The main problem today is the vast amount of young men that are pastors. The word elder is synonymous with pastor, and is not limited to age of coarse, but one who has a great knowledge and experience in service and standing with God and men. Most have had no mentorship as Timothy to prepare them, by seeing Pauls example. Education is wonderful and important but if you are young, though you may have a lot of knowledge of scripture, your faith must be proven, which is over time. The fact that this man considers this of himself says a lot of his character and understanding of the seriousness of this gift within the body of Christ Jesus
---willa5568 on 6/14/11|
I'll go a step futher , scripture says every believer is within the preisthood ,we are all ministers of the gospel . The priesthood wasnt abolished , the layity was . We all are accoutable for the light in us and shoul not hide it .
---Chance_Perkins on 6/14/11|
Robyn-- True. But to avoid misunderstanding (perhaps by a new Christian) Anything your pastor says about you to God will not affect God's judgement of YOU. God Knows you much better than the pastor. But the pastor, having been given the Holy responsibility to oversee your Christian growth, may be found lacking by the Almighty.
A few weeks in church is not enough to make this plain to people.They may, or may not,
discover this truth in the course of their Bible study, but many pastors don't make a point of explaining this to church members.
---Donna66 on 1/22/11|
Don--- your pastor may be saying that as long as the church is solvent, he will take it as a sign that God desires the church to remain open.
However, since he teaches compulsory tithing, I wonder what he will say if the church goes into the red. Will he take it guidance from the Lord....or will blame his congregation and chasten them for a lack of faithfulness?
My experience tells me it is almost certain to be the latter!
---Donna66 on 1/22/11|
The pastor is right on. You should know this yourself. When,where and how do you people study the bible? Anyone who has been in church past a few weeks, should know this.This is the purpose of a pastor/leader of the church. He/she is responsible for your soul. So don't get it twisted like a lot of people do and give pastors more power than they should have over others.A pastor is still a servant just like we are in the church. We should respect his position but he/she is still a man/woman with faults and failings. He/she is not a God. I think most people forget this.
---Robyn on 1/22/11|
Being a pastor is a profession complete with diplomas and credentials from this or that religious cemetery. To find a man whom God has chosen for a place and time is so rare, as to be almost non-existent. I heard a pastor, a generally good man, who in his estimation tries to follow God, say, as long as the bills are paid, this church will keep on going, but when the bills cannot be paid, it is time to close the doors. This man teaches compulsory tithing. This is the best of the churches in my town.
---Don on 11/13/10|
I meant to say 'Rob' instead of 'Rod'. Sorry
---Anne on 10/18/09|
Rod~ Thank you for those words.
Most Excellent Way~ I am female, and if I could be a preacher I would most definitely include fire and brimstone in my teachings, because that is part of what the Bible teaches. I just don't believe the Bible really teaches that women are to be pastors.
---Anne on 10/18/09|
I don't believe that 'building attendance' is necessary at all, BUT, there is definitely a difference in what males are likely to preach and what a female would preach.
BASICALLY, male pastors preach 'fire and brimstone' FEAR. Females are more familiar with love and humility to a loving father figure (this is what God is). That may sound sexist, but...
..........GOD IS LOVE.
Any minister who preaches the "fear of God" misleads the congregation and will give account for that like the scribes and pharisees...
"you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves".
"and their fear of me is a commandment of man".
---more_excellent_way on 10/18/09|
Anne, I am a man and I must say AMEN to what you wrote about 90+% of men out there should not be Pastors. Most of the Men I have come across who say they are Pastors are self centered and full of greed. It is very seldom I come across a man who is truely concerned with sharing the truth of God's Word, even if it means there will be a very small congregation.
From my own personal experience I have seen and also learned that if a congregation teaches the Word of God as it is written, it probably will be a very small congregation, 2 Timothy 4:3-4.
---Rob on 10/17/09|
Anne, I appreciate your attitude and sincerity. However, there is one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ. May I humbly suggest that tradition has developed the role of "pastor."
There are overseers, but the body is responsibly for one another, not a single pastor. The problem with the "pastorate" is that it is trying to fulfill a position that only Christ can fill. We need to rely on Christ, not on a pastor.
Another problem with a "pastor" is that when there is one, they are ususally not able to become one of the "one another," because they believe they are supposed to have all the answers.
---Rod4Him on 10/17/09|
Do not DARE to become a pastor, UNLESS your sincere undying motive and devotion is to IMMERSE yourself in God's Holy Word, and you had better know His word even if it causes your eyes to fail. This is not a job for the weak. This is the most responsible job in the world, since you are accountable for the souls of men. Doctors are only responsible for fleshly bodies, but pastors are responsible for souls.
I would say 90+% of men out there should NOT, NOT, NOT be pastors!!!!!! Please heed.
---Anne on 10/17/09|
This is very true. But what I find fascinating and unbelievable is: how little christians know about the bible and/or the Word of God. This is why we as christians are warned to study our bible for ourselves. This is why the catholic church will have so much to give an account for on that day. They teach people so many lies and untruths. This is falsely leading a lot of people(multitudes) astray from the true word of God.
Preachers/pastors will be held accountable also. This is why we should not be in a hurry to jump up full of pride and want to be pastors,teachers and other leaders in the church without a true calling or anointing from God. A lot is expected of a leader and anyone who serves God people.
---Robyn on 10/15/09|
This weekend my wife heard a pastor say that he will be required to give an account of you (if you are his parishioner) when he gets to heaven. What is your opinion of this statement?
Any Pastor that would not give the verse or verses he is taking this from....needs to be asked....if you don't understand.
If sheeple learn what they do....they might not have a job. Or authority some crave more than Gold.
Read yourself...as fast as you can.
Find something that just doesn't connect or make sense? Find witness scriptures verifying it.
Sheep....want to know more about sheep? Than your preacher? Easy. Word is in concordance/Strongs 189 times. Shepherd 74 times.
---Trav on 10/15/09|
What happens if a pastor gives a false message?
How are those judged who accept the false message?
How will he himself be judged?
Is there a different degree of culpability, of punishment?
Going to the original question, I don't think the pastor will be required to report about the members of his flock. Whether he has been a good poor or indiufferent pastor, he will not be able to sayt anyuthing of his "flock" that the Lord does not already know.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/12/09|
Mima, concerning deceptive pastors, It is written: "Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I [am] against the shepherds, and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock, neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more, for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them." Eze 34:10
However this next verse, although spoken directly to Ezekiel, is applicable to all of His chosen. "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die, and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at thine hand." Eze 3:18
---josef on 10/12/09|
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alan, I live in Northern Californa in the foothills of the Sierras near Yosemite National Park.
I thought you may be in Ukraine also, but something was said that made me think differently.
---Rod4Him on 10/11/09|
WE do seem to be on the same page.
Yes, I am Alan from the UK. (Some time ago someone thought it must be the Ukraine!)
I'm in the South West, Bristol. And you?
---alan7566_of_uk on 10/11/09|
alan, I meant to include I Corin. 12. I was going on memory and forgot 12.
Actually, I disagree with a disciplinarian heirarchy. The discipline, as I see it, should happen as a body and not with a single person.
I hope we are on the same page. Great discussion. I have again been reminded to not prejudge and to define words and meanings.
BTW, are you in UK?
---Rod4Him on 10/11/09|
Rod4Him You seem to be saying exactly the same as me, except that you appear to see the need for a disciplinarian heirarchy.
I'd rather go for the whole of what Paul says in Corinthians, including Chapter 12
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/11/09|
alan, exactly, that's why Jesus Christ is the head of the church. The Corinthian church had disorder also, but they were still a type of co-operative, they needed to do it right, not change to a pastor system.
I Corinthians 13 and 14 talks about order in the church. Do we believe Jesus Christ is alive and well and can lead the church? or do we pay lip service and organize a local church the same way any other organization operates their institution.
The church should have overseers, monitoring, seeing that the church functions, along with the people doing the work of the ministry. "One another" is mentioned 58 times in the NT, and there is additional phraseology that has the same idea.
---Rod4Him on 10/11/09|
Rod4Him ... We have a co=operative store near here.
When we arrived several years ago, all the workers were qual, no-one was boss, and the place was an absolute mess.
Now, there are those who have the tasl of checking what new stock they need, others make sure it is kept tidy, others that the shelves are kept full, others take off fruit and veg which have reached their sell-by date or condition, others look after customers at the tills, and others tell us wher to find things.
Someone probably concentrates on training the staff.
Eveyone is much happier now ... staff and customers.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/10/09|
alan...something I thought about. The church, which is the body of Christ, is supposed to be a co-operative. That is exactly my perspective. When a person assumes leadership/pastor in the body of Christ, they hinder the body from functioning. Overseers plural are lowkey facilitators. Christ is the head.
BTW, if you are interested in my background, I have worked in low positions, and I have worked where I had authority over 300 union workers. However, I didn't lord it over them. Even though, as you said, some of them were outspoken against authority.
---Rod4Him on 10/10/09|
I believe that part of the preacher statement is correct. If he stir the flock wrong, the flock that doesn't know the word. God said follow my word, not man. Preachers or not God. People tend to lose sight. The word, not mans word. The preacher should always teach this.
---Troyetta on 10/9/09|
alan, thanks for working on a definition. Maybe we need a little more work, so we are accurately communicating.
Are you saying that your definition of pastor and overseer is the same thing, both we authority and control?
I am defining an overseer as a function, something he does, but more of a facilitator than a control person, as you described "guide, mentor, protector, comforter, to those in their care," which I agree with.
However, the guy in charge of the building, is usually the pastor. What definition do you give to "charge?"
Thanks for the discussion.
---Rod4Him on 10/9/09|
Rod4Him ... I don,t know what your work history has been ... people in defferent jobs will have differing perceptions of authority.
The worker in a union may see authority as something to be opposed. A left-wing socila worker may see it as something which gets in the way of the rights of the feckless. As diligent worker might have found that those in authority abuse his willingness to work hard & honestly. A worker in a co-operative may see authority as uneccessary.
Overseer to me means authority & control.
Pastors, wherever they are in the structure should be a guide, mentor, protector, comforter, to those in their care
I would say the guy in charge of the building has authority to be administrator
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/9/09|
Sorry alan...you're right. That's what I get for reading too fast and assuming too much.
Continuing the discussion, I don't see overseers as authority as much as I see overseers as fulfilling a function. The overseers facilitate, guide, and help, but they are still responsible to submit to one another, the body. So, I suppose one could say, we are all authorities to one another, and we are all under submission to one another.
In America, "senior pastor" is used quite often of the person who is the final authority in the local church building.
If the "pastor" had authority, what do you suggest that authority entails?
---Rod4Him on 10/8/09|
Rod4Him I did not say 'flock'
I said 'what might wrongly be called his "flock"'
You suggest overseer instead of pastor. But that word shows authority, rather than care & guidance, so I don't think it appropriate.
I'm not sure why you mention senior pastors, but again, we all have worldly needs, and so do pastors, so perhaps someone looking after them could be called a senior pastor, even bishop. What's in a name?
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/8/09|
Rod4Him Anoint-consecration,devine election. Sorry I should've explained what anointing is not just what it means. A God appointed office. In Old Testament see Exodus 29:4-9 this shows the Consecration of the Priests,anointed with oil for their office. In that time only those who were called to the office of Prophet,Priest,or King(2Kings9:3)were anointed with oil and filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:1-39 shows believers in New Testament(now)can receive Holy Ghost,we no longer have to be anointed with oil outside,but are anointed from the inside out with the oil of the HG(my figurative example not Bibles but as used Isa 61:1-3 & Hebrews 1:9 oil speaks of gladness & joy). We are still to use Oil to anoint sick before pray,James 5:14.
---Darlene_1 on 10/8/09|
Alan..I think we agree more than we disagree.
I agree that God leads/directs people to all kinds of occupations, and I absolutely agree that we all have different gifts. As believers, these differing gifts and abilities, when used as part of the body of Christ, the church, should be helping one another grow in Christ. As we grow in Christ, we are better able to do whatever occupations we may have.
There are overseers in the body of Christ. However, there is no Biblical position of a senior pastor. Overseers or fellow believers should spot believers strengths.
Theres no Biblical such thing as a single person, pastor, having a flock. Christ has a flock. A person called to that isnt called to a Biblical concept.
---Rod4Him on 10/7/09|
Ezekiel, chapter 34
Jeremiah, chapter 23
Yes, they will have to give an account.
---Nana on 10/8/09|
Rod4Him ... I'm sure God has called, annointed folk who are working for Him in all sorts of fields ... particularly as (as you say) we are all called to be the priesthood, whatever our everyday work is.
But Paul did say that there are diffrent things we can do ... some ar eprophets, some administrators etc. So are called to study the Scriptures and teach others, others perhaps to listen, and put things into practice.
If I spent all my time studying the Bible ...I would not be able to visit the sick and clothe the naked and feed the hungry.
And the pastor maybe is the one who should keep an eye out for the welfare of what might wrongly be called his "flock" and to spot their strengths (gifts)
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/7/09|
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Hi alan, you are right. We need to define our terms. Special, the way I used it is a reference that God anointed/called/held in particular esteem a person called a "pastor."
You are also right that rabbis and teachers in the temple are not far different. However, that is my point. The tradition of a "pastor" came from that. In Christ, believers are the priesthood. Biblically, believers are not to call anyone, "Rabbi, teacher," for there is One Teacher.
This is not to say people in the position of "pastor" are bad people. No doubt some are sincere God fearing people, doing what they think is right.
---Rod4Him on 10/7/09|
Hi Darlene, one issue I have with the thinking that pastors are anointed and called, what does anointed and called mean? I am learning to define terms.
All believers are called of God, how is a pastor different? Some pastors may pray for Gods leading more, but praying more should be the normal believers experience. Do believers trust in an unknown (pastor praying more) for their direction? Again, this is my point that believers are trusting in the pastor rather than in Christ. The pastor sometimes (unknowingly) takes the place of Christ in the believers mind, although people may not realize it.
If one believes in a pastors anointing/calling, how is one to know the good one from the poor one?
---Rod4Him on 10/7/09|
Belief a Pastor is called by God,is common knowledge in older generations,and I dare say the best Pastors are still called by God to be Pastors. For those Pastors who are called of God are also anointed by God for that position. A God called and anointed Pastor is better than one who isn't. For one thing they probably pray for God's leading more. Perhaps that is the difference in modern religion,seems some people are satisfied with a watered down version of the real thing,but thats not to say its their fault. It's what they have heard. Preachers who go to College to be educated to preach. Preachers who get their sermons from a book,boy was I shocked to find there are such sermon books used,instead of the preacher going to God for the sermons.
---Darlene_1 on 10/7/09|
Rod4Him ... 'However, there is no Biblical basis for a pastoral occupation' The rabbis and teachers in the temple are not far different.
'people let that person (the pastor) take responsibility for their spiritual lives. How often does one hear the phrase, "My pastor believes this or that?" The pastor becomes some kind of intermediary between God and man' I don't think that is general, and of course it is wrong.
'I don't know what you mean by "special."'
It was you who introduced the word "special" calling! In this context, I am referring to a particular occupation, or perhaps unpaid work, which God leads a person to do for His purpose.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/7/09|
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alan...that's an interesting idea to equate a pastor to other occupations. However, there is no Biblical basis for a pastoral occupation.
The pastor position is a traditional position, and the reason I pick on it is because people let that person take responsibility for their spiritual lives. How often does one hear the phrase, "My pastor believes this or that?" The pastor becomes some kind of intermediary between God and man.
I don't know what you mean by "special."
Believers have one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ the Lord your God.
---Rod4Him on 10/6/09|
Rod4Him ... Yes pastors do have special calling.
So do some school teachers, some doctors, some law enforcement officers, some clerks, some motor mechanics, some ... oh ... God has so many different places where He want His people to be.
All those who allow God to place them where He wants them have a special calling.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/6/09|
Where does the teaching come from that "pastors are called." What does that mean?
Are not all believers called?
So "pastors" have some kind of special "calling" that others don't have?
That sounds like these "pastors" were "chosen" and others weren't. Sounds like Calvinism.
These "pastors" claim what isn't claimable.
I know, how dare someone to question the authority of a "pastor."
---Rod4Him on 10/6/09|
Mima, Pastors are not "responsible for the actions of the sheep," per se, but are responsible for what they, the pastor, feed the sheep. Every man that is called of God to lead a flock is to be faithful to the word of God and not turn from it.
---tommy3007 on 10/6/09|
I think that your answer explained things well. I would like to add that this applies to ALL people, not just pastors.
I used to "beat myself up" when my friends had issues. Two of my Christian friends ended up getting divorced. Other friends have had children before they were even married. Tough situations. Many parents of these people are deeply hurt too. Anyway, everyone is responsible for their OWN behavior here.
I feel that many of us, like myself, end up "beating ourselves up" when we just need to let things rest. Once we have done all that we can do --> counsel, witnessing, prayers, rebuking, etc. --> we are no longer responsible for the decisions of others. Romans 14:12
---Augie on 10/5/09|
Interesting that he assumes that a "pastor" is a Biblical position.
This person, who calls himself a "pastor," will have to give an account for claiming to be "the pastor" of God's people.
This "pastor" would be more likely to give an account for why he doesn't submit to "one another," than he would for claiming responsiblity for a group of people. Most "pastors" don't think of submitting to one another, because, how could they, they are "leaders," they know what God is saying to people, they have a "position" to fulfill.
He may be sincere, and it has been tradition that "the pastor" is responsible "for the flock," but that's tradition.
---Rod4Him on 10/5/09|
To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?
Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, giving account of everything they have done in this world to God(Rom.1411-13).
I don't know if your wife misheard the pastor but all of us, not just pastors, shall give an account of themselves(Not an account of others) to God.
---Shawn.M.T on 10/5/09|
Many pastors don't seem to "preach the word". Maybe these pastors are afraid that some people will be offended. Meanwhile, sin is "exploding" in churches. As just one example, divorce rates in churches are at record highs. And still, many pastors are silent.
Well, pastors can only do their "best" to encourage people to make decisions that are pleasing to God. The final decision is up to each individual. Good decisions bring blessings and Bad decisions have negative consequences.
As long as a pastor has done his "best" to inform people to make Good decisions, I believe that he will NOT be responsible for
other peoples' decisions. Those people will be responsible for their own.
---Sag on 10/5/09|