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Can One Refuse Salvation

Does a person have the power to refuse God's invitation of salvation?

Moderator - Of course, otherwise everyone would be going to heaven.

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kathrine you are the thorn on mark v's side. have you read the story? very interesting.
---bob on 9/11/09

WOW MarkV, those who disagree with Calvinism are anti-christ??!

If in fact I have no free will, that would mean I am doing GOD's Will. Because I HAVE presented my life a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God, not being conformed to this world or evil worldly people teaching false doctrine accusing GOD of being a monster, but have been transformed by the remewing of my mind, that I KNOW the will of God, God now working in me to will and to DO of His good pleasure....THAT IS:

TO PREACH THE GOSPEL of Jesus Christ to LOST souls, and to REBUKE false teaching not in line with scripture!

CALVINISM is false, a philosophy, Gnosticism and brought to you by a murderer!

Who was a murderer from the beginning...SATAN!!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/11/09

Part #2

NOW Back to the Question:

What does the BIBLE SAY? It says the complete OPPOSITE of MarkV! WHO are you going to put YOUR faith in...Mark's doctrine, or God's WORD!!!

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Acts 2:40-41
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: ....

Can one RESIST the invitation to Salvation? ABSOLUTELY!!!!

Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/09

Kathr, I don't have to answer to you anymore for all you are doing is bringing sin over and over to confuse the Word of God and cause me to sin against you.
Your questions and answers are like venom. I will stop answering your evil intentions concerning my life, my family, and God. For your own good, my suggestion is for you to repent of your sins, ask God to forgive you, for you are doing the work in the spirit of the antichrist.
---MarkV. on 9/10/09

MarkV, that last comment you made is so silly. You said "If the will was free it would have no desire or motive, it would not choose.

Where do you come up with these statements. Even in a game show ,the free will of a contestant DOES in fact have not only a DESIRE but MOTIVE to choose the correct DOOR #1 or Door #2 of Door #3. The desire and motive is to WIN THE PRIZE. If the Sponsor says " You will have to choose Door #1 whether you want to or not....where THEN is motive or desire? There is none.

If God chose those to go to hell, HE has STOLEN away DESIRE and MOTIVE, and those going to hell certainly did not desire or motivate themselves to that place!
---kathr4453 on 9/10/09


Gentiles...NOT MARKV, were predestined by God from the foundation of the world to become His elect by grace called THE MYSTERY which is CHRIST IN YOU **Col 1**. The correct definition of grace given to Gentiles is salvation apart from the Law of Moses and circumcision.

GRACE vs LAW is what PAUL is teaching EVERYWHERE...not the personal election of MarkV? FAITH is in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ

AND the MYSTERY is CHRIST IN YOU...Colossians 1 !!!

The definition that grace is "unmerited favor" is an erroneous doctrine not supported by scripture, and totally TWISTS everything Paul teaches us about Salvation by Grace through FAITH!!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/10/09

MarkV, How then did your convincing your wife of Calvinism set her free?

YOU say you were born again to SEE all truth concerning your election B4 salvation...YET you say you had to convince your wife through knock down drag out arguments to make her SEE. Who had a knock down with you?

So you are saying your wife was NOT saved in the same manner as you, or was given her New Birth First. You had to HUMANLY convince her?
MarkV, that is called brainwashing...not the Holy Spirit! AND a total contradiction to everything you teach.

You are PROVING the belief of Calvinism comes only by HUMAN intervention!

My point being, the Holy Spirit nor scripture teach does! Through indoctrination !
---kathr4453 on 9/10/09

Every action or decision someone makes is motivated by a desire. If the will was free it would have no desire or motive, it would not choose. If someone loves strawberry icecream and hates chocolate he will not go against his will and eat chocolate, he will choose strawberry. Even Kathr was motivated to answer me because of her desire. Her will was not free. The will is never free. A person could go against his will if someone had a gun to his head.
The natural man does not want Christ. He will only want Christ if God plants a desire for Christ in his heart. Once that desire is planted, those who come to Christ do not come kicking and screaming against their wills. They come because they want to come. They run to the Savior.
---MarkV. on 9/10/09

Kathr, why do you fabricate what you say about me? I never mentioned I save anyone, or set her free or for that matter anyone free. You twist what I say to your liking. A sinful action you cannot stop. You have a choice also, just as the lost do, to stop or continue. But whatever choice you make, will be made by what motivates your will, and your will is motived by what is in your heart.
Just as the lost. They are motivated by what is in their heart, their hearts are in rebellion against God. That is why their wills are not free. If the will was free, they would not be able to choose one way or another, and God would not be able to judge their motives. God will also judge your motives, and you will be responsible for what you say.
---MarkV. on 9/10/09

It doesn't take any special power to refuse God's invitation. All you have to do is nothing and this is your rejection. The Lord does not force Himself on anyone. Of course, you will regret rejecting His offer of salvation.
---wivv on 9/9/09

AMEN Sandra, God wants Children who out of their free will want HIM.

And how will God honestly judge the world, except as Paul said, by the Gospel preached...accepting or rejecting God's FREE GIFT of forgivness of sin based SOLELY on the shed Blood of Jesus Christ.

If God is going to JUDGE by the Gospel as Paul said, then that is proof enough that the preaching of the GOSPEL( THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST 1 CORINTHIANS 15:1-4) is in fact the POWER of God unto salvation.****ROMANS 10:9-10

The Gospel Paul preached is not... I can't believe God picked, me, me myself and I AND that is all Calvinism says.
---kathr4453 on 9/9/09

People refuse salvation all the time. God gave man the freedom to choose. He wants people to chose Him, not the world and Satan. But it is the individual choice of every person.
---Sandra on 9/9/09

Miche, I never berated my wife. I showed her Scripture as I have shown you, and she was set free. MarkV***

Interestingly enough, MarkV thinks HE set his wife from what??? free from SIN?? or free from her own personal conscience before God?

The ONLY FREEDOM we are promised is IN CHRIST alone. There is no freedom in Calvinism, but only BONDAGE to an evil man's doctrine.

We're set free from SIN,(Idolatry being one!) the LAW of sin and DEATH. Only Jesus Christ can set you FREE.

Yet MarkV, believes he set his wife FREE!! So she wasn't saved when you married her?

Now MarkV is saying HE saved his wife! What a contradiction!
---kathr4453 on 9/9/09

And enough has been given to prove you have misintepreted scripture.
I have not called you anything. I said your doctrine is false. It doesn't line up with God's word.Giving 2 or 3 sripture is not the same as giving entire chapters that prove you are wrong.
Scripture is witness to other scripture. I have given you that.
We are called to speak the truth.
And I have.
You deny God's power to call sinners to repentance THROUGH CHRIST and HIS WORD.
That is false and a gross sin.
I pray you repent and change your doctrine to line up with what God says and NOT what Calvin says.
I thank you for your prayers and I know what God's word says.
God bless you brother.
---miche3754 on 9/8/09

Miche, Enough Scripture and Truth has been given to you. I do have power within me to not allow your accusations to bring sin to me. No matter what you call me or say about me, greater is He who is in me then he who is in the world.
Live the life your heart desires, and do what you want. Peace I leave you, have a great day in the Lord.
---MarkV. on 9/8/09

Im rejecting YOUR interpetation of it.
The verses you provide arent in their proper Context.
I have looked at those verses and studied them.
You must look at scripture as a whole NOT as cherry picking.
God sent Jesus to save those who would believe God.
Believing comes first, then Faith.
If you believe that God sent Jesus to save you, repent for the kingdom is at hand, Jesus helps you stand, and God purges out the bad things that made you a sinner.
It isn't an overnight transformation. All God asks is that you believe. even in this, we have a choice. To believe or not.
Everyday, we have a choice to walk in the flesh(our will) or the Spirit(God's will).
---miche3754 on 9/8/09

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Markv, cont..

Did you believe first or did you have faith first?
Jesus asking us to believe
Mark 1:15, 5:36, 9:23-24, 16:16
Luke 1:45
John 1:7,12, 2:11, 2:22-23, 3:15-18, 3:36, 4:39, 4:41
He says some hear, but won't believe
Matt 21:25,32
Mark 11:31, 16:11
Luke 1:20, says what will happen to those who won't believe.
Luke 20:5,24:11
JOhn 5:38, says his word doesn't abide BECAUSE they didn't believe.
John 8:24, Jesus says there is a choice.
Believe and live, believe NOT and die in your sins.
Acts 19:2
Have you received the HS since you believed?
Believing comes first, Markv. we do have a choice.
God set before us life and death. Once we hear the truth, we must choose. God or death.
---miche3754 on 9/8/09

Miche 2 continue:
You said Jesus said, choose who you will follow, and only those who have genuine faith, that God gave them will answer His call. As you will make in the matters of faith. Choose what you will believe, but you will choose Truth only if God has given you faith to believe the Truth. Without it, you will continue to reject the Word of God.
Let me also say, that this will be my last answers to you. I have given you enough of the Truth about this topic of God. I still love you, and will not say good luck in the future because Christians do not believe in Luck so I wish you well in your search for the Truth. You are seeking which is great because the lost do not seek God.
---MarkV. on 9/6/09

Miche, I never berated my wife. I showed her Scripture as I have shown you, and she was set free. You refuse to listen, she did too until she put her bias away and her pride for I know it was hard for her and hard for anyone to admit they have been wrong for years. Just like you are and it will be hard for you to also admit you are wrong when you are looking at God's word right in front of you.
Here is the Truth, maybe God does not want you to know the Truth, and wanted her to know it. So it is left up to you. You do have a choice, and whatever choice you make will be what God already knew you would make. He does not force you. With your decision you will only complete the decree He set up for you from the foundation of the world.
---MarkV. on 9/6/09

The way you have interpreted scripture is absolutely wrong.
You say it is for my edification but you are wrong! It is not for my edification. It is for you to say you are roght and I am wrong. Just like you berated your wife until she thought like you. That is not how God's word works. If you have to force, then it is not truth.
God says- Choose this day whom you will serve.
I set before you life and death CHOOSE.
I am done with you because you greive the Holy Spirit with your falsehoods so do not speak to me again. I will pray God opens your eyes.
---miche3754 on 9/6/09

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Miche 2 continue,
every time I answer you it is for your edification. So that you can look at God's Word clearly but no matter how I quote the Word you reject it. In all your statements concerning free will of man, and how man alone comes to Christ, you get closer to 'blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.' Here is why Miche, because it is the Holy Spirit who testifies of Christ and makes His truth known to us. What you are suggesting is, that man, by himself, with his own free will testifies of Christ without the Spirit of Truth. How else in your opinion can He trust in Christ if the Holy Spirit doesn't testify of Christ making His Truth known to us? The worse part is that you know the Truth and reject it. Here is how Jesus put it,
---MarkV. on 9/6/09

Miche, 3 continue:
Jesus says, "But when the Helper comes whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me."
It is the Spirit who has to come to all unbelievers and makes the Truth known to all who are lost, Just as He did with Saul. You see Miche, no forgiveness is possible for those who know the Truth and reject the Truth, because they reject the fullest possible revelation. Yet someone who never exposed to Christ's divine power and presence might reject Him in ignorance and be forgiven, assuming the unbelief gives way to genuine repentance
---MarkV. on 9/6/09

Miche, it's funny you would ask for what you did. God never mentions anywhere that people have free will to come to Him. Not one passage and yet you fight for free will everyday. In fact the whole Bible is about God and what He wants and gets. How man rebells against Him and how He takes matter into His own hands.
What you do is tie His hands, bring Him down from His Throne as Ruler of all things, make Him lower then man to the point where He is captive to man's decisions. What you suggest is that He is a loser every time people reject Him and Satan a winner.
The worse part is not that you don't understand, it is that you preach against the Sovereign right of God to do what He so desires with His creation.
---MarkV. on 9/6/09

Markv, not one time have you ever given me scripture that says God did not give us freewill.
I have given you several scripture and so have others.
How many times does God say Choose?
How many times did Jesus say he came to save sinners not the righteous? Several.
How many times does Jesus say Believe?
Several. Everything Ive said to you lines up with Gods word. Its sad that you are blind to the truth because you choose to believe a man made doctrine rather than God. God does give a choice to believe Christ is his son and came to save us.
It all starts with believing. Once you believe, God takes it from there, if you let him. Its sad that you believe God made some destined for hell when he didn't.
---miche3754 on 9/5/09

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By the way Markv,
The verses you present to me, you use way out of context.
Like the last one. It does not say man has no choice.
It says how man is without Christ.
No where in the bible does it say that man can't hear God. It says man WON"T hear God.
Won't means to have a choice to hear.
The problem with sinners is they don't believe what they hear.
That is where the choice lies, brother. Do you believe what you are hearing?
Christ himself said it. Just believe.
When you give me scripture I turn and tell you what it really means in its context. YOu on the other hand try to use scripture to prove you are right BUT you use scripture way out of its context to do. That is NOT rightly dividing God's words of truth.
---miche3754 on 9/5/09


Brother, The Lord's Thoughts are not man's thoughts, nor are man's ways His Ways.The darkened understanding of man's heart & the vanity of his mind, are unable to trust in & be guided by the Righteousness of God's Higher Thoughts & Ways.

Alan, Look closely at your last two post, and realize your minds THOUGHT patterns(of OURS & HUMAN) and the WAY you're trusting in & being guided by them.

You've asked 'Why God gave man the definitions? Man could receive nothing else.

Alan read Eph.4:17-24.

The torment of wondering shall cease as the Spirit of Truth Guides us into "All Truths" : putting off the non-perfect mind set of knowledge found in the 'Old Man's' definitions.
---Shawn.M.T on 9/5/09

Miche, My pastor did tell me God loved everyone. For even the wicked many times live better then any of us. He doesn't love what they do. The rain also falls on the unrighteous. They enjoy sin and God does not stop them. God knows they are responsible for what they do. Just because they were born under sin, didn't mean they had to sin. They could come to Christ if they wanted, but they don't. For Scripture says, "None is righteous, no, not one, no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong, no one does good, not even one" I present you everyday with the Word of God and you continue to reject it. You present nothing from God only your opinions.
---MarkV. on 9/5/09

What your pastor should have told you is this..
God loves ALL of mankind. We are his Creation. He breathed his breath into All OF US.
God loves us so much that he sent his son to reconcile all of us back to him. Those that are chose are IDENTIFIED through Christ.
So, when God says predestined and for knew, that means he knew he would send Christ to save fallen man. He knew he would save the ones who believe HE sent Christ to save us. Christ chooses those who believe.
It all starts with believing. Faith comes FROM hearing and believing the Word of God.
All God ever asks is for us to Believe. THe seed of HIS word is planted when we hear HIS truth. Its our choice to let it grow or let it die. To believe or not to believe.
---miche3754 on 9/5/09

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Mar (and Shawn) At last you have understood what I was saying ... that in our definitions, it is not just.

I winder then why God gave us the definition?
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/5/09

"Does a person have the power to refuse God's invitation of salvation?" Yes.
Man is given a choice, no one is forced, as illustrated in the parable Jesus gave in Mat.22:1-14 concerning the Kingdom of God.
---josef on 9/5/09

Miche, 3 continue:
So I began to look and read every detail of Scripture and found many passages that spoke about how God had chosen me, not me chosen him. I ask my pastor and he didn't know how to answer me since he preached free will. Some time later a sister presented to me the studies on the Sovereignty of God so that I would learn about God and she mentioned for me to study the Nature and attributes of God first if I wanted to be approve. She said to me that no matter what I think or believe a passage says, it cannot ever go against the nature or attributes of God, for God never changes. That is when I realized that it was God all alone who came into my life, changed my heart, and gave me faith to believe.
---MarkV. on 9/4/09

Faith comes from believing.
peoples problem is they don't accept and believe.
The Jews didn't believe
John 3:16
Who ever believes shall not perish.
It isn't because they can't hear, its because they don't believe.
Faith comes from believing in things not seen.
Its their choice to believe.
Ive seen many who were convicted of their sins by the Holy Ghost, but they didn't confess. They didn't believe.
Belief is a choice. God does not make us believe, He gives us the choice. If we are condemned to hell its our own fault for not listening, obeying and believing. If we are saved, its because we believe Christ and God, not man. by belief in Christ we are saved!
---miche3754 on 9/4/09

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Also, You have to believe Christ to have faith.
NOT faith to believe.
Christ says many many times, just believe!
If you don't believe, you don't have faith.
If you believe, you have faith.
Christ tells us to start by believing he is telling the truth.
Then come the faith that He will sustain us through it all. That he makes better descisions for our lives than we do.
Jesus asks us to trust him. This trust is by believing what he is saying to us is truth.
Example, God is not like man. God will not does not lie. This is how we know we can believe and trust God. Belief and trust turns into faith!
---miche3754 on 9/4/09

Miche, I will answer in three parts. First, I know I speak to you strongly many times but let me say I'll alway love you. Don't forget that.
Miche, I also made a confession of faith to Christ after I had heard the Truth of the Gospel for weeks just as you did. You see Miche, you and I were able to hear it, understand it, and believe it. Many others were not. Oh, they heard it and rejected it because they did not have faith. Genuine faith that comes from God. So they just let it go in one ear and out the other. Their hearts had not been changed. When I heard the Truth, God had already prepared me by bringing me to life by His Spirit. Though at the time I did not know that. I didn't know either that God had already prepared many others
---MarkV. on 9/4/09

Miche 2 continue:
just like me from other area's of the Bay Area. God also made sure we would all be at the same place at the same time. It was an Easter Play that is done every year. I was invited by my neighbors who had spoken the Truth to me for weeks. They told me about the play and that night when I saw the hammer strike the nails into Jesus hands, my heart broke and I cried when I realize the price He had paid for my sins. That night I confessed Christ as my Savior. So did many others who were there. It wasn't unti two year later that I wondered why I came and other's didn't. What did I have that others did not have? Many are smarter then others but it could not be that. It was faith to believe in Christ.
---MarkV. on 9/4/09

--Alan: **Such treatment does not fall within any HUMAN DEFINITION of "just punishment"--alan 9/3/09**

Brother, In your own words above, lies the veil that keeps your eyes from seeing, ears from hearing & mind from understanding the Truth before you!

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?".....and to proclaim them as 'Justly So', despite what critics wish to define it as!!!!

Anyone who tries to quantify the Justness of the Lord's Truth according to the 'Time/Space' definitions of man, is only going to torment themselves with endless questions, the answers of which they'll be unable receive.
---Shawn.M.T on 9/4/09

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Alan, by God's definition, anything He does is just and has a just purpose. That we as finite creatures cannot possibly see the things that God has to deal with to make all things just. In the what is called the slaughter of the Canaanites by God's command at first looks to the finite eye is wrong. Women and children who never did anything to anyone were slaughtered. Now think, there were thousands. Heck, even the cattle were slain.
You have these people like you and me who also had freedom. Yet God saw that it was a just cause to exterminate them. So your definition of what is just and what is not, is not the same with God. He looks at the whole picture, you and I only see such a small part.
---MarkV. on 9/4/09

We have discussed Predestination enough by now to know that we hold different views which are unlikely to change.

The point I am making here is a bit different ... it is to do with the words "just punishment"

If I am punished because I have blue eyes & not brown, would that be just? I can't change the colour of my eyes and did not choose the colour in the first place.

The distionary definition would not allow that that is "just punishment"

Nor can it allow that God "punishng" people for behaving as he made them (through His planned Fall) is just.

Unless of course His definition of the words differ from the definition He has given us.

(Actually I do have brown eyes)
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/3/09

Mark ... I have said now many times that God has the right to do whatever He wants. If He makes us behave in a certain way, and then destroy us because we have behaved in that way, that is His right.

He may even do it. You beleive He does.

But such treatment does not fall within any human definition of "just punishment"

How can it be "just" to "punish" anyone for behaving in exactly the way that you demand, or make them behave?

But perhaps God has a unique definition those two words, which in His wisdom He has not seen fit to disclose to the compilers of our human dictionaries.
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/3/09

Alan, you keep saying my reasoning. It is the Bible that I present to you. Yet you still reject the word of God. You say what He is saying is not just by your definition. I don't believe your definition holds any water.
"it was said to her "the older shall serve the younger." As it is written, Jacob I have love, but Esau I have hated" Romans 9:12 God says this words before the two were even born. And just in case anyone disagree's with His definition of what is right as you disagree, He says, What shall we say then? Is there unrigheousness with God? Certainly not. For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
---MarkV. on 9/3/09

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Alan 2 continue:
I am giving you the word of God Alan. Not my definition of what God should do but what He has done. And verse 16 explains what He has just said about what is righteous,
"So then it is not of him who wills, (this are the people you say have free will) nor of him who runs, (this are people who work for their salvation) But of God who shows mercy. And He gives another example, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth" He was talking about how He raised Pharoah. Pharoah never knew he was been set-up. Through that raising of Pharoah many suffered and died, yet it had a purpose for God.
---MarkV. on 9/3/09

What I want to know is if this is the case MarkV, how did you get saved?
You have admitted that all of us are born into sin and want to commit sin.
How is it God saved you then?

I know that I heard God's word, believed it to be true(still believe), and repented when I was told by God's word that I was sinful and needed to repent to receive everlasting life.
At that point I gave all to God. Before that, I was as sinful as sinful could get.
What about you, Markv, what is your story?
---miche3754 on 9/3/09

Mark ... That,s all very well, but you yourslef and Calvin say that it is all foreordained (and that is not fore-known, but fore-decided by God) and so the unfortunate have no choice but to sin, and not to repent.

"How can he come to God when he hates Him?" He can't of course, folowing your reasoning, but it is God who has made him thus.

How can he be punished by God justly by God when it is God who has created him to hate Him? Would God do that?? I suspect not, for it is not just by tyhe definition of "just" that God has given us.
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/3/09

Alan 2: Continue:
Fallen man will is not free but inslave to sin. He can act freely all he wants but freely to sin even more then he already does. Jesus said, "This is the judgment, that light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil" John 3:19, and again, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye may have life" John 5:40. Man's ruin lies mainly in his own perverse will." He cannot come because he will not. You say he comes with his own free will, and Jesus said they don't come. How can he come to God when he hates Him? How can he repent when he loves sin. He is free and not in chains but cannot originate the love of God in his heart.
---MarkV. on 9/3/09

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Mark ... You say :"the person does not have to sin or is never compelled to sin, but sins freely and delights in it. His dispositions and desires are so inclined, that he acts knowingly and willingly from the desires of his heart"

Mark ... That says basically that we have FreeWill to be like that ... and yet you deny we have freewill!!

And Calvin, whose theology you have praised and said we should study, says that God creates people to be destroyed. "For they are not all created with a similar destiny, but eternal life is fore-ordained (NB, not 'fore-known') for some, and eternal damnation for others.
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/3/09

Alan, I had answered you a second response which was not posted in which I explained fallen man condition.
Fallen man is under the curse of God. All those born after Adam are born with a sin nature. Yet, the person does not have to sin or is never compelled to sin, but sins freely and delights in it. His dispositions and desires are so inclined, that he acts knowingly and willingly from the desires of his heart. Paul stated it this way in 2 Cor. 4:3,4,
" And if our Gospel is veiled it is veiled to them that perish, in whom the god of this world (by which he means the Devil) hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Gospel of glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them"
---MarkV. on 9/3/09

But surely God gave us these words to use, so our definition is His? IN which case, He can't justly punish peiple for behaving as He has made them behave

Amen contradicts EVERY teaching in Gods Holy Word

reasoning of men has led an entire RELIGIOUS SECT to see God as a Puppet Master ...and they are simply puppets which MOCKS Christ as a "savior" ...if "saved" are "really pre-saved" then Christ as a "savior is worthless HOLLOW exercise

this SECT dupes MANY into belief of a "god" who is an EVIL sadistic monster and humans are nothing more than ITS playthings
---Rhonda on 9/2/09

Perhaps I can explain further my comment that it can't be called "just punishment"?

Let's say, I was God (I don't mean to be blasphemous)

I make millions of people, and give them different names ... some I call Mark, some Jerry, some Mike, some Mima, some Glenn, some Donna & so on.

Then I decide I want just a few to live with me in my palace. I select all those with the name Mark.

The others, I destroy. Now, as God, that of course is within my right.

But would you say that I was justly punishing all those others for having the wrong name?

So it is if we say God justly punishes those whom He has made evil, and whom He keeps evil and unrepentant.
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/2/09

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Mark ... You've said that God is in control of everything ... and decides everything ... that means He controls our every action.

Thus He makes people to be evil, and He prevents them from being saved (or witholhd the opportunity.

As I say, maybe this is how He works, and maybe He damns forever those whom He choses to remain in that unsaved state.

But how can it be called "just punishment" It is not just to punish sokmeone for behaving as you demand,

Unless God's definition of the word "just" is not the same as ours!

But surely God gave us these words to use, so our definition is His? IN which case, He can't justly punish peiple for behaving as He has made them behave
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/2/09

The word refuse has funny connotations. In China teaching English I was told by a student "I got up late this morning and I refused breakfast". Is that correct: she asked . While puzzled at first my answer was, for something to be refused it must first be offered. Question--- is everyone offered salvation? I desperately want to say yes, but I'm reminded that God hated Esau before he was born, that when the 12 disciples were chosen Jesus himself announced that one of them was a devil!!
I am looking forward to your comments.
---mima on 9/2/09

Did God know people would sin when He made the plan? Of course, He is God. The fall had to be in His plan since He knows everything, past, present and future. Is all mankind sinful? Yes, every decendant of Adam is born under sin...Did He know He was going to? Yes, How do we know? Because we are told that Christ was "foreknown indeed (as a sacrifice for sin) before the foundation of the world" 1 Peter 1:20.
Thats why the writer of Hebrews refers to "the blood of an eternal covenant"
---MarkV. on 9/2/09
This I agree with!
Our difference is in How God saves and freewill. Brother, God did not make man as robots. Forced love, is not love at all.
How can you believe God forces anyone to love him when he doesn't?
---miche3754 on 9/2/09

Alan, let me first thank you for answering the way you did. Let's forget Calvin for now. Let's look at the God of the Bible. Did God know people would sin when He made the plan? Of course, He is God. The fall had to be in His plan since He knows everything, past, present and future. Is all mankind sinful? Yes, every decendant of Adam is born under sin. Does God know this? Yes, He put the curse Himself. Did He know He was going to? Yes, How do we know? Because we are told that Christ was "foreknown indeed (as a sacrifice for sin) before the foundation of the world" 1 Peter 1:20.
Thats why the writer of Hebrews refers to "the blood of an eternal covenant"
---MarkV. on 9/2/09

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You do understand that Paul is addressing Christians in that teaching NOT sinners.
Again you have your doctrine all mixed up.
You have listened to the teachings of man instead of the teachin of God.
It is those who are in Christ that are predestined. God has given all power to him.
Good scripture but if its how you explain it then why is it people get saved everyday?
They get it because they hear the WORD and believe!
If God has already chosen, then why would he have sent Jesus?
He sent his WORD here to save. Only way it gets out is 5 ministries gifts.
If God has chosen, why do we need the 5 ministries gifts?
Brother, you have your doctrine wrong.
---miche3754 on 9/2/09

also, How does God convict our hearts?
By hearing HIS WORD of TRUTH!
Then, we do have a choice.
We can accept that truth or turn away from it. "Choose this day whom you will serve!"
"I set before you life and death, CHOOSE life!"
These are God words.
WHat you have to understand is this.
God provides the choices for man, but allows man to choose. This is his ulimate sovereignty and proof that he is God - BECAUSE GOD PROVIDES THE CHOICE and allows man to make it. Knowing the choice and the end of what ever choice we make. Tht is God.
---miche3754 on 9/2/09

"This total inability, however, arises not merely from a perverted moral nature, but also from ignorance."
Loraine Boettner

Fair to say, "if you fail in one point, you failed all", to what percent ignorance?
Paul, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

How about Jesus speaking to the average man, "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"

Conclusion, even the proponents of Total Inability don't believe it themselves.
---Nana on 9/2/09

Mark ... No, I am not saying that God is not just, I am saying that your description of how how He operates would, if it were true, make him unjust.

Because you, and Calvin, say that He decides EVERYTHING. He planned the fall, that all mankind is sinful, who will be sent to eternal damnation, that these people will remain wicked, and will have no opportunity of repentance.

Now, God of course has the right to behave like that, but I don't think He does. And if He does, I don't think He would be so dishonest to say that He was being just... Unless His definition of "just" is far removed from human understanding of the word.

How can God "justly" punish someone for behaving exactly as He makes them behave?
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/1/09

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Miche, the key word is "God". God gave us eternal life, His Spirit when He brought us to a spiritual awakening. Without Him coming and calling us and giving us life, we would still be enslave to sin, and by nature children of wrath.
Was the gospel send out to the world? It was, and still is. Does God stop anyone from coming to Him? No. Will they come? No. Why don't they come? "And this is the judgment, that light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather then the light, for their works were evil" John 3:19. And again He says, "Ye will not come to Me, that you may have life" John 5:40. You say, Jesus is wrong, people do come to Him on their own free will. He says they don't.
---MarkV. on 9/1/09

Miche, 2 continue:
Help enough is given if he were only willing, there is that word again, "will" willing to accept it. Paul tells us, "The carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be." So they that are in the flesh cannot please God" Roman 8:7. Man is a free agent but he cannot originate the love of God in his heart. His will is free in the sense that it is not controlled by any force outside of himself. How can he repent of his sin when he loves it? How can he come to God when he hates Him? This is his inability. You have got to believe this truths because it is Scriptural and all I give is Scriptural and you cannot hide from the Truth.
---MarkV. on 9/1/09

We must understand that all of us were damned until we came to Christ through God's word.
We were told we needed to repent,we did, we believed, then we received the Holy Ghost.
Until people believe we are telling the truth, they will continue to deny God.
Is is funny how if you ask most people, they will say they believe their is a God, but they won't serve him because they are o busy enjoing their flesh to give up and let God show them what is best for them.
---miche3754 on 9/1/09

Alan 2:
Did you find one word concerning free will in the passage? No. Why? Because it is God who has chosen us. And why did He do that? "According to the good pleasure of His will"Eph. 1:4-6 and again in verse 9, "having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself" Did He mention anywhere about free will? No. Why did He decide to show the mysteries to us and not the lost? "According to His good pleasure" God has a purpose Alan from the beginning, and it will be as He calls it. You don't like it, but He does not work His plan to your liking. I would suggest you study more the word of God to know what is His will not yours.
---MarkV. on 9/1/09

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Miche, you said
"Repentance is an action done by us"
It is an action done by us, but we make that action only because God has convicted our hearts to grant us that repentance. Without that conviction you would never feel you had sinned against God. "...God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after been captured by him to do his will." 1 Tim. 2:25,26. The lost who had a free choice were doing the will of the devil who had them captured. And what did God do? He granted them repentance so that they could come to know the Truth. They had no way of escaping without God first coming to them.
---MarkV. on 9/1/09

The key words in that scripture is "IN HIM".
God knew that he would have to send his son to reconcile the world back to him.
Those who abide in Christ are chosen. Its Christ who is chosen before the foundation of the world, not us.
All of us are born into sin.
When God says predestined IN HIM, or chosen IN HIM, he doesn't not mean any of us are these. He means those who choose to repent, believe accept and obey God and that Christ died and arose for us are predestined/chosen.
We are dead until we repent, believe, accept, obey God through Christ. Thats truth. If we didn't have to do anything, then why does Christ say "REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!" Repentance is an action done by us.
---miche3754 on 9/1/09

Alan, there you go again calling God unjust. you say you don't say that but you do.
"Now, if God created some for eternal damnation, how can that be called "just punishment"?
That is after He called you and saved you. It was not good enough in your opinion, Why? You tell me why He has to save everyone to be just?
What Calvin stated is true. Just listen to God's words, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestine us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved"
---MarkV. on 9/1/09

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So, then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Understandest thou what thou readest?
---TheSeg on 8/31/09

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According to Webster 11's New Riverside University Dictionary, A Christian is "a believer in Christianity, of, pertaining to, or professing belief in Christianity, relating to Christianity or its adherents". If this definition alone were true, then Satan the devil is a Christian, because we read in James 2:19, "Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well! The devil also believe, and tremble". Does Satan the devil believe in Jesus Christ? Indeed he does, so much that he trembles at the thought! But that does not make him a Christian....Bible definition of a Christian: Roman 8:9, Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His".
---catherine on 8/31/09

\\Jesus said it. "I chosed you, you did not choose me".\\

Catherine, this is not talking about salvation, but about the call to ministry.

About salvation, Jesus said in various ways, "Whosoever will, let him come."

\\Calvin says "No"\\

This isn't the only thing Jean Chauvin (to give him his real name) is wrong about.
---Cluny on 8/31/09

Catherine -- Jhn 15:16 Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit.

If God "chooses" some, it's logical that he may not "choose" others.
Who are we, to tell God what is "fair"?
And who are we, to pat ourselves on the back because WE have chosen the Savior?

There are some people who never have an interest in the Gospel, their hearts are not moved not matter what. In effect they reject Him....but perhaps instead, God actually did not "choose" them!

Our job is to present the Gospel everywhere so that those whom God "chooses" will understand what He has done for them and move forwad in Him.
---Donna66 on 8/31/09

Catherine ... Presumably you mean "accept" and not "except"?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/31/09

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This is a question of which I have often wondered about! however, God knows the ones who will except heaven over hell. Remember, Jesus said it. "I chosed you, you did not choose me". And somewhere else in there Jesus said, "He knew who would except Him before the creation of this world". He knew....Also, the Blood is so powerful.I know!
---catherine on 8/31/09

No we can't lose our salvation because the first resurrection is our salvatin, so once your in Gods Kingdom as a spirit being, you cannot lose your salvation. If you stop obeyng God before the 1st resurrection, and you do not repent, you will lose out on an eternal salvation, yes.
---John_Didmus on 8/31/09

God gives everyone a free will.

In Deuteronomy He says, "Today I set before you life and death, choose life." But you still have a free will to CHOOSE.
---anon on 8/31/09

Calvin says "No" This is what he wrote

"God has determined in Himself what He would have become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny, but eternal life is fore-ordained (NB, not 'fore-known') for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death"

Now, if God created some for eternal damnation, how can that be called "just punishment"?

And if God does not give us FreeWill, and we behave exactly as He made us, why would He say to the saved "Well done thou good and faithful servant"?

So I say "Yes"
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/31/09

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This is a really good question.
I am wondering it myself.
Just to add, why do so many doctrines teach that man can't deny God's calling?
If that weren't possible then what is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
---miche3754 on 8/31/09

Hell is filled with people who did that very thing.
---Cluny on 8/31/09

God's Will for All people to come to Him. Even though, He gave us a choice to choose between, to be with Him in Heaven or to send yourself to spend eternity in hell. There is NO, one foot in Heaven & one foot in hell. You canNot serve 2 masters.
---Lawrence on 8/31/09

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