Jewish Followers Of Yahushua
Do you know if there were Jews who were followers of Yahushua during his physical lifetime, yet, after His physical death, didn't follow Paul or come to call themselves "Christian"? If so, where are their descendants today?
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---AlwaysOn on 12/9/09
Helpful Blog Vote (10)
Good stuff...thanks, guys! :)
---AlwaysOn on 12/13/09|
Yes, as the prophecy foretold, I will smite the Shepherd and the sheep will be scattered abroad. And there are those whom have forsaken Christ and have not repented back up to him again, but are remained condemned for their poor choice to leave Christ for sin, and are called antiChrists of the synagogue of Satan. "Little children, it is the last time: and as you all have heard that antiChrist will come, even now are there many antiChrists: whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." I John 2:18,19.
---Eloy on 12/13/09|
Alwayon... I would say most continued to be called Jews probably up to around 135A.D.
This was the date of final rebellion against the Romans(by Rabbi Kokhba). However: the Christian Jews (The Way) refused to join the rebellion as was expected. It was then the final schism occurred. The name Christians (Acts 11:19) became widespread after this schism. The Jews went futher to excommuncate any Christian Jew from worship at the synague and added "The 19th Benediction" to their sermons. The Christians started separating from the Jews and removed them completely out of Christianty in the Catholic Nicea creed. Literally removing ALL Jews from the council. (125ltd)
---PASTOR_JIM on 12/13/09|
"Pastor Jim: Regardless of what most scholars believe, would you say Rev. 2:2 either (literally or allegorically) refers to the Nicolaitans or not? Thanks." :)
---Leon on 12/11/09
Yes, it definitely does.
Their doctrine was similar to that of Balaam, "who taught Balak to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication" (Rev 2:14,15).
FYI...These 7 letters (Completeness) are for all churches past/ present/ future. They contain everything we need in a nutshell.
---Pastor_Jim on 12/12/09|
I think that the way I worded the original question is confusing. The question is not whether or not Jews followed Yahushua. We already know that He was Jewish, as were a great number of His followers. Instead, the question was meant to determine if any of His Jewish followers continued to live as Jews and did NOT call themselves Christians. And, if this was the case, what do we know about them.
A few of you have been helpful in pointing me towards a few possible answers and I thank you.
Samuel, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that many of them did cling to their Jewishness, but were excommunicated by the Roman church or killed during the Crusades for doing so. Thanks for this info.
---AlwaysOn on 12/11/09|
Pastor Jim: Regardless of what most scholars believe, would you say Rev. 2:2 either (literally or allegorically) refers to the Nicolaitans or not? Thanks. :)
---Leon on 12/11/09|
Many Jewish Christians existed for a long time in the early church. Many were forced out by the antisemtism of the RCC as it grew in power.
During the Crusades those who were Jewish Christians living in the Holy Land were killed as not being true Christians since only those who followed the word of the popes were true christians.
---Samuel on 12/11/09|
We know very little about this sect. Only references we have is Rev. and in Acts.
We DO know they were located in Northern Africa around Alexandria and were well know and vemently opposed for heresy.
What we are not sure about is whether or not they actually made it as far North as Asia (Ephesus). Most scholars believe the text is only an allegory reference to this heretical sect. The reason for this is because it is used again to the Pergamum Church REV2:15 along with OT Heretics such as Balaam and Balak. To Thyatiras REV2:20 it refers to Jezebel in the Aorist tense but we know her to be an OT figure as well.
There are other examples but I have the 125 word ltd.
---Pastor_Jim on 12/11/09|
Most of everyone who followed the MESSIAH during His first Advent, not all, but most, were "Jewish followers of YAHUSHUA". He was called "YAHUSHUA" when He walked the Earth, not "JESUS". And, His principle followers were all Jewish/Hebrew. The Bible declares that Salvation is of the Jews first, then to the Greeks (Gentiles). YAHUSHUA (JESUS) admonished His Disciples to take the Gospel first only to the lost sheep of Israel. Then, the Apostle Paul began to evangelize to the Gentiles. There were a handful, in comparison, of Gentiles who believed in the MESSIAH during His Ministry, like the Roman Centurian, etc...but, most were Jewish/Hebrew.
---Gordon on 12/11/09|
"We're not sure who REV2.2 refers to."
PASTOR JIM, 12/10
"But this you have, you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans [adherents of the heretic Nicholaus], which I also hate." Rev. 2:6
"...You also have them who hold to [keep] the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which is a thing I hate." Rev. 2:15
---Leon on 12/11/09|
ALWAYSON. We're not sure who REV2.2 refers to. It may have been the Jews or the Pagan in Ephesus. The church did have much problems with the Diana Temple worhippers.
It was most certainly not Paul, because we have ample evidence of their close relationship. Not only in the NT but from early Church Fathers (Polycarp Eraneous John etc.)
But since Paul never wrote a letter to The Ephesians. We do not have any direct correspondance to refer to.
---PASTOR_JIM on 12/10/09|
Leon, thanks for bringing the difference between descendants and adherents to my attention. It's an important distinction and I'm interested in both. Descendants, because I know it was (and still is) common for people to follow in the faith/traditions of their ancestors. And those who don't typically are still a good source for studying the history of a people. Then, of course, I'm interested in the adherents for reasons already mentioned.
Leslie, thanks, I know they were all Jewish, but I'm wondering if there were those who didn't continue with the Jews that rejected Yahushua, but ALSO didn't come to identify themselves as Christian. I like your explanation of the original use of Christian vs. how it is used today. Insightful!
---AlwaysOn on 12/10/09|
Leon, your answers are very true. Here Wayne and Jim, are like others who don't want you to forget old pagan gods. They want to make sure everyone knows about them. They keep the old gods alive just as many others have through history.
Your answers as to the Nicolaitans, is also true. For over forty years the Ephesian church had remained faithful, but to be a Christian is to love the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:21, 23, 1 Cor. 16:22), but the Ephesians passion and favor for Christ had become cold, mechanical. Their doctrinal and moral purity for the truth and their discipline service were no substitute for the love for Christ they had forsaken. They became legalist.
---MarkV. on 12/10/09|
Cluny- I do not need to make up a religion, your christian religion is the man made pagan religion. The Netzari have been around for centuries. Check your history\\
I did. According to your sect's own website, it's a variety of Hasidism (which is only a couple of centuries old) that believes that Jesus is Messiah.
However, it does seem to have affinities with the centuries-old HERESY of Judaising, which the Church Jesus founded has been struggling with since St. Paul wrote the letter to the Galatians.
---Cluny on 12/10/09|
Most ALL of the followers of Jesus (Yeshua) were Jewish. Also, most ALL of the followers of Paul (including Paul) were Jewish and followers of Jesus (Yeshua). In fact the word "Christian" only appears 3 times in the Bible, and is used as a discriptive word for Messianic (follower of the Messiah) - it was NEVER meant to be used as we do today (a religion). Anyone who calls themselves a Christian has been grafted into the Jewish bloodline, and is now Jew (in religion) and a follower of Yeshua as well.
---Leslie on 12/10/09|
Leon- are you to scared to hear the truth about the paganised religion you belong to. Are you like so many on this forum who will blindly follow the doctrines without looking at them. Will you refuse to look at the facts that your new test has been changed and played with so that it will fit the greco roman doctrine, and yet they didnt even do this very well. What you go leagalism is the very Torah of YHVH which Yeshua preached. Your the one who is afraid, not me
---wayne on 12/10/09|
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Read, study PROVERBS 8 & hear the voice of wisdom! Don't be deceived by the foolishness of the proud, arrogant, legalistic Nicolaitans (aka messianic israelite/netzari...ebionite heretics) referred to in Rev 2:2-6.
Wayne: Are you on CN to win converts to your religious legalism & /or is your goal simply to denigrate Christianity? What is it about Christianity you fear if it's false? Doesn't the truth always support (prove) itself regardless of the wickedness of men? Who do you say Jesus Christ is & how did he come to be?
AlwaysOn: "Descendants" are people who follow in a bloodline by natural birth. Did you mean "adherents" (followers of a particular WAY)? (2 Pt. 2)
---Leon on 12/10/09|
Pastor Jim, I agree with what you have said, Judaism itself has been touched with this.
Cluny- I do not need to make up a religion, your christian religion is the man made pagan religion. The Netzari have been around for centuries. Check your history
---wayne on 12/10/09|
Wayne, thanks for the info. After asking here, I read a little on Ebionites. What, if any, is the Netzari relationship with them?
Donna, yes, they were all Jews. But what I'm looking for are Jewish followers who did not follow Paul and who did not eventually come to be known as Christians. Not sure if any branched out or if the question is answerable or not, but it's always worth a try. :)
KarenD, a cult? I'm not sure I understand your point.
Earl, interesting about John the Baptist's followers. But I'm curious about those who DID follow, yet (maybe) continued in the faith, just not as Christian.
Pastor Jim, thanks for the Rev. 2:2 reference. I'm not sure that this is referring to Paul, but I will study it further.
---AlwaysOn on 12/10/09|
\\ They were and are known as Netzari. Im a Netzari priest. Our Pachid ( Overseer) is in Israel. We follow Yeshua as the Moshiach but look at paul as an apostate.\\
In other words, you're making up your own faith.
---Cluny on 12/9/09|
Alwayson, There are sects that follow this line. They base it mainly on REV2:2 "Message to Ephesus". Paul had troubles in Ephesus.
Wayne I agree with The GrecoRoman influence on Christianity. Modern Christianity follows the Sprit world above the Material world philosophy. Philsophies about every unknown of God. This the Hebrew did not do.
But it also influence the Jews since much of this Platoism/Stoic trends come from the LXX (250 BC) and we have no orginal Hebrew OT. Masoretic Text(500AD)
---PASTOR_JIM on 12/9/09|
Alwayson,good to hear you again.A part of your question is answerable.There was desciples of John the Baptist that never swung over to Jesus' leadership.
The gospel mentions it briefly.
Some will say Mohamedism is a religion based on it's own merits but as I understand it Mohamedism is a spinoff of some/part that transpired from John's and Jesus' teachings and Mohamed incorporating Mohamed's personal protest of foreigners-like blue eyed peoples.Their treatment of women did no honor to Jesus in this religion..Your specific question I am not sure.
---earl on 12/9/09|
No person living today knows the answer to this question as we were not alive back then. This one is going to be good. Sometimes you can just spot a cult so easily.
---KarenD on 12/9/09|
AlwaysOn, what a question to ask!!!!!
Nicodemus followed Jesus (secretly). Then there was Mary and Martha and Lazareth whom he stayed at their house frequently. Weren't all of His disciples Jewish also?
So yes, there were Jewish people who were followers of Yashua during his physical lifetime. Obviously Judas didn't follow Paul. But how could we know the answer to the rest of your question? If the tribes split up and went into foreign countries, how would we know where these descendants are today? It's a hard question to answer, wouldn't it be almost unanswerable UNLESS the Holy Spirit revealed this to you?
---Donna on 12/9/09|
They were and are known as Netzari. Im a Netzari priest. Our Pachid ( Overseer) is in Israel. We follow Yeshua as the Moshiach but look at paul as an apostate. We have always been a small group after rome tried to wipe us out. Plus in 318AD rome , the eastern orthodox, and all of thier children which would come out of them ( protestants) were excomunicated by the Yerushalim council for the greco roman doctrines they held to. Its in history but christians refuse to look any of this up. Yeshua said His flock would be small and scattered, not a world wide power. The christian religion is pagan and does not follow scripture, it follows greco roman traditions. So much for scripture alone.
---wayne on 12/9/09|