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Can We Continue To Sin

If Jesus preached and told us to preach, the disciples preached, and the apostles preached REPENTANCE, why do Christians think that they do not need to repent, because of the the blood? Does grace really mean we can sin and not repent?

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 ---Leslie on 8/26/09
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Certainly seems that the Father knows ahead of time who will come to Jesus.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/9/09

Just because God KNOWS all things ahead of time does not PROVE in any way that because He KNOWS something we are robots.

I KNOW when I leave my house my dog will climb on the sofa. I was not there to make her jump up.(However I know she will). She does out of her own free choice/will.

She has TWO choices as do we. She can lay on the floor, or jump on my sofa/or something else.

I can chose Life or chose death....God gave man 2 CHOICES!!! Life or Death.

Whatever we chose He knows, and whatever we chose will not knock the universe out of control or interfere with the Sovereignty of God!
---kathr4453 on 9/10/09

John 6:44-45 actually goes together.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father cometh unto me.,

The part I highlighted is HOW the Father draws us to him.
We hear and believe the truth given by Christ. Romans 10:17
Acts 19:2 proves you don't receive the Holy Spirit until AFTER you have heard the truth and believe.

Many like to use verse 44 out of context.
by cherry picking. The word is read as a whole, NOT in one verse here or there.
---miche3754 on 9/10/09

If we can no continue to sin, why is it that Jesus is our advocate before the father at the present time?
---mima on 9/10/09

Concerning this post
---MarkV. on 9/10/09

You have salvation backwards!
You must hear the truth first. (romans 10:17)The rebirth doesn't happen until you receive Christ as your savior through believing his word is TRUTH.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

This says God's Spirit is in the truth of Jesus's words.
John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him
---miche3754 on 9/10/09

Our salvation flows from a divine initiative. It is God the Holy Spirit who sets the captive free. It is He who breaths into us spiritual life and resurrects us from the dead.
Our Condition before we are quickened is one of spiritual death. There is not an once of spiritual life in us until God makes us alive.
Without rebirth no one will come to Christ. All who are reborn do come to Christ. Those who are dead to the things of God stay dead to the things of God unless God makes them alive. Those whom God makes alive, come alive. Salvation is of the Lord.
---MarkV. on 9/10/09

John 6:45 comes after John 6:44 had just mentioned that
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets and they shall all be taught by God"
Only the one's the Father draws to Himself that are given to Christ are taught by God. The "all" is not speaking of the world at large.
John 3:19, is speaking about the depravity of man, how fallen he is. They will not come to the light because they love evil. Which is the reason that God has to come to them and plant the love of Christ in their hearts so that they are able to love Him and trust in Him. Without God they continue loving what they are doing, evil.
---MarkV. on 9/10/09

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out".
- Mark E.
He knows who will come BUT he doesn't make them come.
AND Notice it says "and the ones that come to me"
Do you believe that Jesus was lying when he said he came to save the world?
---miche3754 on 9/10/09

John 6:45: "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." Is God unjust, that he teaches some that they learn and others so they do not? Is it not rather, John 3:19: "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." Is God unjust, that when man persists in 'turning a blind eye', he completes the pair for them? Man puts himself out, God doesnt do it.

Matthew 23:34, "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify,..."
---Nana on 9/9/09

One may define sin as acting outside of love.

As one grows in an awareness and experience of love, more and more able to engage in it, one grasps just how beneficial that love is to them, so naturally they will not want to act outside of love.

This means that naturally any behaviour one might consider sin will become less and less frequent, due to growth in love, with it coming from the heart.
---Jenny on 9/9/09

Miche, Kathr:

What about the one where Jesus says:

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out".

Certainly seems that the Father knows ahead of time who will come to Jesus.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/9/09

It certainly would appear He is asking US to do something wouldn't it?!!

That really throws cold water on those who think their names were picked out of a hat, having no personal responsibility. If Calvinism were in fact true, (no such comment from GOD would have been made.)

---kathr4453 on 9/9/09
AMEN!! MY SISTER! It sure does!

Doesn't Jesus say to that he did not come to condemn the world but to save it?
That is another good one too!
And come to me ALL who are burdened, etc...and I (Jesus) will give you rest!
---miche3754 on 9/9/09

Miche quoted this scrpture:

"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Miche notice what is said here, Repent and BELIEVE the Gospel.

(Just a quick note here that one CAN believe the Gospel without first being Born Again TO BELIEVE...and also notice Jesus said FIRST, REPENT, and then says, Believe.

It certainly would appear He is asking US to do something wouldn't it?!!

That really throws cold water on those who think their names were picked out of a hat, having no personal responsibility. If Calvinism were in fact true, (no such comment from GOD would have been made.)

---kathr4453 on 9/9/09

Miche, Duane is correct, we REPENT ( turn to Christ ONCE for salvation. However the greatest chapters in scripture concerning SIN is Romans 6-8 and in those chapters REPENT is not mentioned.

What is stated is:

Surrender your members unto Righteousness.

It doesn't get any clearer. Paul is telling us WHAT Christ and Calvary accomplished. It accomplished MORE than just forgivness, but POWER over sin.

We must uphold the CROSS and Christ in you, HE and HE alone is our hope of Glory.

Either Christ and HIS Power is at work in you or it isn't. Don't put your faith in the wisdom of men, but in the POWER OF GOD
---kathr4453 on 9/9/09

Be honost with yourself. Do you truely follow all his commandments all the time? Do you... if you don't, don't you think you need the Lord Jesus Christ to cleanse you? Wash your feet. Did not even Judus who was with our Lord daily seeing his mighty works of God and healing of the sick and forgiving of sins and doing these works? Did he not also betray the Lord? Well that being said let us not be to confident but let us find Grace in our Lord daily to complete us in his mighty work in our life. We cannot be arrogant about our salvation in Christ because our heart is evil, our minds are corrupt and flesh is weak. Let us Look to Jesus to deliver us to his mighty works. Amen
---john_camping on 9/9/09

Isaiah 1:16-17: "Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes, cease to do evil, Learn to do well, seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow."

Matthew 9:13: "But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice:..."

2 Timothy 2:15: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Learn and study is the advice, there is your new heart. Unfortunately, some are so full of themselves, that like a scratched record will be, 2 Timothy 3: "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
---Nana on 9/8/09

Christians dont need to repent, they already have. If you havent repented towards God, your not a Christian. All non- christians must turn to God(repent) and believe on HIM to be saved.
How else can a man be set free from sin if not through faith in the Cross.
---duane on 9/8/09

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I also don't see the word REPENT there either.-kath

I agree with all you said accept this little part.
Jesus preached repentance.
That is one of the first steps in salvation process.
Believe what Jesus says, repent of wicked ways, etc...

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand
Mark 1:14-15
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I really enjoyed the rest of your post though!
---miche3754 on 9/8/09

Leslie, why don't you look at scripture ...Romans 6-8 for example and ask the correct question. Now when reading, you will notice Paul says, SHALL we continue to sin that Grace may abound...GOD FORBID!

Paul doesn't teach any such thing.

It only shows those who ask these questions do not KNOW the DOCTRINE of the Gospel of GRACE, or possibly have never been saved by Grace.

Those who are saved by GRACE not only believe Romans 6-8 but have applied it to their lives. I also don't see the word REPENT there either. The word is CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST! BIG difference. One has POWER, and one does not. Saying I'm sorry has no power, Crucified with Christ DOES! Galatians 2:20 & 21 will explain.
---kathr4453 on 9/8/09

Genuine Christian see their inability and knows that he does not make himself eligible for heaven by his own good works and merits. He realizes he cannot move spiritually but as he is moved, that like the branches of a tree, he can make no shoot, nor put forth leaves, nor bear fruit, except as he receives sap from the root.

No man makes himself a sheep, but is created such by divine grace. The none-elect hear the word of God but disbelieve, not because they lack sufficient evidence, but because their inward nature is opposed to holiness. They need the promises of the New Covenant, "A new heart also I will give you, and a new spirit will I put within you,
That's why all genuine Christians are convicted when they sin.
---MarkV. on 9/8/09

You spoke "against" the right of God been Ruler of all things when you argue that man can come to Christ in his lost state, without a new heart, Spiritually dead, blind as a bat, someone who cannot hear or understand spiritual things. -markv.

ALL Christians started out like this.
We all started as sinners!
By saying things like this, you are saying man can't be saved. That theres no reason Christ came!
You are wrong.
Stop falsely accusing me.
God sent Jesus BECAUSE of man's fallen state to save man.
He says thats why he sent him. Why do continue to spread false doctrine?
I hope everyone on here sees what you said, when I know all of us were in this fallen state before coming to Christ.
---miche3754 on 9/8/09

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Markv cont...
I have never said God is powerless. I said God provides us the choices. God does not force anything on people. To force is not love.
The Bible says that GOD IS LOVE!
God did not make us as robots. He sets before us choices and tells us to choose.
That IS God having ultimate power!
God is NOT in us until we believe and repent. He will not live in an unclean vesel. He will not remake a vessel without repentance. We HAVE to come to him with a contright and broken spirit. He says these in his word!
God doesn't make us do anything. Again, to force IS NOT LOVE!
Look at the story of Abraham.
God said IF YOU DO THIS, I WILL DO THIS. He tells us even now. If we will believe and repent, HE WILL SAVE US!
---miche3754 on 9/8/09

Miche, no matter what you say about me, you will not cause me to sin. You displayed works all through your answers with the acception of your last post.- markv

Jesus says if you think it in your heart you have already committed it.

And where have I displayed works on this site?

I have said if we are Christian, we must obey God. That is truth. And if we are true, then we will obey God because we love him. Because the love of Christ is in us.
Brother, I have not accused you as you have me. And every one has seen what you have said to me. I have said your doctrine is wrong and you misinterpret scripture. You spread falsehoods about people, and that brother is bad fruit. Not of the Spirit.
---miche3754 on 9/8/09

Miche, no matter what you say about me, you will not cause me to sin. You displayed works all through your answers with the acception of your last post.
You spoke "against" the right of God been Ruler of all things when you argue that man can come to Christ in his lost state, without a new heart, Spiritually dead, blind as a bat, someone who cannot hear or understand spiritual things. Who hates God, with all that is in him. Who are children of wrath, doing the desires of their father the devil. This are the people you defend.
And suggest that God is helpless unless man let Him into their hearts. And the Bible says you are wrong on all counts. I have given you Scripture, you have given nothing but your angry opinions.
---MarkV. on 9/8/09

Mark E,
How is it God works on those who believe?
God is love, and it is love that shows in us.
Christ laid his life down for us because he loved us. If we believe this, God puts that love in us. The perfec love of God.
We then obey God because we love him. He has put this love in us through his finished work through Christ.
Our obedience there fore is the love of God showing through us.
This is God helping us to love even the person that offends us the most.

Carol, I know. I have dealt with it here and now my Church body is dealing with it because of our old Pastor. HE was about lifting himself up instead of God.
---miche3754 on 9/8/09

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Rod, I just want to say GOD BLESS YOU!!!
I understand exactly what Markv is saying.
My problem with him is his false accusations of me.
"Christians" that do that, to me, are not showing the fruit God placed in them. They are producing strife, etc... That is of the enemy. Divisions are of the enemy not God.
It is good works that show a person is a Christian. Those good works are in obedience to God, who by the Holy Spirit, lives in us and helps us do these good works.
Not everyone is a pharisee trying to buy their way into heaven.
---miche3754 on 9/8/09


Jesus stated it this way when asked about works:

John 6:28 "Therefore they said to Him, What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

same passage:

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out"

same passage:

John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day"

Jesus has told us that the only work you need to do is believe in Him and He will not cast you out and will raise you up on the last day.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/6/09

miche3754 ,
Part 1
Jesus commended his church saying, "I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false." Rev 2:2 So despite the emphasis on tolerance one finds so pervasive among the churches these days, Jesus commends intolerance. Concerning wicked people who call themselves "Christian", Paul likewise commands, "Expel the wicked man from among you." 1Cor 5:13b

There are two areas in which Christians are to be intolerant. One is with respect to doctrine.
---carroll1234 on 9/6/09

Let me jump in as an outsider looking in on the present conversation. It appears to me that miche and MarkV are discussing two sides of the same coin, but think that the other is incorrect. From reading their posts, they are both correct.
Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
Salvation comes first and works follow. If no works follow, one would conclude that no salvation took place. So, it is correct that works do not save. Furthermore, if one has works (good deeds), that does not mean they are saved.
A problem is when we see "so-called Christians" claiming to be saved (because of a prayer they may have prayed), and then there are no works to verify their salvation. How do we view them? By their fruits, we will know them.
---Rod on 9/6/09

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Rhonda -**If you CAREFULLY read these passages tying them back to KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS and OBEY it is VERY CLEAR that mans idea of...

Yes we can only agree,however, what are the commandments of God we must obey?

Christ gives the answer in Romans 13:9-10

The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, not murder, not steal, not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.... therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

But nowhere in the New Covenant of the church, does Jesus command us or even suggest we observe the OT Sabbath, nor must we be physically circumcised as neither has anything to do with love of neighbor.
---lee on 9/6/09

I have not confused about it!
Again you lie about me. BAD FRUIT!!! From you! you wrongfully accuse the breathren!
I have said many times That the works are evidence of Christ in us, but you just want to make yourself look good!
You don't realize that you are a walking contridiction!
God is NOT the author of confusion! Which you seem to spread every blog you put in. That is enough evidence for me!
---miche3754 on 9/6/09

Miche, it is the number one thing for all believers. It is not the cause of our salvation, but the evidence that Christ lives in us, for greater is He who is in me that he who is in the world. Don't confuse works for salvation with the atonement of Christ, which does not need to be subplimented with our works, or else you will fall for another gospel, the same one the RCC, Islam, Mormons, Jehovah Witnessess teaches. True faith produces good works.
---MarkV. on 9/6/09

Forgiveness is something a Christian HAS, and not something he must still obtain. Obedience is the product of love. Do we obey to obtain something or do we obey because we love HIM?
We love because HE first loved us. We are forgiven because HE first forgave us.
---duane on 9/6/09

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Here is a very clear statement made by MarkV about those who are working for their salvation.
"What they seem to not understand is that forgiveness is not given in exchange for obedience."
Study the statement it truly goes against mankind's thoughts. Even though it is very true it rubs the grain of the natural man's understanding!!
---mima on 9/6/09

When a passage states the same thing three times, you need to pay attention to it.

most pay attention to verses unable to tie them into more difficult scripture because of their misunderstanding

If you CAREFULLY read these passages tying them back to KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS and OBEY it is VERY CLEAR that mans idea of:

"secured the remission of sin" is simply IMPLIED

AGAIN - Christ was VERY CLEAR KEEP AND OBEY my commandments RELIGIOUS christianity IMPLIES you have to do no such thing because salvation is "secured" which is antichrist to all verses describing OBEYING
---Rhonda on 9/6/09


The remission of sins is not implied, it is stated very succinctly.

Heb 10:10 "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all"

and again

Heb 10:12 "but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD"

and again

Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified"

When a passage states the same thing three times, you need to pay attention to it.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/5/09

Being obedient to God should be number one in a Christians life!
God is our father and we are to obey him the same way we are supposed to obey our earthy parents when we are children.
Stop accusing me of something I never said!
I am now assuming you believe you ARE NOT suppose to obey God and put him first in everything you do.
Unlike you, I do. There is nothing in my life that I do without consulting God first!
Do you really believe we aren't suppose to obey God?!
We are suppose to obey God. Those who have CHrist in them are suppose to obey what he says. PERIOD!
Rhonda, Sister what you said gets a big AMEN!
---miche3754 on 9/5/09

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And since you don't believe in that God comes to the lost and saves them but that they come to Him,- markv

You are wrong because this is what Jesus said-

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest

It doesn't say come unto me all that I choose and I will give you rest.

John 7:37
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink

It doesn't say come all the men I choose.
Markv, you take scripture way out of context.
---g on 9/5/09

What they do with their believes is to undermine the one sacrifice of Jesus that forever secured the remission of sins.

where does it say "secured the remission of sin" in Gods Holy Word?

It doesn't one MUST IMPLY that idea

and to IMPLY that idea one must also DISMISS Christ and HIS VERY WORDS were he says if you LOVE ME KEEP my commandments ...and many other verses describing obedience

free loving LIP SERVICE "christ lovers" PERVERT Gods Holy Word so they can remain in their sins and DECEIVE MANY into believing they are absolved just by believe which is antichrist

which is why Christ said MANY will call out my name and be FAR FROM ME and I will say to them I NEVER KNEW YOU
---Rhonda on 9/5/09

// What they seem to not understand is that forgiveness is not given in exchange for obedience.

Totally true, but hopefully they will heed what you state and realize that the righteous live by faith - from start to finish (Romans 1:17).

And that God is able to finish that work He has begin in us unto that day when we will see Jesus face to face.

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
---lee on 9/5/09

Lee, I just finished answering Ignatius. And the same holds true for Jerry and others who believe in works of the law. I had the same struggles with Anne and Miche concerning works of obedience. What they do with their believes is to undermine the one sacrifice of Jesus that forever secured the remission of sins. That the atonement death of Christ paid in full the penalty of all our sins, rendering us sinless before God. Allowing us to be free from all condemnation, and assures us that upon death we will join the Lord in heaven. What they seem to not understand is that forgiveness is not given in exchange for obedience. The offer of pardon is to believe by faith in the works of Christ and be baptized into Him in whom salvation is found.
---MarkV. on 9/5/09

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MarkV - I can totally agree with you that all too often all some people have is a religious philosophy based upon some standard of ethical behavior. But there are without the indwelling Spirit.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Unfortunately those kind (the religionists) are very difficult to reach with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It may really be a sad day for them when they face Jesus face to face,and all they have to boost about is obedience to the Sabbath commandment.
---lee on 9/3/09

Jerry, it is rediculous to you because you don't even believe in God putting His Spirit in a believer, that you have declared already. That is why the Bible declares about those without the Spirit,
"The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned" 1 Cor. 2:14.
And since you don't believe in that God comes to the lost and saves them but that they come to Him, and you believe in Him losing the one's He saved, you don't understand the things of God. It is no wonder you do not understand a whole lot of things and no wonder you want to stay under the Law.
---MarkV. on 9/3/09

Leslie: What you are talking about here is CHEAP GRACE, also known as ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED. It is the idea that since you once were sincerely repentant, you are forever immune to prosecution for violating THE LAW. Another ridiculous concept is that of PREDESTINATION, wherein you are not able to repent because you were created to be lost - without the will to repent.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
---jerry6593 on 9/3/09

Yes,but I don't think a true believer will want to sin and more I think they will try hard to improve.If they aren't I wonder if there is a true heart change.We should want to live our lives as Jesus did.
---shirley on 9/3/09

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Nana, there is no argument with you. I do know many times what is in your heart because what you write comes from your heart and gives evidence on the kind of person you are, the same with Alan. But even if I can see what kind of person you are by your remarks, I cannot see if you are saved or not. That information belongs only to God.
For whenever I answer you with Scripture you come out with your sarcastic remarks towards me, or to those who oppose your Catholic doctrines. Every one who opposes the doctrines of the Sovereignty of God say the same things as you, and some even worse. That always happens from those who who oppose God been in control. It is the carnal mind that is at enmity against God.
---MarkV. on 9/3/09

Hey silly rabbit Trix is for kids!
Have I addressed you on this blog, or are you Mark Eaton?
As far as reading hearts, nah, maybe the Taco bell lunch menu is what you are reading...
What is it?
---Nana on 9/2/09

Nana, there is no argument with you. I can read your heart just from your words. That is very simple. What comes out of your mouth comes from your heart. That is how I know. So when I hear one of you, anyone trash, call someone not saved, it is not the spirit of God but the spirit of the antichrist. Now it might be a temperary action but nevertheless it is not from God.
That I choose what I do for God is only because of God. I take no glory for myself. Because I know that if He was not in my life, I would be doing other things. You have a nice day Nana, don't join that group. You had done well for a time, don't ruin the good with the bad.
---MarkV. on 9/2/09

The means the Father uses to take away is not always direct as when he sent the Angel against Balaam. Every good gift is from above including not only mercy but also justice, which things we must always practice. The justice and even the mercy of God, if you can see it, in an example were reavealed in 1 Timothy 1:20: "Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." Truly it was said, "withered, and men gather them", and not too far from the vine this instance.
---Nana on 9/1/09

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Mark ... You say to Leslie ... "Leslie, sounds to me like you are suggesting you can read my heart from where you live."

And then you say to me ... "Because you refuse to give Him glory"

So now I reply to you .. "Mark, sounds to me like you are suggesting you can read my heart from where you live"

And when you say "I choose to stay with God's will, because of who I am as a Christian" ... it still seems to me that by your choice you are exercising your own FreeWill, particularly when you also say, "what I choose and what God chooses are two different things"
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/1/09

Alan, what I choose and what God chooses are two different things. I choose to stay with God's will, because of who I am as a Christian. I have Christ in my life and I cannot think of anything else in my heart other then Him for my life. I am a slave to Him so all my actions are for Him.
God made me that way when He gave me life. If He hadn't I would be rejecting Him out of my own will. I do my Fathers will because He lives in me. My will is not free, it is in bondage to Him. I could force myself to do my own will, but that is not what is in my heart. You don't understand this things because you don't understand your status before God. Because you refuse to give Him glory. My glory is for the Lord for He controls my life.
---MarkV. on 9/1/09

Leslie, sounds to me like you are suggesting you can read my heart from where you live. Statements as yours do not belong to a genuine Christian, but to an apostate. You do not even honor God with your lips, let along with your heart.
Second, you have not provided one passage where God stated He gave everyone free will to choose Him or not. So before you make comments you should study to make yourself approve. And give evidence that you are truely saved. "Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil, for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"
---MarkV. on 9/1/09

If we abide in the vine, we WILL bear fruit.
Branches dont produce fruit. They only bear the fruit that the vine produces.
We must abide IN HIM so we can bear good fruit.
---duane on 8/31/09

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Nana, Mike E.
Great discussion guys.
Lets not forget that the stuff that gets pruned or cut off from the tree bearing fruit is the stuff God can't use in us and that is not profitable to him or us.
Really like the discussion awesome words from both of you!
---miche3754 on 8/31/09


I don't disagree with you, but there is another component to this passage and it is fruit. Jesus talks about abiding in Him and bearing fruit.

I believe if you "boil down" what Jesus says it goes like this,

You must abide in Jesus. If you do not abide in Jesus, you will dry up and be cast into fire. When you abide in Jesus, you must bear fruit. If you abide in Jesus and do not bear fruit, the Father will take you away. If you abide in Jesus and bear fruit, the Father will prune you so you can bear more.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/31/09

I do not agree with you either. John 15:3: "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." It is not enough to be cleansed, we must remain anchored to the word, just as Peter testified in John 6 when the Lord said, "Will ye also go away?, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.", v68. So, here now the Lord adds, John 15:4: "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in me."
---Nana on 8/30/09

2 Peter 2:
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that CANNOT CEASE FROM SIN, beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices, cursed children:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions(SINS) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, AFTER they have known it, to TURN from the holy commandment delivered unto them

I URGE you to read the whole chapter
---YLBD on 8/29/09

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The John 15:1-6 passage shows many things and it shows one thing that few agree with me on.

As you have said in verse 2, the Father "takes" away the branches that do not bear fruit. These are not the same branches as verse 6 which are thrown into the fire. Those branches do not abide in Jesus.

The branches in verse 2 do abide in Jesus and are believers that have been pruned but yet they still do not bear fruit. Perhaps they are lazy believers or they do not want to work for the Lord. Anyway, I believe God 'takes' them away from earth to stand before Jesus who will not be happy to see them.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/29/09

MarkV. - Sounds to me like you are NOT a Christian, and are headed to Hell. The Bible says humans have free will - God gave it to them. Even after salvation, Christians still sin because of free will - and therefore MUST repent or go to Hell (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8). As a Christian, if you say you do not sin, you are a LIAR (1 John 1:8-10). This is ALL in the Bible. You do NOT go by the Bible, therefore, you are NOT God's, but belong to your Father Satan. REPENT before it's too late.
---Leslie on 8/29/09

John 15:1-2: "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

Interesting that the "husbandman" is the same who suppossedly "seals" the branch. Does not he also "taketh away" besides purging?
It may just be that with the advent of Crazy-Glue, a whole world of possibilities have opened for today's christian...
---Nana on 8/29/09

"So I will stick to God's will"

That itself indicates that you are making a FreeWill choice to do God's wishes rather than follow your own.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/29/09

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Leslie, if you want to face hell as a genuine Christian that is up to you. I have the promises of God that I have been redeemed with the blood of Christ and am holding on to the righteousness of Christ imputed to me. As I understand Scripture, God loses none of His children.
But you are probably one who believes in free will and that you can do what you want, so maybe in your case you can go to hell. I don't believe in free will. I believe in the will of God. My will is messed up, it is never free, it always wants to do something contrary to what God wants. So I will stick to God's will.
---MarkV. on 8/28/09

Mima, Yes. I can't understand why so many seem horrified at the thought that God could forgive sins not yet committed! Christ's blood PAID the price for ALL our sins long before we were ever born... long before we could even think of them, much less repent! Isn't that what salvation is about? Unmerited favor? And once we come to know HIM, do we then toss Grace aside because NOW we must DESERVE his salvation?

It reminds me of those who upbraided their master for giving equal pay to late-comers who worked only a short time. They couldn't stand it that he had compassion for the "undeserving" even though they themselves suffered no loss. They are the people who are always focused on other peoples faults.
---Donna66 on 8/28/09

Romans 4:8,"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." In this statement the scripture is talking about someone to whom the Lord will not impute sin(may I suggest this speaks of those who are saved). Look again at this verse, where does it mention repentance? Is it possible that it means exactly what it says? That a born-again Christian has already been forgiven of his sins even those that he is not yet committed!!!!!!! Repentance surely proceeds, is necessary, before salvation takes place. But once salvation has taken place and the seal has been put in place, God does not impute sin to that person. why? Because that person's sins had been paid for by Christ on the cross!!
---mima on 8/28/09

Thanks Donna, and a big AMEN to what you shared. I had my periods of rebellion as a believer. In fact, after during my divorce, I was fully prepared to just chuck Christianity's practice and live like the devil out of the pain. That was when my discipling friend just kept holding onto me as I cried, and questioned the Lord and His plan for me. She gave me Jeremiah 29:11, which I clung to so desperately I would cry and pray it to the Lord.

The other thing she would do is remind me of Romans 8:38-39, and tell me that nothing separates me from God's love in Christ, including my rebellious attitude and sin.
---Trish on 8/27/09

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Trish-- yes, every young Christian should have such guidance.

My other reason for posting is to say God's Grace is greater than many people imagine. For even when I gave up on Him, He did not give up on me. I WAS His child. I walked away from Him but He did not disown me. (neither did my earthly father, when I made some stupid harmful mistakes).

During the years I was "disavowing" Christianity, the Lord reached out to me in hundreds of little ways coaxing me back to Him.

Grace does not give license to sin (who needs a "license", anyway?). But, contrary to what many assert, every sin of a Christian does not automatically infuriate God, nor make one unredeemable, either.
---Donna66 on 8/27/09

MarkV - You are right to an extent. The word repentance means not just to feel and say sorry, but to turn from that sin. Yes, repentance leads to salvation, but what about sinning after that. It is not enough to feel sorry, but we must turn from that sin. If we do not, we still face Hell. It is just like a drug addict who is sorry for and feels bad for his drug use, but still continues to use drugs.
---Leslie on 8/27/09

Donna: I totally relate...which is why I encourage young believers to find a discipler/mentor to guide them as they begin walking in the Lord. Mine would not let me give up, which was all too often, and she just never stopped loving me, and reminding me of God's love and grace. When I would confess a sin that I felt mortified about committing as a believer, she would ask me, "Do you think that sin surprises Jesus?" "He knew about it and went to the cross anyway." "Thank Him, and move forward."
---Trish9863 on 8/27/09

Leslie, the repentance that Jesus spoke of and that John the Baptist spoke of was repentance to salvation. Without a contrite heart, a person cannot be save. Once a person is a believer, born of the Spirit, it is as Shawn T has explained, "What it means to be covered with the Grace of the Blood of Christ is that if you do sin(once revealed to you by the Holy Spirit) you'll have a heart to repent." All genuine believers have a heart to repent. They don't want to sin anymore but when they do, they feel in their hearts they have transgressed against God and feel true remorse. Contrition is true and godly repentance. It is genuine. It includes a deep remorse for having offended God.
---MarkV. on 8/27/09

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I will direct this to you but it really goes out to many others.

Why are you criticizing other believers? Are you really questioning if they are believers?

The test is very simple.

1 John 2:4 "The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".

The word "Christian" has become meaningless to me. It is used by everyone to simply mean a good person, (without God there are NONE).

You need to tell these people you see the truth, preach to them the truth, obey the Scriptures and do the truth yourself (as a witness to them), and leave the other people to God.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/27/09

Tom I have been very very careful to point out that I am not speaking of outsiders but of people who claim to be Christian but teach nonBiblical, and antiBiblical doctrines. See Acts 20:29, 30 'I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.'

I think this is at least the third time I have pointed out that I defend the word against those who claim to be Christian but teach error. Cont.
---Warwick on 8/27/09

warwick,jesus said to the apostles that God lets the tares grow with the wheat.,that at the harvest the tares will be burn,t,YES GOD DOES IGNORE THE UNREPENT THE NON BELIEVERS,THE ATHIEST.his word says he does.
---tom2 on 8/26/09

Trish -- I have seen the same thing. In fact,rather early in my Christian experience I gave into such hopelessness for several years. I sincerely believed, and tried to the best of my ability to avoid sin.

BUT when I found that I was inevitably unsuccessful, I reasoned that... either I was irreparably flawed... or that Christianity could not be genuine and still demand the impossible.

I had no mature adult Christian to help me with this. The Lord himself never let go of me, even when I completely discounted Him. In time He brought me back to faith in Him.
---Donna66 on 8/26/09

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Unfortunately, in spite of how much we repent, we will still sin. 1 John 1:9 tells us how to deal with that.

My guess is that some, not all, but some believers get a sense of hopelessness about this reality and just throw up their hands and quit resisting temptation.

Just a guess, but I have seen many believers just give up trying.
---Trish9863 on 8/26/09

---tom2 on 8/26/09

To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

What it means to be covered with the Grace of the Blood of Christ is that if you do sin(once revealed to you by the Holy Spirit) you'll have a heart to repent.

Man cannot tell you when to repent, he can only tell you that repentance is required.

Those who do not have a renewed repenting heart and think that repentance is not required, are not of the Children of God.
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/26/09

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