right? The point is this, you are arguing about arms when it is the whole body that matters, it is the union of all the parts. Call it a Trinity, call it three seperate entities, call it whatever you like but call it one. I don't see myself as two arms with a common body, I see myself as one body with two arms. Likewise, I'm not sure how the three are one I just know that they are. Three entities making up one God, two arms making one clap.
---TIMOTHY on 7/6/09

Good point Pharisee.

Yes men use natural illustration to try to present Spiritual truth. After all JESUS did it so since He is our instructor then we can follow His example.

The fact is the bible puts JESUS on par with the father as being equal. We must follow what the Bible says.
---Samuel on 7/6/09

I know there is God the father,That he has a son,named jesus,who also is God,and theres that persistent holy spirit, which is everywhere all the time.Now understanding this because jesus said there was one God,my God and your God,just might not be something we as humans can comprehend fully,and to go to blows over it is silly.I know God sent his son to die for me,that after jsus returned to the father ,the holy spirit came into the world,jesus had to leave first.I believe in the trinity,but dont fully understand it.Why? cause there is a God,a son,and a holy spirit,plainly written about in the bible.
---tom2 on 7/6/09

David as a trinitarian I believe in 1 God, not the pagan triad of Gods.

Within the 1 God exists God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, 3 in one, not 3 separate god's.

I am sure you agree the Father is God. So let us deal now with the Holy Spirit. The Holman Biblical dictionary defines blasphemy in the Biblical sense is 'an attitude of disrespect that finds expression in an act directed against the character of God.' As explained many times, and many times ignored by you, Jesus said blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. Therefore it is an inescapable conclusion, the Holy Spirit, being blasphemable is God, the third person of the trinity.
---Warwick on 7/6/09

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Cliff, etc.: Long before the existence of Egyptians, Hindu, etc., God said,"Let US make man in OUR image..." (Gen. 1:26-27)

Unfortunately, it's very true from antiquity to this present day, some people (by choice) never learn as they should --- just don't get it! (2 Tim. 3:7) No doubt, it's a mental condition caused by SIN! Very sad. :(
---Leon on 7/5/09

Oneness Is ONE God only. Oneness the Apostolic Church borned on the day of Pentecost Acts 2 v's 37-41 which Fulfills Matt 28 v's 19-20. This 2-3 god's & or persons in god-head theory came from deceiving light 2nd Corin 11 v's 14-15 started with constantine he embraced a type christianity which devised r-catholocism (Rev 17 v's 4-6)the first trin-church which started the father-son & holy spirit baptism. NONE found in scriptures was baptized that way. All were baptized in The Name of The Lord, & Is Jesus Christ,which Is The Name of The Father,The Son & The Holy-Ghost. Trinity isn't found scripture & there is NO scriptures pertaining to. Rapture isn't found in scripture either,but there Are scriptures that does pertain to.
---Lawrence on 7/5/09

Pharisee, *Copy the original???*
Perhaps you would be good enough to point out the "original" reference to the trinity from the OT's first 4,000 years of history!
that the pagans copied!
I will be waiting with bated breath to see this bombshell!
---1st_cliff on 7/5/09

Ya know, it doesn't matter how many counterfeit trinities their were, if anything it lends credence to a Trinitarian Godhead because the Spirit of Anti-Christ has been producing false Gods from the lie till now. Oh and what a surprise many gods were three in one! The word Anti-Christ means in place of or against Christ. Makes plenty of sense that this is what the enemy would do, copy the original.

God came as a dove, spake from Heaven, and got baptized in the Jordan all at the same time. It's evidence of a God appearing in three manifestations at once. See Matthew 3:16-17 Can you imagine if that happened at your baptism, There's a reason it happened at his. No ordinary man lives a sinless life for 33 years.
---Pharisee on 7/5/09

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So, Jesus did not exist before He was born?
He is not the Word of God?
He is not eternal?
He is not the Wisdom of God?
He is not the Judge of the world?
He is not coming back with His saints?
He is not the Creator?
He is not the only Saviour of mankind?
He is not the Light?
He did not send the Comforter?

only because God is the only one who are these things... oh I get it...The one and only God.. ok... In God will I trust and not some mere man, but how can I get to heaven if the only way to God is through a mere man?.. something doesn't sound right..
---MIchael on 7/5/09

What Plato called the 'Demiurge', Philo referred to as 'the Logos.'

S. E. Frost, Jr., Ph.D, writes:

'Philo taught that there were many powers, or spirits, which radiated from God... One of these powers, which he called the 'Logos,' was the creator of the world. This Logos, worked with matter and out of it created everything in the universe... God, through the Logos, created the universe.'

Certain individuals transferred to the Gospel of John characteristics of the 'Demiurge' and 'Logos' mentioned in the non-Biblical writings of Plato and Philo. Since that pagan 'Demiurge' or 'Logos' evidently had always existed alongside the supreme God, it became 'orthodox' to teach that Jesus was coeternal with God.
---David8318 on 7/5/09

Neo-Platonist trinitarians use non-Biblical illustrations to describe their trinity in 'Metaphysical' terms. Such illustrations as 'water, ice and steam', an egg being 'shell, yolk and egg-white', etc... This is their attempt to reconcile the irreconcilable, to make a threefold God appear like 'one God'.

(Cluny 7/5/09- '...Trinity is three Persons in one Substance/Essence') This is Neo-Platonism. Nothing to do with Christianity. Trinity and Christian are contradiction in terms. You cannot be a Christian and a trinitarian.

Yes, Babylon worshipped triads. Neo-Platonism joins Babylon with Christendom.

Regarding 'Babylon the Great', Rev.18:4 states-'Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins'.
---David8318 on 7/5/09

Each person can speak for oneself. If I believe in the Father and His Son, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, this does not mean I am a Greek polytheist. For one thing, the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, are one, and not multiple disagreeing personalities. But ones can impose their own definitions on words that can have more then one meaning.

If I believe in Oneness, this does not mean I got this from someone in past history who I do not even know. The Bible itself says what it says about God being one. So, I can get either belief approach, from the Bible itself. So, I think it is honest to let me and others speak for themselves, about where we got our beliefs.
---Bill_bila5659 on 7/5/09

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\\ Christendoms 'trinity' is cultured out of apostate Babylonian triune gods such as 'Sin, Shamash and Ishtar'.\\

David is wrong.

This was a triad.

The Christian Trinity is three Persons in one Substance/Essence. (Keep in mind that "Person" and "essence" have technical meanings here.)
---Cluny on 7/5/09

The Hindu trinity of Brahma,Vishnu and Siva
and the Egyptian trinity of Isis Horus and Set out date the trinity of Christendom by centuries!
Remember the Jews called for a "King" like the heathen nations, and got one that led to disaster!
Likewise the early apostate Christians wanted a "trinity" like the pagans, so fundamentalists have embraced one they call a "mystery" Seems they never learn!
---1st_cliff on 7/5/09

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not true. For years I didn't understand algebra but it had right and wrong answers that everybody got.

In adulthood I did the same thing with the God of the Bible, I couldn't understand so I didn't believe. When I met Jesus Christ spiritually no one had to explain to me who he was, I knew it just as a small child would. You men who deny his deity have made his identity about what you understand and not what he has plainly shown you. There's a costly price for this.
---Pharisee on 7/5/09

Christendoms 'trinity' is cultured out of apostate Babylonian triune gods such as 'Sin, Shamash and Ishtar'.

Modern day trinitarians are unable to worship the God of the Bible as a triune God because the Bible specifically refers to God as 'one God'. (Deut.6:4)

This is where Plato's philosophy was used because Platonism enables trinitarians to reconcile the irreconcilable- to make a threefold God appear like 'one God'. By philosophical reasoning they claim that three persons could be 'one God' while retaining their individuality!

Neo-Platonic trinitarians will say "it's a METAPHYSICAL thing. Jesus is both 'fully God and fully man'". This is Neo-Platonism.
---David8318 on 7/5/09

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We are "made in God's image" but if you have three personalities you have mental issues!
God is "One God" Deut 6.4. Period!
---1st_cliff on 7/4/09

Cluny, good point. But Trinitarianism limits God to place. So that and Modalism are both flawed theories.
---eric1968 on 7/4/09

Trinitarians and modalists are both alike in their belief that a particular human being is God. But they despise each other nevertheless.
---eric1968 on 7/4/09

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