//Conversely you persist with your nonBiblical view, unable to support it with Scripture, grammar or logic.
Scripture is often flawed by interpretation, grammar is simply the rightful construction or syntax of a language, and logic involves judgment, sense, common sense, lucidity, reasoning, rationality, sensibleness, soundness. And it is just too plain to see that your hypothesis or assumption that the first 3 days of creation had to be of 24 hour duration is not supported by the plain meaning of the text involved.
You are simply adding more straw for your manure pile.
---lee on 9/22/09|
//Genesis ch. 1 shows the creation-days are earth-rotation evening and morning,...
If there were a evening & morning the first day, the second day, and the third day, did the light from God goes down? The only light available was from God (creation day #1).
We view evening & morning based upon the rising and setting of the sun created on the 4th day. Obviously, then the first 3 creation 'days' had to be much different from the last 3 creation days.
Hence since the record does not tell us, we simply make ASSumptions about the duration of all the creation 'days' as being 24 hours in duration. What other possible rational explanation are we really left with?
---lee on 9/22/09|
No Lee you need to backtrack, as you are the one who has walked away from Scripture. As blind Freddy can see you have absolutely no Biblical support for your man-made theories. In reality Scripture always contradicts you.
You receive no support from grammar either as grammar shows the creation days are what we call 24hr days. You know that, as you provided the proof of this from the Holman Bible dictionary. Obviously unwittingly.
Some time ago in an attempt to support your view you referred me to a National Geographic article which claimed man had been around for 77,000 years. Are you now claiming there was no death in that 77,000 years?
---Warwick on 9/22/09|
Warwick - you still need to backtrack on your thinking and ask yourself if there was death of any sort on the first 3 days of creation. If not, then down the drain goes your view that there was death before Adam was created on the 6th day.
Who knows but maybe Adam was our caveman ancestor and after being driven out of the Garden his ancestry evolved into what we view as humans, apes, monkeys, gorillas, chimpanzees, etc. today. You don't mind if I tickle your funny bones a little do you?
---lee on 9/22/09|
Lee I think I have a good enough command of English, at least enough to illustrate your errors!
Maybe you don't know what 'word-games' means. You harp upon the days of creation not being 24hrs, as though it matters if they were 23hrs 59 minutes or 24 hrs 2 minutes-word-games!
Genesis ch. 1 shows the creation-days are earth-rotation evening and morning, day and night days, all the same length. Exodus 20:8-11 confirms it. My view is also supported by grammatical rules and logic. Conversely you persist with your nonBiblical view, unable to support it with Scripture, grammar or logic. And you say I am the one with limited intelligence, and command of English.
---Warwick on 9/21/09|
//Lee, as usual you play word-games ...
Perhaps your problem is that you really do not know enough about the English language to communicate effectively?
---lee on 9/21/09|
I believe your preacher is wrong. Anyways, he is suppose to depend on God for keeping his doors open. I really do not approve of anyone telling anyone what to do when they themselves do not do the right thing. And this preacher is dead WRONG. You obey God, my friend! It's his money, anyhow.
---catherine on 9/21/09|
Warwick -**You said you believe man was around milennia before Adam appeared.
You really should post the 10 commandments above your computer and circle the one that claims one should not bear false witness.
Sorry guy, but you cannot point to a single post that I made that says anything about any man was around milennia before Adam appeared.
Sounds to me your strawman is fabricated by falsehoods. Now you know why I do not respect you.
---lee on 9/21/09|
Lee, as usual you play word-games around 24hrs. Scripture clearly says the 6 days of creation were of the same length, echoed in Exodus 20:8-11 where God again says He created in 6-days, and of the same length as the Israelites were to work. If not the same length God has sentenced them to execution on the Sabbath, because if you are correct, they could not have known when it was.
I see no evidence you have superior intellect, qualifications nor knowledge than me.
Your non/antiBiblical views?
1) Your views are opinions. There is no Scripture to support them.
2) You said you believe man was around milennia before Adam appeared. This undermines the gospel.
---Warwick on 9/21/09|
//Lee you have attempted to judge and condemn, calling me fool, ASS, ignorant etc because I reject your nonBiblical views.
But you have failed to point out a single nonbiblical view that I currently hold. Everything you accuse me of is based on beliefs you cannot substantiate as they are based on assumptions.
And the biggest one is that you hold the Bible tells us that the 1st 3 days of creation had to be 24 hours in duration but you have been totally unable to point to a singe verse that tells us that. Sorry, but it is plain not only to myself but to others that you are wrong.
I would suggest that you stop trying to pick an argument with those who are more knowledgeable of these things than you apparently are.
---lee on 9/20/09|
Lee you have attempted to judge and condemn, calling me fool, ASS, ignorant etc because I reject your nonBiblical views.
I say attempted because your rudeness is water off a ducks back. Having been 'grilled' by the KJB and faced Islamic fundamentalists your hissy fits are nothing.
You claim SDA's consider 'they have the right to judge or condemn other Christians who do not follow their convictions.' So it is okay for you to judge and condemn others. But they don't have the same privilege!
BTW having preached in 40+ SDA churches I cannot once remember anyone saying we have to honour the Sabbath to be saved. As a nonSabbaterian I was repeatedly invited back to speak. Sorta puts a hole in your story!
---Warwick on 9/19/09|
//They choose to honour the Sabbath, and why should't they? Why shouldn't they believe we are wrong in not honouring it?
Yes the Word of God as found in Romans 14:5 gives them the right to honor their convictions as to the observance of a holy day.
What brings them into conflict with other Christians is their belief they have the right to judge or condemn other Christians who do not follow their convictions. In that they truly usurp the authority that only the Lord has.
Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
---lee on 9/18/09|
Gary I cannot comment upon your experience and would never suggest any SDA church I preached in was full of perfect Christians. There is no such church.
As to legalism, I met a few but they were mostly of the old guard. And legalists aren't limited to the SDA church.
As to what is permitted upon the Sabbath I understand that is something important to Sabbaterians. They choose to honour the Sabbath, and why should't they. Why shouldn't they believe we are wrong in not honouring it? We have people here who insist they are Christian but believe God used evolution to create! Who is perfect?
I have not struck racism in an SDA church, just the opposite.
---Warwick on 9/18/09|
I wish I could say that all SDA are great and wonderful Christians. But honestly I cannot. The church I am a member of is 40% black and we have a number of other nationalisties. We do not have the problem mentioned about race.
Many years ago many churches not just ours had this problem. But now we and others have been moving pass this.
On legalists we have our share. That I must also admit. But I have had Baptist and others tell me I am going to hell also.
What I want to concentrate on is what does the Bible teach. I also want to practice love to all. For truth without love is useles.
---Samuel on 9/17/09|
Yes, I would agree that Adventists are in generally very moral and ethical people.
In fact, my sister-in-law is a SDA and we can to some degree discuss things of interest.
However, the problem we often face is the radical hardshell legalist wing of the SDA who for one will tell you that ministers (like you) who do not preach the Sabbath are instruments of Satan, you are a liar if you say you love Jesus but do not observe the OT Sabbath, and other discrimatory judgmental things.
Read 'Amazing Facts That Affect You' a series of judgmental and discrimatory publications against other Christians.
Such things like that truly make it hard for the SDA who are truly Christians to relate to other Christians.
---lee on 9/17/09|
Warwick - I'm glad you had good experiences with the SDA.
I attended an SDA church for many years and found the members the most closed minded people I had ever known. The leaders taught that SDAs should not associate with non-SDAs. I found it quite amuzing at one Bible Study on the Sabbath - they couldn't agree on what they were allowed to do on the Sabbath. It was sad to see a bunch of adults rationalizing so they could basically do whatever they pleased on the Sabbath.
They are extremely racist. More than one member told me the SDA church is probably the most racist of all denominations. Because I am white and was going to a predominately black church, there were functions I was told I could attend, BUT NOT PARTICIPATE.
---Gary on 9/16/09|
I have preached in 40+ SDA churches, as well as many other denominations. This gives me considerable knowledge of the teachings, attitudes, and customs different denominations hold.
I often lead preService Bible-studies, and found Adventists well versed in Scripture. I was never asked to avoid any Biblical subject. Certainly we disagreed on certain beliefs but they were open to consider my views.
From 20+ years of preaching experience I believe the average Adventist is considerably more Bible literate than people of other denominations.
I have also been billeted in many Adventist homes and had open discussions there on points of disagreement.
I have also found them very open to nonAdventist literature.
---Warwick on 9/16/09|
//My experience with my SDA friends are that they are NOT willing to spend the time looking at the scriptures when I want to show them something that contradicts what they have been taught.
And that has been my experience with the Jehovah's Witnesses as well. In fact they will not even look at something in a book I have shown them.
Most people do not realize it but the founder of the JWs, Charles Taze Russell, had as his early mentors the Seventh Day Adventists. I guess both groups are really kissing cousins.
It is simply a matter of ignorance and arrogance as well as fear of the truth.
---lee on 9/14/09|
Of course, the book being based upon reliable historical records may be on the list of forbidden reading by the SDA....lee on 9/13/09
LOL!! The SDA are actually taught to "not receive" anything that contradicts their teaching, EVEN IF IT IS THE SCRIPTURE. That comes directly from their "prophet" Ellen White.
My experience with my SDA friends are that they are NOT willing to spend the time looking at the scriptures when I want to show them something that contradicts what they have been taught. They can't comprehend that they might have been taught something wrong.
---Gary on 9/13/09|
No Jerry, I really do not have to 'invent' history as I go along. If you really want the learn the truth, suggest you acquire a book I have on the subject by Matthew E. Narramore 'Tithing: Low-Realm, Obsolete, & Defunct'
Of course, the book being based upon reliable historical records may be on the list of forbidden reading by the SDA. You will have to check on this one.
---lee on 9/13/09|
jerry6593 - Around 600 AD, when tithing was brought into the church, it was still ONLY on crops and animals. By the middle of the 13th century, the Church's claim to tithes was extended to include the poultry of the yard and the cattle of the stall, to the catch of fish and the game of the forests. Had tithing in the Old Testament been on everything as some have claimed, there would have been no need to expand the definition.
Tithing on income, as many protestant churches teach it today, was "invented" in the second half of the 1800s. It was pure manipulation and a re-wording of God's word to bring in more money. To say we must "adapt" God's Word to the times is to say God didn't provide for the future in His Word.
---Gary on 9/12/09|
Lee: "Tithing was an invention created several years after the Reformation"
"The early church's expectation that every Christian would tithe found formal expression at the Synod of Macon in 585, which embedded the practice in canon law. A millennium later, the Council of Trent sharpened this law's teeth: it provided for excommunication if any Catholic declined to contribute his tithe. This, despite the stain in the Church's monetary record that Luther had so recently uncovered in his critique of papal indulgences." (Colin Hansen, ChristianHistory dot net, 8-8-2008)
Do you make up history as you go?
---jerry6593 on 9/12/09|
//The Roman Catholic church prohibited asking for tithes for centuries.
They were doing very well selling indulgences even around the turn of the 1st millenium when old Chaucer complained that when a coin rings in the pan, a soul from purgatory springs (or something to that effect).
Tithing was an invention created several years after the Reformation and really took advantage of the Biblical ignorance of people.
---lee on 9/10/09|
The Roman Catholic church prohibited asking for tithes for centuries. The Protestants, until the twentieth century, also shunned the practice. In both cases, the custom was started in order to build an edifice. Christians give voluntary offerings and alms with joy *3. Acts 15:20, 29 do not mention tithing. However, Romans 14.
*1 Acts 13:39, Romans 3:20, 28, 8:1-17, Galatians 1:6-9, 2:16, 3:10-13.
*2 Job 36:15, Psalm 12:5, 72:4, Ecclesiastes 7:7, Ezekiel 22:7, 29.
*3 Romans 15:26, 1Corinthians 16:1-3, 2 Corinthians 8, 9:5 (covetousness), 7 (necessity = obligation, commandment).
---Glenn on 9/10/09|
Preachers who try to place others under the curse of the law violate scripture *1. Tithes were salaries paid only in Israel by Israelites, on comestible crops, and clean domesticated animals (Leviticus 27:30-32). Tithes were not always accepted, Deuteronomy 23:18. Tithes were not paid on money owed, Matthew 5:23-24. A "Tithe" used for other than salaries, or exceeding the median salary, or excluding some workers, is a Malachi 3:9 curse, and was a form of theft. For the first few centuries, most giving was to the poor *2. Also, many church ministries, like many government ministries, are both extravagant and unaccountable to the common folk.
---Glenn on 9/10/09|
Well said lee,
In addition, Abram kept "nothing" for himself from that battle, except "what the what the young men have eaten, and the share of the men who went with me..."
---Rod on 9/9/09|
The view that since Abraham paid the tithe Melchizedek, King of Salem (Gen. 14:20), does not teach tithing for the church.
What Abraham donated was from the spoils of battle (Hebrews 7:4), not from his personal piggy bank. So effectively, it cost him NOTHING.
There is nothing that states God instructed Abraham to tithe.
And there is no scriptural basis to teach that Abraham (who was a very wealthy person) ever gave another tithe in his entire life.
Hence there is no scriptural evidence to suggest that Abrahams tithe to Melchizedek is Gods pattern for Christian in the New Covenant.
---lee on 9/9/09|
George - Abraham GAVE a tithe to one King, and GAVE the other 90% to another King. No pastor teaches tithing that way. It is NOT what tithing teachers teach.
KJV says "after the order of Melchisedec" not according to.
Verse 15:...after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest
It is the priesthood of Jesus that continues forever, NOT that of Melchisedec.
Verses 5, 12, and 18 show us the command to tithe was disanulled.
Malachi 3:8-10 is referring specifically to the Levitical tithe which ended, without question, at the cross. Pastors canNOT correctly use robbing God with any other tithe.
Any tithing before the law, or after the law, is free-will giving, NOT commanded by God.
---Gary on 9/9/09|
The tithe existed before the law (Genesis 14:20), during the law, and after the law. Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives Hebrews 7:8. Notice the words receive and receives are present tense. Hebrews was written after the death burial and ressurection of our Lord Jesus. The Word in Hebrews 7 says of Jesus "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek...because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood." The only function of Melcheizedek is to receive tithes.
---George on 9/8/09|
//That tenth of the tithe is the ONLY tithe that wound up at the storehouse.
Thank you very much!
Unfortunately most of us have little or no knowledge of that.
Preachers that pitch the tithe simply do not inform us of that, underlying the belief that the storehouse has to be the church.
Hence they discourage giving to other charities that are not under their control.
I found that to be the case in a Bible church where I used to live.
---lee on 8/27/09|
Hebrews 7:2: To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all,
Hebrews 7:4: Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Hebrews 7:5: And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law,
Hebrews 7:6: But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham,
Hebrews 7:8: And here men that die receive tithes,
Hebrews 7:9: And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Hebrews7:1-10 - tithe is mentioned in 6 of the verses.
---Gary on 8/27/09|
>dconklin - Hebrews 7:1-10 is talking about tithes.
It does not say that.
Your other post about tithe to Lee was quite interesting!
---dconklin on 8/27/09|
Lee - to keep it accurate, it is the second tithe, or festival tithe that you eat and drink the tithe. The Levitical tithe is the first tithe which is referred to as The Lord's tithe.
The people's tithe did NOT go to the temple, thus did not go to the storehouse in the first place. See Nehemiah 10:37-38 which say the firstfruits were taken to the temple and the tithe was taken to the Levites to go into their cities. THEN, the Levites took a TENTH OF THE TITHE to the temple. That tenth of the tithe is the ONLY tithe that wound up at the storehouse. Malachi 3:8-10 is being spoken to the priests. Malachi 3:10 re storehouse canNOT be spoken to the people since their tithe never reached the temple.
---Gary on 8/27/09|
dconklin - Hebrews 7:1-10 is talking about tithes. No other commandments or laws are being spoken of. Then in verse 11, we are told that had the Levitical priesthood been of perfection, we wouldn't have needed a new priesthood. Then in verse 12 we are told that there was of necessity a change of the law when the priesthood is changed. The ONLY law mentioned in all this is the command to tithe.
Galatians 4:5 tells us that Jesus redeemed those who were under the law. Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 tell us how Jesus redeemed those under the law by nailing the laws to the cross.
Can't be any clearer that that!
---Gary on 8/26/09|
//God will lead you where He wants your money.
Mal 3:10 Bring the full tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house.
Those that advocate the tithe argue as to what the storehouse is, the church or other charities.
Usually these same ministers will condemn the use of alcohol despite the fact one may take the tithe and purchase wine or strong drink if the distance is too far.
Dt. 14:25-26 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth ...
---lee on 8/26/09|
They truly love the Lord and give generously to the support of His church.
---lee on 8/26/09
God's church is not a building. God's church is where He wants you.
God will lead you where He wants your money. It may be a different ministry. It may be a homeless shelter.
And if you cant give of your money, give of your time. Many places need your help.
---NurseRobert on 8/26/09|
>Hebrews 7:12 tells us there is necessity in changing the law with the change of a priesthood.
Could refer to the sacrificial offerings.
---dconklin on 8/26/09|
Hebrews 7:5 shows that Levi was commanded to receive the tithe under the law.
Hebrews 7:12 tells us there is necessity in changing the law with the change of a priesthood.
Hebrews 7:18 tells us the laws under the Levitical priesthood were abolished, including the tithe. In fact, up to verse 18 the ONLY law or command being spoken of is tithing. Therefore, 7:18 confirms that tithing ended with the ending of the Levitical priesthood.
Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 also tell us the law ended. Galatians 4:4-5 tell us Jesus redeemed the Hebrews from the law. (The Gentiles were NEVER under the law.) And Galatians 3:10 tell us those who reject Jesus and continue putting themselves under the law will be cursed by the law.
---Gary on 8/26/09|
NurseRobert - I have for many years been called upon to do the audit on a church I formerly was a member of.
All too often it is about 10 percent of the people give over 90 percent of the money to the work of the church.
And I have done tax returns for many of these people and know for a fact that they claim far more on their tax returns than what miserable coinage they have given to their church.
For some that have truly given much, even to a sacrifice, I can only envy them wishing that I could do as much or have those convictions. They truly love the Lord and give generously to the support of His church.
---lee on 8/26/09|
Leo, spend a lot of time praying about this. Asked to see the financial statements of the church. (you should have get to see these at least once a year anyway - do they have business meetings?)
Ask God where HE wants your money..
---NurseRobert on 8/26/09|
do what the Lord tells you to do.
---alice on 8/26/09|
Having seen poverty among our military personnel, the tithe really is an inequitable system. While for an E-2 sailor living in substandard housing with a wife and kid, the tithe is really food off his table while for a successful dentist, it is simply a good and necessary tax deduction.
I personally believe the New Testament tells us to give in accordance to how God has blessed one materially. It should not be necessary for one to sacrifice ones own livelihood to support the church or go to the bank and borrow money to met the tithe.
In the old days the church sold indulgences, then after that failed, they invented the Christian tithe, both being injustices wrought by false teachings of the clergy.
---lee on 8/26/09|
>What you quote is still under the OLD TESTAMENT. The New Testament doesn't begin until AFTER Jesus died on the cross.
That's a variant of the Marcion heresy which deprecates the value of the OT. I'm a whole Bible Christian. The OT is the Gospel concealed, the NT is the Gospel revealed. the book of Revelation has over 2500 echoes and allusions to the OT. So, if you don't know the OT you cannot understand the book.
---dconklin on 8/26/09|
dconklin - What you quote is still under the OLD TESTAMENT. The New Testament doesn't begin until AFTER Jesus died on the cross.
Jesus was talking to the law keeper who, like Jesus, were under the law. Jesus was born, lived, and died under the law, under the Old Testament.
---Gary on 8/24/09|
The issue of tithing was only given to the Nation of Israel and under the Old Covenant.
We are now under a New Covenant. Anyone who tells you that you need to give your tithe falls under the catagory of those who are mentioned in 2 Peter Chapter Two.
---Rob on 8/24/09|
>You canNOT tithe or give an offering to God in the New Testament.
Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
---dconklin on 8/24/09|
Nicole - God has NOT asked 10% from us. God NEVER commanded anyone to give to Him 10% of what man made or earned. The Lord's tithe was ALWAYS on the miraculous increase from GOD, not man. Church leaders are teaching a lie. Just open your Bible and read it.
In the New Testament, the ONLY way we can give to the Lord is shown in Matthew 25:42-45. Giving to a church is NOT giving to God.
In the O.T., the tithe belonged to God and He gave the tithe to the Levites. To give offerings to God in the O.T. it HAD TO BE A BURNT OFFERING. You canNOT tithe or give an offering to God in the New Testament.
---Gary on 8/22/09|
I grieve when I hear a minister preach that an Old Testament practice such as tithing are binding on Christians today.
While I truly believe Christians should give generously to the work of the Lord, they should give only in accordance to how God has blessed them.
RC Sproul recently published his August Tabletalk devotional guide and it was all in promotion of the OT tithe.
I wrote him that the church used to sell indulgences and after that went out of style they invented the Christian tithe.
Both are exploitation of the laity by the clergy.
Most likely I will quit supporting his ministry.
---Lee on 8/22/09|
|Read These Insightful Articles About Education
Well your giving it to God not to man so whatever God puts on your heart to do with your money you do it.
---Stacey on 8/22/09|
Gracie - Don't be tricked by preachers who tell you Malachi 3:8-10 was addressing the people. It wasn't. It was addressed to the priests. The whole book of Malachi is addressed to the priests. Just starting reading from chapter 1.
The people did NOT take their tithe to the Temple. That is false teaching. See Nehemiah 10:37-38 and you will see the firstfruits were taken to the temple, the tithe was taken to the Levites to go into their cities, and the Levites took a tenth of the tithe to the storehouse - the ONLY part of the tithe that went to the storehouse.
---Gary on 8/22/09|
Tithing is more important than alot of us admit to. And to think, 10% isn't really asking for much. That means that amount of your earnings and even time! Our father deserves so much more, and only asks for little. But we often still choose to deny the many blessings He has in store for us.
---Nicole on 8/22/09|
ABSOLUTELY give wherever you want to maximize the gospel!
Some churches are indeed big businesses. But even true churches can be less efficient. Who is to say that you can't buy tracts with that money and distribute them yourself? Or that you can't give to a missionary who could really use that money instead of your local church?
Since when was it that you give tithes to the church? you give it to God. Giving to the church is supposed to be primarily to further the gospel anyway.
---Jake on 8/22/09|
Mal 3:8-12 Do Not Rob God
"Will a man rob God?
Yet you have robbed Me!But you say,
'In what way have we robbed You?'
In tithes and offerings.
9 You are cursed with a curse,For you have robbed Me,Even this whole nation.
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,And try Me now in this,"Says the LORD of hosts,
"If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.
---Gracie on 8/21/09|
Lawrence - Since you somehow think that Matthew 22:21 requires you to tithe, which tithing command do you follow?
Leviticus 27:30-34 - tithing of the land and animals
Deuteronomy 14:22-27 - tithing of the land only, and the first-born animals
Deuteronomy 14:28-29 - tithing of the land
Those are the only commands God gave to tithe.
Please open your Bible and give me the verses that show you are to tithe on anything that man makes or earns. I only find tithing to be commanded on the miraculous increase from God and never on man's labor. Scripture, please.
---Gary on 7/30/09|
larry - Please give scripture where churches need money for anything other than the preachers pay.
Giving to the church is NOT giving to God. Nowhere in the scriptures did God ever say that giving to a church is giving to Him.
The Word of God says we are to take care of our immediate family and relatives before we give to anything else.
1 Timothy 5:8 (NIV): If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Yet pastors say you are to give to the church first. That is NOT biblical.
When are you people going to wake up to the truth!
---Gary on 7/30/09|
Most churches have a method for giving a benevolence offering and you always have the option of shopping yourself and taking delivery of food or other non-perishables to the local food bank or soup kitchen.
If you are not in one accord with the teaching of this congreation you should probably leave but pray first and then pray again and again.
God will give you guidance.
You err to suggest that your church does not need the money. What you are really saying is that others cover the expenses of the church, so why don't I do something else with God's money he's entrusted to me.
---larry on 7/30/09|
God's people Are to Tithe. Some say there's No scriptural basis, But, there is. Matt.22 v 21, about the coin, render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars(taxes), render unto God the things are God's(Tithes & Offerings) & it must be with love, even generously given without grudges. If you do not, then your robbing God. God's Ministers Are accountable for the money recieved.
---Lawrence on 7/30/09|
frank....You think those churches didn't exist? They were real churches.
---SusieB on 7/30/09|
Most "so-called" churches have turned into money changers and do not follow or teach the Word of God. Man changes the Word to suit his needs.
Personally, I'm disgusted with the local churches.
---Gary on 7/29/09|
The seven churches are symolic, seven being the term of the day to express "universal." The seven churches are not grand cathedrals. The seven churches are the universal "church" of jesus and his followers. We don't need a grand structure to see jesus...that's all a distraction from the truth. Let the churches go, give to the needy, pray anywhere.
---frank_cos on 7/29/09|
frank.....Where were the seven churches in Revelation meeting?
---SusieB on 7/29/09|
Are you kidding? The larger the church the larger the utility bills upkeep etc.Also I'm sure your church provides for many outreach programs for the poor. Besides the Bible says tithe.
---shirley on 7/28/09
My church has over 3000 people. They only tithe 3.5%, yet the budget is well over $6 million dollars. There are 57 full time staff members, and three campuses with multi-million dollar buildings - all paid for.
They only give 10% of that budget to missions and 2% to the poor, but think nothing about paying $75K to a full time staffer to be "athletics pastor" over basketball, soccar, volleyball, softball, and golf! If their needs are met to excess, why not give the other 3% to the Salvation Army instead?
---obewan on 7/29/09|
The tithe is voluntary and not mandatory for today. If you want to tithe,do so, but you will not be damned to Hell, if you do not tithe. Pray and ask the Lord to direct you on this. I did. God loves a cheerful giver not one who has been beaten down and forced to give to a church or person. I do feel we should always go to the house of the Lord with a monetary gift, no matter how small or large, for that matter. That is between you and God.
Every church needs support from their members, I feel.Even large churches have bills to meet. You can split your money between your church and other ministries. It is your money. Not the churches money. Please God first.
---Robyn on 7/28/09|
anon - Nowhere in the scriptures did God ever give the Christian Church permission to accept His tithe. The Word says the tithe belongs to God and He gave the tithe to the Levites. The people took their tithes to the Levites and the Levites took a tithe of the tithe to the temple. Only the tenth of the tithe from the Levites ever went to the storehouse.
shirley - scripture please. Where does the Bible tell us to tithe? You might be surprised if you actually opened a Bible and read it. Show me where God tells ANYONE to tithe on their income.
This is nothing but false teaching by incompetent preachers.
---Gary on 7/28/09|
Jesus, in my interpretation, would be a bit shocked at the decadance we see in churches today and throughout history. He taught anywhere a crowd would gather...the notion of mega churches and cathedrals was not his. I say give that money to the poor, sell off those huge priperties, teach in the fields, under tents, in the forest, wherever. Get back to what matters...his meaning.
---frank on 7/28/09|
I agree the Bible says to tithe. And I am, however where does the Bible say my tithe must all go to the local church. Our church seems to continually spend money. I just think my tithe would be best spent on missions. What percentage of a churches budget should be spent on building compared to missions to less fortunate people?
---leo8734 on 7/28/09|
Are you kidding? The larger the church the larger the utility bills upkeep etc.Also I'm sure your church provides for many outreach programs for the poor,sick and children.Besides the Bible says tithe.
---shirley on 7/28/09|
Find out how much of your tithe goes poor and disabled people.
If your church teaches that tithing is required today, and that the whole tithe goes to the local church, and they do not give 1/3 of all tithe money to poor or disabled people, then they are in violation of the scriptures they teach.
There are no two ways about it, and your pastor cannot have it both ways. Just ask him about the "poor tithe" in the Old Testament. It is right in there with the other scriptures he insists on.
If your church does not allow you to earmark 1/3 of your gifts to the poor, then I would reduce their tithe and give the balance to someone that cares for the poor.
---obewan on 7/28/09|
You're not giving it to your church, you're giving it to God. In the natural, you're giving it to your church, but because God said to bring all your tithes into the storehouse, you're obeying GOD, not your church, so you're actually obeying God's word and giving to God out of obedience. The church is just a means to get it to God. Let them do with it what they may.
Look at it that way and God will bless you back a hundredfold.
---anon on 7/28/09|
Do they not have scholorships or other such funding opportunities whereby you can choose where the money goes?
---stephen on 7/28/09|
You can do what you want to do, but however if you're taking time to attend that church ,use their electricity,bathroom facilities etc.. then maybe you can help support them,that's where some of the money goes to keep the church building going so the ministers CAN minister to others in the church. I tithe because God put me in the church I'm in & I want to further the ministry.
---candice on 7/27/09|
How do you know that your church doesn't need your tithes?
---SusieB on 7/27/09|
How do you know that your church does not need it? Are you on the budget committee, and privy to the financial information?
I would pray and ask the Lord what HE thinks, and then decide based on the leading of the Holy Spirit.
---Trish9863 on 7/27/09|