Rod: "Again, I ask, Who are the prophets who have prophesied the future for the last two thousand years? And what have they said? Who are the prophets today telling the future?"
Open your spiritual eyes and you can see several of them in every major city in the world. They preach, but do not belong to denominational "churches" becasue they don't adhere to their denominational doctrines. You see them on the street corners proclaiming the gospel - the kingdom of God. Most people passing them by think of them as crazy - even christians. This is why most christians will think of the two prophets in Revelation as crazy. And you, too, Ron, will be one of them. Ask God to have one personally visit you.
---Steveng on 8/13/09|
The end times will be a normal time for the people and christians who go through it. Christians think that the end times should be worse than what is happening today only because they are living through it. They get 'their' idea of what the end times should be through reading books and watching movies from the authors' and producers' vain imaginations.
---Steveng on 8/13/09|
Oh, and by the way, if you are in the neighborhood of Portland Oregon there are two prophets that I've known for over twenty years. One preaches in Pioneer Square and the other has been sitting in his chair a couple of blocks northeast of Pioneer Square. The one sitting in his chair is at that same corner every single day. The last time I saw them was during my trip to Portland last year while visiting a group of christians. I visit them every couple of years.
---Steveng on 8/13/09|
There will not be a time when all the Christians will disappear. The times of tribulation will prove our trur faith in Christ. Same as 'once saved, always saved' WRONG!
---keryl on 8/13/09|
Again, I ask, Who are the prophets who have prophesied the future for the last two thousand years? And what have they said? Who are the prophets today telling the future?
---Rod on 8/13/09|
guess you missed WHO was speaking ...which is why Paul STATED HE cannot SAVE anyone
self professing RELIGIOUS christianity serves their lie that now is the ONLY time to be saved DISMISSING Gods Truth that says MANY are CALLED FEW are CHOSEN ...FEW are CHOSEN today to be CALLED to what? TRUTH
rcc christian fables (like a 'rapture') are STILL served by HER daughters (PROTEST-ants) and THEIR pagan christ 2Corin 11:4
the nation of Israel ARE Gods CHOSEN people all TRUE Christians are GRAFTED in
READ Gods Truth CAREFULLY ...Christ ONLY returns ONCE not twice as the lies of rapture teach this is why 1Corin 15 IS A MYSTERY
---Rhonda on 8/13/09|
Rod, Two of GOD's Prophets that I pay attention to are Rev. Elisabeth Elijah Nikomia of "AMIGHTYWIND" and Dr. Jonathan Hansen of "World Ministries". AMIGHTYWIND also has "guest Prophets" named "Vinnie" and "Syl". GOD does not call many of the high-and-mighty. GOD's are those who don't make a show-case of themselves but, are humble and pliable and willing to obey GOD and deliver the Messages precisely as He dictates. The Scriptures say "Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for so they did of the FALSE PROPHETS." The Prophets of Bible were never popular and many were killed by the people because their Messages spoke of Judgment and Warning. So it is today...nothing has changed.
---Gordon on 8/13/09|
MarkV, I do not believe the "church" makes up all of Israel. Ezekiel 37 and Jeremiah 31 are prophecies concerning the Southern and Northern Kingdoms (House of Judah/ House of Israel) that simply have NOT happened yet. Even Zech. 12 shows the eyes of Judah being opened.
We (speaking in general) get this idea that Jews don't believe in Messiah, they do. They rejected Yehoshua because they expected the conquering king but instead got the suffering servant. When the conquering king returns, actually just before, their eyes will begin to open and they will accept Yehoshua as their Messiah as we have.
---Ken_Rank on 8/13/09|
Ken, When I said the "Elect" I meant only the elect. I did not mention Israel because not all Israel is Israel, only those who are of the elect of Israel are the Church, of the body of Christ. I know many continue to speak about Israel, since promise were made to Israel but when Paul wrote that "all Israel will be saved" he didn't mean that at some point every Jewish person would find salvation, for in the same chapter he wrote, "If by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them" and again in the same chapter he said, "And they (individual Jewish people) also , if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grated in." There is that tiny "If"
---MarkV. on 8/13/09|
Rod: "Steveng,I hear accusations and an apparent attempt to be insulting, but I saw no answer to the questions that were addressed to Gordon, which you are more than free to answer for him."
You surely are an impatient person. Do you demand such answers from God also? Besides, there are times when the Holy Spirit doesn't give me an answer. I need to be patient whith His answers. My time is also limited - spending only an hour to an hour and a half on the computer blogs during my dinner time. I cannot answer all the posts that are written.
---Steveng on 8/12/09|
Rod: "Gordon, ...You said you don't believe God has very many holy Prophets, is that a prophecy?"
No, it's a fact when in today's world the work is plenty to warn the people, but the workers are few. You see, christians don't truly believe we are living in the end times. They think that the end times are suppose to be worse than what we see today. But to what do they compare the end times? The prophesy books written by man's imagination? The movies produced by man's imagination? Sure, Scripture compares the end times to Noah's time, but how do you know that Noah's time isn't what we see today? That's why prophets are need to prepare people for the coming of Christ and the apostles to perform miracles to prove God's existance.
---Steveng on 8/12/09|
Steveng,I hear accusations and an apparent attempt to be insulting, but I saw no answer to the questions that were addressed to Gordon, which you are more than free to answer for him.
Again, I ask, Who are the prophets who have prophesied the future for the last two thousand years? And what have they said? Who are the prophets today telling the future?
Gordon, I don't want you to feel left out. You said you don't believe God has very many holy Prophets, is that a prophecy? But again, who are the present day prophets.
---Rod on 8/12/09|
Greetings MarkV. Lately I have gotten away from the use of the word church (when I can) because it really is not a good translation of ecclesia. The first meaning would be "called out" or "called out ones" and then gathering, by default an assembly. Israel is a term God used over 20 times to simply refer to "His people." And knowing that Ezekiel 37 and Jer 31/Heb 8 show the Southern and Northern Kingdoms as not being reconciled YET... AND because Zech 12:10 shows the veil coming off the eyes of Judah in regards to WHO Yehoshua (Jesus) was/is, I can't say they are not the elect as well.
That veil is removed at his coming (see last ref.) and it is at his coming that ALL the elect are gathered. (Matt 24)
---Ken_Rank on 8/12/09|
Ken, the reason the blog are been close is that they have reached 75 responses. This blog is getting close, as of now it is at 63 and counting.
Concerning your question on Israel never mentioned to be Raptured, or taken with the Church, is because all of the elect are the Church. Those chosen by God from the foundations of the world. Every believer whether Jew or Greek, Gentiles, who come to Christ are the elect. Gathered from all corners of the world.
Concerning the Sinia covenant, in Context, that covenant was not mentioned in the passage that I gave you in Eze. If it was I would have mentioned it. The New Covenant is everlasting. No more covenants after that one that I know of.
---MarkV. on 8/12/09|
Sorry to disagree with you.
Rev 7:14 "I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb".
I would suggest you read 1 Maccabees if you want to read about tribulation. Many attrocities and an event similiar to the Abomination of Desolation occurred.
All of these events are bad but no way do they compare to the Trumpet and Bowl judgments.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/11/09|
MarkV: "What you need is to join a Godly Church again, and become a part of the body of Christ, "The Church""
My church is not made from man's religion. Every denominational "church" have their own traditions, ways of living, and interpretations of the bible. A newly born christian whould be totaly confused about which is the true church.
My church is whenever two or more people are gathered, there will Jesus be. There is a mistaken doctrine that most christians believe and that is they must "join" a church to get saved. A person can have a relationhip with God without denominational "churches." Must your earthly friend belong to the same organization as you to be friends?
---Steveng on 8/11/09|
The only time the words "great tribulation" occur is in reference to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem which has already happened.
If you take the verses starting in Matt 24:1 and Luke 21:5 and blend the information you get a clear and concise reading of the temple and its destruction and the great tribulation that has no rival.
And if you have a mind to read a detailed account in the book of Joesepus, you will see the depths of the tribulation of that time.
---Ryk on 8/11/09|
MarkV, what is with the closing of many blogs?
I think you left out the covenant at Sinai, though we will likely not come to an agreement there. That covenant was called everlasting, and seeing God had to know Israel would fall short before he called it everlasting, he still did call it that. Also, the word chadasha and it's Greek counterpart kainos, both imply a renewing of the covenant rather than a new one.
That aside, your points are valid and the reason I brought it up was because, Israel is never said to be raptured but rather returned to the land. If we are a part of Israel, how then does that not apply to us?
---Ken_Rank on 8/11/09|
You have said many times that we will not recognize that we are living in the tribulation. Please help us by providing proof that we ARE living in the Tribulation. I will provide proof that we are NOT.
I believe you, Ken, and MarkV may disagree, but Tribulation=Wrath in escatology.
Rev. 6 first identifies that the wrath of the Lamb is starting. The beginning of the Tribulation starts when the Seventh seal opens, accompanied by silence.
Immediately after that, begins the Trumpet judgments. I have not seen any evidence, current, historical, or geological that proves any of the trumpet or bowl judgments have already occured.
We are NOT living in the tribulation.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/11/09|
Rod, The Old Testament is full of GOD's Prophets. Then, Ephesians 4:11-12 states that He set up His Prophets within the Church to help minister to the Church. Minister, that is, with the Gift they were given of Prophecying GOD's immediate Messages and Words to the Church, or to whomever. There is given no time limit on the Office of the Prophets within the Church, so, we can therefore believe that it's for as long as the Church dwells on Earth. I don't believe that GOD has very many holy Prophets, certainly not as many false prophets as Satan has planted in the Church. But, the holy Prophets are there nevertheless. Using Prophets is simply one of the ways that GOD works among His people, and in the World.
---Gordon on 8/11/09|
Steven G. you made the same comment to Rod that you did to me on the "Make disciples not churchgoers" blog. Seems you are bringing Gods judgment on those who do not live up to your expectations of Scripture? Don't you wonder maybe you are seeing too many prophets on your travels that you are beginning to believe what they are telling you? What you need is to join a Godly Church again, and become a part of the body of Christ, "The Church"
---MarkV. on 8/10/09|
Rod: ""God has always had Prophets," where is the scripture to back up that statement? Also, who have been the Prophets for the last two thousand years foretelling the future?"
You will be a person that will mock the two prophets mentioned in Revelation because of your thinking. Apparently you do not know the duties of a prophet of God. Prophets have always existed - even until now - doing God's work without public recognition (read Ezekiel 33:1-9). Today's christians will not recognize that we are living in the tribulation 'because' they are living in the tribulation.
---Steveng on 8/10/09|
MarkV, thanks for hanging in there with me. For the most part, I think we are on the same page. I agree with "check it out with the Word of God." Discussing specific verses is helpful. While analyzing a Text, there can be different opinions as to what is literal or what may be metaphores. It would be helpful to discuss why a passage should be literal and what it means, or investigate the possibilty of it being a metaphore.
Some of the circular reasoning here bothers me, I can't get a handle on a concept. It's like trying to hold onto a grease pig.
If you haven't, you might want to google "circular reasoning" for a definition.
---Rod on 8/10/09|
Gordon,when you say, "God has always had Prophets," where is the scripture to back up that statement? Also, who have been the Prophets for the last two thousand years foretelling the future? and what have they foretold? Where is the scripture that says,"God has placed a desire in the hearts of His people to find out what will happen..." Where is the scripture that says we are to go to God to find out the future?
"GOD is doing the same today, and the Worldwide "Flood" will be dramatically worse." Where is the scripture that says He is doing that today? There may be some scripture for the last comment, and those can be discussed, which may or may apply for today.
---Rod on 8/10/09|
Ken, concerning your question The Rapture does not happen" blog, Ezekiel 37:15-23 in context, when the vision ended and Ezekiel was given an object lesson which his people observed (vv.18,20). This example or drama of uniting two sticks offered a second illustration that God will not only regather Israelites to their land, but will for the first time since 931 B.C. (the end of Solomon's reign, 1 Kings 11:26-40) restore union between Israel and Judah (vv. 19,21,22) God made three promises that summarized His future plans for Israel, Restoration, unification, and purification, (vv. 21:2-v.22-v. 23). These promises bring to fulfillment the Abrahamic Covenant, the Davidic Covenant and the New Covenant Jer. 31.
---MarkV. on 8/10/09|
Rod, you read my post wrong. I am not suggesting that what I say is the Truth, I meant that many here have the Truth and very much like for others to hear it, and if it is the Truth, God will use the Truth for His own purpose. If Scripture is given, it is not speculation. All we have to do is check it with the Word of God and make our own choice. I have been edified by many here, and their passion for Christ. Many here are very advanced with the Word of God and God wants brothers and sister to edify each other.
The SDA blog, has gone on for a long time, with no end in sight, the same people, the same answers the same Sabbath. Nothing has changed since I came on line.
You are not been harsh, you just understood me wrong.
---MarkV. on 8/9/09|
Rod, GOD has always had Prophets among His people who will speak to the people that which the LORD tells them to speak regarding things that are to come. And it will only consist of what GOD wants to reveal to them. GOD, therefore, has placed a desire in the hearts of His people to want to know about things of the Future. And GOD's people are to go to GOD to find out what will happen, not to witches, mediums, warlocks, etc. for they are phonies connected to Satan's kingdom. GOD warned Noah that He would flood the World in Judgment because of the wickedness of mankind. He gave Noah 120 years to build the Arc and to warn the people of the coming Flood. GOD is doing the same today, and the Worldwide "Flood" will be dramatically worse.
---Gordon on 8/9/09|
One reason I post on these blogs is to help others think, and to stimulate myself to think from others comments.
So, I was thinking...it's not the topic, per se, that I react to, it's the systematic interpretation that I react to. If we talk about a observation, interpretation, and application of a specific passage of scripture, that concept is up for discussion. But when people put together a system from selecting a verse here or there that may not be used in the proper context, that is endless speculation. The pre-trib rapture is a deduction of a system of speculation, which makes it some kind of circular reasoning.
---Rod on 8/9/09|
MarkV. I write in this thread for the general population that reads it, for their edification. Yes, it is up them and God to discern truth from error.
You related that the "SDA blog where they never finish then it is not worth it." I am suggesting details of eschotology is exactly that. You say,"He reveals it to others whom are ready," suggesting that when one believes what you say, they are hearing what God says. Sorry if this sounds harsh, I don't mean it to be. I think Titus 3:9-10 could be applicable to endless speculation.
Speculating that there is a pre-trib rapture lends toward wanting war in the middle east so that the trib. starts, rather than a belief that perhaps the Church grows and takes over the earth.
---Rod on 8/9/09|
Rod, I believe you made your point two or three times. You seem to not like people discussing the end times. I really don't understand why. It is as if you are saying, we have enough here already we don't need to know what is ahead. It could be because you yourself have not taken the time to investigate, or maybe it is hard for you, or maybe you just don't think its important, but let me say that what is written here is not alway the truth, but many times it is. And God knows what to do with the Truth. He reveals it to others whom are ready. I believe if it is like the SDA blog where they never finish then it is not worth it. Here many have something to give that can help another look verses up to make sure what is said is from God.
---MarkV. on 8/8/09|
Why people want to speculate on this topic must not be so simple.
One person says, "They want to talk about His soon appearing."
Others want an escape.
Others want to see the Lord.
Any more reasons? I am just curious, I am not trying to be obnoxious.
I believe there is also something in general that makes people want to know the future.
---Rod on 8/8/09|
Ken, sorry they closed "Rapture doesn't happen" blog. I will answer you here later today. peace
---MarkV. on 8/8/09|
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We do not look for the rapture to escape but to see our Lord Jesus WHO completed the work for us on the cross
He longs to see us too---HE died for us His chosen ones and He says we are "complete IN HIM"
If you are not "saved" then you might not want the rapture to happen. It will happen before the horrors of the tribulation.
The tribulation will be worse then anything mankind has seen and God will NOT allow HIS own to go through wrath.
Jesus took our wrath on the cross
---june on 8/7/09|
Gordon,I appreciate the attitude that you bring to the topic. You also have little different prospective that I had not heard. I like your view, and I wish I could buy it.
My take is that we should be faithful,righteous, loving, obedient, and holy, because Christ is Who He said He is whether He "delievers" us or not.
He is coming, we need to be faithful and be ready for His coming when or how it takes place. It really doesn't matter if it is pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, post-mill, or whatever.
Paul went through hardships, and God was with him through it all. He went through so much he dispared of life, but God was with him.
---Rod on 8/7/09|
Rod, You have a point about some Saints believing in a Rapture because they are simply wanting to escape. But, it's really that GOD is protecting His faithful servants from His coming Judgment against the lukewarm church and against those of the world who hate Him and His Holy Ways.This is why I stated recently that the ones to be taken in the Rapture(s) are going to be those who are FAITHFUL to Him. Those who are living before Him in Righteousness, Love, Obedience and Holiness. He will bring about a special Escape for them, because the coming Judgment is not for them. They will be celebrating the Lamb's Wedding in Heaven, while the ungodly and the lost are being judged on Earth by Tribulation.
---Gordon on 8/7/09|
I don't believe there willbe a rapture. I Think we are going to be change...in a twinkling of an eye the son of God will stand before us and we will see who "He" really is and it will be eye opening for humanity. There are so many wrong teachings going on right now. deceiving spirits and teachings.
---Carmen on 8/6/09|
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Steveng, It's not vanity of Saints who will be taken in one of the two Raptures when it is GOD Himself who is orchestrating it all. Not many Saints are going to be in the first Rapture. I may not be in it. There's a special price to pay to be in the Bridal Rapture. That price is strict love, obedience, holiness and GOOD ATTITUDE. Many Christians of today compromise in worldliness and do not understand what GOD means when He commands His people to walk in Holiness. It has nothing to do with wearing dowdy clothing and staying out of the movie theaters, although it could include that, IF GOD is calling one to do so. There are different degrees of Rewards for Saints in Heaven. Just as there are different degrees of Torments for the Damned in Hell.
---Gordon on 8/6/09|
"be ready", Jesus says in Matthew 24:44. Anon wrote that being ready means "dwelling in the secret place of the Most High God and abiding under the shadow of the almighty, and in a close, intimate relationship with the Lord" > except for "almighty" being spelled with a small "a", I agree, but would add that being ready includes relating in love with one another, now, the way we will be in the Rapture > Jesus says, "as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (John 13:34) > "as He is, so are we in this world" (1 John 4:17) > "kind to one another, tenderhearted" (Ephesians 4:32) > "submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/6/09|
Rod: "Can someone tell me the fascination that draws people to spend so much time in end time theology?"
Jesus spent a lot of time on it, so He must have thought it important. That's a good enough reason for me.
---jerry6593 on 8/6/09|
Mark E. Great verse in Tim, but I don't see the theme of this thread looking for rewards. I see more that people want to escape this world, maybe that is the motivation to speculate when Christ will come. Notice that Paul is focusing (in Tim)of what one should be doing. There's a difference between longing for His Appearing, and speculating (causing discord)on details of when it will happen. Be ready, in season or out of season. I am not saying never to discuss it, but living for Christ and how to be ready needs to be balanced within the discussion. People will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
---Rod on 8/6/09|
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Gordon: "This "Bridal Rapture" will occur sometime before the Tribulation."
mima: "There is one rapture and it will be pre-tribulation."
How vain to think that today's christians will escape tribulation when christians and godly people all throughout history have experienced their tribulations - and who were never raptured. There are two resurrections. The first is when those in Christ shall rise first and the living shall be caught up with them. These christians must endure until the end.
The second resurrection, which occurs at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, is when all the other dead throughout all of earth's history shall rise and be judged from the Book of Life.
---Steveng on 8/5/09|
Your analogy of the puppy is interesting and I see your point.
But even in light of your analogy, I couldn't call today "the tribulation", without comparing it to some time in history that was really great! I can't think of such a time in the Bible or in history.
In the broad scope of world history, I'd call the present time "somewhat trying" for many people but certainly not "THE tribulation".
And as I said before, when we have a global government with an up-and-coming dynamic and popular leader...then, I'll think, Tribulation.
---Donna66 on 8/5/09|
2 Tim 4:8 "in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing".
People want to talk about Jesus soon appearing!
---Mark_Eaton on 8/5/09|
I don't want to be rude, but some of the things in this thread confirm the concept that this topic produces endless speculation and does not stimulate love and good works.
Can someone tell me the fascination that draws people to spend so much time in end time theology?
---Rod on 8/5/09|
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There is one rapture and it will be pre-tribulation. After the rapture there will be people saved during the tribulation period. And Revelation 24:4 describes What will happen to them, here is the verse,"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
---mima on 8/5/09|
I believe that there will be TWO Raptures. The first Rapture will consist of only a comparable few Saints. They'll make up what is called the Bride of CHRIST. This "Bridal Rapture" will occur sometime before the Tribulation. The second Rapture will include some Saints who missed the first one, who "got their act together" and got right before the LORD. Also, it will include new Believers. There will be people who will receive Salvation sometime during the Tribulation period (despite teachings to the contrary). The second Rapture will occur about somewhere in the middle of the Tribulation. It is also referred to as the "Rapture of the Wedding Guests".
---Gordon on 8/4/09|
"---jerry6593 Your Church of Christ doctrine is false.
---Pastor_Herb on 8/3/09"
I know nothing of the doctrine of the Church of Christ. What I gave was the doctrine of the Bible. If you don't like it, take it up with God. I didn't write it.
---jerry6593 on 8/4/09|
Donna66: "For some reason I thought the tribulation would be worse than things as they are now (although some parts of word even now experience remarkable suffering)"
The reason christians will not think they are living in the tribulation is because they are living in the tribulation. To what do you compare today's tribulation? At the time of Noah? How do you know what you see today is the same as Noah's time.
A good analogy: let's say I only visit you only on your birthdays. On a certain birthday I give you a puppy. The following birthday I exclaim how big the dog has grown. You then replied that it hasn't grown that much. You see, you grew up with the dog and did not notice the growth.
---Steveng on 8/3/09|
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---jerry6593 Your Church of Christ doctrine is false.
---Pastor_Herb on 8/3/09|
There is something I don't get with your explanation that believers will go through the Tribulation but are not destined for wrath.
What is the difference? The Tribulation, Great Tribulation, whatever you want to call it, is ALL about the wrath of God. You have defined the last seven bowls as the "wrath of God", but what about the trumpets? Rev. 6 tells us that the wrath of the Lamb is about to start. Seems to me that it starts as soon as the scroll is fully opened, i.e., the last seal is removed. Then the wrath of the Lamb starts.
Ever wonder what the half hour of silence is all about? All heaven is dumbfounded at the wrath that God is going to pour out.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/3/09|
The definition of the Tribulation, when it starts, and what it is, seems to be blurred. Let me see if I can clear up some confusion.
The Revelation is divided into three sections (Rev 1:19), what John has seen (chapter 1), the things which are (Chapters 2-3), and the things which take place after that (chapters 4-21).
Chapters 4-5 are a description is what is occuring in heaven, time is irrelevant.
Chapter 6 begins with the opening of the scroll. The seals are holding the scroll closed. Each seal is a precursor or sign of the wrath of God. I believe Jesus describes these "signs" in Matt 24, Mark 13, etc. Once the scroll is open, heaven is silent for 1/2 hour, God's judgment begins, the Tribulation period begins.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/3/09|
For some reason I thought the tribulation would be worse than things as they are now (although some parts of word even now experience remarkable suffering)
I think of the tribulation as a time when we will have a one world government...ultimately headed by the Antichrist who, shortly after his appearance will demand worship from all people.
Not even the one-world government has come into being yet, but one can easily imagine it's not far off.
---Donna66 on 8/1/09|
The Bible says that the living saved will be caught up, together with the resurrected saved, to meet Jesus in the air AT HIS SECOND COMING - not before. It also says that those not caught up AT HIS SECOND COMING - are destroyed by the brightness of His coming, and live not again until the second resurrection 1000 years later.
There is no secret rapture with living sinners remaining and given a second chance at salvation. It is just not biblical - period!
---jerry6593 on 8/1/09|
Donna, very good questions. If there are new converts in the Seven year tribulation why would they go through the wrath of God? And doesn't the Bible call believers the Church? If God took His Church at the Rapture, how could there be another Church in tribulation? Christians are the Church. There is no mention in Scripture about two different Churches.
And you quoted, how can there be new converts when it is the Holy Spirit who brings the lost to Christ. If Hiss not here how can fallen men convert without the Spirit convicting them? This was a good idea by Jesuit Ribera from the RCC when he introduced this concept because he assumed, like many do now that by doing good deeds a person can be saved. They won't need the Holy Spirit.
---MarkV. on 8/1/09|
Oh, and by the way, just before we annihilate ourselves, God will intervene with His wrath upon nonbelievers while beievers will be protected by God himself. Pray that you and yours will be protected and endure until the end. I surely won't be a pretty sight as we experience the tribulation and God's wrath.
---Steveng on 7/31/09|
People, None of you realize that God will pull the church out before the tribulation. I don't worry about it cause I'm Ready. If I'm ready before trib. and he ratures the church then I'll Know i was right. If I Go Through the trib. then raptured. Then I was wrong. the point is If We argue Then the devil has divided the church. And the bible says, A kingdom divided against itself can not stand. So lets just agree to disagree. Love one another, And Give That devil a black eye. Love to all, keep the faith in Jesus name.
---Allen on 7/31/09|
Let's me see - I've been to two seminaries, 4 Christian collages, (all of which are different in denomination, but Biblical sound,) read over 30 books concerning the Last Days, (which dealt with the Rapture) and the more I learn about the Rature, the less I know. There are learned men/women who document all three views with Scripture, most of them in the Koine Greek and they all come across, to me at least, that they know what they are presenting. All I can state at this point, is to be ready!
---wivv on 7/31/09|
BruceB: "you'll never convince them..."
Christians won't recognize they are living through the tribulation. Man will convince them, in one way or another, that the events mentioned in the bible are due to natural cycles or some other reason. The events in Matthew 24 occur whether by nature, man or God (yes, even earthquakes can be caused by man). As more men (and women) turn their backs on God, the stronger these events will become and with more frequency. The wrath is the end of the tribulation when there are only a handful of true christians. Pray that you and yours will be one of them and that God will protect you and that you can endure until the end.
We, all of humanity, is in this together.
---Steveng on 7/31/09|
"why would he make the church go through the tribulation?" ---Allen on 7/28/09
The tribulation and the wrath of God are different occurrences.
The tribulation is the work of Satan. "Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he 'persecuted' (pursued to acquire) the woman.. [and] cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the 'flood' (overwhelming deception)."
The wrath is the work of Jesus. Rev.14:9,10 "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation.
---joseph on 7/31/09|
Donna, you'll never convince them. Very few understand the difference between the great tribulation... and God's wrath.
Re 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
The wrath of God is contained within those seven vials: and those seven vials are not the great tribulation. The vials come at the end of the great tribulation, which tribulation is the wrath of Satan and falls upon all. This is the tribulation Jesus spoke of... not the wrath of God. "Christians" are not appointed unto the wrath of God.
The wrath of God is poured at Armageddon. But, to argue that point is futility.
---BruceB on 7/31/09|
So, all of you are saying that there are three raptures.
---Steveng on 7/30/09|
Mark Eaton --
I read your scriptures.
I'm not questioning that God's wrath will be poured out at some time...I'm saying it doesn't sound like the tribulation, during which BELIEVERS suffer for not accepting the mark of the beast.
---Donna66 on 7/30/09|
In the OT, the term "the Day of the LORD" nearly equates to the judgment you are questioning. It is used more than twenty times. A few examples are: Isaiah 13:6-9, Jeremiah 46:10, Lam. 2:22, Ezek. 13:5, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 2:11, Amos 5:18-20, Zeph. 1:8.
In the NT, the same phrase is used in Acts 2:20, 2 Thes. 2:2, 2 Peter 3:10.
It is also described in the Revelation 6:16-17 as the "day of their great wrath" and "the wrath of the Lamb".
Jesus even describes this time in Matt. 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will".
To connect God's wrath to judgment, read Romans 1:18-2:8.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/30/09|
It happeneds after the tribulation in Matthew 24 Read the signs before Jesus will come. Many deceivers, wars, pestilece, rumors of wars.
We are now in that time...so the rapture will be on May 21, 2011.
---ROSALIE on 7/30/09|
it really dose not matter when it will happen.why worry about when it will happen cause it dose not matter.if you belive in Gods son Jesus and what he did on the cross and live for HIM who cares.the only thing that dose matter is if we are seeking HIm and living with His power and grace.people spend way to much time thinking of this when they need to be thinking of what God wants to do in there life.we need to pray read the bible and seek Him.
---devin on 7/30/09|
I agree with anon and trish.
For what it is worth, Matt. is not referring to a rapture. If the rapture happens, as most understand it, Matt. is not seeing it. The ones taken in Matt. are the wicked, the ones left are the righteous.
Although this can be an interesting discussion, it can also end up being endless speculation.
---Rod on 7/30/09|
steveng. good point, but lets take it one step farther. are you saying you have no trails or tribulations now. I Have plenty. the reason for the dead in christ to rise is to prepare the army of all saints to come back to earth and fight the Anti christ, the devil and his angels. after the 7 year tribulation. why wouldn't the dead in christ be included in this army.The rapture and the second coming of Jesus are not the same. they happen at 2 different times. in the rapture we are meeting him in the air. at the second coming he comes with the saints to war against the enemies. including those who have recieved the mark of the beast. hope this clears up things God Bless.
---allen on 7/29/09|
Everybody thinks the tribulation is the wrath of God. I'm not sure why. Is there scripture that backs up that belief?
It looks a lot more like the rage of Satan, to me. Those that do NOT take the mark of the beast are the ones who suffer! If it was God's wrath why would that be? Why would He punish those that resist the Anti-Christ?
---Donna66 on 7/29/09|
Allen: "Before Gods wrath. why would he make the church go through the tribulation. God Bless."
He will protect his people while on earth. It would be vain for end time christians to think they are better than any other christian or godly person since the beginning who went through their own tribulations.
Let's reason this out and take this one step further by asking a question: If the purpose of the rapture was to escape the wrath, why would the dead be raised also? Would the dead feel the pain of the wrath on earth?
---Steveng on 7/29/09|
I believe the dead in Christ rose after the tribulation and those that are alive and remain shall meet the Lord when they remain no longer.
---jose on 7/29/09|
He already gave you the warning signs.
Matt 24:32-33 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near, so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door".
Do no look for any other signs.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/28/09|
I don't know for sure... nor do I believe anyone does. The Bible simply isn't that clear.
I think it will occur about half way through the tribulation. There appears to be a striking change after 3 1/2 yrs, suggested by Scripture. We won't experience the wrath of God...but aren't promised escaping the wrath of Satan!
Pre-trib believers say the holy Spirit will be taken out of the world during the tribulation...yet people will be saved during the tribulation. Salvation can't take place without the Holy Spirit.
Post-trib people (I think) believe it is up to them to prepare the church and/or the world for Christ's return. To me, this falsely elevates the ability of man and diminishes the sovereignty of God.
---Donna on 7/28/09|
I only wanted to know your thoughts. I Have a theroy. It may not be yours. but that what makes us better by looking at one anothers piont of view. never in Gods judgement did he put his chosen in harms way. noah was in the ark, lot left those cities Before Gods wrath. why would he make the church go through the tribulation. God Bless.
---Allen on 7/28/09|
Here's what the Lord told my friend: "Don't worry about when it happens, just always be ready for it."
Be prepared everyday and you won't need to worry about when it will happen.
If you're dwelling in the secret place of the Most High God and abiding under the shadow of the almighty, and in a close, intimate relationship with the Lord, don't you think he'll give you warning signs of when it will come? And even if He doesn't, use wisdom to know what Jesus said, "When you see the sun rising, you know it is daylight, etc.,"
---anon on 7/28/09|
I frankly do not care when it occurs. It matters little on how I live my life right now, and does not impact my relationship with my Abba Father. I believe that arguing over this issue is letting the devil divert us from what is important, lovingly sharing the Gospel with the lost.
---Trish9863 on 7/27/09|