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History Of The Christian Faith

Why are christians so scared to study the history of the christian faith? Some say its because they are scared to find out the truth, that the christianity of today is not the same faith practiced by Yeshua.

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 ---wayne on 12/2/09
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MarkV- You didnt offend me in anyway dear sir, and I know you didnt call me anything, but if you read some of the other posts you see what I was speaking about. And you have made up your mind also on things which is fine. We debate and move on, correct?
---wayne on 12/18/09

Gods' will only is important, and the Bible is sufficient for doctrine, faith, and practice *1. We are expected to follow the doctrine(s) of the Apostles (as in the Bible) *2, and not any false traditions of men *3. Even our practices must agree with the Lords instructions in the Bible, and God will guide those Christians who have confidence in him *4.
*1 2Timothy 3:16-17, Jude 1:3.
*2 Acts 2:42, 1Thessalonians 2:13, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 3:6,
*3 Isaiah 8:20, Matthew 15:1-9, Mark 7:9-13, Romans 16:17-18, Colossians 2:8.
*4 John 10:27-28, 16:13-15, 17:8, Romans 8:14, 10:17, 1Corinthians 2:5-16, 1Thesslonians 2:13, 1John 2:20, 27.
---Glenn on 12/18/09

Wayne, I did not call you a heretic really. I said that many, and I was thinking of the early church fathers, had a lot of trouble with heretics not only changing the deity of Christ, but so many other things like twisting Scripture to say that Mary was not a Virgin. Now you come along and it seems my answer offended you. I was not trying to do that but you seem to have taken that as you. I don't believe answering you does much good since you will not listen anyway. You have made up your mind. I answered you that I had no trouble with it. If I put down three post to make a point why, you would come out with something else. You and I are in two different roads, heading in different directions. Your Jesus is not the One I worship.
---MarkV. on 12/18/09


All your quotes come from the Maseretic Hebrew Text written 500 A.D.

This Text was absolutely notorious for changing and deleting any and all OT verses that point to Jesus as the Christ.
The Masoretic Text did a great butchering job on Psalm 22.
As well as the rest of the OT.
---PASTOR_JIM on 12/15/09

PJ you're gonna fire Warwick up with this post. I'm personally glad you posted this. It is alarming that "men" and their agenda's messed with Scripture. GOD turns it into a blessing. Most fulfilling/hair-raising of the truths are what they attemped to hide/cloak and GOD reveals in other scriptures. Truth can not be suppressed for a searcher.
---Trav on 12/18/09

Is 11 is messianic and it says that the Spirit of YHVH will be upon Him ( The Moshiach) a Spirit of wisdom and understanding, a Spirit of counsel and strength, a Spirit of knowledge and FEAR OF YHVH. HE WILL BE IMBUED WITH A SPIRIT OF FEAR FOR YHVH.... If Yeshua is YHVH in the flesh, why does He fear YHVH? Does He fear Himself? God fears God??? You christians read into scripture what you want to be there, yet refuse to read in scripture what is already there. And then ridicule those who show you your doctrines are wrong and call us horrible names and say we have the spirit of hasatan. But until you can answer these things you shouldnt ridicule anyone.
---wayne on 12/18/09

Oh no I didnt win the most popular contest and christians are calling me names. It typical with christians though, the passage under question doesnt have anything to do with Yeshua and yet you will fight tooth and nail to say it does. Well if this is about Yeshua then this means Yeshua could have sinned seeing the child in question was given both options. And how do the 2 kings fit into the whole Yeshua thing. What 2 kings were destryed during Yeshua's life? So call me names and say Im of hasatan thats fine. But either way this passage has nothing to do with Yeshua and the shame is, is the fact that you all know it, and it proves your doctrines wrong, this is why you get angry.
---wayne on 12/17/09

Wayne, I have studied this and have no problem with it. In the middle of the passages a "Type" was used as prophecy. This prophecy reached forward to the virgin's birth of the Messiah, as the N.T. notes (Matt. 1:23). The Hebrew word refers to an unmarried woman and means "virgin" (Gen. 24:43), Pro. 30:19, Song 1:3, 6:8), so the birth of Isaiah's own son (8:3) could not have fully satisfied the prophecy. That was the connection, but was later to be fulfilled in Christ.
I am sure since you have other ideas and teachings you will argue, I have researched this through wordstudy Bibles and found that many heretics who claim that Mary was not a virgin, tried twist the words of Scripture.
---MarkV. on 12/17/09

Wayne if you believe what you claim concerning the Virgin Birth. Then by definition you believe that Jesus was a bastard. Born out of fornication.

And by you own reasoning, God not only condones, but blesses fornication, premarrital sex, and adultery. Since he decreed his Holy Son and Savior to be born of fornication.

Is this then your believe???
---Pastor_Jim on 12/16/09

Wayne: You have exposed yourself, you claim you are a follower of Jesus'(Yeshua.) testimonies but you deny what Isaiah 9:6 & 7:14 said about HIM. Your "truth & Christian history" is the devil's own. Surely you are the descendant of those who claim Jesus (1)did not rise from death but HIS disciple took Him away Matt.28:12-13 (2)was from Galilee only and not from Bethlehem John7:52 (3) had come to take their earthly exalted positions John11:48. The testimonies of John the Baptist(John1:32-36), Simeon the devout & Anna the prophetess the daughter of Phamuel(Luke2:25-38) condemns you Wayne & those who taught you the rubbish you are trying to propagate.
---Adetunji on 12/17/09

MarkV- If everything you said is true, then you must admit that the virgin birth of Isaiah has nothing to do with Yeshua. But you havent done that yet, so Im left wondering if what you said was true about wanting truth. Scripture makes it plain that the virgin birth ( even though it says young woman or maiden) has nothing to do with Yeshua.
---wayne on 12/16/09

Wayne, make no mistake, I have not been taught a certain way. Through the years my main concern was whether I was been taught correctly. It would be a shame as many that they refuse to change even when they see they are wrong. I am not that way. I make every afford to learn all I can how to interpret Scripture. I have taken lessons on hermeneutics in order to be able to learn how to interpret. My concern is not any religion, or denomination. I don't fight for them. My interest is the Truth in Scripture. So you are wrong that I am like everyone else who is a Christian. Many don't care about learning how to interpret. They are willing to believe what someone tells them. I think that is where you made a mistake. You believed what someone told you.
---MarkV. on 12/16/09

Jim, The original texts in Hebrew do not say virgin, and even if it did this is a sign for Ahaz and has nothing to do with Yeshua
---wayne on 12/16/09

Jim, MarkV- How does a sign given to Ahaz help him if it is fulfilled 7ooyrs later? Read the chapter,its very easy to see it has nothing to do with Yeshua. Mark you say how far from christianity Iam, yes Iam, but you are so ingrained with what you have been taught that you refuse to see what scripture actually says. How is the child in this chapter Yeshua. And Yeshua wasnt named Immanuel, but Isaiah's child was. The woman giving birth was Isaiah's wife, not Mary. The sad thing about this is even though you cannot prove me wrong you will come up with every excuse. No matter which text you use, it has nothing to do with Yeshua, and you know it.
---wayne on 12/16/09

Great answer Jim, I was going to respond to Wayne but you covered it very well. I believe that is why Wayne is gone from Christianity. Someone gave him the information how wrong Christians were and he went with it. I had just finished reading again my Wordstudy Bible concerning Isaiah 7:14 myself as to the "Virgin" birth.
---MarkV. on 12/16/09


All your quotes come from the Maseretic Hebrew Text written 500 A.D.

This Text was absolutely notorious for changing and deleting any and all OT verses that point to Jesus as the Christ.

The orginal Hebrew and the Septuagint both say Virgin birth and ALL the other OT verses you claimed to be inaccurate are in fact been more than verified.

The Masoretic Text did a great butchering job on Psalm 22.
As well as the rest of the OT.
---PASTOR_JIM on 12/15/09

Matthew has Mary, Joseph and Jesus fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod, and says that the return of Jesus from Egypt was in fulfillment of prophecy (Matthew 2:15). However, Matthew quotes only the second half of Hosea 11:1. The first half of the verse makes it very clear that the verse refers to God calling the Israelites out of Egypt in the exodus led by Moses, and has nothing to do with Jesus.
---wayne on 12/15/09

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Paul's answer in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 shows that Paul expected that at least some of those he was writing to would be alive when Jesus returned - "we who are alive, and remain..." The same passage also indicates that Paul believed that those believers who had died remained "asleep in Jesus" until he returned. However, as the delay in Jesus' return grew longer, the location of Jesus' kingdom shifted from earth to heaven and we later find Paul indicating that when believers die they will immediately "depart and be with Christ" (Philippians 1:23).

Explain all the contradictions,this is what you base your faith on?! I can keep going.
---wayne on 12/15/09

#1 The virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14)
This verse is part of a prophecy that Isaiah relates to King Ahaz regarding the fate of the two kings threatening Judah at that time and the fate of Judah itself. In the original Hebrew, the verse says that a "young woman" will give birth, not a "virgin" which is an entirely different Hebrew word. The young woman became a virgin only when the Hebrew word was mistranslated into Greek.

This passage obviously has nothing to do with Jesus (who, if this prophecy did apply to him, should have been named Immanuel instead of Jesus).

First believers didnt believe the virgin birth
---wayne on 12/15/09

Ga 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."

Ro 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

You mentioned that there will be 12 names on the New Temple, undoubtedly Judas had to be replaced by someone else, maybe Paul.

And no our New Covenant is NOT a renewed covenant but one that is distinct from the Older Mosaic Covenant.

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
---Lee1538 on 12/15/09

You worship the Eloah of Ysrael, the Moshiach you follow is Hebrew, but you separate yourself from anything Hebrew. Your religion is based on the greco roman religion. You follow almost every man made doctrine which comes along, but call YHVH's Laws a curse. How can you reconcile this? You run to paul and yet paul contradicts everything Yeshua said, He contradicts Himself. Where is pauls name on the new temple, it only has 12. He makes 13. Your all playing a dangerous game. You say your under a new covanent, yet its actually a Renewed Covanent, and it means you will follow the Laws automaticly, are you doing this? Guess what, your not. So your not under the Renewed Covenant yet. Stop calling the Law a curse, your playing with fire.
---wayne on 12/15/09

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Paul9594 //Lets read what the Father says about His Torah practiced to Spiritual intent:

You would be ahead in your spiritual life if you held Paul's view of the Torah.

Before his conversion Paul was a real "Torah man" but he came to regard it all as rubbish.

"If anyone thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the 8th day,... as to the law, a Pharisee, as to zeal, a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness, UNDER THE LAW BLAMELESS....Indeed, I count everything as LOSS because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as RUBBISH, order that I may gain Christ..." Php. 3:4f
---Lee1538 on 12/14/09

Paul9594 - pay attention to what JackB stated.

Are you still under that ministry of death & condemnation craved in stone (the Old Cov), or under the ministry of the Spirit which is far more glorious - the New Cov?

Read please 2 Cor. 3:7,9

Follow the Spirit of Jesus, otherwise your salvation will always be in doubt.

Things changed at the Cross and the Old Cov became obsolete. Hebr. 8:13
---Lee1538 on 12/14/09

Thats an awesome point, Lee.

I do recall a couple times Christ healing someone, forgiving them of their sins and then telling them to go do as Moses instructed and make a sacrifice.

I always wondered why He said that but after reading Hebrews I realized it was because He hadnt shed HIs blood of us yet, so the OT law was still the way to righteousness.

...until the cross.
---JackB on 12/14/09

Paul9594 - Matthew 19:16f And lo one came to him and said, Teacher what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?... keep the commandments.

Christ was addressing a Jew was under the Old Covenant law. If the man had asked if he needed to be physically circumcised, what do you suppose the answer Jesus would have given him?

What does the Spirit of Christ teach?

Galatians 4:4f But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

---Lee1538 on 12/13/09

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MarkV //Paul, you are still in the Old Testament, practicing the covenant of works of the law.

I believe that he has yet to read in the New Testament that the Old Covenant is obsolete and in pitching the Old Cov law he is trying to promote laws from an obsolete covanant.Hebrews 8:13.

Secondly he has yet to read 2 Cor 3:7f that "the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone (the 10 commandments)" was replaced by the ministry of the Spirit (3:8)which is more glorious.

But such is the plight of those who would pitch selective OT laws, esp. the observance of the Jewish Sabbath -nowhere commanded of Christians under the New Cov. of the church.
---Lee1538 on 12/12/09

Paul, you are still in the Old Testament, practicing the covenant of works of the law. We have moved on to the New Covenant of Grace. What we could not accomplish (perfect works) which none were able to do, Christ took our place with His perfect works. You are going to have to move forward. No one is without sin, and the reason everyone needs Christ in their lives.
---MarkV. on 12/12/09

Children of the Father:

Are MEN/WOMEN OR brothers telling the law is bondage, sin or otherwise?

Lets read what the Father says about His Torah practiced to Spiritual intent:

Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do them, for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, that shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

7 For WHAT GREAT NATION IS THERE, that hath a God so nigh unto them, as Jehovah our God is whensoever we call upon him?

8 And WHAT GREAT NATION IS THERE, that hath statutes and ordinances SO RIGHTEOUS as all this LAW/Torah, which I SET before you this day?
---Paul9594 on 12/11/09

2Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you,
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction
wayne thinks Paul an apostate according to Eusebius
I will believe one of the 12 disciples over a 21st century quote from a 3rd century historian.
---MIchael on 12/11/09

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Wayne we Christians are people who made the decision to follow the Lord Jesus Christ as our Creator and Redeemer. We will of course look at you differently as you are not a Christian brother. That does not mean we reject you as a human being but that your views are directly contrary to that which we sincerely believe, and therefore not acceptable to us.

I am sure you look at us differently.
---Warwick on 12/11/09

"I used to be a christian..." Wayne, 12/7

No Wayne! If you really were, you'd still be. Obviously, you were a christian (like vast numbers of people) in name only.
---Leon on 12/11/09

Adetunji- I give no illusions to what I believe. I love YHVH and Yeshua. But people here on this forum seem to look at me differently because I refuse to call myself christian, and because I tell the truth of the false doctrines of the churches. Anyone with common sense can see that the churches do and teach something totally different then the Yeshua of scripture. But no one is willing to admit it, or should I say only a few will admit to it.
---wayne on 12/10/09

Wayne: Glad you wrote, I follow Yeshua and do what He says, I keep the commandments of YHVH and keep the testimony of Yeshua. It is good/well, please continue (John8:31-32). (1) I think you are wrong on the convenant, Gen.12:3..and in thee shall ALL FAMILIES of the earth be blessed AND Jesus (Yeshua) in John3:15 said, That WHOSOEVER believeth. The 2 phrases includes all non-Jews TRUE or FALSE? (2) Has Jesus sacrifice on the cross of Calvary become your Passover? Or do you still do animal sacrifices (according to Torah) when God had changed the instruction? PART1
---Adetunji on 12/10/09

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Adetunji- So because I do not believe as you, Im not saved??? Really? Your outside of the covenant and yet you say Im not saved? I follow Yeshua and do what He says, I keep the commandments of YHVH and keep the testimony of Yeshua and yet Im not saved. Well Im sorry you feel this way, because I want to know how you and others can be saved when your disobiedient to the Father. Yeshua says in Matt that He will say He doesnt know you because you have no Torah. He describes the christian church in this Matt 7:22-23. The word iniquity comes from the greek anomia which means to negate the Torah to have no law. You need to come to the light, not me.
---wayne on 12/8/09

Wayne, a coptic priest does not mean the samething as a Christian, for a person must be born-again to become a Christian, and if you were never born-again from Christ than all you ever had and still do have is dead religion, for ceremony or religion instead Jesus is worthless.
---Eloy on 12/8/09

Wayne: You are a coptic priest/ Netzari Priest etc, the above will not justify you before God except Jesus Christ washes you and sets you free. My grandmother taught me when I was ~8yrs old that to make decisions & resolve difficult issues, that I should pray to God in Jesus name & God will show what to do. This has helped me beyond my description and imaginations. No history can take that experience from me. I pray Wayne that you will come into the saving knowledge of the Awesome Emmanuel(Isaiah7:14, Matt.1:23). The LORD JESUS REMINDS YOU, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life"(John3:14-15).
---Adetunji on 12/8/09

Adetunji- Dont pity me, pity yourself and find the truth.

MarkV- I used to be a christian, I was a coptic priest so I know christianity very well. Now Im a Netzari Priest, some call us Yarushalim Orthodox. I do not judge you, just christian doctrines. Most of what you follow wass not followed by the early believers. But the greco roman church change most of everything.
---wayne on 12/7/09

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Acts 11 v 26, & this Is where it All started, Mark 16 v 16 - Acts 2 v's 37-41 which Fulfills Matt 28 v's 19-20, Gal 1 v's 8-9. From God, Apostle Peter delivered This Salvation Message to the Jewish people First on the day of Pentecost, then Apostle Paul brought This Very Same to us gentiles. Yes again, the Man-made trinity leaders deny this.
A blogger said, the bapt-church didn't come r-catholocism, if your in the trinity doctrine, Yes It Did, prob not in this order, the bapt, naz, presby, luth, aog, wesleyan, episco, aog etc churches, such Good people but in darkness. For r-catholocism came along about 300 years aft God's Church was born on the day of Pentecost.
---Lawrence on 12/7/09

Christians are not scared of the history of the Church.
The history in no way can be all truth. History is written by many people.
Many who have an agenda.
..the only real Truth there is, is found in Scripture.
---MarkV. on 12/6/09

Well, I wish I'd have written that, Mark. Condensed nicely.

No argument, but I do find that a lot of Christians are scared to leave some history although. On here it is hard to find many that will research anything. Prophets, flicked off as if they are nothing now, to most denom/doctrines.
Mistranslated words? Cling to them like life rafts rather than set their feet on solid ground of truth. I understand for a little while, by having been there.
---Trav on 12/7/09

Trav, I agree with you, Yeshua came for lost sheep of the house of Israel, so where does this mean He started a new religion. He came to bring the lost sheep back to the Torah out of the pagan nations. ---wayne on 12/4/09

Well wayne, 1st I never claimed he started a new religion. He didn't. A new name,yes. He states he came for that which was lost.
2nd. Seems you are missing the largest stated/prophesied group in scripture. The 10 other nations of Israel. Most denoms, exclude them. It was obviously meant to be so.
3rd. Nations in Heb8:10 and Jer were to have laws written in their heart. A better situ than u/us understanding with O.T. Torah logic. Which was/is still contributary to grievious errors of men.
---Trav on 12/7/09

Wayne, I am not suggesting for you to be a Christian, or to change what you do. In fact you can be who you want to be. You can follow whoever you want. I have no control are even believe I can turn you one way or another. If I knew enough of what you were following, like studying what you believe, then I would be able to judge you one way or another. But it would be unfair for me to do that since I know little of you by your answer and who you follow and why and what you have been taught. And really, I don't want to know since Christ is not Lord of your life. Don't worry about that, there is many of you.
What I do know is that you are not one of us. That is all I know because Alan told me you were not a Christain.
---MarkV. on 12/7/09

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I pity you Wayne & all who have your understanding. Be it known to you that the Jesus Christ (Yeshua) that you be-little is our PEACE & INESTIMABLE BLESSING. Apostle John describe what is happenning better in John1:6-13. You can meditate on these verses if you want. There are many things to point to you but time & space will not permit because of your mindset. The sign God gave was rejected by the people in the area where the sign was given, but those that heard of the sign afar off has been greatly blessed.
---Adetunji on 12/7/09

Trav, heres something else. Paul says law is good perfect holy, then turns and says its a curse. You cant have it both ways, which one is it?
---wayne on 12/4/09 It seems that way until you understand they were dealing with such as yourself who were trapped/destroyed by laws in stone, O.T..
They were free. Understanding with laws written in their heart...understanding the old at the same time. Dealing with those that judged/tested/measured by the the Old.
Would you shave a piece of skin to win your brother to GOD? Yes you would.
Look up the word annointed, if you haven't been as you claim.
I would take care to ask the only teacher, the "annointed" one YAHSHUA.
There are no contradictions...only a finer truth.
---Trav on 12/7/09

MarkV,Alan, I do admit to not being a christian, Im proud to admit it. Im A Netzari, or to make it easy for you Im a Nazarene just as Yeshua was, and the Apostles. But see truth and history are scary to you, for if you truly studied history you would be thinking differently. But you refuse to be honest. I could respect you if you would just say the truth such as this: I dont care what YHVH says, nor His Prophets, Nor His Moshiach, nor anyone . I will do and say and follow what I want. But see none of you would say it out loud. Your religion is proven to be pagan. Where as I follow the true Yeshua, and His Father. So put me down, but at least scripture and history are on my side.
---wayne on 12/6/09

Wayne, in answer to your question, Christians are not scared of the history of the Church. The history in no way can be all truth. History is written by many people. Sinners. Many who have an agenda. We can put things together by hearing as many as we can and sort of come out with some information that is true but the only real Truth there is, is found in Scripture. Written by men inspired by God.
What you practice is what you have heard from some other sources and not from Scripture. That is easy to tell from your answers.
---MarkV. on 12/6/09

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Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Heb 1:1,2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,

1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea, And did all eat the same spiritual meat, And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
---jerry6593 on 12/5/09

Alan, thank you for the information. It is no wonder he is always oppose to many Christian values or teachings. I have ran into those in times pass. peace brother
---MarkV. on 12/5/09

MarkV ... Wayne has already specifically told us he's not a Christian, on 11/24 on the "Yeshua for his son" blog:

"Im not a christian, though I used to be an Orthodox priest. Im now a Nazarite priest. Our Pachid ( overseer, what you call bishop) is in Ysrael. I do not follow christ. I follow YHVH and His Torah ( without Talmud)and keep the testimony of Yeshua as scripture states. The first believers never thought of Yeshua as a god nor do we. The Apostles never thought of Him as a god nor do we. Yeshua was a man approved of by YHVH , whom YHVH did miracles through. YHVH raised Him from the dead. Its all YHVH, Yeshua was anointed for this. This is scriptural. And He wasnt known as jesus either"
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/5/09

Wayne, you have convinced us that you are not a Christian, by what you have said,
"Why the double speak, and this is who christians follow, dangerous to say the least!"
If you are not a Christian, what are you?
---MarkV. on 12/4/09

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wayne, I can't help but notice that you are against anything that the Torah doesn't specifically condone. In addition, you promote keeping the Torah.

Which ordinaces of the Torah do you suggest everyone keep? All of them? Have you read it lately?
---Rod4Him on 12/4/09

Trav, I agree with you, Yeshua came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, so where does this mean He started a new religion. He came to bring the lost sheep back to the Torah out of the pagan nations. Christianity came from the greco roman culture and hence all the pagan holidays, pagan doctrines. Hence the feeling of not being under the law. And if Yeshua chose paul, then why cant paul get his vision right? He tells it different each time. Why does paul violate Torah? Paul goes against James Peter John and puts them down. He calls the Gospel His, he uses half truths. Half verses.
---wayne on 12/4/09

Trav, heres something else. Paul says the law is good perfect holy, then turns and says its a curse. You cant have it both ways, which one is it? He says circumscission is nothing, but has Timothy circumscised. He tells people not to follow the law but then says he has kept the law in all aspects. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth. James says not to eat food sacrificed to idols, then paul says go ahead and do it as long as no one see you do it. This is who you follow????? Why????Peters vision told him he would go to the gentiles, paul says peter is to go to Israel and he would go to gentiles. Why the double speak, and this is who christians follow, dangerous to say the least!
---wayne on 12/4/09

jesus himself chose paul to take the message of the gospel to the gentiles,thiese are non jewish people.
---tom2 on 12/4/09

You are correct they are not Judeans. They are the other 10 nations of Israel, The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. Gentiles=nations,ethnos.

He came to seek and save that which was lost. So lost you cannot find or may be one of them.
Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Ten virgins, ten coins, ten servants etc.
Sheep, sheep, sheep.
---Trav on 12/4/09

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If we really want to be honest, Yeshua never founded christianity, nor did the Apostles. Yeshua was an Orthodox Jew, he preached Judaism and Torah. If we were to line up the doctrines of Yeshua....Wayne

You are an interesting guy wayne. You like one thing completing your analysis. Christ came for the Lost Sheep. The message went to the Lost Sheep. You have not recognized these for what they are yet. Or who. He did not/cannot fail, even though many sheep are in ignorance. Like strong seed some will grow, not wither. Some will seek, some will ask, some will find.
Heb 8:8-10>> GOD wrote em (laws n heart). You obviously can't see them. Yet.
---Trav on 12/4/09

Is 9:6- Here is the actual Hebrew ttranslation - For a child has been born unto us, a son has been given us, The government shall be upon his shoulder,his name shall be called wounderful counselor of the Mighty God,of the everlasting Father,the prince of peace.
This is not about Yeshua,Peleh Yoetz El Gibbor Avi-Ad Sar Shalom. First you feel Yeshua is God, and yet this in the actual Hebrew shows it speaks about a descendant of David, who is a counselor of the Mighty God, or Elohim, Yeshua is not the Everlasting Father. Your bibles translate this as if it calls someone else the Father?
---wayne on 12/4/09

It is marvellous to witness the hard-hearted and stiff-necked nonbelievers like Wayne to actually being blinded from the truth, from the truth of the historical past, the current present day, and the prophetic future to come. Their obstinance moves them from not seeing the published evidence in front of their own eyes into accepting proven falsehood against the truth.
---Eloy on 12/4/09

Herb ... Actually, Puritans originated in England, and they were an off-shoot of the Roman Catholic Church, resulting from the excessive hatred of some parts of the Reformation.

As to the history of the baptist Church, I don't ant to start a debate with you, but it i intersting to rad what Wickipedia says
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/4/09

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jesus himself chose paul to take the message of the gospel to the gentiles,thiese are non jewish people.The truth is knowing jesus,repenting,believing in who he is,what he came for,that he was raised from the dead,and that we can receive the gift of eternal life by living,aka,walking in the spirit,and following him.Not as jews,nor as gentiles,but as believers of his truth,because he is truth,the only truth.
---tom2 on 12/4/09

Wayne: you avoided my ques on Isaiah 9:6-7. Verse 7 confirms that the coming of Yeshua(Jesus), means some re-ordering & re-establishment(henceforth & forever). Therefore the coming of the Lord Jesus signifies the death of Judaism as your fore-fathers practised it. In Matt.9:16-17 Jesus told the Jews "not to put new wine into old wine-skin" clearly explaining that HIS doctrine cannot fit into their Judaism. Jesus confirmed they were sinning with somethings practised (Matt.15:3-9) "mere tradition of men" AND every practise that God did not establish shall be removed(Matt.15:13-14). Wayne please remove yourself from the blind(John 9:41). If you have doubts, ask JEHOVAH to direct you, HE is I AM THAT I AM and alive.
---Adetunji on 12/4/09

All of you here have proven my point, and you proved the point of this blog, none of you care to look into the history and facts of what you call christianity. You would rather be like the world, and keep your traditions. Instead of following YHVH and the Moshiach you claim to love so much, you would rather keep the traditions of men. Yeshua taught Judaism, but you much like the rest of this world have separated yourselves from YHVH. All of you are scared to look at truth, but remember, for every idol word you will be held to judgment. So think of yourselves as being saved, you follow your own desire, not YHVH. Enjoy while you can
---wayne on 12/3/09

Wayne, no offense meant to you here, but are you unlearned to where you do not even know that Christ is the founder of Christianity? Even reputable scholastic and secular books reference this historical truth, that Christ founded his Christian Church. Where do you think the word Christian is derived from, but from Christ? Please research the scriptures, for Christ himself says, "Search the scriptures, because in them you all think eternal life you all have: but they are they which testify about me." John 5:39.
---Eloy on 12/4/09

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Jesus started the church about 100ad. False churches got started about then too which later became the Catholic Church. The followers of Christ were first called Christians. Then called by other names, Montanists, Puritians, Ana-Baptist, and later Baptist. Then you had those who broke from the Catholic Church to become protestants. However the Baptist church never came from the Catholic Church and are not called Protestants. Read "The Trail of Blood" by J.M.Carrol
---Pastor_Herb on 12/3/09

Yes yes Rod.

We drive cars which spew poisonous gases that hurt Gods planet and damage our temples.

Therefore it is sin lol

All car drivers must repent!
---JackB on 12/3/09

Doesnt the Bible have enough of its own history?

Why do we need to go outside of it?
---JackB on 12/3/09

Good for you jody. Good comments.

The question in the title of this blog makes a sweeping assumption that "christians" are scared to find the truth.

Christians have nothing to fear from history. The more I learn about it the more exciting life is. Some may think there is something to be fearful of. It's uncomfortable when a tradition is challenged. Some of the traditions may be challenged, but who is to say all tradition is wrong. Christ is still Lord of Lords and king of kings.

Just because the Bible doesn't say to do something, doesn't mean that thing is wrong.
Where in the Bible does it say it's okay to drive cars? So, I guess driving cars is pagan.
---Rod4Him on 12/3/09

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Jody, once again you prove my point, because if you were to truely study the history you would leave the so called christian faith and go to the faith that Yeshua practiced. You would walk as Yeshua walked. But as usual neither you nor to many others who call themselves christians care to know the truth. You violate YHVH's Laws, and you do it gladly. Yeshua states in Mat that He will say to those without Torah that He never knew them. But even this will not stop you from violating the Torah, the very instructions Yeshua kept and told us to keep. Who is your master? The true Hebrew Yeshua, or the greco roman jesus?
---wayne on 12/3/09

Studying history is a good thing:). A believer/follower of Jesus Christ will not be shaken by knowledge. I don't think the equation of Sabbath and salvation as discussed here is accurate. Worshipping God on Saturday or Sunday is not important. Bible says that some worship everyday alike. These are only a shadow of what is to come and has absolutely nothing to do with salvation under the New Covenant:).
---jody on 12/3/09

Good try, the pagans call it sabbats not Sabbath. Good try though. As far as the word Shabbos, I could say Shabbat also. For the word Sabbath means seventh not something pagan. Check your facts. Why do you worship on sunday Cluny when in greek it says miaton sabbaton which means one of the regular Sabbaths, it doesnt mean first day of the week. This kills your easter sunday, good friday, as well as useing the resserection as an excuse for sunday worship, seeing Yeshua was raised on the Sabbath. Yeshua worshiped on Shabbat, the Apostles, Paul, the first and second century believers, why not you and the so called believers? Are you embarassed to do what Yeshua did?
---wayne on 12/3/09

\\The greco roman church is what gave the world this paganized religion called christianity.
---wayne on 12/2/09\\

Why, on the other blog where you have carried on about this, have you used the pagan word Sabbath? The very witches use this word to describe their gatherings and rituals.

The real Biblical Hebrew word is SHABBAS.
---Cluny on 12/3/09

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Ooooh did a nerve get hit or what???!!! Well show me Yeshua started christianity, show me you dont celebrate pagan holidays. If you truly read history you will see the religion you practice isnt the faith of Yeshua or the Apostles. But see your like drug addicts who are being confronted with their addiction, and you react with anger, excuses, and very defensively. But yet non of you can really prove otherwise. Christians can be given hundreds of thousands of pages of proof, in fact the entire Tanakh refutes your beleifs. The Gospels refute your beleifs. Your beliefs are traditions of pagan men not scripture. And yet no matter what you still say your the only right religion.
---wayne on 12/3/09

Wayne, Christians have zero fear of the history of Christianity, for we the born-again Christians from Christ know with experience that Christ indeed is the author and the foundation and the cornerstone of Christianity, and that he alone is the only way to Salvation and into his kingdom of God. And outside are the nonbelievers, the unrepented idolaters, and the cursed from God.
---Eloy on 12/3/09

Aaaa, Wayne! Who are you talking to, yourself? One Wayne asks a question & the other Wayne answers? Does it hurt when you do that?
---Leon on 12/3/09

Wayne: Do you believe Yeshua(Jesus) is the one predicted in the book of Isaiah 9:6-7?
---Adetunji on 12/3/09

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If we really want to be honest, Yeshua never founded christianity, nor did the Apostles. Yeshua was an Orthodox Jew, he preached Judaism and Torah. If we were to line up the doctrines of Yeshua,christianity, and pagan religions, we would see christianity is the same a paganism. Where as Yeshua's teachings are pure Torah.
---wayne on 12/2/09

The faith of Jesus far transcends that of mortal man.Jesus lived without doubt.
Man being hungry and thirsty by nature sometimes elects to go hungry and dehydrates from lack of water.
Christianity is a specific religion and faith is the actions of a believer.No one would act unless that one believed in the act.
Jesus' gospel revelation was not christian.It applied to all nations and people herein.Christianity is mainly based on Paul and Apollo gospel.
Being afraid to change is nothing new.Jesus was killed because some believed he will corrupt and bring down the existing religious traditions.
---earl on 12/2/09

The christianity of today is not the same as in the scriptures. Doctrines have been added others taken away. The christianity of today is nothing more then a paganized religion about Yeshua. Christians are very good at pointing out the faults in other religions, but fail to look at their own. Even scholars of the christian faith have found that the doctrines of today were not practiced in the first century, nor by the Apostles. Yeshua never taught a Trinity, original sin, rapture, Yeshua never taught Torah is done away with, I could go on and on. The greco roman church is what gave the world this paganized religion called christianity.
---wayne on 12/2/09

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