Its not everyone who can believe in the words of truth. And its not everyone who will let God be God, with no judgments, giving him Absolute Authority, over all and any.
And its not just because you read the bible, youll understand or even believe this!
I believe, its more the giving up of yourself. Maybe this is why he said, sell all that you have, pick up the cross.
You know whats sad, but funny. When one said, I am the lease of all the apostles!
I know! I understand this!
So, why dost thou judge thy brother?
Why dost thou set at nought thy brother?
The lord say, if any two of you!
I am one who believes your understanding!
---TheSeg on 8/15/09|
(IF) the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead DWELL IN YOU....
Then..Let him TEACH you.(1Cor2)
NOW we see limited.1Cor 13:12(all)
FOR NOW WE SEE THROUGH A GLASS,DARKLY,but THEN face to face:NOW I know in part,but THEN...
(do things in LOVE,ALLOW your FRUIT TO GROW).
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:for they are foolishness unto him,neither can he know,because they are spiritually discerned.
IF therefore any consolation IN CHRIST...
IF any comfort of love...
IF any FELLOWSHIP of the Spirit...
IF any bowels/ mercies....
be likeminded...same love...ONE accord...ONE mind...
*Give the devil NO POSITION.*
---char on 8/15/09|
Athiest, how can I explain to you the things of God if you are an athiest? Really, I don't want to sound mean, but you give every reason for us to know you don't believe anything of God, so how can I explain spiritual matters to you? Scripture is clear that the natural man, which is you, cannot understand spiritual matters. God said it, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, (and listen to this) nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" It didn't say, you will refuse to believe them, but that you cannot. I didn't say it God did, but you don't even believe that so really talking to you about God is useless.
---MarkV. on 8/15/09|
I just don't understand. Perhaps you can explain. You say to Alan:"...God took you out of the gutter, the path to hell. He gave you life when you deserved death. That not good enough."
This seems to empitomize not only your certainty that you've got it right, but your disdain for others who believe in a 'god' that behaves differently than you believe 'he' does.
Do you all each believe in a different 'god'?
Is your 'god' going to punish people like Alan, Jerry, and Earl because they don't believe as you?
Why doesn't 'god' let you all into 'his' thinking so all believers at least,---"are on the same page"?
---atheist on 8/15/09|
predestination is simply MANS RELIGION - blind ignorance ...this lie creates a sadistic divine being who MOCKS his own creation by determining in advance who he 'saves' making ALL humans nothing more than playthings his puppets for amusement ...predestination lie MOCKS The Father in Heaven DISMISSING (Eze 37) Truth of a TIME (not now) when ALL will be saved by a LOVING MERCIFUL DIVINE Being who is The Father in Heaven ...to fully be held prisoner by this lie one must also understand that BASIC scripture about foreknow, call, justify, glorify has been deliberately DISMISSED and IGNORED ...Truth of predestination ties into these 4 BASIC principals which the LIE cannot ...predestination lie opens door to accept more lies like a place called hell
---Rhonda on 8/15/09|
MarkV "You will believe what you want to believe" You sound just like someone else!!
Now, you say I have never given scripture saying God gives FreeWill. Nor Mark, have you given scripture to say He does not. You have interpreted certain scriptures, without regard to the whole context, to show that you are specially chosen, one of the elect, and that others are excluded by God (for that is what your theology teaches)
If you read the whole of the Gospels, you will find that Jesus is saying "Come" to everyone.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/15/09|
Act 10:34 Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is .... not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.
You hang your belief system on the TRANSLATION of a single word - "predestination." If you would momentarily remove the blinders from your eyes, you would notice that the collective intent of the Bible better suits the word "foreordained." God "intended," from the foundation of the world, that we all have eternal life with Him. The fact that God gave us FREE WILL = FREEDOM OF CHOICE, and some of us CHOOSE to be lost by our disobedience, is not God's fault, as you imply.
---jerry6593 on 8/15/09|
Earl, The GOD of the Bible, Whom you say that you believe, says in His Word "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." He means that we Christians are not to repay evil to those who wrong us, because GOD will repay them that which they deserve, should they die in their sin, etc. GOD is a GOD of Vengeance, it's right there in the Bible! Have you read John 3:36? Read it! Yes. GOD is indeed a God of Love, but, in that Love there is WRATH. Why? Because the sins of man, and of the evil fallen angels destroy His beautiful Creation. Also, sin is simply rebellion against the Creator Who has every right to set the rules of living for His Creation of mankind. For us to sin rebels against GOD's rightful Authority.
---Gordon on 8/15/09|
Mark ... you ask me "Did God make you sin?"
I answer that your theology says "Yes", because your definition of Sovereignty says that God decided EVERYTHING.
"Did He cause you to do what you were doing?" Yes, according to your theology.
"Everything you did you did because you loved doing it" Yes & that's how God made us.
So I had no choice but to sin, & I and everyone else would love sinning, because God is Sovereign and decides everything.
Your Predestination says He decided He would not rescue the majority, (who behave as He ordered)
Is it just to punish them for behaving as ordered ... for obeying His instructions?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/15/09|
Earl, The Bible says that sin will not go unpunished. Sin MUST be punished. REAL Love of GOD does not let the ones He loves continue on in their self-destuctive ways, and in ways that harm others, without offering them the better Way, and, if they refuse that Way, the Warning that they will ultimately destroy their own souls (in Hell). As parents, we punish a child for wrong doing IN HOPES THAT they will not do the wrong again, and will learn to do the right thing so that they will grow up to be mature, responsible and loving adults. GOD is the same. If a person REFUSES TO REPENT of their sins and dies in their sins, they will have to spend their Eternity "paying" for their sins. As they refused GOD's Payment through His Son YAHUSHUA.
---Gordon on 8/15/09|
Earl, Does your Bible include the two following Verses..? John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son (YAHUSHUA/JESUS) hath Everlasting Life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see Life (in Heaven): but, the WRATH of GOD abideth on Him." That means the person will only know the abiding Wrath of GOD, His ANGER. That isn't "the God of love" that you know? But, John 3:36 is in His Written Word, the Bible. Go to Nahum 1:2 "GOD is Jealous, and the LORD revengeth, the LORD revengeth, and is FURIOUS, the LORD will take VENGEANCE on His adversaries, and He reserveth WRATH for His enemies." And, anyone, be they man or devil, is GOD's enemies if they choose to remain in their sin and rebelliion against GOD.
---Gordon on 8/15/09|
GOD says in His Holy Written Word, the Bible, in John 3:16 "For GOD so loved the World (everybody), that He gave His only Begotten Son (YAHUSHUA/JESUS), that whosoever (anybody who wants to) believeth in Him should not perish (end up in Hell and the Lake of Fire), but have Everlasting Life (living forever in Heaven with GOD and His Goodness and Blessing)." Mankind has a choice to make. GOD presents before mankind Life and Death, and He bids us, each one of us, to choose Life. To turn away from continuing on the wide road of sin and selfishness that leads to Destruction, the Lake of Fire, and to turn to Him and live His Holy Ways that lead to Life Everlasting in His Holy loving Presence in Heaven.
---Gordon on 8/15/09|
MarkV As so often you miss the point of what I am saying!
My point was that the use of the words "just punishment" does not fit in with human understanding of those words, at least when used in the context of Predestination as described by you, whereby God decides what everybody does.
So God decides a person will sin, and does not rescue him from that. How can it be "just" in the usual meaning of the word, to God to punish someone for behaving as He made them behave?
Maybe He does ... but it is not "just" by any dictionary definition
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/15/09|
MarkV .. More misrepresentations!!!
"you don't agree with me on God's soverign right to rule as He pleases" Untrue I've agreed many times. But you say Sovereign right means He can't allow freewill, while I say that as Sovereign, He has the right to allow freewill.
"you want to take credit for your salvation" Untrue Please don't accuse me of blasphemy. I don't claim to have died on the Cross
"You are not happy enough that God took you out of the gutter, the path to hell" ... What makes you think that? The fact that I was glad to say "Yes, please, Jesus, & thank you"?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/15/09|
Alan ,well spoken words.
To add,How could God ever deprive us of will when will is the greatest characteristic of our personality for man to exercise.
---earl on 8/14/09|
Alan 3: you speak against the word of God because you don't believe in the word of God, you said, "'Cos you insist in Predestination, that we are inevitably sinful, and it is God who selects those whom He will save from damnation."
I do not insist on anything, it is what God said, " Just as He chose us in Him before the foundations of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having Predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, (and here is why Alan) According to the good pleasure of His will." Can you hear? was it man's will, or God's? You will believe what you want to believe.
---MarkV. on 8/14/09|
Alan, so now you are arguing about hell. You started by arguing about Genesis, then you moved to arguing about what the Bible really says about God, in fact many times you said if He doesn't give free will He is a monster, and now you have moved to arguing about the punishment in Hell. I understand you don't agree with me on God's soverign right to rule as He pleases, that has been established by you to me already, but that is not good enough. You want to make a point to everyone who reads here about how you feel, and in all your arguments not once have you been able to provide one Scripture or passage or passages that say's that God gave free will to anyone. And you never will because there is no such passages.
---MarkV. on 8/14/09|
Alan 2: In fact you are not happy enough that God took you out of the gutter, the path to hell. He gave you life when you deserved death. That not good enough. You were rebelling against a Holy God and never gave Him credit for anything when you were lost and now you want to take credit for your salvation.
Did God make you sin? Did He cause you to do what you were doing? Everything you did you did because you loved doing it. Until one day, the Holy Spirit led you to a place where Billy Graham was going to be with the Word of God, and God gave you faith to believe in the Gospel, and you confessed Christ as your Savior. Without that faith, you would have rejected Him. So go on and take credit if you like.
---MarkV. on 8/14/09|
Gordon,I am familiar with your/that philosophy and is one that is to me a primitive one that counters the nature of God insisting that God must resort to paybacks and torture to appease his personal wrath.God is not a very comforting God to me if knowing paybacks and torture is within his nature.Is it not evil in heart to do paybacks upon one another?
---earl on 8/14/09|
JESUS said the just punishment for sin is death.
But you say the wicked have eternal life in hell.
Where are the wicked promised eternal life?
Since JESUS says the wages of sin is death why do you say it is not death?
If the wicked are already in hell why are they going to be resurrected judged and put back in the same place they are already? What will happen to the bodies they recieve at their resurrection?
---Samuel on 8/14/09|
Atheist ... I bet Gordon enjoyed writing that!
MarkV ... you say "His just punishment"
Your use of the word "just" can't fit in with the human understanding of the word.
'Cos you insist in Predestination, that we are inevitably sinful, and it is God who selects those whom He will save from damnation.
You say everything happens through God's Sovereignty ... so it is God who has made them sinful, and it is God who keeps sinful, aand away from Him.
That MAY be how God operates, and as Sovereign He has the right to do so ... but please don't call it "just punishment", when all they have done is behave as God has created them
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/14/09|
Gordon:"...they are covered with flames of fire, worms and maggots that bore in and out of their bodies, complete utter darkness all around (the fires don't illuminate as they do atop the Earth),..."
And exactly what is your resource for this peculiar knowledge?
Are you certain that the damned are not forced to drink sulfuric acid, and the air is not filled with mace to burn their eyes and...
What kind of monster is your 'god'? He must not be the merciful one Jerry and others here believe in, love and embrace. Are there two 'gods', yours the monster and Jerry's the forgiving?
---atheist on 8/14/09|
As MarkV says, the Damned will only see GOD's Wrath (John 3:36b). His days of Mercy for the lost cease at their Death and subsequent arrival in Hell. Along with GOD's Wrath, they are covered with flames of fire, worms and maggots that bore in and out of their bodies, complete utter darkness all around (the fires don't illuminate as they do atop the Earth), the constant annoying screams of other damned souls all around, foul and berating cursing and swearing, constant pain that engulfs the whole body, endless thirst for water or the like, a desire to sleep but no opportunity to. The devils and demons themselves, extremely, horrifyingly ugly and grotesque revile and mock the damned human souls and torture and torment the souls MERCILESSLY.
---Gordon on 8/14/09|
Earl, Though one has a body that will never cease to exist, that body will rot to its core . Just like the flesh-and-blood body rots and is eaten by maggots as it lays 6 feet under. So it is with the soulish body of the Damned in Hell. It rots and stinks. There's a constant stench in Hell that one never gets away from. I can barely take walking past a garbage dumpster behind a restaurant or grocery store. The smell is so bad there.. I cannot fathom the rot that permeates Hell, and to have to live with it constantly until it's time to be cast alive into the ever-burning Lake of Fire and Brimstone. LIQUID FIRE. Where the soulish bodies of it's inhabitants feel it all, all of the time, for Eternity. Not a happy ending.
---Gordon on 8/14/09|
Tom 2, Just think of this, one believe by many who do not believe in eternal punishment is, that they will only be separated from God for eternity. Well, that would be a comfort to all who are lost since they are separated from God anyway, and would love nothing more then to continue that way. To be separted from God is no great threat to the lost person. But their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to excercise His just punishment of the damned.
---MarkV. on 8/14/09|
Rhonda, why in your opinion is it wrong for God to inflict punishment to those who have rejected His Son and who have enjoyed their rebellion against God? Why is it wrong for the God of all things, to do as He pleases with His creation? And who are you to judge what God's conduct should be?
You see, you refuse to listen to the Words of Jesus. The very words of the Christ in whom you should believe in if you are saved. If you don't believe in the words of Christ, then there is no hope for you. There is no other way to see this.
You can change the meaning of His words, but have no right to do so. You do have a choice as others do to Judge the God of all things, but in the end He is the final Judge.
---MarkV. on 8/14/09|
who really knows what eternal separation from God is like? HELL? probably.
---tom2 on 8/13/09|
If ye wish to believe God is vengeful and pay back God then who will stop you?
However 'good reason' will eventually triumph over the olden concepts .As you already concluded that if hell is real then God gives all humans ,angels and spirits eternal life.Good or evil in us is not a deciding factor for eternal life and it is only a matter of where one will reside in eternity. To add,If hell is real,all human,angel or spirit life disposed there will recieve a new body to boot so that the elements there cannot burn up the original one.So there you have it ,all live,but where.
Is not this foolish reasoning?But,this must happen, if hell,to you, exists.
---earl on 8/13/09|
nicole, here is where in the bible it says you will be tormented:
Luke 16:23 - And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:25 - But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
---anon on 8/13/09|
Who cares if we dont believe in a tormenting hell? BUT WE HAD BETTER BELIEVE IN HIM. Its a life and death issue. Lets proclaim the good news, thats our commission in life as Christian believers.
---duane on 8/13/09|
God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment.
How ironic self professing RELIGIOUS christianity cannot see the double talk they create to serve their pagan hell fable GIVEN by rcc ....all her daughters want to distance themselves from HER YET still follow HER NOT The Father in Heaven
an unjust punishment is ETERNAL TORTUR-ING which is NOT FOUND in Gods Word
and to be CLEAR The Father in Heaven in all his infinite wisdom and MERCY gave the GIFT of ETERNAL LIFE to the righteous NOT the sinner Rom 6:23 ...Christ SAVED us from DEATH NOT 'torture'
further ...TODAY is not the ONLY time to be 'saved' as the LIES of religious christianity teach
---Rhonda on 8/13/09|
Jerry6593, All that I know about Hell and the Lake of Fire comes from the Written Word of GOD (KJV Bible), and from scholars who have studied the Bible about Hell, and then from the testimonies of people who GOD has taken to Hell and back. I have absolutely no problem believing that GOD has taken these people to Hell and back, because I KNOW that He is Almighty and very capable of doing such a thing. So few people believe that what the Scriptures say about Hell is literal, they believe it's all "symbolic", so, GOD has taken people there to experience Hell themselves and has them testify to us on Earth what they saw and experienced. The actual experience of Hell is worse and more intense than words in the Bible could ever fully relate.
---Gordon on 8/13/09|
Larry, Pt. 1, The Bible does not say that the bodies of those in Hell are not "physical", and certainly where they cannot feel and experience the intense pain from all of the various torments that exist in Hell. It is man's, the Church's misunderstanding and lack of research that causes them to believe Satan's lies of a very watered-down version of Hell that is so widespread in the Church of today. GOD warns, with grief, that "My people PERISH for a lack of Knowledge." Maybe many people don't bother to research Hell because they're afraid of what they'll find out. There are many reasons I'm sure. But, GOD wants the Church AND the lost to know what Hell and the Lake of Fire are really like. SOULS ARE AT STAKE.
---Gordon on 8/13/09|
Larry, Pt. 2, GOD does not get His kicks out of seeing the Damned in torments. He's done everything to persuade people to receive Salvation through His Son YAHUSHUA (JESUS). He has bid them to TURN FROM THEIR SIN and to turn to Him and live in His Holy Ways. But, time and again, they had refused His offer of Love. So, His Wrath is all that remains for them. The Bible WARNS "Do not fear man who can only kill the body and afterwards do no more, but, rather, fear GOD, Who can DESTROY both body and soul in Hell!" And that word "destroy" is not Annihilation. It is the soul being in a constant eternal state of no-good, worthless garbage. No, GOD does not make people as garbage. People make themselves into garbage by their sin.
---Gordon on 8/13/09|
Larry, Part 3, The souls feel everything in Hell just as we feel on Earth, only it's more INTENSE. The Lord YAHUSHUA (JESUS) warned that if any of your body parts causes you to sin, then "cut them off" for it is better to arrive in Heaven maimed, than to end up in Hell with your body whole, to endure the eternal Torments. He was not meaning it literally, it was an expression, to stress the point of how painful and horrible Hell is. That we should do everything that we possibly can to avoid ending up there. A body that feels no pain would not need such a warning as that. In Luke 16 the Rich Man was in TORMENTS. I believe that was an actual event, but, even if it WERE only a Parable, the point is clear that Hell is ongoing PAIN.
---Gordon on 8/13/09|
Stephn, compare to hell you are in heaven right now. Almost all biblical teachings about hell come from the lips of Jesus more than any other. Modern Christians push for limiting what hell will be. Lake of fire, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God, a prison, a place of torment where the worm doesn't turn or die. I myself believe this words are symbols. It is probable that the sinner in hell would prefer a literal lake of fire as his eternal abode to the reality of hell represented in the lake of fire image. Here is why, in Scripture, the function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain.
---MarkV. on 8/13/09|
Athiest and others say that God is love, yes, that is His nature. God has said, that He will bring His wrath on those who have rebelled against Him. God acts according to the law of His own character. He will not go against His own character either. God shows mercy, but He also shows justice. When God is just, He is doing what is right. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" It is impossible for God to be cruel. Cruelty involves inflicting a punishment that is more severe or harsh than the crime. God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. Hell is an eternity before the righteous, ever burning wrath of God, suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief.
---MarkV. on 8/13/09|
atheist: Gordon's concept of hell originated in the mind of Satan and not in that of God. It comes from Dante's work of fiction "The Inferno." I suppose he also believes that one must cross the River Styx to get there, and that Cerberus, the three-headed dog, guards the entrance.
My Bible tells me that our God is a God of love, and that concept to me is incompatible with endless torture of His children. I know that, as a father, I could not bear to torture even the worst of my children even for a few seconds - let alone eternity. And I know that I am less loving than God.
---jerry6593 on 8/13/09|
If you read through these blogs you'll find that the premise that I am questioning is that it is logically impossible for an 'god' so sadistic as to maintain such a place as 'hell'---of the burning and eternal kind--- and at the same time be an omnipotent and loving 'god'.
A loving 'god' would not torture bodies or 'souls' eternally. And an omimpotent 'god' would have the ability to convince everyone, by some means, that not only he existed but what he expects from everyone---making the threat of 'hell' completely unnecessary and barbaric.
So please explain---how can a loving 'god' be so sadistic as to maintain 'hell'?
---atheist on 8/12/09|
Atheist - Duh, of course hell is torture?
Nicole is correct concerning no physical body for spiritual beings in hell, but we have no other reference for pain outside the physical we experience in illness or accident. She is correct that it is pain beyond our imagination and we have Luke 16:24 to illustrate the scene for Atheist and the rest of us...
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."
Atheist, pride is not worth the trip.
---larry on 8/12/09|
I'm in Hell already.
---stephen on 8/12/09|
okay, this is just for atheist, where in the bible does it state that your body will be tortured? nowhere! you wont have a "physical" body any longer in hell, it will be your soul, it will not be pain that we experience here on earth, it will be a pain so great we cannot even express it, for it will be our soul on fire and in agony because of our separation from god. No one on earth i think can actually express what hell is going to be like, because no one who is alive has been there.
---nicole on 8/12/09|
Gordon: I hear & appreciate your passion on the subject. I didn't say the damned weren't able to vocally express themselves. I just think it would be extremely difficult for a person to focus & logically articulate themself while on fire. Of course, there are some bloggers who think Jesus made up the parable just to make a point. That's illogical! I believe they're hoping the parable isn't true because...
Like you, I have a fertile imagination & can only imagine what hell is like besides being 100% HELL!!! However, it's wise to forego imagination & only go with what the Bible (not Dante or anyone else) says about Hell.
Again, I believe some bloggers confuse Hell with the Lake of Fire.
---Leon on 8/12/09|
Your description of "Hell" is quite colorful, detailed and gruesome. And I must say, that any 'god' that was omnipotent certainly wouldn't allow such a place to exist if he was a 'loving and forgiving god'---that is, the 'god' I think Jerry and many others believe in.
---And not Jerry's 'hell' where just cease to exist or have consciousness after they die.
So can you provide 'Biblical' proof that your 'Hell' is the right 'hell'? Not necessarily proof to me, but at least a believer like Jerry?
If there is only one 'god' certainly there cannot be more than one 'hell'---
---atheist on 8/12/09|
Leon, The Damned in Hell are quite capable of expressing vocally what they are thinking and feeling. No doubt the Rich Man had extreme desperation and pain in his voice when he spoke. Hell-torments consist of unquenchable fires, extreme darkness so thick and evil that it can be felt, the stink of rotten flesh, worms and maggots everywhere, inside and outside of the bodies of the Damned. And cursing with the foulest language imaginable. In Hell there is no Love. The Rich Man begged Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his brothers about Hell for a selfish motive, it wasn't from love. In Hell, there is only pain, anger, regrets, hatred, loneliness, depression, bitterness, cursing, screaming and crying (weeping and gnashing of teeth).
---Gordon on 8/12/09|
atheist: Sometimes you make more sense on biblical doctrines than most Christians. The thought that a non-corporeal body can experience pain takes a great deal more blind belief than the rational, Bible explanation.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.
How does one think without a mind? How does one experience pain without a brain or nerve endings?
---jerry6593 on 8/12/09|
First if Hell is of the burning forever kind, spending an eternity there would certainly qualify as torture---especially as you explained a burn from a neurological pain standpoint.
Jerry believes the 'god' he believes in does not torture, because his 'god' is not a depraved sadist. So you and others here who disagree with Jerry, must believe in another 'god' than he, or you share the same 'god' but Jerry is going to suffer eternal pain because in his reading of the Bible he got some of the details wrong, e.g. 'god' is a sadist. Which is it?
Also, from a neurological point of view, how can your brain signal pain, when you've got no brain, body, or nerves?
---atheist on 8/11/09|
The wages of sin is death, but Jesus took sin away so we could have life. Its so easy to understand but mankind wont have it. Our evil minds want to conjure up everlasting pain and torture from a loving God. Really sick.
---calhoon on 8/11/09|
Some here confuse Hell with the Lake of Fire. It matters that we have a proper (in context), Bible-centered view of Hell. The Bible shows it was important (mattered) enough for Jesus to speak on it.
Would the rich man, in Hell, have been able to have a rational conversation with Abraham if he was being burned in fire? No! He would've been writhing in pain -- oblivious to anyone or anything else. He burned with regret for the self-centered, ungodly life he'd led on earth. He wanted to warn his brothers not to do as he'd done. Reminds me of Marley's confrontation with Ebenezer Scrooge though the rich man of the Bible wasn't able to return. In Hell, he faced & painfully regretted the folly of his earthly life.
---Leon on 8/11/09|
I believe we as Christians focus too much on this question, not realizing that hell ultimately is our eternal separation from Christ. The question we really need to ask ourselves is "is our hearts ultimately with God, or with the evil one?" If you ultimately are with the evil one, I believe hell can seem very real even just through normal life, and i believe that if you truly are with God, your suffering throughout life ultimately brings you more of a revelation of the presence of God, and ultimately through our suffering we should come to the realization that God brings strifes ultimately so that we become closer to Him and love God even more when the suffering comes to an end. Amen.
---nicole on 8/11/09|
Larry --- Lest you or anybody get the idea that I don't believe in hell, let me say only that I am usure what form the suffering will take. I am not certain whether to take the "lake of fire" scriptures literally or figutively, since the BODIES of the dead are in the grave. I like what you have said about comparing the pain to a burn. The agony of hell must surely be as bad.
MarkV --- I also believe a great part of the pain will be the agony of realizing that one has been fatally wrong and it's too late to correct things. All of us live and breathe because of the mercy of God. We have no idea how excruciating total separation from God must be. Those in hell, wherever and whatever it is, will experience this.
---Donna66 on 8/11/09|
Knowing what Hell is like changes your attitude toward sin and Holiness. And, it gives impetus to warn your loved ones about their fate if they die in their sins. I've read what the Scriptures say about Hell and the Lake of Fire (two separate places). I've read testimonies of some people that GOD has taken to Hell and back (of course He can do that, He's GOD.) Hell is your worst nightmare. Your WORST. And, it never ends until the Appointment before GOD's Great White Throne of Judgment. Then, after that is the worst place yet! The Eternal Lake of Fire! Hell is a demonstration of what the sin of mankind looks like to GOD. To GOD, sin is dark, evil, rotten, stinking, a corruption on His Creation, and these are a few descriptions of Hell itself.
---Gordon on 8/11/09|
In one instance no because hell exists whether you believe it or not. On the other hand disbelief will surely earn you a trip.
Your doctor will tell you the most severe pain to the body's nerve system is the burn. Even a 2nd degree burn to a single finger can be excruiating. Can you imagine a full 3rd degree burn with no relief ever?
If there is anything that should urge Christians to be consumed with the lost its hell.
I am not convinced Christians believe hell is as really bad as it is described in Scripture.
Hell represents not just pain but distance from God.
---larry on 8/11/09|
Donna, you are correct in your answers to Jerry. He wants you to explain where the place is at. God does not tell us where, but does say what will happen. Rev. 19:20,21 explains about the false prophet, and those who received the mark, are thrown (alive) into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone." The lake of fire is the final hell, the final place for eternal punisment. The New T, says much of eternal punisment in (14:10,11, Matt. 13:40-42, 25:41, Mark 9:43-48, Luke 3:17, 12:47,48).
Fire and brimstone these words are frequently associated with divine judgment (14:10, 20:10, 21:8, Gen. 19:24, Psa. 11:6, Isa. 30:31, Ez. 38:22, Luke 17:29).
The word of God mention's the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive,
---MarkV. on 8/11/09|
jerry6593 -- I deliberately did not address the questions you ask, because there is too much I don't know. I know that "the wages of sin is death"(Rom 6:23), but there can be different perspectives on that. Concerning details of where and how sinners suffer for their sins, I have as many questions as answers. (But I have no great curiosity about the matter.)
My main purpose was to explain why God doesn't "SEND people to Hell". I also wanted to make the point that I have NO DOUBT that sinners after death suffer horrendous pain (probably of many types) incurred because of their sin. If it wasn't so, Christ wouldn't have needed to suffer as He did, so undeservedly.
---Donna66 on 8/10/09|
What no one has mentioned yet are a few bible facts:
1) Hell was created by God for the DEVIL-not for man.
2) However, since man rebelled against God, turned to false Gods, sinned up the wazoo, won't repent, etc., Jesus told us, "Unless ye repent, ye shall perish." God is a Holy God and can't let sinful man into his heaven, thus we need to repent, and do what Peter told us to do in Acts 2:38.
3) God doesn't send anyone to hell - man sends himself to hell by not repenting, keep on sinning, being rebellous against God, holding onto false doctrine, not forgiving your eneny, etc., Now go argue these points, I don't care.
---anon on 8/10/09|
Donna: And what does the Bible say is the penalty for sin - death or eternal life with torture (Rom 6:23)? And where does the Bible say that the punishment will be administered - in some underground cavern or in a lake of fire (Rev 20:15)? And will the righteous step on the burning souls of the wicked or on their ashes (see Mal 4:3)?
Don't you believe that the correct interpretation of a scripture must agree with ALL other related scriptures? Hanging one's belief system on a single scripture of questionable meaning while ignoring several refuting scriptures is a dangerous position to take, don't you agree?
---jerry6593 on 8/10/09|
If you do not believe in hell then you cannot say you believe in the Word of God. The Word of God describes hell many times and expresses who will go there.
A servant of Christ
---treva4538 on 8/9/09|
The Bible teaches about Hell - it is a place of eternal burning & torture for all that do not accept Christ as Lord. Matthew 8:9, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 23:33, Luke 12:5, 2 Peter 2:4, Revelation 21:8 - these are just to name a few, but there are many, many more. For anyone that does not believe in Hell ("Christians" included), are you willing to gamble your eternal soul on this? Believe what the Bible says before its too late.
---Leslie on 8/9/09|
God does not "punish" those who sin and don't have faith.
But God is totally holy, totally just. And to satisfy justice, sin must be paid for. Furthermore, everyone is a sinner.
Jesus, the totally righteous Son of God, came to earth and suffered an excruciating death, "the righteous for the unrighteous", (I Pet 3:18) to pay the penalty for all our sins.
If a person will not believe this, cannot accept Christ's payment on their behalf, then they are choosing, by default, to pay for their own sins...whatever this entails,
and whatever we believe about the after-life.
---Donna66 on 8/9/09|
"atheist: Imagine (hypothetically if you wish) that there really is a God..."
Okay...there is a 'god'. Being 'god' he must be omnipotent. If he is omnipotent then logically he should have the power of clear communication to his adherents.
But in this blog, with just a few entries, his adherents have demonstrated no cohesive or sensible common understanding of 'Hell'. You are arguing (politely) among yourselves.
Phil:"The problem we have is linguistic, multiple words from Hebrew and Greek are all bundled into one English term Hell."
'God' with his omnipotency should be able to communicate without Phil's apt description of the 'problem' intervening in our enlightenment regarding.
---atheist on 8/9/09|
The problem we have is linguistic, multiple words from Hebrew and Greek are all bundled into one English term Hell. So until you are specifying a specific definition you are not going to get too far. Definitions range from the dwelling place of the dead, the dwelling place of Satin and fallen angles only, a place of eternal punishment, a burning garbage dump outside Jerusalem, lake of fire etc. The one thing they have in common is separation from God. The reader needs to be able to determine which verses are metaphorical usages and which are actual references. Most of the competent theological interpolation see eternal punishment as metaphorical usage. The single point in common of our definitions of hell is separation from God.
---Phil_the_Elder on 8/8/09|
Leslie: Your assertions would carry more weight if you had some scriptures to back them up.
---jerry6593 on 8/8/09|
Our belief in Hell or lack thereof is NOT of concern to God. The Bible says there is Hell, and Jesus talked about Hell more than Heaven. God said it, and it is settled. It does NOT matter whether we believe it or not, the important thing is if it is TRUTH. God's Word and Jesus ARE TRUTH. So whether we believe it or not does NOT change the fact that there is indeed a Hell, and those that do NOT accept Christ will be going there.
---Leslie on 8/8/09|
atheist: Imagine (hypothetically if you wish) that there really is a God that created us all and loves us each as His individual children. Imagine further that He has an arch rival (Satan) who is actively trying to discredit God by making Him distasteful to His children. Wouldn't such a rival attack the very foundation of his enemy's government by inventing false doctrines that paint Him in a bad light. The Bible doesn't teach eternal torture at all, but many well-meaning preachers spout this hellish doctrine weekly in an attempt to scare people into heaven.
"I am only a man and cannot know 'god'"
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
---jerry6593 on 8/8/09|
Amazing,---something we can agree on.
I could never quite wrap my head around the conflicting ideas that 'god' was both loving and at the same time set aside a place for eternal sadistic torture.
With just a few entries here, there is much disagreement as to the existence of 'Hell' and the logical question of "god's nature".
I expect that the answer is I am only a man and cannot know 'god'.
But why would I seek a belief in a 'god' who is so egotistical as to love and favor those who love him and follow his rules (as unclear as they are), and eternally torture those who did not before they died.
Such a 'god' would force me to sit and tremble until I died, fearing I hadn't got it right.
---atheist on 8/8/09|
The idea of hell is perhaps difficult to accept in light of our belief in a loving God (1Jn4:8). Therefore, many people (even Christians) use this as grounds for denying the reality of hell. This despite the clear teaching of Scripture (Mt10:28, Mk9:42-49, Rev20:15 for example). However, I think that it is a mistake to believe that God will not punish sin. God is just. Those who have not Christ, who are not justified by His finished work on the cross, must pay the wages of sin (Ro3:25, Ro6:23, 1Co5:10). God is holy. Sin is offensive to Him, and nothing sinful can even approach Him (Is6:5, Rev21:27).
---Bobby3 on 8/8/09|
That is what God said.
---char on 8/8/09|
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atheist: Good to see you back again. I value your perspective on this subject, because this non-biblical, pagan concept of a cruel god torturing his own children without remorse for all eternity is responsible for creating more atheists than any other. Who among us, Christian or atheist, would actively torture even one of his own children even for a few seconds? Not me! And I doubt that you would either. And just how much fun could heaven be knowing that our loved ones are suffering day and night, year after agonizing year? The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed (not eternally tortured) in the lake of fire prepared for Satan and his angels.
---jerry6593 on 8/8/09|
its not God thats puzzled.people are.Jesus says theres a hell,thats good enough for me.
---tom2 on 8/8/09|
I would think that if there is only one true 'god' and you all are worshipping the same 'god' that you would all agree on the existence or non-existence of 'Hell'.
I can hardly rationalize the thought of two people believing in the same 'god' but not being able to agree on 'Hell' and how to get there.
I mean, doesn't 'god' make it clear to his believers about the existence of 'Hell'?
If 'god' is omnipotent he should be able to at least provide clarity on this one basic issue...
---atheist on 8/7/09|
Jesus was asked by an apostle or two if he will cast down fire and brimstone upon a communuty that the apostles recently visited and Jesus' reply was,Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Therefore it does not matter for many do not know what manner of spirit they are of.
---earl on 8/7/09|
No. All that is important is believing in Jesus.
---amand6348 on 8/7/09|
I can show you places where if you look closely, you will see how it is Hell on Earth for those living there. These people could not imagine life being much worse for themselves and many are in fact "trying Christians".
---stephen on 8/7/09|
Yes it matters because if you don't know Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and if someone doesn't repent of their sins, Jesus said, "Unless ye repent, ye shall perish."
Wouldn't you want to do everything you could to avoid going there?
Wouldn't you want to warn the wicked that if they don't repent, Jesus said they will perish and he said in hell there shall be weeping and nashing of teeth.
Do you not believe in hell? It still exists whether or not you believe in it or not. Just make sure you're not going there.
---anon on 8/7/09|