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Does Predestination Teach Love

Does predestination really teach that God creates some people solely for the purpose of torturing them, without any hope of redemption? Can God be a God of love without granting free will?

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 ---jerry6593 on 8/1/09
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Alan: It comes from a simile that I posted to you a while back that said: "Reasoning with MarkV is like pushing a rope - it gets you nowhere and is very frustrating."
---jerry6593 on 8/31/09

Markv, you are saying I didn't hear that I was a sinner and needed to repent?
You have got to be kidding me!
The things of God are revealed by GOD.
They aren't revealed UNTIL you repent of your sins and ask Christ to save you. Thats very simple. You either say yes or no.
You completely IGNORE all of the Bible where God says either you repent from your wicked ways, or you will die.
You ignore what happenend in the upper room when it was asked "Did you receive the Holy Spirit since you believed?"
You ignore that we must first believe that God is real and that we ere sinners in need of him. Understanding does NOT come when you first get saved! Its a growing process and only revealed by God after you you have repented.
---miche3754 on 8/31/09

One could do a search for "Pushing rope uphill?" and get the just of the expression "pushing rope".
---Nana on 8/31/09

Miche, can you give me a passage that states what you said? here is what you said, "Markv, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is very simple.
When a sinner is listening to God's TRUTH, they are convicted of their sins. They know it, the blasphemy comes from the HS calling them but they don't answer to it. They deny it and God's truth."

I don't think you will find it. The reason is, that many hear the truth and don't understand it, so don't believe it, so are not convicted. They don't believe it or understand it because they are at enmity against God. They need the Spirit to bring them to a spiritual awakening. When God call's a person, the person has no power to refuse the calling of God. He is not God. God is God.
---MarkV. on 8/30/09

Jerry ... I've never heard that term before!
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/30/09

Alan: How's that rope pushing coming?
---jerry6593 on 8/29/09

Trey seems to know the Word. My salvation came about by God opening my heart. Like Lydia in Acts 16:14 and the conversion of Saul on the Damascus Road. I was on a desert road, in a truck and I truly felt the power of the Holy Spirit come upon me and I have never been the same since. Not that my life is perfect, but I do live my life toward Jesus Christ and I thank Him a lot that I know Him. The doctrine of predestination and election is sometimes difficult to understand, but I believe it, because the bible teaches it and that's where my gift of faith comes in.
---Tony on 8/29/09

markV If your offer of peace is genuine, will you perhaps withdraw those false statemetns about what you claimed I had said?

And will you consider answering my queston about Calvin?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/29/09

Markv, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is very simple.
When a sinner is listening to God's TRUTH, they are convicted of their sins. They know it, the blasphemy comes from the HS calling them but they don't answer to it. They deny it and God's truth.
yes God does talk to sinners. He spoke to you, you answered. you are still answering to him. You gave up your will for HIS will. very simple.
you think the way God saves sinners is all complex but it isn't. Its the growth in the HS & God's light thats sometimes hard (growing pains)). Blasphemy of the HS is by denying it, then we certainly do have a choice to either accept God's truth or deny it. To either live by it or not. His will or ours. That is why Paul said die daily to the flesh.
---miche3754 on 8/29/09

Miche, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". In the context Jesus was answering the Pharisees who had just accused Him of casting out demons by Beelzebub. Matt. 12:31, The sin Jesus was confronting was the Pharisees deliberate rejection of that which they knew to be of God (John 11:48, Acts 4:16). They could not deny the reality of what the Holy Spirit had done through Christ, so they attributed to Satan a work that they knew was of God v. 24. Mark 3:22. Someone never exposed to Christ's divine power and presence might reject Him in ignorance and be forgiven-assuming the unbelief gives way to genuine repentance. Even a Pharisee such as Saul of Tarsus could be forgiven for speaking against the Son of Man or persecuting Jesus followers
---MarkV. on 8/29/09

Miche, 2:
because his unbelief stemmed from ignorance (1 Tim. 1:13). But those who know His claims are true and reject Him anyway sin "against the Holy Spirit" because it is the Holy Spirit who testifies of Christ and makes His truth known to us ( John 15:26, 16:14,15). No forgiveness was possible for these Pharisees who witnessed His miracles firsthand, knew the Truth of His claims, and still blasphemed the Holy Spirit-because they had already rejected the fullest possible revelation.
Peace to you and Alan.
---MarkV. on 8/29/09

The only thing God ever required of us as far as salvation is concerned is just for us to say yes to him.
To accept the gift he has given. That is all.
according to Markv, God doesn't talk to sinners or call them to repentance thus offering the gift of salvation to them. Thats false doctrine. It doesn't line up with God's word.
God does talk to sinners, He does come to them he does offer salvation to them through Christ. Markv what you have to understand is that If God wants to save all he will. You are wrong to say that he won't. None of us know for sure that the person we thought was a sinner didn't confess right before he passed away. So, you can't say God won't save all of us. You don't know God's plan and should not profess to.
---miche3754 on 8/29/09

--Miche & Alan:

Brother, God's Spirit is in His Elect & no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed nor shall be separated from God's Love.

Many strive to enter in at the strait gate & shall not be able(Luke 13:23-27). These many are the workers of iniquity, Fake/Carnal Christians who for whatever worldly reason are just among & following God's Chosen but were not Called unto Christ & shewed Him openly to Hear the Word(Act 10:40-41).

Sister, Remember the 'Wheat & Tares'. How during the Harvest of God's Chosen Elect, many gathered up were unworthy : not being God's Called Elect. Those are the ones where by it appears have denied God's Calling but were really just the uncalled Tares among the Wheat.
---Shawn.M.T on 8/29/09

MarkV ... I don't get angry (OK I protest a bit when you past falsehoods about what I have said, and if you had said them in the outside world, and not in the anonimity of internet bloging, they would be actionable)

You are at it again, now ascribing motives to my asking of questions (so that all will hear how great your questions are)

I don't try to discredit you ... I ask the questions, MarkV, to get answers, but you won't give them. By your own failure to justify or withdraw the falsehoods about what I have said you show the weakness of your debating methods

Where did I say those things you said I said?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/29/09

MarkV ... Let's look at the question asked on this blog.

"Does predestination really teach that God creates some people solely for the purpose of torturing them, without any hope of redemption?"

Calvin says YES:

"God has determined in Himself what He would have become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny, but eternal life is fore-ordained (NB, not 'fore-known') for some, and eterrnal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death"

---alan8566_of_uk on 8/29/09

Alan, all you have to do to understand what it is that I am talking about when I speak of God coming and saving some not all of the lost, because we already know He does not save all.
One way is to examine your own prayers. If you had a son who was lost, what would you do? You would go to God and ask Him to come into your son's life and change him. That is because you know it takes for God to change his heart. When we pray we know the Truth. If it was up to your son to use his free will to come to Christ, what would be the point of going to God if He cannot do anything? We all understand this but yet argue against it. I see it and I believe it. I want you to believe it too. But I cannot make you except what you want so much to reject.
---MarkV. on 8/28/09

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Alan, by giving your experience about your salvation you will be able to see who really gets glory for it. I don't want to discredit you. I want you to see and understand what you are saying. Do you think you are the only one out there who believes it was you who chose Christ and not God who chose you? There is millions like you. They all believe what you do. So it is not to discredit you. Every time I answer you, you say I want to discredit you, but it is you who wants to discredit me, because even if you don't like my answers you keep asking so that all will hear how great your questions are, then when I answer you get angry again and again like always. But that is ok Alan, that is who you are. I understand that already.
---MarkV. on 8/28/09

MarkV ... You do like to discredit those who disagree. don't you? You say "you finally put down a passage" to give others the impression that I have bot done so before.

"He does not say either "all sinners to repentance" Perhaps Luke does say this ... they could ALL be called ... it is only Calvin's theology that denies that they can elect to say NO.

What on earth allows you to suggest that I am taking the glory for being saved ... another attempt to discredit me?

Why won't yuo comment on the Calvin the quote I gave?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/28/09


First, I really enjoyed your posts! they are jsut wonderful and very truthful.
I actually believe they way you have put it.
That is how I was taught. The problem is not me understanding, my problem is with Markv saying that God doesn't talk to sinners. YES, he does! That is how we get saved.
God bless you brother!
Shawn mt, brother I understand what you are talking about and I agree with the way you are putting it. I disagree with how Markv has explained it.
He forgets that blasphemy of the HS is God calling a sinner but the sinner denying the calling.
---miche3754 on 8/28/09

To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

God's Love is not merited by what mankind wishes to be granted!! The Predestination of God's only begotten Son into the world to be the propitiation for our sins st we might Live through Christ is the manifested merit of God's Love toward us, and Christ shall Lose Nothing given unto Him but should raise it up again at the Last Day.

Whom God did Predestinate, He also Called, Justified & Glorified. Neither tribulation or persecution of things present nor to come, shall be able to separate us from God's Love in Christ. So, Who shall separate God's Elect from the Love of Christ who is at the Right Hand of God making intercession for the short comings of our flesh?? Rom.8:30-39
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/28/09

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Alan, you finally put down a passage and now that you did lets look at what you are suggesting,
You say that Luke 5:32, "MarkV You quoted Luke correctly. But you read it but don't understand it. He does not say :
Luke 5:32, "I came not to call the righteous, but just a few selected sinners to repentance"
He does not say either "all sinners to repentance" since not all are saved. So the sinner's He calls, they will repent. And we know not all will repent since God grants those He call's repentance.
Luke 19:10 He meant a select few since not all are saved. That is pretty simple English.
You did not answer my question Alan, How did you come to Christ? I want to hear who gets the glory.
---MarkV. on 8/28/09

God would have to talk to sinners(unbelievers) so sinners could believe in their creator. I was a sinner and God talked to me. How else could I know truth to believe in?
---calhoon on 8/28/09

Miche, when God personally calls someone, He is not asking, He is calling, and they will come. Just as Lazarus woke from his death, all that God call's, who are spiritually dead, awake to the calling of God. They will hear and see, and will respond to the calling of God to repentance. They will not refuse and go back to been spiritually dead again. It is one spiritual awaking, not two or three. Man's ruin lies mainly in his own perverse will. He cannot come because he will not. Help enough is provided if he were only willing to accept it. Paul tells us, "The carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. So they that are in the flesh cannot please God" Rom. 8:7.
---MarkV. on 8/28/09

MarkV You quoted Luke correctly. But you read it but don't understand it. He does not say :
Luke 5:32, "I came not to call the righteous, but just a few selected sinners to repentance"
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save a selected few of that which was lost"

But that is what Calvin implies when he says:

"God has determined in Himself what He would have become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny, but eternal life is fore-ordained (NB, not 'fore-known') for some, and eterrnal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death"
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/28/09

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--Miche:** If God "just" reveals these things out of thin air like you say, then it is a false God *** --Miche8/27/09

That's not a Righteous Judgment Miche, because when God's Word is revealed to us, it can at first JUST seem to appear out of the clear blue sky.

When a Gentile, which has not the law, does by nature(not man) the things contained in the law, he's a law unto himself. Doing & Hearing the works of the Righteousness of the Law written in his Heart by God's Spirit : as if just out of thin air.

God shall judge the secrets of man's Heart according to the Gospel of Christ, and it shall not be the 'Hearers' of the law that are Justified before God, but the convicted of Heart which 'Do' the Law in Christ.
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/28/09

Miche, When God wants to bring someone who is lost to repentance, the Holy Spirit comes to that individual, brings him alive to Christ, no longer separated from God, the Spirit convicts the unbeliever of his sin against a holy God and the person repents. Without that conviction from the Spirit the unbeliever will never repent. That is why the Bible says, that repentance has to be granted by the Father.
When a person is brought alive to Christ, he can now confess his sins, and by the gift of faith, he dedicates his life to Christ, by believing in his works on the Cross and his resurrection. It's all the work of God. Read the New Covenant promise.
---MarkV. on 8/27/09

Dear Miche3754,

I enjoyed reading what you wrote. I believe you have a wonderful heart for God.

1. How was I saved?
First in covenant before the foundation of the world: Eph 1:4
Second, on the cross at calvary: 1 Peter 1:18-19.
C. Third when the Holy Ghost made me alive and washed me in the blood of Christ: Titus 3:5-7

2. I believe the real question you are asking is did I cry out to God when I felt the burden of sin? The answer is "yes". And the reason I felt to be a sinner is that the Holy Spirit made me alive and showed me that I was in need of a Saviour. When I was dead in sin I had no desire to follow Christ.
1 Cor 2:14.
---trey on 8/27/09

Dear Miche3754, (continued)

3. Did you say, "God I need you?" Yes, because I had been made alive, I felt to be adopted. I felt the relationship of God as my Heavenly Father. Rom 8:15. Until the Spirit of God works on us we have no desire to follow him.

4. Miche3754, I too believe in free will, but not the way you do. When it comes to our eternal salvation I believe we follow Christ because he works a work on us. In John 6:37 Christ states that ALL that the Father giveth him shall come to him.

Do we have free will to sin? Yes! Do we have free will to not act as Christians? Yes! Do we have free will over our eternal salvation? No! Rom 11:26 (For those who read this, Israel is Rom 9:6, & Rom 2:29).
---trey on 8/27/09

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Miche, All those who don't believe that it was God who came into their lives and saved them, will take credit for their salvation and pad each other in the bad for been smarter then others who couldn't. Lets look at the two passages that Jerry gave,
Luke 5:32, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." did He say, man came to Christ to repent? No, it say, God came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance"
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" He did not say man came seeking Christ to be save, but that the Son of Man came to seek and save that which was lost" (man). You read it but don't understand it.
---MarkV. on 8/27/09

Jerry and Nana...
That is a big AMEN!!!!! to both your posts.

Markv, how do you reconcile the scripture they (Nana and Jerry) have given to what you are saying?

These scripture clearly state that God DOES talk to sinners and calls them to repentance.
Jesus said "Repent! for the ingdom of God is at hand!" Isn't this the first step to being saved by God?
That is what the Bible says.
Why do you deny that?
Why do you deny that faith comes from hearing the Word of God?
---miche3754 on 8/27/09

Answer me this Markv, when and how did God reveal the spiritual things of him to you?
Was it before or after the Holy Spirit came to you?
If it was before, you are way false.
If it was after, then good.
We receive the condemnation from hearing the TRUTH of Gods word. How do you we get that Markv?
By preachers, teachers, prophets, evangelists...
If God "just" reveals these things out of thin air like you say, then it is a false God. We only gain knowledge of God through the Holy Spirit and we only receive the HS when we repent! We repent when we hear the words of God and believe! You can't do this backwards!
---miche3754 on 8/27/09

Philippians 2:5: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:". Paul was not casting a spell, rather admonishing and describing what such a mind is made of in the rest of this same chapter.

John 13:14: "If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 'Ought to', an admonition, not an imposition.

1 John 2:6: "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
Once again, 'ought himself' is an admonition, not an imposition.

Matthew 3:8: "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"

2 Timothy 2:21: "If a man therefore purge himself from these, ..."
---Nana on 8/27/09

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MarkV: "How can a lost person understand the spiritual things of God?"

Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Apparently, God speaks loud enough for the lost to hear. It is the self-righteous, know-it-all, "I'm saved and you're not" types that have difficulty hearing Him.
---jerry6593 on 8/27/09

Miche, you say, "didn't you hear the words of condemnation and you say I'm sorry Lord forgive me?"
Other people heard the words too why didn't they ask the Lord to forgive them? Answer: they had no faith. Why didn't they have faith? Because God had not given them faith to believe.
You said, didn't you say, God I need You" the reason he said it is because God had first drawn him to Himself and gave him to Christ. If God had not drawn him, he would not have come to Christ to tell Him he needed Him.
You said, "Must understand that the only way the potter will make U a new vessel is if YOU get on the wheel & give it to him."
How can a lost person understand the spiritual things of God?
---MarkV. on 8/26/09

MarkV ... Whatever I say, you twist its meaning, even turn it 180 degrees.

Like, when I said "God is Sovereign", you stated I had denied God's Sovereignty.

So there is no point in answering your questions ... but once again, I challenge you to tell us all when it was that I said those twelve things.

(The same applies to things you have said about others here)

Who gives you the authority to bear false witness? Surely not Calvin!

But incidently, how do you interpret those words of Calvin?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/26/09

Alan, you don't say it, but you imply that with your answers. Though I am sure in your heart you know God was the One who came into your life and saved you.
A lost person cannot change his heart towards Christ.
He is spiritually dead to the things of God, which means he is separated from God.
His will is in bondage to sin, and love's his rebellion towards God.
He is heading to hell because he has sinned against God for he was born under the curse of Adam.
He is without faith in God. He cannot originate faith for Christ on his own.
And because his heart is corrupt, he rebell's against God by his own will and needs to repent. Repentance also comes from God.
---MarkV. on 8/26/09

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Alan, you get so worked up when I say it is God who not only draws unbelievers to Himself and that He, not man, changes the hearts of those who are lost and originates the love of Christ in their hearts, grants them faith and repentance through the Holy Spirit by convicting them in order to bring them to commit their lifes to Christ, and when I say you imply that man is in control of his own destiny by using his own free will, you say you never said that, so what are you saying then?
Why don't you enlighten me how man is save. This way I will know you are not implying what I say you are. Who chooses who in your mind? Does God have the right to choose whom He so desires to save?
---MarkV. on 8/26/09


How were U saved?
Weren't U a "broken vessel" before U said "YES" to God?
Didn't U hear God's words of condemnation & say "Im sorry lord!forgive me".
What are God's words of condemnation to sinners?
Truth, Light, Word- JESUS CHRIST!
Didn't U say "God I need you"?
If U did this, U found out that U do have freewill & decided that U didn't want it anymore. If U are saved truly, U turned in your freewill ticket to God.
Must understand that the only way the potter will make U a new vessel is if YOU get on the wheel & give it to him.
thats how God saved me & how hes still making me over. Im on the wheel & I love God so much, his will is all that matters.
---miche3754 on 8/26/09

Who is man? Well, who also is Christ? 1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." What then? While some men preach that we deserve the trash can, Christ otherwise
makes it known that we are worth saving!
Coming to Christ?
John came first calling simple men like me, "Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." A simple recipe, do not extort, share your blessings, don't abuse authority.
---Nana on 8/26/09

Free will is "Hog Wash".

Here is the God we serve:
Da4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Ro9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Ro9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Mt12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
---trey on 8/25/09

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Markv just doesn't understand that God is all love. He is our father. He has a relationship with us as a father does to his children.
I am assuming that since Markv has the view that God makes us do or not do things that he is a tyrant with his children.
I can't say the same for me. I let my children have some choice as they grow. They also suffer the consequences when they choose wrong. That is what God does with us.
He sets before us choices and says "choose".
BUT when we choose wrong, God allows us to suffer the consequences.
When they choose right, they get blessings. That is what God does with us. All we tell people is to accept the perfect love God is trying to give.
---miche3754 on 8/25/09

Duane ... You may call the blog insane ... but Calvin, on whose teachings MarkV's ideas about Predestination rest, said:

"God has determined in Himself what He would have become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny, but eternal life is fore-ordained (NB, not 'fore-known') for some, and eterrnal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death"
---alan8566_of_UK on 8/25/09

God can NOT torture anyone or anything. God is perfect love.
Some of these blogs are insane. We should be proclaiming the message of reconciliation through Christ. Our sins not counted against us.
---duane on 8/25/09

When you understand that Christ said its finished he meant it, you will understand that Christ offers salvation to any who accept it. His hand is always stretched out to us. All we need to do is accept his offer. Its always there. We know this because God's word says he's always with us even though we don't know it. By HIS WORD is how our eyes and ears are opened.
No one is implying that we save ourselves.
All we did was accept the gift that God gave over 2000 years ago for all mankind.
You don't understand that its a gift for all. The only thing God asks is for us to accept it. Just because some are idiots and refuse it, isnt our fault. We are still responsible for spreading the Gospel until it reaches all.
---miche3754 on 8/25/09

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MarkV ... That's another five misrepresentations!!

"you take credit for your salvation" ... Your words Mark, not mine, for I say that Jesus saved me on the Cross.

"He is now obligated to give you something you didn't deserve in the first place" ... Come on Mark, you know I did not say that

"You were smarter then the other's" ... I did not say that.

"And lets suppose you are right and that God cannot interfere with man's free will" ... I did not say that ... I say he does not.

"You say you have the right to say yes or no to God" ... No I don't, I say He allows me.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/25/09

Alan, first, God does not create people for the purpose of torture.
Why do I say what I say?
When you say that by your own free will, not God's will," you come to Christ, you are implying that the cause of your salvation was you, your works or actions. By implying that it was by your cause, not God's, you take credit for your salvation. And if you can come to Christ on your own free will, then you imply you come out of bondage because of your actions.
You continue to say, you do not say that, but you imply that. You, the cause of your salvation. So since you came to Him, He is now obligated to give you something you didn't deserve in the first place. That view makes man, not God the determinator of his own life.
---MarkV. on 8/25/09

Alan 2 continue:
by implying that man can originate faith in his corrupted heart to come to Christ, you are suggesting also that others cannot. So that you have something the other does not have. You were smarter then the other's, had a better education then the other's, were lucky to be at a place that others could not be when you came to Christ.
And lets suppose you are right and that God cannot interfere with man's free will, so that you would now have someone in hell saying, God, why did you not take away my free will so that I could be saved too" Free will would do nothing for the lost in hell. Another thing Alan, you want something that you do not deserve when you say you have the right to say yes or no to God.
---MarkV. on 8/25/09

Markv, please STOP falsely accusing others of removing or taking away God's sovereignty over us.
God has ALL of it over ALL of us. Sinner and Saint.
God provides the choices(proving he is the boss) but he doesn't make the choice for us.
God knows the outcome of the choices we make(again, proving he is the boss).
BUT God didn't make man to be robots. Does God make us love him? NO. We love him because he loved us first.
You deny ALL scripture that says God gives us a choice.(See 3/4 of te Bible) Our choice is to believe or not to believe. Have faith or not to have faith. Love or not to love.
By the way, please stop calling me and others sinners. We are saints since we are in Christ.
---miche3754 on 8/25/09

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Predestination does not teach love. Of course God is love. What predestination teaches is the sovereignty of God. If God is not sovereign then he is not God!!!!
---mima on 8/25/09

You are half way there. God predestinated those who accept Christ and obey HIM to be saved.
Thats a choice.
God gave and says choose. If we didnt have a choice, God wouldnt have set one. Its those who choose to do the will of God & accept Christ that are saved.

Markv, please don't address me until you give scripture to back up what You say. You keep saying you have but I haven't seen it.

If mankind chooses NOT to turn to God, if they choose NOT to obey the Holy Spirit when it draws, they send themselves to hell, BUT God isn't the one who sends them. God loves ALL his creation even the ones who are disobedient. God wouldnt have said "who soever will let him come" if he didn't mean it.
---miche3754 on 8/25/09

Mark, you're at it again!

"you don't want to believe that God is Sovereign and can do what He so desires with His creation"
"you and others what to set the standard by which God can operate and only because you think man deserves that right"
"you want to take credit for that work yourself"
"Otherwise you would not be complaining everyday about your rights as a person"
"One that wants credit for what God has done"

Those are all untrue distortions of our beliefs & words

"You, as a sinner have no rights before God" We have always said this for ourselves

"It comes from a self-righteous attitude" None havs claimed to be righteous.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/25/09

God doesn't create some for the purpose of torture. God created mankind. He then predestinated the objects of his love (his children) to be conformed to the image of his son. (Rom 8:29) He predestinated their adoption. (Eph 1:5) He predestinated them to be called by his irresistable grace. He predestinated them to be justified by the blood of Christ (Rom 8:30). He did all these things according to his will, not our will (Eph 1:11).

The others he did not love, nor send his Son to die for. Did he do them an injustice? No, he simply left them in the as they are.

The real question is not: "Why did God not love the wicked?"

The real question is: "Why did God love any of us?"
---trey on 8/24/09

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1Peter 2:8 says people stumble over the stone which represents Christ, disobedient to the Word, to which they were appointed. But the true church is a chosen people, generation, etc. called out of darkness (verse 9) into the light of Christ. We are (the church) like Isaac children of promise. Galatians 4:28 The promise of God to redeem His people throughout the whole world.
---Tony on 8/24/09

Miche, again I give you scripture and you keep asking for it. It is that you don't want to believe that God is Sovereign and can do what He so desires with His creation. But you and others what to set the standard by which God can operate and only because you think man deserves that right. Otherwise you would not be complaining everyday about your rights as a person. You, as a sinner have no rights before God. God had mercy on you and if He hadn't taken and drawn you to him you would still be lost. But you don't see this great work of God in you, because you want to take credit for that work yourself. It comes from a self-righteous attituded. One that wants credit for what God has done. What you should be doing is thanking God for saving you.
---MarkV. on 8/24/09

Mark ... Yu say of those who beleive in free-will:

they say salvation has become a duty and obligation now for God
they take credit for coming out of bondage,
they take credit for thier salvation
they deny God is sovereign

But we don't say those things. Time and time again I have asked you to quote any of us saying these things, and you can't.

Mark, I admire you for your views on many issues, and your scholarship on this one, but you spoil it by making up these things about those whose perception is different and about what we say and beleive
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/24/09

Poeple have the whole idea of Predstination wrong anyway. The Clavin intrpetation of that is flase. Predestination is not to determine rather an individual is going to hell or not. The predstined are the chosen of God to bring back a people from apostate. They are the prophets who are predstined for Gods plan ot a people in this life time. The prdestined are the ordained or anointed of God.Jeremiah1:5
Before I fromed oyu in the womb I knew you, before you were born I sanctified you, I ordained oyu a prophet to the nations. The predestined are for the service to the naiton. Thats the real pupose of predetination.
---Theresa_Lockwood on 8/24/09

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Anon ... Jerry is not saying it!

Read his question ... he is challenging that belief.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/24/09

I said nothing about being any kind of standard. I just know what the Bible says.
And as usual, you refuse again to answer my question (don't say you have because have never done it)
If you can't give scripture to back up what you say, stop saying it. I and several others are sick and tired of you stating that God does this when he doesn't. Salvation is for whom ever asks for salvation. God does NOT say no to anyone who asks for it. You say he does.
If God picked and chose who was destined for salvation,
---miche3754 on 8/24/09

Miche, God is not a monster, He is God. Hear what God thinks is right.
"For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Savior Jesus Christ" Jude 4. This men were marked from long ago unto condemnation.
Second, Paul writing to the saints at Thessalonica declared, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Thess. 5:9. Surely, to an impartial mind this statement is quite pointless if God has not "appointed" any to wrath, because it clearly implies that there are some who He has apppointed to wrath.
---MarkV. on 8/24/09

Miche 2 continue:
You and Rhonda seem to think you are the standard by which God has to operate in order for Him to be God. Again I say God.
"A stone of stumbling, and a Rock or offence, even to them who stumble at the Word, being disobedient, where unto also they were appointed" 1 Peter 2:8). and were it not that the minds of so many professing Christians are so blinded by prejudice, they could not fail to clearly see this.
"And all that dwell on the earth shall worhip him (the antichrist), everyone whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb that hath been slain" Rev. 13:8
---MarkV. on 8/24/09

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God is NOT a monster.
God is of Love. He would not and has never created any man destined for hell.
God provides the choice and then allows us to make it.
It is in and through Christ we are predestined. We must be in Christ!
And God giving us the choice does not take away God's sovereign power. It magnifies how much he loves us and wants us to love him. Love that is forced is not love. And God doesn't force anything. He doesn't have to.
Not to mention God did not make us as robots. A good example is Parent to child relationships. That is how God is to us. He is our parent and we are his chidren.
---miche3754 on 8/20/09

the doctrine of predestination is from mans RELIGIOUS christianity and ITS traditions Mark 7:6-7

it is NOT found in scripture just another LIE that loosely uses a couple of passages in scripture by distorting them to FIT their idea of a very cruel sadistic monster "god"

predestination doctrine of man cannot be tied back to scripture and this LIE dismisses and ignores BASIC scripture about foreknow, call, justify, glorify which all TIE into Truth of predestination from Gods Holy Word

the predestination lie from RELIGION is not able to tie back to these 4 BASIC principals and it DENIES the most BASIC of all scripture free moral agency
---Rhonda on 8/20/09

predestination teaches that God is sovereign and we are not, He has special love for His people (the church). Adam fell and we are dead in Adam, we need new life in Christ by being born again of the Holy Spirit. He can be and is a God of love, but also a God of Holy wrath and righteous judgement.
---Tony on 8/18/09

Bill-bela, how right you are. What happened, in their view salvation has become a duty and obligation now for God. And, it is not the lost who come out with this nonesense that God has to give grace and if He acts in any other way, He is not loving, it is those who claim to be save that complain. They soften salvation and hell, they say, there is no pain, no punishment. The one's separated from God would love nothing more then to continue separated from God. Their will's are in bondage to sin, and only God can take them out of their bondage. Yet, they take credit coming out of bondage, giving themselves a new heart, and because they had the ability to believe while others didn't, they have to been given salvation, or else God is not Love.
---MarkV. on 8/18/09

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Was Jesus predestined? Matt 1:21, Psa 22, Isa 53
Did Jesus have free-will? Luke 22:42, Matt 11:27
Did God love Jesus? John 10:17
Was Jesus tortured beyond hope? Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34
Let us all strive to be like our Lord and Master, to know the will of God in our lives and to be willing to accept it as truth to the brink of hope and faith.
---MIchael on 8/17/09

Yes, Mary, God gives us love. No one else can, except if He makes us able to give love. It is interesting that ones are worshiping and glorifying their own free wills as being what has gotten them with Jesus, like it depended on them and not God who alone is love and good. "For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. For the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." (Romans 8:6-7) In our carnal mindedness we *can* not be "subject to God". He has to change us to being obedient in the Holy Spirit, so we obey. Or else, why don't we freely choose to always obey God in His peace? Colossians 3:15
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/6/09

Jerry, you are trying to kindle up some controversy again among brothers and sisters.
But let me explain something to you, after Adam's curse all people sinned aganist God, and all were going to hell. Nothing whatsoever they could do was going to stop that. You were born spiritually dead, meaning separated from God. And along comes Almighty God, and shows His love for you, He calls you from that dead state you were in just like Jesus called Lazurus, and gives you spiritual life, gives you faith, convicts your heart and you repent, and confess Christ as your Savior, endwell's you with the Holy Spirit, seals you until the day of redemption, now, is that not love? You deserved hell, was that love not good enough for you?
---MarkV. on 8/5/09

"Can God be a God of love without granting free will?" If you love your children, are you going to tell them, "You have a free will. Do what you choose"?

"He who spares his rod hates his son,
.But he who loves him disciplines him promptly." (Proverbs 13 24)

"'For whom the LORD loves he chastens,
.And scourges every son whom He receives.'" (Hebrews 12:6)

"God resists the proud" (in James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5) > so God is *not* respecting our wills while we act in pride, but He is resisting us . . . for our own good, so we don't keep going where Satan is taking us. So, His resistance against our wills is loving and caring.
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/5/09

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"But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (1 Timothy 5:6) So - - - she's "dead" while she is walking and talking > sounds to me like Paul is saying she's a robot or a zombie - - - while living for pleasure. So it is Satan and sin witch make someone a zombie-robot > God does not make anyone this way. But Romans 6:17 says we "were slaves of sin" > if we were
slaves in sin, we were *not* free. Plus, "Sin is separation from God," ones say. In sin, our wills were separate from God, therefore *not* free.

If we all are "equal", why does one sinful person change to choose Jesus, while someone else of the same sinful nature does *not* change?
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/4/09

If Predestination is true. Then if GOD is a god of love then Universalism will be true for GOD will force all men to be saved. He will make everyone good little robots for doing good since the will of GOD is for us to do right. Without free will we cannot choose to sin. For sin is againt the will of GOD.
---Samuel on 8/3/09

jerry, where is that in scripture? There is no place in scripture that supports what you are saying and if you believe this nonsense, you are not saved.

God torturing people? How in the world can you believe this? God is Love. God is Peace, God is Joy, God is Long-suffering. The Lord is Merciful- his mercies are NEW every morning.

God is a God of love and He does grant FREE WILL. Everyone has a free will. Where are you getting this nonsense theology? Please repent if you believe this. We don't want to see you going to hell because you believe God tortures people, etc.,
---anon on 8/3/09

There are so many wrong opinion & much confusion about predestination. Yet, the answer found in the Bible is very clear.

First, God loves everyone (John 3:16-21). God sends no one to hell. He doesn't choose some & reject others. People who reject God "freely" chooses to go to hell.

God is Omniscient (All Knowing). The Bible says God knows who will accept & who will reject Him. Yet, salvation is available to anyone who chooses to believe on Jesus. That's what predestination is all about. (Ro. 8:28-31)

God calls the world to redemption by His prophets, written word & Church. But, not everyone will of a free-will choose to accept His call of salvation. It's that simple!
---Leon on 8/3/09

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That is only a half truth. Care to fully declare what Scripture says and why?
---Nana on 8/2/09

Part of our destiny as Christians is that God's word will accomplish what God pleases > Isaiah 55:11 >

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth,
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"

This is a guarantee. For Christians, human will shall be cancelled out and replaced with how God's love will have us living His own love's meaning of His word. So, love certainly is included in our destiny.
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/2/09

you do know that scripture says that God will cause a great deception in the minds of men in the last days ,so that they would not repent,and turn to him?seems like an interuption of free will.But as far as predestination is concerned,only God knows who will and who wont.
---tom2 on 8/1/09

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