Pastor Gives Tithes Back
MarkV. said, "We are saved by Grace through faith. Nothing we do can save us or makes us lose our salvation. It is all a work of God. I hope we agree on this."
Yes, I agree with you. And I can't say that your interpretation of Romans 4:14 is not correct. I know that your interpretation is the popular one, and it does fit and does make sense. I know that my interpretation is extreme, but then, if I am wrong, I have nothing to lose. Salvation is NOT part of my actual teaching of tithing as even I have a hard time with my own interpretation of Romans 4:14. For now I am "playing it safe," but I guess maybe it's time I study Roman 4:14 in more depth to get a better understanding.
---Gary on 12/14/09|
Gary, you are splitting hairs. We are saved by Grace through faith. Nothing we do can save us or makes us lose our salvation. It is all a work of God. I hope we agree on this.
If someone wants to follow a law, it does not make them lose what they already have, the law cannot condemn us. I am speaking of genuine believers.
Now if a person has not been saved by God, and is following the law, he is still under the law. Which really condemns them for breaking the law.
To the believer, Galatians 3:13, "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, 'cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" He became a curse for us by bearing God's wrath for believers sins on the cross.
---MarkV. on 12/14/09|
MarkV. - Galatians 3:10-14 (KJV)
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed
is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just
shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is
written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we
might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
---Gary on 12/13/09|
Gary, I am sorry but you misterpreted Romans 4:14 completely. "those who are of the law are heirs" he is saying if only those who perfectly keep the law-"an impossibility"- receive the promise, faith has no value-why? because making a promise contingent on an impossibile condition nulifies the promise of, v. 13.
Keeping the law of tithing in no way excludes faith in Christ. A person can tithe and have faith in Christ at the same time. If your remember, we are saved by nothing we do are ever will do, we are undeserving sinners, we are as you said, "Saved by grace through faith" not by whether we tithe or not tithe.
---MarkV. on 12/13/09|
Romans 4:14 (KJV)
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Therefore, anyone who keeps THE LAW of tithing has no faith and thus, cannot be saved.
---Gary on 12/13/09|
the issue is to tell the truth. tithe is to further the kingdom of god not to expect something in return. if the the truth is not exposed, then many will be deceive. are you concern about those who follow such teachings of prosperity?
---jim on 12/13/09|
The legalism of "tithing" does have ramifications of sanctification and maybe salvation. Do people trust Christ for their salvation, or is it Christ plus works?
While I don't believe people can lose their salvation, if people are trusting in works to be justified before God, the "work" becomes a human effort and perhaps a motivation in trusting one's own ability to be justified before God.
Yes, we should have works/behavior as a result of salvation, but works don't justify people before God.
One could give a "tithe" from the heart for God looks on the heart, and that's God business.
People should not be telling people what they "have to do" to be "accepted to God."
---Rod4Him on 12/13/09|
Gary 2 continue: while it is a serious topic to talk about, when it is talked about, the whole visible church takes a hit. Yet not the whole church is doing tithing. I know of no church I have been to that tithes. We do need to get the word out, so that others know what Scripture says, and we should mention this to believers so that they don't feel pressure to give 10% when they cannot affort it. We should all give from the heart. But in no way does giving 10% condemns anyone to hell. That has nothing to do with our salvation. Maybe to the mean pastors who know not to tithe and yet continue the practice, then to me they are going against God and might not even be save to begin with.
---MarkV. on 12/13/09|
MarkV. - When I said "I believe those who believe tithing is required under the law are messing with their own salvation" I am talking about PAYING The Lord's Tithe, NOT giving 10% of ones income. If someone actually believes they are UNDER THE LAW, and therefore are REQUIRED BY THE LAW to PAY the tithe, then I believe they are NOT under grace. The Word is clear to me that those who put themselves UNDER THE LAW, their faith has no value, thus, they cannot be saved.
Those who merely believe they should be GIVING 10% of their income is another thing. They are just misguided but that has nothing to do with their salvation. Those who put themselves under Malachi are putting themselves under the law.
---Gary on 12/13/09|
Gary, I admire people who have been called for a purpose they feel is for the Lord. Your work and all you have done is great. My problem is with what you said about those who tithe. Not the pastors that get rich knowing full well people should not tithe. You said something that caught my eye,
"I believe those who believe tithing is required under the law are messing with their own salvation. THIS IS A SERIOUS TOPIC."
That comment is just not true at all. Many believe tithing is right and so they give, but just because they give, in no way has anything to do with them losing salvation unless you believe a genuine Christian can. If you believe that then you and I are not on the same level of thinking.
---MarkV. on 12/13/09|
Personally, I give because ministries need funds to get the gospel out to the world. This is why God raised up America. Soon the times of the gentiles will be over (rapture) and Daniel's 70th week will begin. Then it will be Israel's (Jews) time to complete what they didn't finish. Preaching the gospel of the kingdom.
---James on 12/12/09|
MarkV. - God has called some of us to expose the false teaching. I have been spoken to by God, through His Spirit, and told by Him, what to "TELL THE PEOPLE." I take His message with me at all times. I give His message on blogs, on my Christian websites (I have well over 50 of them), to pastors who will listen, and to individuals, usually one-on-one who desire to know the truth. I have even written a book on this topic which I offer as a free download.
Last month a pastor in Australia emailed me to ask permission to use my material to teach his congregation.
I say all this so that you will understand that some of us may sound like complainers, or sound negative, but we are doing God's will by getting the truth out.
---Gary on 12/12/09|
jim, you can go on, they are doing this, and they are doing that, all your life. I will spend my time on the good news and stay away from the bad news. As I said before, God is not been defeated by anyone or anything. Everything is unfolding the way He wanted it to unfold, and all the inbetweens mean nothing to God. You want to give to the cause of God, go for it, if you don't then don't. It is really very simple.
---MarkV. on 12/11/09|
the elect cannot be deceived.
I saw this dr. coontz in tv & his message is about prosperity. first they will say
FAITH=OBEDIENCE=GIVE YOUR SEED/10%. the first 2 words would deceive a person bec. it test their faith & obedience. and also I saw this blog in another website about prosperity gospel & a 'believer' in this gospel defended it to the teeth. when we were presenting the true gospel of christ, he though he was being persecuted. and in the last days a great multitude will be deceived. it's the way they present this issue of money that is in question not what is written. there is a difference.
---jim on 12/11/09|
Jim, there is no excuse for what many are doing that is for sure. They get rich on the poor. But let me say there is many great churches that teach the essentials of the Christian faith and we should focus on the good work they are doing. The reason I begin to answer here because it seems to me that on every blog people like Steven G, condemned churches and I mean all of them for what some are doing. I disagree with that since God is working through many great pastors and teachers right this minute and to state He is been defeated is wrong. God is unfolding His providence in the manner in which it will be perfect and accomplish that for which has has planted from the foundations of the world. The Elect cannot be deceived.
---MarkV. on 12/10/09|
so what will a giver receive when he/she gives her tithe.
malachi 3:10 'bring the tithe to the storehouse ... I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out blessings so great you won't have room to take it in'.
prosperity preachers say that you will receive the same blessings they receive, as long as you give your 10%. they give examples of the blessings they receive.
what blessings? multimillon dollar homes, luxury cars, private jets? they do not specify, just on faith.
we give to further the kingdom of god, not further the wallets of these profiteers
---mike on 12/10/09|
so is there any difference between prosperity gospel where they focus on giving, in return they will become rich /prosperous & just plain tithing?
the lord is more pleased when we do what is right & just than when we offer him sacrifices
the sacrifice of an evil person is detestable especially when it is offered with WRONG MOTIVES
so what are the motives of the prosperity gospel? some pastors are close to that wrong motive. give your tithe you will be rich & prosperous bec. of malachi.
---jim on 12/10/09|
Gary, I agree with you that we should not tithe. Still I have belonged to a few churches, been to many others to visit and belong to an allience of churches and none teach tithing. I understand completely about the law, and using the law to receive money. I just don't know any myself.
---MarkV. on 12/9/09|
Here's an interesting thought: When God told Moses to build a sanctuary and tabernacle, He told Moses to take an offering from the people's heart, a freewill offering.
When Moses was still on the mountain and seemed delayed to come down, Aaron told the people to give him their gold to build a calf.
Moses took an offering from the heart, and Aaron told the people to give to make a calf.
I'll let whoever wants to, to draw a conclusion.
---Rod4Him on 12/9/09|
It is an interesting way to get people to tithe since so many do not. Many are not protected and are moved to sin because they fail to acknowledge the Lord with a simple 10%. He gives us all we have and He created all that has substance or is spirit. It does not hurt to give what He asks and if we give more, it will allow the Lord to open the heavens for us. God bless. Virgil
---Virgil on 12/9/09|
If a pastor teaches Malachi 3, robbing God, he is teaching the law. See Malachi 3:7.
Galatians 1:8-9 says if any preachers teaching differs from the scriptures, he will be cursed. He will be teaching a false gospel. While the preacher is telling you that you will be cursed if you dont tithe, the Word says it is the preacher who will be cursed for teaching a false gospel.
Paul's teaching does not include, embrace, nor permit tithing. And anyone that overlooks this theological fact has embraced a "contrary" and false Gospel. Tithe payers have fallen from grace just as certainly as those in the early church that wanted to require ritual circumcision. See Galatians 5:3-4.
Tithing was disannulled in Hebrews 7:18.
---Gary on 12/9/09|
MarkV. - You fail to understand the possible consequences of tithing.
Every church I have attended, and there are many, teach that tithing IS REQUIRED, and they QUOTE Malachi 3, robbing God, which in verse 7 refers to the ordinances, which are a part of the LAW. Thus, these pastors are teaching we are under the LAW of tithing.
The Word makes it clear that IF we put ourselves under the law, our faith HAS NO VALUE. Since salvation comes by grace THROUGH FAITH, if our faith has no value, it just might be we would not be saved.
I believe those who believe tithing is required under the law are messing with their own salvation. THIS IS A SERIOUS TOPIC.
---Gary on 12/9/09|
Jim/Wayne, I differ from both of you. Maybe you think that tithing is wrong and more important then the essentials of the Christian faith, and because of your feelings, your attitude towards churches has changed. I believe as mature Christians, we should already know how to give. If a person is still tithing 10% they either believe it to be right or they would not give. Will that change their position with Christ? I don't think so. If they believe in just giving anything from their hearts, because they believe that, will it change their position in Christ? I don't think so. I believe their is many great churches that teach the Truth, and of course many that don't. But do we sacrifice all churches for the works of some?
---MarkV. on 12/8/09|
you are right that congregation in prosperity churches are not evil or sinful. but the only comment I have is they believe it so much that they would defend it to the teeth. another is have they lost the main message of the gospel. paul focused his message on christ, his life, death resurrection for our salvation. whether he was poor or abundant, he did not focused on the material, temporal & wordly. and as I have quoted always, malachi & sowing seeds are not the only road to abundance. proverbs talks about hard work, skills, knowledge & understanding of your job.
---jim on 12/8/09|
MarkV. - I have experienced all kinds of pastors. Unfortunately, every one of them was either ignorant of the word or were liars.
I realize I am limiting this statement to tithing. I have known some very honest pastors who were teaching and collecting the tithe. However, when I challenged them, and they researched the topic on their own, they agreed that tithing ended at the cross, but kept on teaching and collecting it anyway. The others already knew that tithing ended at the cross, but teach and collect the tithe because they are afraid to give up that income. None of them were willing to admit to their congregation that they had been wrong. That makes them both dishonest and liars. Money always has and always will corrupt man.
---Gary on 12/8/09|
Gary, I meant the "Essentials" of the Christian faith. All doctrines necessary for all believers. I am sorry you have experienced nothing but bad pastors.
---MarkV. on 12/8/09|
Gary, when you say the pastors I don't know how many you know personally who are what you say they are, but I have met hundreds of pastors and none are the way you say. I don't know what places you have gone are attended but I have attended at least four churches and belong to an Alliance where many pastors all teach the assentials of the Christian faith, and maybe a few differ is none assentials but their churches are run very well. Most have missionaries that go out to other countries and help build hospitals and buildings where people meet and get help. So I differ from you and the places you have belonged to. I have read of the TV evangelist who are crooks, who hasn't?
---MarkV. on 12/7/09|
There is already enough people bringing a bad image to the Church.
---MarkV. on 12/7/09
That's where we differ, MarkV. You say the people are bringing a bad image to the Church, I say the Pastors create the bad image, not the people.
The average Christian tries to do the right thing. I'm not so sure the average Pastor tries to do the right thing. Too many that I know should find another occupation.
I admit many are good salesmen as they obviously have brainwashed their congregations into beliving they are teaching God's Word.
---Gary on 12/7/09|
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Ok Gary, go for it. Speak your mind, and continue bringing down your complains. That is your choice. You expressed your opinion and I did mine. There is already enough people bringing a bad image to the Church. I have not seen one blog are opinion on what great things a perticular church has done, only the negative side of it.
There is good in people Gary, and no one robs from God anything. Everything is His.
---MarkV. on 12/7/09|
What has happened here on the blog is the condemning of Churches when people give.
---MarkV. on 12/6/09
Read the posts again. I don't see anyone here condemning Churches when people give.
We are condemning pastors who LIE to get money. The ones who tell you the tithe belongs to God, and you are to bring it to the church. THAT, my friend, is NOT Biblical. It is a flat out lie. And the quoting of Malachi 3 - robbing God. That was referring to the Levitical tithe in Numbers 18 which was DISANNULLED. There is NO MORE TITHING. Those who teach tithing are either liars or just plain ignorant. Period. NO ONE condemns giving to a church.
---Gary on 12/6/09|
Gary, I never confused giving with tithe. I am very well aware why it was instituted. What has happened here on the blog is the condemning of Churches when people give. I believe everyone is very well aware of the TV evangelist, and the money they are racking in. But people need to stop making a mockery of the visible churches and how bad they are. No one has to give anything, I don't know where the problem is. They don't have to give tithes or give anything if they don't want. It is really very simple. I say for people to stop complaining, if they believe in tithes let them give, if they believe in just giving, give. If they don't want to give tithes or just give, they should not give.
---MarkV. on 12/6/09|
Pastor needs to read scripture. For the Lord loves a cheerful giver, which requires one to give from the heart, not from duress.
---Bill on 12/5/09|
God Almighty is not impressed with money: for he himself created all the planets and all the stars and the heavens, and the orb called earth which holds billions of things on its surface and the oceans of water containing billions of creatures which both spins around like a top and revolves around his sun, so he needs not any thing at all from his creation, especially not little pieces of metal nor pieces of paper called money: else your God is too little.
---Eloy on 12/5/09|
MarkV - Don't confuse giving with the Biblical tithe. They have NOTHING to do with each other.
I don't know of anyone who says we should not give to the church we attend. In fact, it is a moral responsibility to financially support the church you attend.
The Biblical tithe, aka The Lord's Tithe is NOT giving. It was PAID as required by Old Testament law. There was no choice.
The Biblical tithe is in Numbers 18 which was disannulled in Hebrews 7:18. There is NO MORE BIBLICAL TITHE. Pastors who continue to tell you to pay God's tithe by giving it to the church are either ignorant or liars.
---Gary on 12/4/09|
Part 2. we already know the jet that Benny Hinn has and all the big cars they drive and the beautiful homes they have. No one has to continue mentioning them. But we have many small churches that are spirit filled and need the help of others. Just because those people are evil does not make every congregation evil. Do not place every church in the same group. No one has to tell us there is sin in the world.
---MarkV. on 12/4/09|
There's no law that says you have to give. If no one wants to give for the works of the Church, they don't have to give. No one has a gun to their heads. Each one gives of his heart. If your heart tells you it is wrong, then don't give. But please stop complaining it is wrong to give for everyone. If it is wrong for you not to give, don't do what you think is wrong.
I give so that bills can be paid. we sweep the chapel so that we don't have to pay for someone to do it. We have machanics who work on maintance so that we can save from paying someone to come and do it. Yet the church has bills and if we want to continue to fellowship together in that place the church needs to pay the bills. Stop complaining and don't give.
---MarkV. on 12/4/09|
here is how prosperity gospel pervert the gospel
first they will mention about the possibilities that will happen to those who watch, listen to the message.
then they will mention that the believer should have FAITH
this FAITH will shift to OBEDIENCE. the televangelist / pastor say that OBEDIENCE is the key to prosperity
lastly, they will mention the 10% or 'sow a seed' (which is usually pass $100) to the kingdom of god. then the pastor / televangelist will write check of $500 & they will give their testimonty that they got rich bec of the $500 seed they sow. that $100 seed is the answer to the problems of poverty, man, etc etc
FAITH = OBEDIENCE = GIVE A SEED OF $100 = SUCCESS & PROSPERITY
---jim on 12/4/09|
We see this a lot in the world too - companies who give attractive guarantees, but when you read the fine print, it's almost impossible to actually collect.
Or the ads like the ones that say "Congratulations! You just won a free laptop* (*see details)" with fine print that says it isn't REALLY free, you have to sign up other people, or participate in several other offers (which usually cost you more than the laptop would have done in the first place), etc.
These are all examples of deceptive advertising - promising you something that they have no intention of delivering, in order to get your business.
---StrongAxe on 11/30/09|
I've heard of several others who tried the same thing, and either put several onerous and impossible conditions on the offer, or had to be taken to mediation to 'pay up'. There are several stories of Pastors when asked about the 30-60-100 fold "Word of Faith" promise, tell the person(s) that their salary was the return, or accuse them of lacking 'faith'. I've seen many churches become 'money traps', or if they gave, not to where God wanted. I've noticed that some of the poorest areas have the most gimme gimme Pastors. I've seen many puffed up 'preachers' come into the third world, and do no good for the Lord. James 4:2-3, 6, 10, 1Peter 5:1-7.
---Glenn on 11/29/09|
I've heard of one pastor that promised to give back someones offerings if God didn't bless them. He put only a very few biblical rules on the test. Only one eligible person came back, who was refunded the money. I've known of one church that gave a considerable amount of it's offerings to the poor. I've heard of a church in a impoverished area, that through good teaching and example, the congregants started several successful businesses - also offering employment to it's members. I've heard of a few ministers, along with godly instruction, offered no interest micro loans to third world Christians. They were both blessed, and a blessing to others, by the income generated.
---Glenn on 11/29/09|
1) Tithes were paid on clean domesticated animals and comestible crops within Israel.
2) "Tithes" used for other than salaries, or exceeding the median salary, or excluding some workers, was a Malachi 3:9 curse, a form of theft.
3) Tithes (see 1) were not paid on money owed, Matthew 5:23-24.
4) The poor received more than they gave.
5) Acts 15:20, 29 do not mention tithing.
6) Tithing was prohibited for centuries. The Protestants, until the nineteenth century, believed it was a corrupt practice.
7) Most giving was to the poor in the early church.
8) Christian give voluntary offerings and alms.
Beany, God uses our hands to "tip over some tables", 1Corinthians 2:15, 5:3, 11-13, 6:4, 11:31.
---Glenn on 11/29/09|
Tax rebates from the government aren't so much "pennies from heaven" as they are the government paying us back money that we had previously paid it via tax withholdings.
That money was ours to begin with, we aren't getting back anything that wasn't our own in the first place before the government took it away. It's the same way with tax refunds - you're just getting back what you yourself had previously overpaid. It's always LESS than what you paid, it's not a "cast your bread upon the waters" type of investment where you expect back more than you put in, like what the "tithe to gain riches" people teach.
---StrongAxe on 11/29/09|
Ok heres a twist what about those who tithe but claim tax rebates from the government my personal opinion on that is its not giving at all its lending,or possibly its stealing and perhaps its actually stealing from the world,after all its a worldly concept and we are called to be in the world not of the world.try and take that theory to your church leaders.
Of course the list of this kind of issue could go on and on.
But mean time......
Oh our God please help us and our leaders,please heal your church body in every area, we all see whats wrong,forgive us God and help us all to put it right for your name sake.
---beany on 11/28/09|
The concept of giving to God and later getting your money back speaks volumes about the greed and avarice of the giver. Under the Christian dispensation we are not to tithe but give cheerfully as we have the ability. Those with less can give less (some zero, some 5%), those with more are expected to give more (some 15%, some more).
We are led of the Spirit, not the law. Gal 5:18/ Rom 6:14
We are asked to give as we have been prospered 1 Cor 16:1-2/ 2 Cor 9:7
How can one be a cheerful giver if he invests in his own well being, expecting a refund if nothing develops?
We are warned to beware of false teachers. I would run from this guy!
---GEORGE on 11/27/09|
Hi all, lets stop in fighting and contentions, we will all give an account before God and God sees our hearts,he is fully aware of all that's occurring in our churches, and therefore perhaps instead of debates that pit us against one another, we ought to focus instead on praying that Gods hand would move through our churches and clean them up for us,tip over some tables so to speak!!Gods not money focused, he is life focused and we should be too,salvation for the lost now that's a Godly heart issue no one needs to debate.
---Beany on 11/27/09|
This pastor is a con man and cheat who should be part of a circus side show and not a so-called man of God. This is a shame how these people are allowing this man to stand in the pulpit and use them like that. Are people really this illiterate and stupid concerning the things of God?
God blesses who He chooses to. He gives and takes away, as He see fit. He moves on His own timetable and in His own way. We should give freely and from an open and cheerful heart. Not because some slick-talking preacher need to continue to line his pockets with his members,money. Most of the time the people in these type churches are almost homeless and very poor. Does this preacher care? I doubt it.
---Robyn on 11/27/09|
Alan, Strange thing about the bible,it never actually defines the "Kingdom" only that "It is like unto..."
What is a "Kingdom" A King and subjects..right?
Christ is King we are His subjects...that's "the Kingdom"! (An authority,ruler ship)
1st century Christians thought that Jesus would set up the Kingdom "then and there"!
---1st_cliff on 11/24/09|
Pastors love to quote Malachi 3:8-10 out of context. They leave out a key verse: Malachi 3:7 - Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them...
Now, exactly what ordinances is God talking about? Before you can understand what is being said, you must find those ordinances in God's Word. For your information, those ordinances are in Numbers 18.
Those who have really studied the topic know that Numbers 18 was disannulled, or cancelled, in Hebrews 7:18. Therefore, that which follows Malachi 3:7 can no longer apply.
See Hebrews 7:1-18. The tithe is mentioned SEVEN times in the first 9 verses.
---Gary on 11/24/09|
1st Cliff ... Depends on what yoy mean by the kingdom of God ... Do you mean all those saints wafting about in heaven, do you mean the vastness of heaven itself, or do you mean God's work ... I prefer the last!
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/24/09|
1Cliff, God motivates individuals to give for the purposes of His works. When there is a need that God wants to fulfill in an area in Africa, the Spirit puts that need in a persons heart. People will give and other will go there to witness to others, that God wants to save. We are just vessels for the Lord. God is not in need of anything, everything is His. He just knows where He wants some of us to go and makes it possible.
The Churches also don't function without electricity, bills and maintance to be done. They function by the people who give. Without those people giving, the church cannot stay open. Yet you don't have to give if you don't want to.
---MarkV. on 11/24/09|
Donna, I'm not trying to be difficult, I simply asked "out of curiosity" and you left it to me to "guess"!
**Jesus' instructions(?) were to give...and it will be returned in abundance(paraphrase)"**
Where is this scripture and who did He say to give to??
Alan, A "substantial amount" would indicate money!
Is the Kingdom of God the "poor, needy and distressed??"
---1st_cliff on 11/24/09|
As to Bob's question, I believe the pastor is wrong since God blesses all of us everyday. We should be glad we even woke up. Or that we have health as to others that don't.
As far as giving to cause of God, I believe Donna is correct. What we chose to do comes from our motives, and God judges our motives. When we give to a church our motives are good. What others motives are is not for me to concern myself with. They will be judge by their motives when the time comes. If I know someone is doing wrong with the money, then I won't give, since it again has to do with my motives. I want the money to be use for what I consider right cause. Missionaries to other places, pay the bills and so on. If people don't want to give, don't give.
---MarkV. on 11/24/09|
1st Cliff ... I think youb have been too clever and sharp with Donna.
She has not in fact said how and specifically in what form she released a gift inot the kindom of God. IOt may have been money, it may not have been.
Bearing in mind Christ's commands, would not giving money, food, clothing, or love,to the poor, needy or distressed be releasing a gift into the Kingdom?
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/24/09|
1st_cliff, you are going to get hurt JUMPING to wrong conclusions. Oh really? You really think you can't give God's Kingdom money? I never said I gave it to God, I said I released it into HIS Kingdom. And if the Kingdom is HIS, and He's the Ruler & King of that Kingdom, then I am giving it to God.
Jesus's instructions were GIVE and it SHALL be given unto you, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and runneth over. I did NOT give to get anything from God, that was my point. I gave because I asked God WHERE should I give? The Lord showed me something and I did it out of obedience. The carnal mind cannot understand the things of God, they are foolishness to Him. Sorry I even mentioned releasing the money.
---Donna on 11/24/09|
Money-back guarantees tend to work well for three kinds of people:
1) Those who have an idea or product that is so good and reliable that they never need to be called on it
2) Those who rely on human nature, and know that even if their promises don't hold up, few will call them to account
3) Charlatans who take the money and run, and rely on the fact that they will be long gone before anyone tries to collect on their promises.
Telemarketers and TV infomercials and televangelists and preachers abound with all three of these. It will remain to be seen just which category this particular preacher belongs in. Did anyone in his church collect, or try to collect?
---StrongAxe on 11/24/09|
Donna, One doesn't have to be "smart" to figure where the money went.
I'm smart enough to know you cant give God, or His Kingdom, money.
There are a myriad of pastors who claim to be His representatives on earth who are more than willing to separate you from your money!
Jesus' instructions were "give to the poor,and come be My followers" (not give to the synagogues or churches)They are not His deputies!
---1st_cliff on 11/24/09|
to pastor jim
well, that is what I hear from pastors quoting malachi 3:10
"Bring one-tenth of your income into the storehouse so that there may be food in my house. Test me in this way," says the LORD of Armies. "See if I won't open the windows of heaven for you and flood you with blessings.+ the verse seek ye the kingdom of god & all this will be added unto you. then they pervert it by saying it is the way to success.
final question is why do they force you to give instead of saying 'give out of your heart or if you want to give there are boxes on the corners of the church. but no they pass the tithe basket as if to force you to give. then quoting verses to make you feel guilty.
---jim on 11/23/09|
1st cliff - you are smart enough to know HOW one releases a gift of money into the Kingdom of God. I know you can figure this out on your own, you're very good at knowing the Word of God and the Will of God.
---Donna on 11/23/09|
Donna, Out of curiosity, just how did you "release a substantial amount" into the Kingdom of God???
---1st_cliff on 11/23/09|
so what do pastors / televangelist would always quote. Malachi, tithe & the 'opening of the doors of heaven & you won't have any room'... verse. another is 'seek ye the kingdom of god...' then add malachi & the tithe. another problem is when you question the teachings of your pastor you would be accused of 'ye lack faith' or accused 'are you calling god a liar?' then they would tell you to 'don't question the word of god, just do it'. there are other verses in the bible that are more practical than malachi. they are good in exploiting & perverting for selfish financial gain.
---mike on 11/23/09|
Most people would look for a financial blessing, and if they didn't get one would say God didn't bless them.
However, God wants to bless us with Him, with Spritiual things, spiritual gifts, etc.,
I told God the other night, you don't owe me anything for a gift I released into the Kingdom of God because it was a substantical amount.
I said to God, You already gave me your Heart, Your Son, Your Son's Blood, Your Grace, Your Love, etc., so you don't owe me a thing.
---Donna on 11/23/09|
If I were in a church that a pastor told the people to tithe, I would probably stand and adjure him in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ that he is a blind guide and blasphemous sinner in front of all, and I would proclaim that "My Father's house is a house of prayer, but You have made it a den of robbers!"
---Eloy on 11/22/09|
This is NOT Biblical. 1st God will bless us, and has already blessed us. 2nd the tithe belongs to God NOT the Pastor. If this Pastor thinks the tithe belongs to him, take your money and RUN, he is out to bless himself with things (suit, cars, houses), and NOT do with it what is to be done (bless the poor).
---Leslie on 11/22/09|
"YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST" !!!
No doubt someone will quote Malachi,which is NOT the case here. He is giving God an ultimatum! HOW DARE HE!!!
God may very well give him an Ultimatum!!!
You do NOT give to get! You give out of the heart of the Spirit of God in obedience to the Father.
Just as Jesus The Christ did when he came down to Earth. It was in obedinace to the Father!!!
ONLY THE WICKED GIVE TO GET!!!
---PASTOR_JIM on 11/22/09|
The pastor at our church made the same offer except he said for one year.
I really don't think anyone has taken him up on it. I mean, if they did and it failed, who would feel right about asking the church for a huge refund?
And, it has not worked out well. The church is millions in debt and has had a lot of budget problems and has had to lay people off.
Of course, that pastor will blame all the laid off unemployed people who did not pay their 10% to get their blessing. Or, the church had to give LOT of "refunds" when the economy tanked.
---obewan on 11/22/09|
This is a "no fail" situation,God has to bless them in 3 months?
He can simply say that God has given them 3 more months of life,so, there's a blessing right off the bat! The rest is superfluous!
Tithing is just another form of "TAX"!
---1st_cliff on 11/22/09|
I would say that this "pastor" is showing great salesmanship conning people with a scam.
All a "church or person" teaching this has to do is do it themselves, and they'll never have to work again, but do it without telling others to do it.
But if I can con people into giving me their money, I'll have plenty of money. It's a pyramid concept. Just be the first to do it.
Let me get this straight, I can hang out a sign that says "church," say, "I'm the "pastor" give me your money because God told me to tell you this." And people buy it. ??
---Rod4Him on 11/22/09|
The so-called pastor needs to repent from making an idol out of an old testament custom, tithing is sin: for God who owns all does not need money made by man, and he cannot be bought.
---Eloy on 11/22/09|
I would say that he is showing tremendous confidence in what he believes and is obviously teaching. Perhaps he thinks himself to have heard the voice of one he believes to be the Father and is seeking to instill that confidence in his congregation. However, it seems to me that in teaching tithing he is in direct violation of 2Cr 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give], not grudgingly, or 'of necessity': for God loveth a cheerful giver.":o) I, of course, have no idea what he is attempting to do, and will not judge it, or him. Hopefully he is ready and able to make good on his promise, and if so, it works for the good of his flock whatever the outcome.
---joseph on 11/22/09|
When you give your money, should it not go to God? In practicality it should go to the treasure of the church, who will then be responsible to the congregation for the use of the money.
The pastor should have no right to give the money back ... it was never his, so how caqn he give it back
It all sounds very dodgy to me.
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/22/09|
He is doing right according to Malachi 3:10, where GOD has asked people to test HIM by giving tithe. When first time I came to know about it and gave my tithe, I didn't have to wait even one month - the very next month there was increase in my income four times the tithe amount. I have many real stories on this subject. God is increasing my income and I am increasing my tithe. I praise and thank GOD today HE has given me chance to spent in HIS name 75% of my salary.
---MORRIS_CHAND on 11/22/09|
"He who gives a little will also get little, and he who gives a lot will also get a lot. Everyone according as he chooses in his heart...let him not give grudgingly, or out of distress: for God loves a cheerful giver..." 2 Cor. 9:6-7
RED FLAG!!! Nothing wrong with tithing, so long as that's what's in a person's heart to do (as opposed to being intimidated into doing it). I'm personally skeptical of pastors who have a hard sell mentality & have unaccountable access to, & control over the collected tithes & offerings of their congregation.
---Leon on 11/21/09|
I think he is very shrewd. After three months, who would have the nerve to tell him, "God hasn't blessed me at all and I want my money back"
He's betting,... NOBODY!
---Donna66 on 11/21/09|
I shall wait with interest to see if he really does so.
---Cluny on 11/21/09|
Sounds like prosperity gospel. I'm tired of hearing about it, but people are going to talk about it more, now that everyone is going broke.
Come to God, He's Santa!
---amand6348 on 11/21/09|