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Who Is Jesus To You

Who is Jesus? Who do you say that he is?

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 ---TIMOTHY on 7/6/09
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the Word was God.--And the Word was made flesh,--John d. ca. 110
God existing in flesh--Ignatius[a.d. 30-107.]
Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King--Irenaeus[a.d. 120-202.]
For Christ is King, and Priest, and God, and Lord--Justin Martyr[a.d. 110-165.]
Blend God and renewed man in one.--Tertullian(ca.160-ca.220 AD)
seeing God is the Father, that the Saviour is also God--Origen (c. 185-c. 254)
There is one Lord, Only of the Only, God of God, Image and Likeness of Deity, Efficient Word--Gregory Thaumaturgus[a.d. 205-265.]
the Word who is God, who is in the Father--Clement of Alexandria[a.d. 153-217.]
the Father is eternal, the Son also is eternal, Light of Light.--Dionysius[a.d. 200-265.]
---MIchael on 7/19/09


Mr. Ed? Correcting my spelling, then in the same post referring to "the som of God," "as search as I can," "furthher Scriptural evidence"? (Who exactly is the "som of God"?) Relying on Marc and others to attempt to explain your failed and silly premise?

I'll let the readers of this thread determine for themselves whether you have made a case for your position that:

"The 'son' of a horse is a horse...likewise the Son of God is God."

Or that:

"Jesus being called 'Son' means He is equal with God."

As usual, your inability to form a coherent defense for your position causes you to deteriorate into using apologetic baby talk.
---scott on 7/19/09

MarcV said Jesus "Still has a human body which is resurrected."

Christ himself said that "God [the father] is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth" John 4:24 ASV

Are you then suggesting that 1/3rd of trinity is flesh and blood while 1/3rd is spirit? Or is that 2/3rds are spirit including the HS?

Are you not then describing three separate Gods? Polytheism?

Another part of the grand mystery I'm guessing.
---scott on 7/19/09

Scott again you attempt evasion!

Your proposition was: John 1:3 says creation was brought into existence 'through' Jesus so He is not the creator, just the condute. This of course ignores that 'through' does not appear in Colossians 1:16 in relation to Jesus being creator.

The flaw in this 'theology' is, as explained twice, the same Greek word for 'through' (dia) is also applied to God as creator-Romans 11:36, Hebrews 2:10.

This negates your argument showing God's word sees no distinction between Jesus or God-one and the same.

Then, above, you, again, as is your normal cult ploy, delve into JW literature for your next point. As one is shot down you move to the next. You will eventually run out.
---Warwick on 7/19/09

Scott you wrote this strange sentence 'Your (you are/ you're)providing further evidence of a flawed and even puzzling premise by now introducing all sorts of qualifiers, back peddling and 'what I meant to say was...'

I am indeed puzzled as search as I can I see none of the above in that which I wrote. No qualifiers or back peddling, nor any-what I meant to say's. In reality I see you playing fast and loose with the truth. So what's new about that!

I gave further support for the Biblical view, and this is how you describe it. But wait, there's more!
---Warwick on 7/19/09

"DIA and EK" (1)

(3rd attempt at posting this BTW)

The Interpreter's Bible notes:

"Paul meant much more [in 1 Cor. 8:5, 6] than the affirmation of henotheism, the restriction of worship to the God of the Christian faith. In his eyes only one is Really God, the Father of all, who is the creator and consummation of all things. So likewise, Jesus was not one Lord among many. He is the only true Lord, one who shares his place with no other because he is the one mediator of creation."

---scott on 7/18/09

Dia (3)

"Dia" (Strong's) means "through" but depending on the context can also have a "causal" meaning.

That's why translations like KJV, AKJV, DRB, DBT, etc., render Hebrews 2:10 as "By whom all things are" rather than "through" like others (NASV, ASV, etc.)

And ISV, GWT, DRB, WBT, renders Romans 11:36 (in reference to YHWH) as "By Him and for Him..." rather than "through" him.

Weymouth renders it nicely "For The universe owes its origin to Him, was created by Him, and has its aim and purpose in Him. To Him be the glory throughout the Ages!"

These translations reflect the context of Dia in these verses.
---scott on 7/18/09

Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King,--Irenaeus [a.d. 120-202.]
who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God--Justin Martyr [a.d. 110-165.]
God existing in flesh--Ignatius [a.d. 30-107.]
the incorporeal and incorruptible and immaterial Word of God entered our world--He Himself is not man only but also God--St. Athanasius (c. a.d. 297 - 373)
the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, who are at the same time the Trinity, one Being, supreme above all--St. Augustine - (a.d. 354-430)
Blend God and renewed man in one.--Tertullian, (ca.160 - ca.220 AD)
God is the Father, that the Saviour is also God--Origen c. 185-254AD
---MIchael on 7/18/09

Scott, I still see a lot of twisting going on with you. Just as I had said before. You are going around finding words of Christ, when He submits to the Father and using them to make your case. Then when you give passages they are mostly out of context to what the message is in each passage. As you did with Rev. 3:12 where you say He called God, My God, and finished with saying that He was no longer on earth with a human body, but you are wrong for He still has a human body which is resurrected, as was spoken when He ascented into heaven. Yet Jesus never lost His divinity or His humanity. And when speaking as the Son He alway submitted to the Father. Now you cannot understand this things because you do not believe.
---MarkV. on 7/18/09

To answer the blog question: I believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Jesus is the Creator.
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, Who was and Who is to come, the Almighty.
Jesus is to be worshipped.
Jesus is to be followed.
Jesus, while physically on earth, was a perfect example on how to live.
Jesus is presented from the Scriptures to hold the place of God as memtioned above.

Although I believe Jesus to be God, let me ask a question, does one have to believe that Jesus is God Almighty, as taught by trinitarians to have eternal life?
---Rodj on 7/18/09

The 4th word of Genesis 1:1 is 2 letters-the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet-aw'-lef and tawv, Alpha & Omega, in Greek, meaning the beginning and the end, everything, the totality.

Jesus calls Himself the 'Alpha', 'Omega', 'First', 'Last', 'Beginning', 'End', 'aw'-lef' and 'tawv' inserting Himself there in sentence 1 next to the word for God, which sentence covers the creative works of God. Jesus is saying He the first and the last, created. The implication is clear!

Interestingly aw'-lef and tawv beginning and end, first and last, appear first and last, the beginning of the first book, and the end of the last.
---Warwick on 7/18/09

"DIA and EK" (1)

The Interpreter's Bible notes:

"Paul meant much more [in 1 Cor. 8:5, 6] than the affirmation of henotheism, the restriction of worship to the God of the Christian faith. In his eyes only one is really God, the Father of all, who is the creator and consummation of all things. So likewise, Jesus was not one Lord among many. He is the only true Lord, one who shares his place with no other because he is the one mediator of creation."...


(Emphasis is mine)
---scott on 7/17/09

"DIA and EK" (2)

Interpreter's Bible Cont.

..."Paul chose his prepositions carefully [EK and DIA] in order to distinguish between God the Father, who is the ultimate source of creation, and Christ, the Lord, through whom [DIA] this activity takes place... in Col. 1:16 [Paul] repeats the affirmation that all things are "through" Christ and "for" is perfectly clear what Paul wants to affirm...

...When Paul ascribed Lordship to Christ, in contrast to later church dogma, he did not mean that Christ was God. Christ was definitely subordinated to God. [1 Cor. 3:23, 11:3, 15:28.]" Ibid., pp 93-94
---scott on 7/17/09

Scott, glad you noticed!

'A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And no one can talk to a horse of course
That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mister Ed.

Go right to the source and ask the horse
He'll give you the answer that you'll endorse.
He's always on a steady course..'

A horse of course is the son of a horse
Of course if this ain't the case then of course no Mr Ed!

As Marc says- Jesus is the only begotten som of God. Which part of 'only' confuses you Scott, you of the mystery cult?

I find it amusing you consider furthher Scriptural evidence to be 'back peddling.'

BTW you use 'your' when you mean you are- you're!
---Warwick on 7/17/09

Scott you evade the point that the Greek 'dia' (through) is applied to both Jesus and God when speaking of creation-to Jesus in John 1:3, Hebrews 1:3, and to God in Hebrews 2:10, Romans 11:36.

You claim the use of through makes Jesus only the 'condute' God used to create, not Creator! By your reasoning, and Scripture you are saying God is also only the 'condute' not Creator.

Who then is Creator?

You have created a problem for yourself Scott.

Conversely Trinitarian's have no problem: God is Creator, Jesus is Creator, means both are God!

'Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive'!
---Warwick on 7/17/09

John 5:17,18 'making Himself equal with God.' ?

This was not Christ's claim but an accusation made by "Jews" to which he responded:

"Verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing..." 5:19 ASV

His response would make little sense if he was actually in agreement with them.

---scott on 7/16/09

And he doesn't say he not equal either, besides doesn't seeth the Father doing, which he can do equal?
---Ruben on 7/17/09

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Your providing further evidence of a flawed and even puzzling premise by now introducing all sorts of qualifiers, back peddling and 'what I meant to say was...'

You certainly never said anything about 'coming to earth, being crucified, dying, being raised from the dead, Alpha and Omega, etc., etc., etc.

You simply stated that:

"The 'son' of a horse is a horse...likewise the Son of God is God."


"Jesus being called 'Son' means He is equal with God."

I maintain this argument defies scripture as well as logic. But it's your argument, so I'll just sit back and watch you attempt to explain it away.
---scott on 7/17/09

David writes: "However, if Jesus is 'fully God and fully man', and 'the Word was God', then John got it all wrong because men did 'see' God. What trinitarian nonsense!"

However, as David knows, the Bible says, "then Moses and Aaron [and the others] saw the God of Israel...So they saw God." (Exodus 24:9-11)

No, David, not Trinitarian nonsense but your Jehovah Witness neo-Platonic Gnosticism that excludes Jesus from being fully God!
---marc on 7/16/09

Scott rhetorically asks: "Are all "Sons of God" equal to the Almighty?", after giving examples where this applies to beings who can't be.

However, Scott, Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God. If your heretical theology is true, then the Father only became a Father when Jesus was begotten.

And if yours is the correct theology, this means that the Father's eternal fundamental nature is mutable (i.e. becoming something he once wasn't i.e. a Father), also making the Father subject to time. Your theology once again turns the Bible into a lie.
---marc on 7/16/09

"The 'son' of a horse is a horse..." Of Course!

Sorry, couldn't resist. Now maybe I can get that old song out of my head.
---scott on 7/16/09

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Here's some of the evidence that Jesus was the ETERNAL SON of God. Not just "a" son.

Jhn 17:1-5 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come, GLORIFY THY SON, that THAT THY SON SHALL ALSO GLORIFY THEE:
As thou hast GIVEN HIM POWER OVER ALL FLESH THAT HE SHOULD GIVE ETERNAL LIFE to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD
---Donna on 7/16/09

Scott you quote Heb. 1:2 as if 'through whom He made the world.' means Jesus was not the Creator but merely the 'condute' through whom God created.

However Hebrews 2:10 has '.. through whom everything exists' , referring to God!

And Romans 11:36 also referrring to God, says creation occurred 'through him'

By your logic God Himself isn't Creator!

Therefore as creation occurred through both Jesus and God either:

Both are God
Neither are God

However Isaiah 40:28 describes God as 'Creator of the ends of the earth.'Innescapably both are the Creator, the one God.
---Warwick on 7/16/09

Scott the 'fatal flaw' is your 'theology.

Your verses-Gen 6:2, Job 1:6, Job 38:7, 3:38, Rom 8:14-all refer to humans, and to women as well.

Not one of these came to earth to die, was crucified for claiming to be God, died and rose again, for the forgiveness of sins.

Not one of these people was referred to by God as 'This is my Son, whom I have chosen'-Luke 9:35

None of these referred to God as 'my Father.' Not one of them said 'I and my Father are one.'

Not one of them was called our great God and Saviour..' Titus 2:13

Not one called themselves 'The Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, as did both God and Jesus.

These are sons, not my Son, or the Son.
---Warwick on 7/16/09

Janze: The challenges to the Deity of Christ are not new, just repackaged for a new generation. However if you feel that under exposure is the key to the masses then by all means expose away. I would rather be part of a small bunch of wheat then be crowded in with a large bundle of chaffe.
---TIMOTHY on 7/16/09

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I am not making a comment on who is or is not twisting scripture, but I would like to suggest that the accepted norm should not be the criterion for Truth. The accepted norm is probably the idea that has received the greatest amount of exposure. Should how well an idea is published or received become the standard for determining Truth?
---Janze on 7/16/09

John 5:17,18 'making Himself equal with God.' ?

This was not Christ's claim but an accusation made by "Jews" to which he responded:

"Verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing..." 5:19 ASV

His response would make little sense if he was actually in agreement with them.

BTW, They also falsely accused him of breaking the sabbath.
---scott on 7/16/09

"Dia" at Hebrews 2:10

"...His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He made the world." Heb 1:2 NASV

Clearly, the Father acted through the Son.

Even Trinitarian apologists Bowman and Komoszewski see the relationship between 1:2 and 2:10 and understand "Dia" to be causal in reference to the Father and not intermediate:

"Since [Hebrews 1:2 and 2:10] are in relatively close proximity and both contexts are about creation, it seems unlikely that through whom had a different meaning in 2:10 than it does in 1:2." Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ, 2007, 190.
---scott on 7/16/09

"The 'son' of a horse is a horse...likewise the Son of God is God." (Warwick 7/11/09)

Here's the fatal flaw in this strange argument:

"The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and they took them wives...." Gen 6:2

"...When the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, Satan also came..." Job 1:6 ASV

"The morning stars sang...and all the sons of God shouted for joy." Job 38:7 ASV

"Adam, the son of God." Luke 3:38 ASV

"As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." Rom 8:14 ASV

Are all "Sons of God" equal to the Almighty?
---scott on 7/15/09

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it is shown that Solomon is not the Lord of hosts, but when our Christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, the rulers in heaven, under appointment of God, are commanded to open the gates of heaven, that He who is King of glory may enter in, and having ascended, may sit on the right hand of the Father until He make the enemies His footstool, as has been made manifest by another Psalm....And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory-Justin Martyr [a.d. 110-165.]
Psalms 84:3 Yea, the sparrow hath found an house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay her young, [even] thine altars, O LORD of hosts, my King, and my God.
---MIchael on 7/15/09

...derision but I gain JOY from it! God's Truth against infidels?

The true Christian does not take his lead from denominational teaching, ....impressed by what Martin Luther wrote saying the Christian soldier should defend whatever part of the Bible the world is attacking .....the historical truth of Genesis creation. Let the battle continue!
---Warwick on 7/13/09

A wolf in sheeps clothing baa, baaa but gobbles up the sheep. You fool some...some of the time...but, not all all of the time.
Your past statements testify your belief in other men...martin,doctor this, scientist here,book $$$ over there. Seldom using scripture to make a point. Never using witnesses. Indidels?? The language is strikingly familiar.....hmmm.
---Trav on 7/14/09

Scott: Scripture twisting for me is any verse that is used for the purpose of arguing that Jesus is not God. Scripture twisting for you might be any verse that is used for the purpose of arguing that Jesus is God. Given the fact that you and I are on differing sides of one ideology, it is logical that either you or I are twisting the facts in order to prove our position. There can only be one truth to the one book, someone is twisting the scriptures and someone is wrong regarding the deity of Christ. I surely hope that I am not the twister, however given the present statistics I am feeling pretty confident about my position. And any distortion of an accepted norm is described as cultic. Jesus as God is clearly the accepted norm.
---TIMOTHY on 7/14/09

If Scott were a Christian whose understanding came from Scripture and the Holy Spirit, then we should listen. However he belongs to a mystery antiTrinitarian cult. Therefore is not free to interpret Scripture Himself. He must follow the 'party line.'

The quote He gives refers to the formal acceptance of what Scripture conveys, that which Christians understood.

As has been shown repeatedly God says Jesus is God, as does Jesus, the apostles, and Jesus' mortal enemies.

The Holy Spirit is also God for many reasons one being that He can be blasphemed. Blasphemy is a sin against God, not man or 'force.'
---Warwick on 7/14/09

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Despite wild claims by Neo-Platonists- nowhere in the Bible does it say 'Jesus is the Creator'. John 1:3 simply does not say Jesus is 'creator'. However, if you are influenced by Hellenic philosophy, then you will believe Jesus is God and not the Christ.

In trying to spin his Neo-Platonic philosophy into John 1:18, Warwick ignores the fact that 1:18 states 'No man has seen God'. I know how awkward this is for Neo-Platonists, but it is there in the verse.

Jesus is not Almighty God. John 1:1-18- 'The Word was a god... No man has seen God...' This makes sense.

However, if Jesus is 'fully God and fully man', and 'the Word was God', then John got it all wrong because men did 'see' God. What trinitarian nonsense!
---David8318 on 7/14/09

Timothy, Which viewpoint came first?

"The Jews were renowned...the Romans thought notorious, for believing in one God. There was complete agreement by the Jews on this point. No compromise would ever be acceptable. And this stand was not the ticket to popularity in the ancient world." The Unfinished Reformation

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even REMOTELY APPROACHING such a mentality or perspective." New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 299
---scott on 7/14/09


Sorry Mark. I meant Rev 3:14 not 3:4.

See also Rev 3:12 where the resurrected and glorified Christ refers to the Father as 'His God' four times. No longer on earth in a man's form.
---scott on 7/14/09

Application of 'the Alpha and the Omega' at Rev.22:12,13 is not being made to Jesus, but to Jehovah as the one 'coming'.

Jesus is described later as 'the bright morning star', in 22:16.

At Re.21:6,7 those who are 'conquering' are God's 'sons'. However, Jesus refers to these 'conquerors' as his BROTHERS. (Mt.25:34-40).

So, Neo-Platonists will have you believe (if Jesus is the 'Alpha & the Omega'- 21:6) that the 'Son' Jesus, is also Father to his brothers. Confusion + contradiction = 'Mystery trinity'.

To the self-congratulating trinitarian Christ deniers, Jesus is not the 'the Alpha and the Omega'. Jesus is the 'Son of God'.
---David8318 on 7/14/09

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1. I appreciate your generosity in saying that my point-of-view is almost cultic.

2. Twisting scripture? That's a serious accusation and I'd be interested to see the example you cite to support that claim.

"Then comes the end, when he [Christ] delivers the kingdom to God the Father...When all things are subjected to him, then the son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one." 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 RSV

"Subject" hypotas'so= Strongs 5293:

1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to obey
4) to submit to one's control

What have I twisted?
---scott on 7/14/09

MarkV: I appreciate your blog and you are correct. Many blogers feel as if they have discovered some new way to interpret the Bible however it is just the old stuff repackaged. I dealt wit the scripture twisters in college over twenty five years ago and they are not presenting anything new. There are some very well established authors for their philosophy out there and I have seen qoutes from their GURU's show up in many of their "original" thoughts. Anyway, the litmus test for these sideline groups is the same, do they deny the divinity of Christ? If they do, then they are not Christians, they lack the annointing.
---TIMOTHY on 7/14/09


"They use Jesus the human, the incarnated Christ to make their points."

Not necessarily true.

For example, while there are many statements by Christ himself (while on earth) that indicate He was not the Almighty (John 17:1-3, Matt 26:39, Mark 13:32, John 5:19, John 14:28, etc.) other inspired verses were written after his death, resurrection and ascension to heaven. (1 Cor 8:5,6, 1 Cor 11:3, 1 Cor 15:27, Rev 1:1 etc.)

Regarding His "beginning" (written after his resurrection) Col 1:15, Rev 3:4. See also Prov 8:22 and Micah 5:2.

Check the lexicons for the meaning of the Hebrew word "Motsaah" at Micah 5:2. It means "origin."
---scott on 7/14/09

Timothy, I am with you. People who deny the deity of Christ, have weapons (the twisting of words) to do it. They use Jesus the human, the encarnated Christ to make their points. Of course Jesus was born of Mary, we all know that. But Christ has no beginning. That He came as a human, is what they use against His deity. Altogether avoiding Him as God. And when you present Him as God, they answer to His humanity. If you answer to His humanity, they answer from God. You can go back and forth and really they do not want to know or have an open mind, they have an agenda. To distroy His deity. That is why it's hard to put passages together, they will twist the two, human, and God to no avail.
---MarkV. on 7/14/09

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Thanks Mark. I blog, with joy, that I may take a small part in the contradiction of those who would lead the unsuspecting into error, and away from faith, to damnation.

I have copped my fair share of derision but I gain JOY from it! What else should we expect if we defend God's Truth against infidels?

The true Christian does not take his lead from denominational teaching, but solely from the word of God.

I am impressed by what Martin Luther wrote saying the Christian soldier should defend whatever part of the Bible the world is attacking at any particular time. We see here attacks centring upon the deity of Jesus and the historical truth of Genesis creation. Let the battle continue!
---Warwick on 7/13/09

Nowhere in Rev.1:8 is 'the first and the last' mentioned. Rather, 'the beginning and the ending'.

When Jesus is termed 'the first and the last' in Revelation, it is always with definite limitations, regarding his death and resurrection- Rev.1:17 and 2:8.

Rev.1:17 can't be compared with 1:8, there are different expressions. Trinitarians twist scripture to say 'the first and the last' appear at both 1:8 and 1:17. But it does not.

Application of 'the Alpha and the Omega' at 22:13 is not made to Jesus, but to Jehovah. No limitation is given here to 'the first and the last' in terms of 'death and resurrection'. Jehovah cannot die. (Isaiah 44:6) Thus, all names applicable to Jehovah come together at 22:13, not to Jesus.
---David8318 on 7/13/09

Creator and the Creation

"The WHOLE is frequently put for a PART." Robert Young, in his Analytical Concordance (Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation," item 29).

"He has put all things in subjection under his [Christ's] feet'. But in saying 'all things', it clearly means to exclude God who subordinates them." 1 Cor 15:27 NEB

God is one of the category of 'things'. If He were not, Paul would not have explained that He is excluded from the "all things" which will be subordinated to the Christ.
---scott on 7/13/09

Scott: Simply stated after twenty five years of study and living the Christian life I simply see the denial of the divinity of Christ as wrong and outright scripture twisting, possibly cultic. I am willing to go to my grave and stand before God on my position that Jesus is God. Now, your not going to convince me and I most likely am not going to convince you. What your presenting is not new, most grounded Christians have studied it many times before in many forms and we all know your position. However I have enjoyed our debate and I wish you the very best that God has to offer. God Bless.
---TIMOTHY on 7/13/09

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Patrick870 Hebrews 1:8

1. At Hebrews 1:8 Paul quotes Psalm 45:6, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel (Solomon?). Obviously, the Bible writer of this Psalm (nor the Apostle Paul) thought that this human king was Almighty God.

2. Context is key. The very next verse says (speaking to the Son)
"That is why God, your God, anointed you rather than your companions..." ISV

The father, YHWH/Jehovah, never calls the son "His" God. Christ cannot be the supreme God, because the supreme God does not have a God.
---scott on 7/13/09

When he died for me on the cross on Calvary, he was my Savior, but when I meet him in the hereafter, he will be my judge. In between, he is my ever present friend and companion. When I am most alone, he is most present with me.
---frances008 on 7/13/09

Warwick, good answers. I am following your statements. It is almost impossible for anyone who is against the deity of Christ to convert and be for it. The person would have to have an open heart, to listen, to check with Scripture without bias, and the Truth will come through. Most everyone who answers are holding very strongly to the concept they were taught by someone.
---MarkV. on 7/12/09

Jesus is the Son of God who was send to die for us, and took our sens and eniquitis to the croz so we can have acces to the eternety in haven. He was and an Spirit who turn in to flesh by God in the body of the Vigin Mary
---martha on 7/13/09

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In hebrews 1:8 God the father is speaking and he calls his son God.

Heb 1:8 KJB
But unto his Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever...

It does not matter who we think Jesus is, the Bible says he is Go. I heard this preached today, if one person states that Jesus is this and another says he is that, they could both be right, but unless you state everything that he is your making him incomplete and it takes the whole bible to really explain who Jesus is
---Patrick870 on 7/13/09

Over and over you say Jesus is not Creator, as if vain repetition will make it so.

John 1:3 says Jesus is the Creator of everything which was created. You say He is created which means He created Himself! This is obvious nonsense.

BTW you have oft said that 'thorugh' in verse 3 says everything was made through Him as though He is the creators 'tool', not the Creator. However in Romans 11:36, and Hebrews 2:10 it says everything came into being 'through' God! Notice the word 'through' is the same Greek word 'dia' in both cases.

By extention you are saying God Himself is not Creator. Simple bizarre!
---Warwick on 7/12/09

Phew here is me without glasses and you say I 'explain Jesus existence through the distorted lens of Hellenic philosophy, and formulate 'metaphysical' explanations for the 'godhead'.

'Animal begets animal, human begets human, God begets God.' This is unscriptural Neo-Platonic teaching.'

No David Scripture, logic and Biology 101!

'God begets God'? All the angels are 'God' also are they?"

David Jesus is begotten of the Father, God manifest in flesh, Author of life, God in human form, in whom the fullness of the deity lives, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords!

Jesus is not a creature while the angels were created, by Him.
---Warwick on 7/12/09

David in Rev. 1:8 God Almighty says 'I am the Alpha & the Omega', the first and the last. In 1:17 who is 'the First and the Last'? Can't be God Almighty as it says 'I was dead and behold I am alive.' The Son, not the Father died, This is Jesus.

Then in 2:8 Jesus says He is 'the First and the Last.', Almighty God.

In Rev.22:13 Jesus, the one coming, puts all the names together 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.'

How can John 1:18 assist you? It says God is God (theos), Jesus is God (theos), the only Son. Therefore God the Son is equal to God the Father.

Matthew 16:16 says Jesus is 'the Son of the living God', therefore God, as per John 1:18!
---Warwick on 7/12/09

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Jesus is not 'the Alpha and the Omega'.

Jesus is not part of a 'trinity'.

Jesus is not the Almighty God. (If anyone cites Jo.1:1, please also include 1:18)

Jesus is not the Creator and he did not create the 'cosmos'.

Matthew 16:16 is quite clear in showing who Jesus is as Scott rightly points out. Peter was in no doubt when he said 'You are Christ, Son of the living God'.
---David8318 on 7/12/09

Neo-Platonists explain Jesus existence through the distorted lens of Hellenic philosophy, and formulate 'metaphysical' explanations for the 'godhead'.

Eg- Warwick 7/11/09: 'Animal begets animal, human begets human, God begets God.' This is unscriptural Neo-Platonic teaching.

Modern day trinitarians know its impossible to worship the God of the Bible as a triad. That's why Warwick's theology is heavily influenced by Platonic 'metaphysical philosophy' which allows him to reconcile the irreconcilable- to make a threefold God appear as 'one God'.(Deut.6:4)

By philosophical reasoning they claim that three persons can be 'one God' while retaining their individuality!

'God begets God'? All the angels are 'God' also are they?
---David8318 on 7/12/09

Scott a few days ago, once again, you were on about Scripture saying everything was created 'through' (Greek 'dia')Jesus saying this shows He is not the Creator but the means through which God created.

If this is true then God Almighty is also not the Creator as in Romans 11:36 & Hebrews. 2:10 we are told that everything came into being 'through' (also Greek 'dia')God!

You are in a spot of bother aren't you! Who then is the creator?

No problem for those who follow God's word, acknowedging the trinity, as God is Creator, as is Jesus, one and the same.
---Warwick on 7/12/09

The Lord Jesus Christ faithfully and perfectly performed for us the work necessary to deliver us from the debt and penalty of our sins. What we could not do for ourselves by any of our works, He did for us as our substitute redeemer. He took our place, as our redeemer, and suffered the wages of our sins for us. He propitiated God's justice in connection with the penalty of our sins, and perfectly provided for the forgiveness of our sins and our justification by God.(This from readings on the Internet)

So Jesus is our REDEEMER!!!!!
---mima on 7/12/09

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What a wonderful truth is conveyed in this expression - the faith OF Jesus Christ. If it wasn't for His faithful performance as our substitute redeemer there would be for us no redemption, no forgiveness, no justification, no reconciliation, no sanctification, no nothing.. There would only be wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. (Found on the Internet) Thanks be to God for THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST". Thank you Jesus!!!!!
---mima on 7/12/09

Scott the exchange in Matt. 16:16,17 in no way means Jesus is not part of the Godhead. Rather the opposite.

The 'son' of a horse is a horse, not some 'lower' order. If a horse had other than a horse it would be world-wide news!

Likewise the 'son' of a human is a human, not some 'lower' order. Likewise if a human produced other than a human it would be world-wide news.

Likewise the Son of God is God. Of the same order. Animal begets animal, human begets human, God begets God.

This Son said of Himself 'the Father is in me and I in the Father.' Who else can claim this? Any angel?

He called God His Father '..he was even calling God His Father (as He did) making Himself equal with God.' John 8:17,18.
---Warwick on 7/11/09


I prefer to make an examination of God's word myself with a close eye on the original languages, comparing translations, etc., rather than simply deferring to apologists on either side of an issue.

There are books and websites on each side of every theological argument, for and against every denomination and religion. Apologetic white noise. (Many serious bible students, as you are likely aware, question R. Rhodes "scholarly" conclusions on a number of issues).

I would encourage you not to simply line your bookshelves with apologist authors without carefully examining these important issues for yourself.

"Examine everything carefully, hold fast to that which is good." 1 Thess 5:21 NIV
---scott on 7/10/09

Scott: I have enjoyed our discussions as well and I wish you the best. Your position is clear and I wish you good luck with that, I suppose that we will find out who is correct in the end. For a defense of my position I defer to Josh McDowell or Ron Rhodes. God Bless.
---TIMOTHY on 7/10/09

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Yes, Jesus asked the disciples "who do you say that I am" for a reason.

But did you really examine the response? You're overlooking the disciples definitive answer and Christ's acknowledgment of the truthfulness of that answer.

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Matt 16:16

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." 16:17

This exchange contradicts your belief in a triune God. But I've enjoyed our discussion nonetheless. Thanks.
---scott on 7/9/09

Jesus is the Christ, the anointed one, the Son of God, He is the Messiah. Jesus is the healer of my mind, soul and body.

Jesus is the Messiah of the World. He came to take upon my sins and shed His blood for my sins so that I may have forgiveness with God through Jesus's shed blood.
---anon on 7/9/09

Why did Jesus have a glory before the world was? John 17:7

Why does John call Jesus the "logos" and why does he say he "was God?" John 1:1

Why does John go on to say that the same "logos" was made flesh and did dwell among us in John 1:14?

Why did Jesus refer to himself as the "first and the last" in Revelation 1:11 when any good Hebrew teacher would know that God said this of himself in the Old Testament in more then one place?

Why didn't Jesus keep Thomas from worshiping him when he called him "my Lord and my God?" John 20:28

Jesus deniers please explain these things, I have plenty more, you got some splaining to do Lucy!
---Pharisee on 7/8/09

RE-read chapter one of Colossians. Read the KJV version (it's more accurate than tosay's English and than any of the modern bibles - even with the thee's, ye's and thou's). Read it through the eyes of a child. The problem is that adults are just too knowledgable. They analyze each verse they read - consciously and subconsciously. Take out the numbers from the verses and read it as a true letter written by Paul (I really doubt that you would write to an earthly friend having verse numbers included). Pay close attention to punctuation. Read especially verses 12 through and including 19. It seems most christians read verses 16 and 17 out of context of the entire letter.
---Steveng on 7/8/09

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The basic premise of Paul's letter was that faith in Christ was all you needed. Do not complicate it the way all denominations "churches" do today, each having their own traditions, ways of living, and interpretations of the bible.

Don't let others spoil your faith and joy with their philosophies, their wrong and shallow answers built on men's thoughts and ideas, instead of on what Christ has said. For in Christ there is all of God in a human body, so you have everthing when you have Christ, and you are filled with God through your union with Christ. He is the highest ruler, with authority over every other power. Colossians 2-8-10
---Steveng on 7/8/09

Jesus came to earth as the son of God, but because He carried out His father's plan, He was glorified and became GOD IN ENTIRETY and was given ALL authority in heaven and earth...HE is the only one who hung on the cross and suffered, not "the bible", not PAUL,...NOBODY and NOTHING is a spiritual authority except Jesus (no matter what is ever taught).

John 7:39
"for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified".

Matthew 28:18
"And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".

Colossians 2:9
"For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily".
---more_excellent_way on 7/8/09

Jesus to me is my brother, my saviour. His father is my father. Jesus came ot the earth to give his fathers message for us & died for us. that is who he is to me.
---Candice on 7/8/09

Scott: Jesus as God is not a new concept and and is not my invention. You already know the verses that I will be citing and you already have your packaged replies at the ready thatnks to Bart D Erhman and the Progressive Christian movement. This question was intentional on my part to expose the bloggers that don't believe that Jesus is God. Jesus asked the people that he met "who do you say that I am" for a reason. An individuals answer to that question will seperate the wheat from the chaffe. You have interpreted the scriptures your way and I have in my way. We will find out in the end who is correct. God Bless.
---TIMOTHY on 7/8/09

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Pharasee Col 1:16-17

"For by * him all things were created...all things were created through him..." ESV

* ESV Footnote: "That is, by means of, or in him."

"Christ is the one through whom God created everything...Everything has been created through him..." NLT

"All things were created through Him..." NKJV, NASB, RSV

This is in harmony with Prov 8:22,30 where Christ (firstborn of all Creation- Col 1:15) is used by the Creator (YHWH) as a "Master Worker," for the creation of everything else.
---scott on 7/7/09

Timothy- "I believe that he [Jesus] said he is God..."

---scott on 7/7/09

Maybe a better question from me would have been who do you think Jesus said he was? I believe that he said he is God, the Savior of the world, the Christ. Does anyone disagree that Jesus said he was God?
---TIMOTHY on 7/7/09

Jesus is the justifyer for all who will receive him. Because of Jesus and the faith that he exhibited and what he did on the cross, you and I are free to stand before Almighty God completely without guilt.

Praise the name of Jesus!!!!
---mima on 7/6/09

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there are so many names given to our lord.The redemer,the great physician,the word,alpha,omega,morning star,and on ,and on,lamb of God,son of God,but to me savior fits best,my strength works well also.
---tom2 on 7/6/09


Jesus is the Son of God.
---scott on 7/6/09

The Only True & Living God,Jesus Christ Is God robed in flesh,this worlds creator,the Savior of the world for those that will let Him be. Also the healer,councelor,blesser, deliverer etc. ALL other known(Man-made)god's Are dead.
---Lawrence on 7/6/09

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