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Can A Christian Abuse Grace

Can a Christian abuse God's grace and if so, can you please give an example?

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Miche, MarkV:

There are many Biblical scholars who accept the Calvinism viewpoint and there are many Biblical scholars who accept the Arminianism viewpoint. There are also many Biblical scholars who believe that both viewpoints are evident within the Bible. I happen to agree within the last viewpoint. I think you are arguing over the two sides of the same coin.

It is easy to see both viewpoints when you consider the example of the disciples of Jesus. The disciples were chosen by God (Jesus) without merit of their own. Chosen for what reason they did not know. But yet, it was their own choice to follow Jesus and to continue to follow Jesus the rest of their life. Twelve made the choice but only eleven continued till the end.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/3/10

//You, Kathr, Exzucuh do not have to believe God is on the throne ruling the affairs of the world.//
Where/when have ANY of us stated this? Where is your proof?

God does rule the affairs of the world by allowing man to have self will. Otherwise, God is directly responsible for every bad thing that happens. The Bible says that temptation does not come from God nor does confusion or heresies .. NOTHING BAD comes from God.
When man gets bad things it is because they are reaping what they sowed. Man has a choice, Markv. You say it but you don't really believe it. You believe man is a robot when we are not.
By the way don't say you love me when you are stabbing me in the back with your lies and name calling.
---miche3754 on 2/3/10

Miche, I do not persecute anyone. You, Kathr, Exzucuh do not have to believe God is on the throne ruling the affairs of the world. I do not get angry at people I love. My love does not change. It demands nothing in return. Not even your obedience to the Truth. But when you refuse the Truth, God knows. If He wants you to know it, you will know it. He is in fact working in your life this moment. Only you think He works when you let Him. Nothing happens without Him permitting it, or allowing it to happen. Jesus said to Pilate, "Thou wouldst have no power against Me, except it were given thee from above" John 19:11. "A man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps" God is in control of everything.
---MarkV. on 2/3/10

The only way God can control everything is by destroying man.
Flesh rules and controls man and flesh is his god.
If man does not submit his flesh or what Jesus calls taking up your cross, He willingly defies God and believes and serves what ever he pleases.
God gives him over to his reprobate mind and he serves sin and worships the things of lust and carnality.
God could be in control of everything but because he is merciful he lets man destroy himself.
He offers him a way out if he will surrender his god the flesh and receive his Son to take it's place.
---exzucuh on 2/3/10

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you, if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Matthew 10:34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
---exzucuh on 2/3/10

Why is Markv so hateful to me? Did I insult him? Is it because I don't accept the Calvinism he is trying to pass off as truth?
He really believes that God already picked out who will be saved and God has damned the rest. I wonder how he feels knowing that maybe one of his grand children will among those God made to burn in hell, according to his doctrine. I am not saying all of what he says is wrong, but this part and his belief that God didn't give man self will is the BIG things I disagree with.
Is it just me that sees him persecute those who disagree with him or are there others?
And what did I really say to warrant his insult to me?
---miche3754 on 2/3/10

Miche, if you loved me you would not have talked to me the way you did. In fact, I told you many times I loved you, but that didn't matter to you. I tried to talk to you with kindness and mentioned it many times, but you don't understand kindness.
You want to believe you can take yourself out of the road to hell on your own, so be it. You must have been given something by God that He didn't give the others since they are going to hell. Maybe you are just smarter then they are, or maybe you got faith, where others didn't. Maybe it was your ability to understand, an ability others don't have, great, you can boast on that for a while.
---MarkV. on 2/3/10

You are not here to help anyone but your calvinistic views.
If you were trying to help, you would not talk to me the way you do.
You jumped down my throat because I praised someones teaching.
Of course God isn't forcing me because he gave me freewill, but wait, you don't believe in that.
I believe in the FULL truth of God's word.
You believe God made some destined for hell.
I believe God wants ALL to be saved and that those who aren't saved are damning themselves so they can't blame God for their destruction.
And I believe a person can abuse grace. Grace is hard on our flesh NOT the Spirit. The Spirit is what we are supposed to live in and follow which makes Grace easy. But you don't understand that.
---miche3754 on 2/3/10

Miche, bless you too. I was here to help you and I tried very much to be curtious to you, I also treated you different because I thought you wanted to learn. In fact I did that for a long time until you begin your dumb comments at me because you do not believe God is in Control of all things. You don't have to believe that at all. No one is forcing you. Not even God. In fact God might not want you to know for all I know. If that is the case you will never know. You do have many that think like you just as I have many that believe what I believe. In fact all of the protestants believed the same thing once, but many went back to salvation by grace through faith and works, the same doctrines taught in the RCC from where they came from.
---MarkV. on 2/3/10

Markv, What is your malfunction?
You are angry for me agreeing with others teaching but not agreeing with yours?
Yours is false.
You believe the Holy Spirit is given to a person BEFORE they call on Jesus to be saved.
And that is NOT what the word of God says in the Bible.
I study a lot and I also teach and I know a real teacher of God's word when I read one.
You are not it. Otherwise, people would understand and agree with your Calvinistic doctrine. Calvin is wrong.
People have the CHOICE to believe God. God doesn't force them.
Bless you for the insult. That means I am doing my job in Christ.
---miche3754 on 2/3/10

I must chime in here with MarkV.

Unmerited favor is exactly what God has given to us who have called upon the name of the Lord. No one deserves to be saved, now, then, or ever. There is none righteous, no not one. Grace is a gift from God given to us for His own glory:

2 Pet 1:3 "seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence."
---Mark_Eaton on 2/2/10

Miche, I don't do things so that you can appriciate me. In fact you are not even in my thoughts until you write. And what you say is not Truth so I just let it go since it is either a complain, or a judgment so I have to answer both of with judgment no more teaching for you. Miche, I read Scripture and know what God has to say, in the beginning I tried to teach you, then you sided with anyone against me and you took a different form even when I was right I was wrong in your eyes. To tell you the Truth, I am not afraid of either of you, For Greater is He that is in me then he who is in the world. What did the Lord say?
"The Lord said, He made the wicked for the Day of doom" That was His design in giving them being. Get it?
---MarkV. on 2/2/10

Okay, adding to the awesome teaching list is Char, and Lee.
Wonderful! and blessed teaching!
---miche3754 on 2/2/10

Romans 6:8-15 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: For in that he died, he died unto sin once:

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
---exzucuh on 2/1/10

Lee, great job of showing the tenses of "does not continue to sin," and the continuous action that is not part of the believer.
---Rod4Him on 2/1/10


People that kept Judaism were not the enemies of Jesus because they kept the Law. It was because they did not believe that he was the Son of God. And they used Judaism to condemn him to death. ///

Good points brother.
---Paul9594 on 2/1/10

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//Alright show us your scriptures that say you can live in sin and still be saved.

One who is born spiritually by the Holy Spirit will not continue to practice sin.

1Jo 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
John 2:1b

Those that continue to live in sin will experience the loving discipline of our Lord. Hebrews 12.

Christian mature in their walk with Christ, one does not simply add water & stir to have the final product.
---Lee1538 on 2/1/10

I see this as:
when we are not walking IN the Father's will-having the Holy Spirit IN US-will grieve.
When we come INTO His presence in prayer,His Light shines exposing where we are OUTSIDE of His will.
Repentance brings us back INTO Remission.
We are flesh,have weakness-may fall back outside in sin again.
Call on HIS NAME for HIS STRENGTH.He answers-HIS STRENGTH performs and conquers:HIS WORKS IN AND THROUGH US.This may be a process-it can take time:line upon line-precept by precept.
"HIS WORKS THROUGH US we can NOT boast of":all works will be judged.When surrendering to the Holy Spirit,God WORKS through us in ALL things.Our works will be judged,and our rodes provided will be from HIS WORKS ALONE:Glory is HIS.
---char on 2/1/10

Oh, and Markv, I don't appreciate the things you said about Kath on one of the other blogs.
Don't get upset with her for speaking the truth OR me for agreeing with her.
Instead open your eyes and heart and understand that the Calvinism you follow is false teaching. Come into the LIGHT!
---miche3754 on 2/1/10

I know miche. James totally condemn markv's mouth and tongue. Markv doesn't even have the maturity or discernment to KNOW IT!
---kathr4453 on 2/1/10

---MarkV. on 2/1/10 Alright show us your scriptures that say you can live in sin and still be saved. Show us where Jesus said
If he finds a servant when he returns and he is living in sin he will still go to heaven.
Show us where the tares will make it to heaven.
Show us where the 5 virgins got the door open later and they forgot to put it in the Bible.
Show us where Ananias and Sapphira really did not fall over dead because they sinned. Show us where Jesus did not throw Thyatira into a bed of tribulation and kill her children with death because they were in sin. Show us these things and prove the Gospel I preach is wrong.
---exzucuh on 2/1/10

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I see that Kath and Exzucuh are still teaching the TRUE word of God.
Amen and God bless those who teach this. Help them continue to be strong even under persecution from those who still believe in easy salvation.

God bless you both!

Oh, and Markv, I don't appreciate the things you said about Kath on one of the other blogs.
Don't get upset with her for speaking the truth OR me for agreeing with her.
Instead open your eyes and heart and understand that the Calvinism you follow is false teaching. Come into the LIGHT!
---miche3754 on 2/1/10

Exzucuh, Grace is the unmerited favor of God to give Life to a sinner. Saved by Grace through faith. Sorry Ex. you are not in the same gospel. It is not a half truth but the whole Truth of Eph. 2:8. Now you can wiggle around and put new meanings in passages but it will not change the Truth in Scripture.
---MarkV. on 2/1/10

i used to think that as long as we are saved, and beccause grace abounds, nothing i do could make me fall from grace. now i know better. a lot of christians think this way and its imperative that we do not see grace as a licence to sin else it could affect our eternal salvation.
---zoba on 2/1/10

There's no such thing as UNMERITED FAVOR. The idea of Unmerited favor constitutes of a gross concept of cheap Grace. There's no accountability whatsoever. Listen to the words of those who believe unmerited favor was bestowed on them.

To as many as RECEIVE HIM to them gave He the power to become the Sons of God AKA The New Birth. When I receive someone into my home, first the knock, THEN I HAVE to open the door and receive them in. GOD does not bust down the door of anyone's heart.

To say one just wakes up one day being born again having totally different thoughts and actions without even knowing they are born again is not the Gospel.

We're CHANGED through HIS WORD as WE obey THE WORD.
---kathr4453 on 2/1/10

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I believe a christian can abuse grace. When a christian repent of his/her sin and repeat the same sin over and over again. This is abusing God's grace. True repentance is when you repent and do not sin again. Doing so is taking God's grace for granted.

---mersh8386 on 2/1/10

Markv:Grace is defined as the unmerited favor of God,

Just like all half truths a half definition is not the truth. Grace is the unmerited favor of God to give power to the believer. A believer is a person that obeys by faith. and faith comes by hearing then acting on the word. Grace came by the faith of Jesus after he acted on the word of God by the sacrifice of himself. God gave him grace and raised him from the dead. Now the servant is not above his master, we must believe the word of Christ by faith and act on it to receive saving, resurrecting,grace.

---exzucuh on 2/1/10

Grace is defined as the unmerited favor of God, and if its unmerited, then none can claim it as their inalienable right. If Grace is unearned and undeserved, then none are entitled to it. If Grace is a gift, then none can demand it. Therefore, as salvation is by Grace, the free gift of God, then He bestows it on whom He pleases. Because salvation is by Grace, the very chief sinner is not beyond the reach of Divine mercy. "Because salvation is by Grace, boasting is excluded and God gets all the glory."
The boasting of man's works in salvation is the one sin many cannot let go. They want to get some glory out of their salvation.
---MarkV. on 2/1/10

Luk 15:11b-13... And he said, A certain man had two sons. And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

This parable of Jesus depicts a son who abused his father's grace as Christians may abuse God's.
The prodigal son abused his father's love. Yes. But the father still gave him the inhertance and waited, always hoping for his return. The consequences of the young's man's actions were themselves a punishment. And his homecoming was an occasion of celebration, not blame.
---Donna66 on 1/31/10

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Janze, I have read a few of your answers and they are great. Thank you so much for the impute and comments on Grace. Here on most blogs we hear Grace been conditional on man, or even today I read where someone said it causes many everything, as if it is a punishment to someone who is already going to hell. Anyways thank you and Blessings
---MarkV. on 1/29/10

Our understanding of grace can be clouded by those who have turned YHWH-YaH-(Aluhim)Grace into lasciviousness.(The Whole book of Jude reminds us of this).

We Praise him for his mercy and Grace.
He has given us-in this age-thru His Son: repentance into remission.The lack of its teaching is happening in this age but the day will come when the truth will be seen.In that day EVERY knee will bend and EVERY tongue confess yhwsho(Christ)as Lord-this means ALL:just and unjust.YaH is forgiving, just and a fair Father with His Children.
Phil 2:10-11
What does this mean?
...of some have compassion,making a difference:to others save with fear,pulling out of the fire:hating even the garment spotted by the fleah.
---char on 1/25/10

I agree with Lee, Kath, and Ex on this.
The Bible does say we can abuse grace and make a mockery of it.

By the way, I also really enjoyed ya'lls posts.
They were great and to the point.
---miche3754 on 1/23/10

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Faith with out works is dead and dead faith gets no grace

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Sin cannot rule your life if you are under Grace because Grace is divine influence and super abounding life changing power.
---exzucuh on 1/23/10

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The common dictionary definition of grace is that it is a "gift of God to humankind: the infinite love, mercy, favor, and goodwill shown to humankind by God, freedom from sin: the condition of being free of sin, e.g. through repentance to God".

Can grace be abused? Most certainly, since Scripture speaks of falling from grace thru seeking to be justified by the law.

Ga 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law, you have fallen away from grace.

---Lee1538 on 1/22/10

The Grace of God cannot be defined as unmerited favour. A favour, by definition, is an occasion, an event that is somehow marked by its distinction.

The Grace of God is all emcompassing! There is never a moment, in the life of the individual, when he is not experiencing that Grace! And although, the individual may not know or may not recognize the Grace of God in his life, that marvelous Grace is always there anyhow.

The idea that a human being can advantage of God's Grace is indicative of how human our view of Grace is. No man can abuse Grace. He can only abuse himself. Anyone who thinks he is getting with something because of God's Grace is merely deceiving himself.
---Janze on 1/22/10

Well here are a few verses that say YES!

We can also INSULT the Spirit of GRACE. Heb 10

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Hebrews 12:15
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled,

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 1/22/10

Believing you can abuse God's grace is like saying you can waste God's love. Impossible!
---Deb on 1/21/10

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Ed // know you being a teacher of the word (Rabbi), understand if you cause someone to SIN that person SINS not, but the person that caused it SINS twice.

I really wonder if you know what you are talking about, you sound very confused.

I teach people they should be all they can be for Christ and whatever they do should be for His glory.

Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

However, what you teach is sin really is not.

For instance, you cannot find a single verse in the NT that states breaking the old Jewish Sabbath is a sin.

Suggest that you find mentors that know both the Bible as well as its Author.
---Lee1538 on 1/20/10

Ed - Do I really pick what commandments I will observe?

No I simply abide in Christ and follow Him for He has become my 'righteousness, redemption and sanctification' 1 Cor. 1:30.

As to my salvation if you had better mentors than old Ellen White you would know that salvation is strictly what one received by grace thru faith, and not at all by works. 'for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works'.

As to communal worship on the Lord's Day - Sunday, you have the right to do whatever you wish even on Saturday - that day dedicated to the Roman god Saturnus.

I pray you may come to know both the Bible & its Author, and be released from the bondage of legalism.
---Lee1538 on 1/20/10

Yes be a law unto yourself. I think that the people of the earth have the freedom to do and chose what they wish to believe. I am not under the law nor do I agree with the Orthodox Jew about the law. You say they can't stand the freedom you have, GOD forbid for that would be a SIN. I know you being a teacher of the word (Rabbi), understand that if you cause someone to SIN that person SINS not, but the person that caused it SINS twice. May peace be with you.
---Ed on 1/20/10

It was not necessary to tell either the Jews or the Gentiles to observe moral law as there already was a consensus on what constituted moral law.

Anyone who has studied anthropology can state there is a common morality found within nearly all religions that condemn such things as stealing, adultery, murder, disobedience to parents, etc.

Any student of the Bible who has studied Romans 2:14 has to believe the Gentiles who did not have the old Torah law, actually fulfilled the requirements of the law provided they followed their conscience.

Those promoting legalism simply cannot stand the freedom given to those in Christ but seek to sterilize the Christian by bringing them back into the bondage of the old torah law.
---Lee1538 on 1/20/10

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Lee1538//Sorry there are just TOO MANY verses in the New Testament telling us we are saved by grace alone and we must walk by faith in His Spirit.
And it say we must keep the commandments also but you pick and chose the ones you will keep!! This is a true sign of WORKS OF THE FLESH. Do you know which lord you worship? Is it Jupiter? He was always worshiped on Sunday. You say we hate you if we don't agree with you. Wrong, if I did not care about your salvation I would not even comment on what you say. Many shall be called, but few shall be chosen.
---Ed on 1/20/10

Paul9594 //and we not steal, covet, murder, dishonor your parents,void sabbath.

While you believe the church is still under the Old Covenant, our Lord established a new covenant (not a renewed covenant), a covenant UNLIKE the one He made at Mt. Sinai, a covenant with ALL the commandments of the Decalogue EXCEPT the Sabbath.

We are to follow ALL the moral laws otherwise there will be conflict with the indwelling Spirit and His Church.

Sorry there are just TOO MANY verses in the New Testament telling us we are saved by grace alone and we must walk by faith in His Spirit.

With you soteriology, you will certainly hear Mt. 7:23 Depart from me you workers of inquity as clearly you can never obey all the law James 2:10.
---lee1538 on 1/20/10

Paul9594 - //this what you teach others? Shame on you.

The shame is on you, not on those who rightfully handle the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15) as you now accuse those who would love the Lord of not observing moral law.

//Like the God of the commentaries!

We can certainly see you truly hate those whom the Lord has called into the ministry of teachings since they totally destroy your argument from Scripture that Christians must adhere to the old Torah laws instead of abiding in Christ.

But such is the plight of those who lack the indwelling of His Spirit, perferring instead to judge and condemn others.

When are you going to turn away from your false beliefs?
---Lee1538 on 1/19/10

U said:
we note that Gentile believers were NOT told to follow the old Jewish Torah law but simply "to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood".///

and we not that you steal, covet, murder, dishonor your parents,void sabbath.

And you simply must have other Gods before Him?

LIke the God of the commentaries!

and u simply say His name in vain?

Seems like your in bondage to sin.

Thanks to your incorrect application of Acts 15!

Is this the lawless Christ image,walk you have?

Is this what you teach others? Shame on you.

Repent and be grafted in to Renewed Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31!
---Paul9594 on 1/19/10

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Was the issue at the Jerusalem council that one cannot be saved apart from being circumcised and following the law of Moses?

Yes, indeed, however the conclusion was that Gentile believers were not saved by the law of Moses but by faith alone.

Acts 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.

And we note that Gentile believers were NOT told to follow the old Jewish Torah law but simply "to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood".
---Lee1538 on 1/19/10

Paul9594 - while we agree following the law does not save anyone since one is saved by grace thru faith alone in Christ.

Those trained in the Word of Truth, disagree with your interpretation of Acts 15 as the issue was whether one had to convert to Judaism to be a genuine Christian.

Christian are to walk by His Spirit.

Romans 8:3f For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Ga 2:19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.
---Lee1538 on 1/19/10


Issue was salvation by circumcision AND keeping the Law. Some Pharisess did not believe in the Messiah, they would erase him and WOULD tell them to be circumcised and to keep the Law to be saved! This is incorrect, no one saved by keeping the Law.


Gentiles had no need to keep sacrificial laws, replaced by their sin offering with FAITH: Christ!

The issue was not walking after the Law of righteousness in its ORIGINAL spiritual intent after entering salvation.
This is why Paul asks, the Christians:
Do we make the law of no effect because of our Faith? No!! (Romans 3:31)
---Paul9594 on 1/19/10

jody //He may very well forgive them but there is a threat that their consciences will become dull and they could drift away entirely.

I really wonder if a genuine child of God can simply 'drift away entirely" as the love of the Father would see to his chastisement.Hebrews 12:5f

The problem as I see in being disobedient is that the Christian can become unfruitful as well as miss out of many of the blessings the Lord would have for them.
---Lee1538 on 1/19/10

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Yes. Many Christians abuse the grace of God by engaging in activities that they know are sinful while believing that God will forgive them. He may very well forgive them but there is a threat that their consciences will become dull and they could drift away entirely. We must not frustrate the grace of God as we do reap what we sow. To the flesh, corruption and to the spirit life. The Bible says that a believer does not go on willfully sinning because he cannot. We all stumble but to live a lifestyle of sin is very dangerous. If you are truly a child of God then you can expect disipline which is not fun but necessary for Christian growth. "work out your salvation with fear and trembling".
---jody on 1/18/10

Everytime we deliberately sin. We abuse grace. Christians have to resist temptaion and walk in holiness. We will fall down enough without deliberately sinning. God forgives and is merciful. If we ask for forgiveness, He does so. But there will come a time that this will not be so. We need to constantly strive to do the Will of God and walk in the footsteps of Jesus. He gives us the strength and ability to do just that. For His honor and glory.
---Robyn on 1/19/10

Paul9594 //ISSUE is: Circumcision on all Gentiles FOR salvation! The >> WHOLE <<< Law of Moses as TRUE issue is read into this passage WHEN IS NOT.

Acts 15:5 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, It is necessary to circumcise them AND AND AND to order them to keep the law of Moses.

The issue was not circumcision specifically, but whether Gentiles had to become Jewish and observe all the laws of Judaism. Circumcision was the inital requirement in becoming a convert to Judaism, everyone should know that.

Sorry but you really need to stop reading those apostate Bibles and heed what the saints of His church has been teaching for the past 2000 years.
---Lee1538 on 1/18/10

"if you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons"

All those who have been saved by grace through faith, do not practice sin, but when they do sin, they are chastened by God. If you are not chasten you are illegitimate and not sons.
---MarkV. on 1/17/10

---miche3754 on 1/18/10

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1 John 3:5-10 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins, and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
---exzucuh on 1/17/10

The word of God is the only authority. The redefinition of God's word and lowering it's standard is Antichrist. The Antichrist is those that walk away from the teachings of Jesus because they are offended. They add to and take away from his teaching. They create another Jesus and another Gospel that agrees with the wisdom and teachings of the carnal world. There are 66 books in the Bible, the number of man is 6. when man corrupts the word
it is represented by the metaphorical number 666 that means that man has created an image of the beast out of the word of Christ who is the image of God.
---exzucuh on 1/17/10

Donna, there is no one who is sinless even if they believe it. All come short of the glory of God. And if they say they have not sinned the Truth is not in them. For all are in need of Christ. Who in the flesh was the sinless. For the Word of God says,
"if you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons"

All those who have been saved by grace through faith, do not practice sin, but when they do sin, they are chastened by God. If you are not chasten you are illegitimate and not sons.
---MarkV. on 1/17/10

Gods grace in human terms,and thinking is abused by sin,but his grace is his love,which is freely given to all who accept jesus.The early church,namely the pope, at one time would sell sainthood, as a means of raising money,a definite abuse of Gods grace.You give your love freely to your children,you would do almost anything for them,save an illegal act,or one that would be against the word for them.As human beings we all have abused the grace of God,many by rejecting his son.
---tom2 on 1/17/10

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Abuse of Atonement. The Jews did the same kind of sin in the old testament: God gave them remedy for sin, which was to sacrifice an animal, so the people abused this provision and they lived all their days in sin with the knowledge, "all I have to do is kill an animal and God will forgive me". They would line up and kill hundreds of animals in sacrifices all day long, rather than be good so that no animal needed to be sacrificed. Please Read- Isaiah 1:11-17
---Eloy on 1/17/10

NonChristians frequently abuse grace, but Christians whom love their Christ will not. lit.Gk: "No power for them once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, and fell away, to further renew in correction: for thmselves over-crucify the Son of God, and deride publicly." Hebrews 6:4-6. A sinner can say they are a Christian continually, but their daily rotten fruits show otherwise that they are nonChristian instead. When Christ saves a person and forgives them and restores them to holiness, then it is sin for that one to go back and serve the Egyptians again. For you cannot serve two masters, but only one.
---Eloy on 1/16/10

Children of the Father:

Recall, Abram Took back His wife from Egypt, he left with much wealth, acquired because of Sarai (Bride) Genesis 20.

When the children of Israel left Egypt, by the Fathers hand, they left with much wealth which they had taken from the Egyptians.

Father says to u:
Isa 46:10 (Father) declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure, This is another reason u dont want to get rid of Torah but Study it!

Where is the Bride of Christ Today? His bride is In Egypt mix with the worlds ways because of too much grace and not keeping His ways!!!
---Paul9594 on 1/15/10

Dear Children of the Father:

Learn the Secrets of The Torah, the apostasy wants to destroy.

Is there anything new under the sun?

That which was shall be that which was done shall be done! Eccl. 1:9
That which was is and our Father seeks the things of the Past/ that is which is pursued!! Eccl. 3:15

Genesis 12
Famine in Canaan caused Abram to descend with Sarai into Egypt.

In Genesis 42:5
a famine in Canaan caused Jacob to send his sons to Egypt and ultimately forced the entire family to descend into Egypt.

Abram went to Egypt to sojourn there. The children of Israel "sojourned" in Egypt.

The famine of Genesis 12 and Genesis 42 were both characterized as very severe.
---Paul9594 on 1/15/10

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Children of the Father:
More Secrets of Torah!

Before arriving in Egypt, Abram Hid Sarai true identity as His wife. Thus, when they arrive, the Egyptians do not know Sarai is Abram's wife.

In the story of the Exodus, initially, the Egyptians do not know that the Hebrews are the bride of the Husband.

Just as King Gerar, took Sarai for his own possession, so it was that Pharaoh took Israel as his possession by enslaving them.

The Father sent plagues on King Gerar and his land because of his possession of Sarai.
In the Exodus account, The Father sent plagues against Pharaoh and the land of Egypt because he possessed [through slavery] Israel. In both cases, the result was the release of the bride!
---Paul9594 on 1/15/10

You cannot judge Tiger woods he is not a christian and he did not fall from grace he is a Buddhist. And needs salvation.
---exzucuh on 1/15/10

The word grace is abused all the time by the media. The latest fall from grace was Tiger Woods. Every time a movie star or a well know sports star is caught sinning, they fall from grace. Just another way the adversary cheapens the word grace. Paul said in Galatians 5:4 that those who try to justify themselves by law (works) have fallen from grace. Paul in Romans 7 explains when a true child of God sins its their old nature the flesh which sin dwells within doing the sinning not their new nature the Holy Spirit the seed of God one without sin and cannot sin. Every day our flesh wages war against our Spirit. A child of God does not intentionally abuse God's grace.
---Bob on 1/15/10

I can criticize others and imagine how to control them, instead of being in God's grace having me care for any evil person, at all, and not let evil people have power over me to decide how I am > "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

2 Corinthians 12:7-15 > Paul had that "thorn in the flesh", and was trying to use prayer to get Jesus to do a convenient miracle of making that "messenger of Satan" go away. But Jesus said, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." I'd say Paul needed to get more into God's grace, of *love* (Romans 5:5) having him mainly enjoying God while loving any and all people, with hope for anyone.
---Bill_bila5659 on 1/15/10

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Revelation 3:3-5
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard,
and hold fast, and repent.
If therefore thou shalt not watch,
I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour
I will come upon thee.
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments,
and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment,
and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Unless Christians repent in America Judgment will begin in the House of the Lord. He will return for a spotless and Holy church not a church in sin.
---exzucuh on 1/15/10

Pastor Jim, what you're failing to see is what more_excellent_way saw: God looks upon the heart of a person and judges by the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

You type all caps because you want to be heard, but I found NO mercy or compassion in your response.

No one, not even myself, ever realized why I mouthed off to people until I cried out to the Lord,what's wrong with me? Then he revealed because I was physically abused by 3 adults from when I was six years old, my mouth became my defense. DID THAT STOP GOD FROM LOVING ME? NO. The outward actions are a result of what's going on inside and abuse is serious, but my heart never changed towards God. "THOU ART THE GOD WHO SEES" (abuse, physical beatings, etc.,).
---Donna on 1/15/10

God told Moses to place the blood on the door posts so the death angel would pass over.Each household had to do this themselves. Do you think they would have been saved if they decided all they had to do was sit around and believe he would pass over. Would the Red sea have parted if they just believed it would. No! Aaron had to obey God and stretch forth the rod over the water. James says that you have to prove your faith to God. God says believe Jesus is the Son of God, he says repent, he says be baptized, he says live as if you are the body of Christ. And then you will be putting the blood on the doorposts just like Israel did. You will be obeying God by faith.
---exzucuh on 1/15/10


Most so called "Christians" believe you are saved by grace and now lets go have Potluck!

In other words they believe thats all you need and they just go on without even studing the word etc. WILLFUL IGNORANCE!!!

Some even say... a Christian should be Cheerful and bubbly.


All you need to do is look at ALL those who were saved by grace in scripture and how they suffered for Christ after.


---PASTOR_JIM on 1/15/10

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---more_excellent_way : Your response melted me and has made me cry. It is a very tender and loving response and you are right on!

Except that back then I thought I was loving the Lord and I was. I abstained from sin (fornication) and yet my mouth (because I was abused as a child by 3 adults), my mouth became my defense. It has taken the Lord years to change me and now I love just keeping my mouth shut.

But ohhhhhh how right on you melted me, my heart and brought tears to my eyes that are falling down my face right now (((((big hug to you)))) and thank you for being so gentle with me. Okay I am fully crying now. Love all of you here. We are truly God's kids, amen?
---Donna on 1/15/10



---exzucuh on 1/15/10

mima said:"A person can abuse God's grace but he can never lose God's grace".
Amen to that brother.
---JIM on 1/15/10

I think what you are calling "abuse of God's grace" is called by classical Christian spiritual writers, "presumption of God's mercy."

This has always been considered a forerunner of the sin against the Holy Spirit.
---Cluny on 1/15/10

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First let me say I am very impressed with this question.
The answer is yes. I came abusing Gods grace every time I do something that I need to repent of. A person can abuse God's grace but he can never lose God's grace. This fact will be the principal cause that we will thank the Lord Jesus Christ, praise and worship him as the ages roll. This is my first post this morning and I wish to say thank you thank you thank you Lord Jesus.
---mima on 1/15/10

Without any further explanation of your situation, it sounds like you are realizing how gracious The Lord has been in your life and you feel bad that you are not doing anything in return.

It is impossible to do anything that is so meaningful as anything The Lord has ever done. The Lord has noticed your love for Him and our journey with Him means learning humility upon humility.

Other people will be jealous that you feast on The Lord's bounty (enjoy His grace), so they will call it "abuse", "gluttony", etc..

Now any good that you do will be out of the goodness of your spirit and only when you are a willing/cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 9:7
"God loves a cheerful giver".
---more_excellent_way on 1/15/10

"Can a Christian abuse God's grace..?
Yes, abuses in the sense of " turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness," or using one's freedom " for a cloak of maliciousness." Grace can also be frustrated by men thinking that the righteousness of God can be obtained and/or attained through the works of the law. The worst abuse of grace is to have "done despite unto the Spirit of grace" by trampling "under foot the Son of God," counting His sacrificial covenant which sanctifies the believer as "an unholy thing." Which of course grieves the Holy Spirit of God, whereby we are sealed unto the day of redemption.
---joseph on 1/15/10

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