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Perfect Permissive Will Of God

I was talking to someone, who talked about two wills.
Does God have two wills, a perfect one and a permissive one?

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 ---TheSeg on 1/23/10
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Amen AMEN Kath! Your last post was wonderful and very true.
We have to realize we brought and bring death on ourselves by exactly what you stated.
Again, Wonderful teaching!
God bless you my sister and keep up the good work!
---miche3754 on 2/9/10

Kathr, your god cannot do much, my God can do all things. That is the difference between your believes and mine. Your god determines nothing, my God determines everything. Throughout the whole course of events there is progress towards a predetermined end. It was no accident that brought Rebecca to the well to welcome Abrahams servant Gen.24, or that sent Joseph into Eygypt Gen. 45:8, God meant it for good, or guided Pharaoh's daughter to the ark among the flags Exe. 2, or later, directed the millstone that crushed Abimelech's head Judges 9:53, or winged the arrow shot at a venture to smite the king in the joints of the armor 1 Kings 22:34. Every historical event is treated as an item in the orderly carrying out of an underline Divine purpose.
---MarkV. on 2/9/10

Well put kathr4453, on 2/8/10!
---Nana on 2/8/10

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way, and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life

---MIchael on 2/8/10

Christ died for all, is another Jesus? See I only know one!
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I shouldnt believe this?

Then, Christ is not saving everyone, right!
But, only the worthy! Then, tell me, who is worthy?
I know, there no one! Unless we speak in the love of God, so that this love should abound!

Then, we speak of false prophets, but stand right next to them and defending them.
You understand unbelief is sin! Then you must also be saying you are not guilty of this.
Yet God said, before me you are!

Why, if God made heaven, why was there an angel measuring it?
---TheSeg on 2/8/10

-- God determines when, where, and under what circumstances, each individual of our race shall be born, live, and die, whether it shall be male or female, white or black, wise or foolish. God is no less sovereign in the distribution of His favors.
---MarkV. on 2/4/10

To say God determined that a Child born out of incest or rape was determined by God is not true. In the OT if anyone committed fornication and/or became with child out of wedlock, they were STONED. So man's free will brought death upon himself in this area.

This is why God gave LAWS....and why disobedience brought death. HIS WORD is Sovereign...and His word was Thou shall not!

God does NOT determine a birth and then MURDER what He determined.
---kathr4453 on 2/8/10

Seg, unbelief is sin, God commands all to believe. God can command no less. He is perfect a just God and a Savior i.e. redeemer just as Christ told the women caught in adultery go sin no more she is a sinner and will always be a sinner.
Concerning the world Jesus telling Nicodemus that salvation was not meant for the Jews only but also the whole world is always comprised of the redeemed Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book and to open its seals, for You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation.
just as Christ prayed not for the world Jn17
---steven-rem7000 on 2/6/10

Seg there are MANY false prophets that say the are christians, "wolves in sheeps clothing" To believe Christ died for all is to believe in another Jesus. It would mean his death didnt accomplish anything
(though "it is Finished") and that ones faith makes the differences between heaven and hell. That is unbiblical and certain death. God will bring His children under the sound of HIS gospel.
This is too believers 2:13 because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: The gospel reveals Gods righteousness Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
---steven-rem7000 on 2/6/10

It's perfect, that all I see.
That you believe on Jesus Christ (the word of God)

The lord Jesus Christ, die for the sins of the world.

All power is given unto him in heaven and on earth.
*Everything to do with anything!

The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
*So the father is not judging you.

If any man hear my words, and believe not,
I judge him not!
*Not even disbelievers are judge!

For, I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
*He's not judging you!

But, be watchful!
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
---TheSeg on 2/4/10

The fact is, that God determines when, where, and under what circumstances, each individual of our race shall be born, live, and die, whether it shall be male or female, white or black, wise or foolish. God is no less sovereign in the distribution of His favors. He does what He will with His own. To some He gives riches, to others honor, to others health, to others certain talents for music, oratory, art, finance, etc. Others are poor, unknown, born in dishonor, the victims of disease, and live lives of wretchedness. Some are placed in Christian lands where they receive all the benefits of the Gospel, others live and die in the darkness of heathenism. Some are brought through faith unto salvaton, others are left to perish in unbelief.
---MarkV. on 2/4/10

Seg, no matter how you believe, that God chooses or that man chooses Christ, you cannot escape the fact that it is God who saves. In the end, salvation is a work of God. The best illustration, in the New Testament of a sinner coming and praying the "sinners prayer" is the publican, found in Luke 18, who said, "God be merciful to me a sinner"
And I believe we have to understand that salvation is God's prerogative. It is not automatically mine because I articulate a formula with my lips, it is mine only if God graciously grants it to me.
---MarkV. on 2/4/10

With regards to the original blog question:

Don't we ALL have these same kinds of "wills" ourselves? That is, an idea about how we want things to work out ideally, and also a general idea of things that we don't really like, but we are content to live with (and conversely, an idea of things that we find totally unacceptable)?
---StrongAxe on 2/4/10

Steve, let me ask you. Did The Lord, Jesus Christ give his life for everyone?
It would seem to me, someone starting a walk of faith. Heading, God going to pick and choose only who he wants, no matter what you believe. Would make his death a waste, why believe, If it cant change anything? Dare I say it? Why even preach the gospel of hope!

I believe faith can do anything. When he said "if you have faith and doubt not, if you say to this mountain be removed." Do you think he was talking about a mountain made of dirt and stone? You guy are not the only ones, to look at me. Because I cant believe what you say. There a line!
---TheSeg on 2/3/10

God bless you, and keep you safe.
You said People go to hell coz God sends them there for their wages.
This would be the wages of sin, right.

You also said It seems I have another gospel.
Maybe you right, because in the one I have, it says he die for the sins of the world. This is the whole world, everyone. Not just those that believe! So, then it cant be your sins.

He also said He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, (not because of sin, but) because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(He is the resurrection and life!)

Who the one condemning them?
---TheSeg on 2/3/10

I find God's grace scriptural according to HIS will. He set HIS LOVE on a people and not on another people. They are his creatures to as HE WILLS. It seems you have another gospel.. Jesus came to save "his people" from "their" sins, those the Father gave him. Jesus is responsible for all their salvation. He is the Author and Finisher of their faith (GRACE). God has declared it from ancient times. Jesus represented them and satisfied law and justice on "their behalf bearing their iniquitys. God hung him on a cross for their sins. He did not justify everybody. People are not in hell for which Christ propitiated for, they are in a state of justification and life. People go to hell coz God sends them there for their wages.
---steven-rem7000 on 2/3/10

Take the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. These will be destroyed, right! I mean, well not that I mean, but that you read. They will be destroyed, that why he made them, Right. For destruction! It cant be to show, the vessels of mercy the riches of his glory.

Now in the law, Moses or God whoever, told the people. Anyone committing adultery will be stone to dead, right. But when they brought an adulterous to him, Christ said, well you know.
What did Christ show them, that the law couldnt? And that just the thing, what is Christ saying that we dont hear.

MarkV, I would be a fool to believe, God word can come back void!
The question should be, why?
---TheSeg on 2/2/10

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Seg, I am not sure that you have read Scripture from the beginning, because it seems you have missed a lot. In fact so much you cannot tell the God we have. Did you not read,
"The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes even the wicked for the day of doom"
Proverbs 16:4.
The Lord God decided to make certain people who would be wicked for the day of doom. That God made us, not for our sakes, but for Himself, not for our own happiness, but for His glory is, repeatedly affirmed in Scripture. Rev. 4:11.
And in Romans we read, "For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth"
---MarkV. on 2/2/10

steven-rem7000, why don't you respond to TheSeg's question. WHY was the Law added if all were already condemned in Adam 1's sin.

Why was the CROSS necessary if God can just have mercy on who he wants according to His good humor and what ever mood He may have been in a that moment.

God condemned SIN when Jesus went to the cross. That is the ONLY thing GOD has condemned. Jesus took GOD's WRATH and died in our place.

Now my friends God through Jesus Christ offers LIFE again from the dead! You are already dead and condemned through Adam's sin.

AND steven 7000 whatever....when you completely understand Romans 9-11 we'll talk!
---kathr4453 on 2/2/10

Argue w God, Kath
God willed (past tense) to save, kill and damn> He loves "A" people and the rest are reprobate. God says, I'am repeating as you said, a witness of the truth. I say the WHOLE TRUTH! Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might display My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth." Ex. 9:16
Rom 9:18 So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.

1Sa 15:3 Now go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
---steven-rem7000 on 2/2/10

Kath.. You forgot to add a "host" also as God has a "host" in heaven. I don't see your point other than it seems you are angry. Why are you yelling at me? I can only say my God is THE sovereign God and those whom he makes himself known to glorify him.
Heb 8:10 Because this is the covenant which I will covenant with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord, giving My Laws into their mind, and I will write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." <
Heb 10:17 also He adds, "I will not at all still remember their sins" and their lawlessnesses. MT-Jer. 31:33, 34
---steven-rem7000 on 2/2/10

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Not sure what your trying to get at seg..

The reason for the law is shown in Scripture. No one not one could ever keep it, except "ONE" that is why the gospel points to Jesus Matt1:21

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
---steven-rem7000 on 2/2/10

If God (as you say willed to dam) why was the law added?
Why would he send you a savior, it was a done deal, we were condemned already!

Look at the simplicity of a stop sign, a law made by man. So people can cross the street in safety.
All you have to do is stop before it and give them a break, even this cant be done. By man!

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested.
When you cross the street, wouldnt you want cars to stop for you?
Do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

As simple as I am, I can see something here. Not understood by most!
God Bless
---TheSeg on 2/1/10

--->People do not believe he wills to damm someone as he did Pharaoh and a HOST of others. -----steven-rem7000 on 1/30/10

STEVEN-REM7000, which Pharaoh did God damn? The pharaoh that Joseph knew or the one Moses encountered. God did not just damn the Pharaoh that Moses encountered for no reason.

And there arose a king in Egypt that knew not Joseph...or Joseph's God. God blessed that Pharaoh and Egypt..why, because that Pharaoh honored Joseph's God!!! and because of that, GOD BLESSES that Pharaoh and Egypt.

Let's tell the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH!!! That's the true definition of a WITNESS!
---kathr4453 on 2/1/10

Yes Mark, this dumb remark!
Shows the god they know, no! But the one they think he is!
For, if a man is surrounded by fire, there would he have to be?
Surely he cannot be in this world!

Was it not Steve who said (he wills to dam.) Where do you get this stuff?
Was it not the lord himself, who said!
I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

So, if the lord came to save the world. Why should I believe otherwise?
Because I can understand how he could be. So should I doubt it!
Because, of me or you or Steve or anyone?

Anything you ask the lord believing, he said! That I will do!
A promise!
---TheSeg on 2/1/10

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Steven-rem #2: you are correct also in your answer of what God is doing in the lives of everyone. It is also true that many here have recreated in their minds a god who is exactly as they like him to be. Anything outside of those thoughts, they will not admit as true. Even when God Himself tells us in Scripture how He controls everything. I believe their confusion lies in their definition of God's Love. They have that one so perfect that none of His other attributes can exist. Just think, a God who cannot control or stop a fire as his post suggest with a man waking up and finding himself in a fire. They make this dumb remarks to show the god they know, not the one from Scripture.
---MarkV. on 2/1/10

Steven, all of God's wills are His wills. And they all work according to His will. No one can change His will, because if they could it would not be His will, it would be someone's elses will. So you are correct in that part.
We know God is sovereign, and that His will can never be frustrated, so we can sure that nothing happens over which He is not in control. He at least must "permits" or "allows" whatever happens to happen. Yet even when God passively permits things to happen, He chooses to permit them in that He always has the power and right to intervene and prevent the actions and events of this world. Insofar as He lets things happen, He has "willed" them in this certain sense.
---MarkV. on 1/31/10

if someone wakes up and find himself surround by a wall of fire.
He should say to himself, I am here because of God, It his fault. Right!
I did nothing wrong! I didnt turn away from God. It was he who, turned away from me.
I always saw him before my face.
Stop looking in the mirror!

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Read on!
---TheSeg on 1/31/10

God is sovereign or he is not GOD. Does not really matter how you think He should be. HE IS GOD and there is no other GOD beside (s) HIM
People do not believe he wills to damm someone as he did Pharaoh and a HOST of others. Well, he has decreed the reprobate and the fallen angles before the world began to an eternal hell. He says it and people do not believe it coz the god of this world has blinded them> Yes GOD has said it and they believed not
---steven-rem7000 on 1/30/10

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Jody -- I took seq's comment as a comparison between God's love and ours.
Our love is always conditional, however much we may deny it. Over the years, I have cared for, and about, many considered "unlovable" by most of society. It didn't happen often, but it was entirely possible that my love for them could be squelched by some action of theirs.

If I loved them with God's love, such a thing could never happen. HIS love is constant, unshakable, unconditional. We do nothing to bring it about. It is part of His nature.

By our human nature such love is "undoable". Only by God expressing Himself through us can we even approach love like that.
---Donna66 on 1/30/10

Yes, everything is a gift from God!
For even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

But even our love has limitations, doesnt it?
We put condition on it. So can this be a real true love?
Some would have you believe God does too. This is not so.

They still say things like, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
They want to see a change in you, still looking for a sign or a wonder.
Never seeing or knowing the things which are freely given by God.
Always looking and never finding. But are the first to talk.

God is love a pure love and his love has no limits.
It is Perfect!
---TheSeg on 1/30/10

The Seq 1/29. I do hope your point is that every attribute is a gift from God. Your including LOVE as "undo-able" leaves me wondering. Without love "you are nothing". It must be somehow doable. I know that I do love and love allot:) I actually love the so called unlovable. Yes, and I pray in the Spirit for those who intentionally try to offend or hurt me. I am sure that I am not alone and that there are many others who freely love. God has been very gracious to me. Maybe that is why. God Bless:)
---jody on 1/29/10

No, no and no. His will is that you "know him."

Permissive is ye and perfect is he and they cannot stand together.
---larry on 1/29/10

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The one we cannot do that's, the sinning one.
For as it is written, all have sinned.
Then I guess the one we can do, is love each other.
I am smiling because, you know, as well as me, this is undoable also.
For this is, the law and the prophets. And it also is perfect.
So tell me what is it, we can do? You yourself know, the answer is nothing.
For it is written, without me you can do nothing.
Maybe, asking him to forgive our sins, no! Didn't he die for those?
There are many things, I can forgive, things I don't see as sins.
But the things, I ask him to help me with, are those which I see!
God Bless
---TheSeg on 1/29/10

God has one will! Period HE is immutable, changes not!
God permissive will, is his will same as his will His will is His will it will be done. Why coz he willed it or it would not happen. Adam fall oz of Gods will, he willed the fall and did not have to come up with a contingency plan. The devil did not over rule Gods will, he did exactly as God had before ordained.
the lamb slain before the world
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
---steven-rem7000 on 1/29/10

Seg #2: you are welcome to believe in just one will of God. There is no problem with me in you believing that. In fact I don't have a problem with anyone believing that. Each one of us has a responsibility for our own actions. The Spirit moves us differently in many areas and reveal's to us somethings that maybe He doesn't reveal to others for certain purposes. I know for a fact that God is in control and His will will be done as "He declares it" and that no one can stay His hand. That is absolute. But also know there is a hidden will of God that He is "not please to declare." Only He knows what it is He will do with certain humans and when He will do it. Scripture declares only those He wish's for us to know.
---MarkV. on 1/29/10

Seg, I tell you why, because if you believe Scripture as it is written, God say's
"He does according to His will in the armies of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and no one can stay His hand"
and yet we know His will is that we are holy, that we don't sin, that we love one another, and we do disobey that will. One you cannot and one you can. If there is only one will, then Scripture contradicts itself. And Scripture does not contradict. It is not the same will Seg. It isn't about man making something up, but about man that want to interpret Scripture correctly. Now, if a person doesn't care, then anything goes. Contradict the Bible and don't worry about the Truth.
---MarkV. on 1/29/10

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Why would he need another?
Why can't we just accept that which is perfect.
Why does man always feel the need to add to it?
And say, this is the explanations of it.
Was he not clear enough in, I will come to you!
Maybe he wasn't loud enough, many still don't hear.

He is, was and will be the will of the father.
This I see, the father gave all judgments to the son.
He likewise gave all judgments to the children.

Of sin, because they believe not on me!
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more!
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged!

It's the perfect way!
Hung, by your own hand.
---TheSeg on 1/29/10

John 6:39,40 1 Thessalonians 4:3 Hebrews 2:4 Hebrews 10:9 1 Peter 1:2:15 1 Timothy 2:4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth.

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. Be led, walk, and live by the fruits of the Holy Spirit and LET YOUR LIGHT SHINE BEFORE MAN!
---Bob on 1/29/10

What are we really talking about here? Gods plan as it relates to His decisions in the lives of His children? Surely God does not change His overall plan but He does love His children enough to work with them on an individual basis.To me, it is not a show of two wills but more about His nature which is very tolerant, loving and gracious along with fair.Working with disobedient children is within His will and I cannot see it as a separate or second will.He knows what we are going to do or think before we do or think it.He also knows what His own response to it will be.Maybe we/I are/am splitting hairs here but I just cannot see almighty God in the light as split in any way. One God/One will.He loves us.Thats it in a nutshell for me. Blessings:)
---jody on 1/29/10

Seg, I have heard a few make the same statment that God only has one will. I have to disagree again because as we know some are perfect, others are not. One will cannot be changed by any human "He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand" That is one will. The second, the will of God is that man not sin, which is written in our hearts, is a will that people have the power to overule when they disobey. Third, no one knows the hidden will of God, and God has not been please to make it known to us. God's secret counsel is none of our business. This is partly why the Bible takes such a negative view of fortune telling, necromancy, and other practices.
---MarkV. on 1/29/10

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Seg, I did mention that it was the Holy Spirit who guided the apostles and those after them to spread the gospel. Nothing can be done without God. Again, thanks for the discussion, blessings
---MarkV. on 1/29/10

While God has complete foreknowledge, He has one will. We are either in His will or out of it. He does have great mercy,grace and love which is His nature. It is Gods will for us to obey Him. If we do not, He can choose to forgive or correct or even to change us. Look at what He did in the apostle Paul's case. Paul was out of God's will and was blinded and told exactly what to do. Bible says that God can cause a man to stand. The notion of God having 2 wills really reduces Him into a box that could never contain Him. He is very big:)
---jody on 1/28/10

Anyone who has children can understand this concept very well.

We all want the absolute best for our kids, but if our children did not have the ability to choose to obey, there would be no relationship or potential for love.

Without choice, there can be no love. (not talking about enjoyment or liking)

Love is the source for desiring the best and the requirement of free will.
---Paul on 1/27/10

Seg, you quote
"I was found of them that sought me not, I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." which is a wonderful passage many here don't even believe.
Now you are getting to the Sovereign right of God to choose whom He wants to have mercy on. Those are the one's God has chosen to be saved. They will come through the message of the gospel of Christ, which is taught by man. God will give them ears to hear and eyes to see and a heart that perceives, to understand the gospel by faith when they hear it. Great passage you gave.
---MarkV. on 1/27/10

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Im not saying to anyone stop! Or even dont do that.

I also feel, you believe the lord, I hear him in your words.
But, I want you to really look at what youre saying.

In the words you gave me.
If a man doesnt come to you, you cannot receive the thing from God.

Do you see this?
A man is needed.
Now, look in your heart and tell me, where he wrote this!

Yes, preach the gospel, as written.
But dont think for one minute, its because of the one preaching.

It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing.
Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
---TheSeg on 1/27/10

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel.
And they went forth, and preached everywhere,
the Lord working with them, and confirming the word
with signs following.

Is this saying they believe the lord was working with them?
No, he was confirming the word! I tell you, today everyone believes.
That why its so hard for some to decide, who to follow, getting lost.
If its a man and you dont know its the lord, right there with him!
You think it should be a judgment call. He said judge not!
I find it hard to see, what is not there.

I was found of them that sought me not, I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
---TheSeg on 1/27/10

Seg, great answer but you forget He was already speaking to believers. And was speaking against unbelievers, so they would not listen to them. Good passages but wrong context. If you were right no one would get the good news of salvation through Christ. The divine which was given to all believers at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit, did guide all those believers. Out of their own experiences and first-hand knowledge they spoke with the authority of eye-witnesses. They needed no written documents, for they had been followers, the pupils, the friends of the Master. The Spirit can lead you to study from a person that God has put in your path for a special duty.
---MarkV. on 1/27/10

You mean will, but

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
---TheSeg on 1/26/10

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Seg, so what you are saying is that there is only one will of God. I believe you are saying that, if wrong please let me know.
What you are suggesting also is not to listen to man. If that is the case, then man does not need teachers to disciple the new converts. The lost don't need man to present the gospel Truth. How do you think the apostolic Church started? At Pentecost the disciple received their divine equipment as witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ. From their lips (for books had not yet been written of the New Testament) they told the story of the life, and death, the resurrection and the ascension of our Lord. So I disagree that man are not needed.
---MarkV. on 1/26/10

Yes, God has ONE will and his will be done in heaven and in the earth below. God is God and there is none other besides Him. A just God and a Savior. What ever God does it is right and just.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

1Sa 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
---steven-rem7000 on 1/26/10

The Psalmist said, "All His ways are Perfect."

And the New testament says: He works all things after the counsel of His will. It doesn't mention a permissive will.

If God is Perfect, and He is, then wouldn't it make sense that He has ONE will and it's HIS PERFECT WILL?
---Donna on 1/26/10

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: vs.11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it. <
45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
vs. 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
---steven-rem7000 on 1/26/10

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So many say God has more than one will, because man cant see perfection.
But, my lord said the will of the father is you believe me, my words.
And I came here to save the world! I am your teacher, let them come to me!

But, we see only what we want to see. And say all kinds of things about, the way men see it.
Then stand on these words. Not seeing we are stepping on his.
He said, I give you one, but I want ten back. Are we to perform magic?
If we dont open door and remove the mountains.
How can the ten come in?
God forgive me!
---TheSeg on 1/26/10

No matter what you see you cant give that too another.
Even if you show him the door, he will not believe.
He cant see the door, it must come from God.

Everybody wants to know, but they dont ask God. They ask Man!
And every man is a liar. Why, because they have not received it.

So how can you give, that which they have not received.
The things one believes or I believe, cannot be given.
They must be received.

So we say thing like, then youre not saved or you dont believe.
God is not judging them, we are. God is judging our belief in him to do all.
Will everyone be saved, why is the answer always no!
Rev 20:13-14-15
---TheSeg on 1/26/10

Seg, I would have loved to have answered you, but I have no clue what you are talking about. What the point is, or what the subject you are talking about. It could be I am not smart enough to figure it out, and need a point to be mention in order to answer. I don't know if what you are saying is disagreeing with the lessions on God's will that I had from two sermons, and the essentials of the Christian faith, or that you agree, since you mentioned my name.
---MarkV. on 1/26/10

Hi MarkV
I understand how man wants to see God, because of Christ.
I am not interested in man. I believe Christ has see man.

He said: Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth?
I tell you, Nay, but rather division. (And he did!)
But this is in man, understanding of God.
Not God understanding of God.

I have to believe, lets says X amount of things in God.
If a man doesnt believe, is that my problem? I dont think so.
Abraham believed God!
Isnt it, more like God problem, I think you may agree?
The bible is so much more, then just my salvation.
And even more then the X amount of things, I believe or one must believe.
---TheSeg on 1/25/10

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When we speak of God's will we do so in three different ways. The broader concept is known as "God's decretive, sovereign, or hidden will." These is describe in Scripture as the will of God by which He sovereignly ordains everything that comes to pass. Because God is Sovereign and His will can never be frustrated, we can be sure that nothing happens over which He is not in control. He at least permits whatever happens to happen. He always has the power and right to intervene and prevent the actions and events of this world to happen.
Second, "His preceptive will" Here God reveals His will through His holy laws. For example, it is the will of God that we do not steal, that we love our enemies,
---MarkV. on 1/25/10

#2. That we repent. This aspect of God revealed in His Word as well as in our conscience, by which God has written His moral law upon our heart. His laws are found in Scripture or in our hearts, and are binding. We have no authority to violate this will of God. We do have the power and ability to thwart the preceptive will of God, though never the right to do so. This is maybe what Darline is saying on "permissive will." The third will the Bible speaks of is with respect to "God's will of disposition" This will describes God's attitude. It defines what is pleasing to God. God takes no delight in the death of the wicked, yet He most surely wills or decress the death of the wicked. Hope this helps someone.
---MarkV. on 1/25/10

In trying to be of one mind!
Can we say there is some kind of agreement here?
That this permissive will or nature is a man made one.
Only away of wrongly explaining how God see sin.
Maybe even a way for man to say its ok he'll forgive me.
Only because if a man see permissive, how can he bend his knees in true repentance?
While seeking, the forgiveness of God.
Get back to me, please!
---TheSeg on 1/25/10

If we wait on the Lord & HE directs us to do something then we are in HIS perfect will or we follow HIS commandments that we know prayerfully & humbly. "The permissive will" IS NOT OF GOD but human description of a phenomenon, "I like this thing, I will do it as long as God do not block me, I will not ask God if I should do it". Doing things contrary to God's word AND somethings that look godly but contrary to God's plan are included in "permissive will" e.g. becoming a pastor without God's calling or deciding on one's own the area to go and evangelize, limiting God in the way HE uses us etc.
---Adetunji on 1/25/10

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We shouldn't confine God to the WORDS that we read (they are HUMAN words)...

Romans 6:19
"human terms".

In a PERSONAL relationship, His will in your life is different than His will in another person's life.

If we listen closely, we will understand His will in our life when we are ready (unless we only care about COMMANDS that are necessary for the REBELLIOUS).

Ephesians 5:17
"Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is".

His will for ALL OF THE PEOPLE is PEACEFUL CO-EXISTENCE, but His will for each of us is that we have JOY in our lives.
---more_excellent_way on 1/25/10

we sin because adam and eve ate of the tre of the knowledge of good and evil,thats why we sin ,because we inherited the knowledge and the nature to sin.
---tom2 on 1/24/10

Like so many other popular sayings these have been used by humans to express their view of God's relationship with mankind. God has one will,that given through the Word of God. What God has allowed in humans is free will,which is to be submitted to God's will when we repent of our sins and come to Christ. Humans do have the habit of making excuses for the things they do out of God's will/his Word. The permissive will of God is a perfect example of trying to cover up ones own mistakes and slackness in serving God. Seeking and receiving God's will for their lives,to obey and perform it,is to remain in God's perfect will. Every Christian should do that and be honest with themselves if they don't, and ask God's forgiveness.
---Darlene_1 on 1/24/10

Example: Gods ultimate goal (perfect will) for the children of Israel was that He should be their king and rule over them.
Yet he allowed (permitted) them to, because of their lack of faith in him, choose a King.
He warned them of what the king would do to them and their descendants 1 Sam 8:4-18, yet they opted for a king anyway.
Were there consequences for their choice? Yes
Gods perfect will is for us to obey his word.
Does he allow (permit) us to choose? Yes
Are there consequences for our choices? Yes
For the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
Please study Gods word.
We are going to be without excuse when we stand before God on judgment day.
---ashle7439 on 1/24/10

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I ask this only because I dont see two will. I only see one, namely:
You should believe Jesus Christ or the words there of.

I dont see a permissive one! Thats like saying God is permitting us to sin. God is not permitting us to sin, we are sinning because that what we do best.

I love when we say Im not going to do that anymore. Because that a sin. Why, so we can see someone sin! God forgive me. Maybe instead we should say God forgive me for seeing him sin.

We wont do that, right! Why, because were not sinner. God has forgiven us!
I will wait in hope for the forgiveness from God.

God keep and save us.
A man!
---TheSeg on 1/24/10

God does as He pleases. He needs not our permission. He kills, at will. He sends earthquakes at will. He has no rules set for Himself [Ps. 135:6]. It is God's perfect will. {Know God's will for your life}. Watch out! It may not be the same as someone elses. The answer to your question is, yes. He needs not our permission, in what He does. "I do as I please. Like it or lump it. I don't much care". Saith the Lord thy God. For I am God. And what are you? Humans. Is how God sees us. Just humans. Nothing more. Ahhh. Oh my Lord and my God. Job 38:22, Ex. 7:21, Numbers 21:24. For starters.
---catherine on 1/24/10

To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, There is only God's Will and that which is not God's Will. There is no gray area, of freewill, which enable you to choose our Lord : permissive-will/freewill is just another way of saying "Not God's Will" !!

When we Chose Life, becoming "Dead to sin", that decision didn't stem from any "Will" other than the Drawing Will of God's Word : which unfortunately not everyone can Spiritually Hear.

God's Perfect Will was to send His only begotten Son that the world through Him might be Saved b/c God so Loved the world, He gave His Son that Whosoever having ears to Hear shall Believe in Him & not perish.
---ShawnM.T. on 1/24/10

Was this friend from Hollywood? Doubt God has two wills. If He permits you to do anything, that is because it fits within his perfect will. Now your mind will probably jump to bad things that He lets happen. Well this is part of His plan which involves, "Free will." Everyday we get to choose who we want to serve.
---amand6348 on 1/23/10

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bill,by your definition you are speaking about sanctification,daily decisions that are wrong,yet God allows them to teach us,now the problem I have with this attitude is the same reason why so many of the questions on this site are actually ridiculously immature,well actually I would say completely worldly, and flesh know the ones like IS IT WRONG TO DATE A MARRIED MAN?those types.WOW how we attempt to justify everything.
---tom2 on 1/23/10

TheSeg, "will" in the context of your question implies either purpose, determination, wish, or desire. To call the Father's will "permissive" would be to infer one of two things, either "tolerant or lenient" which does apply as concerning our Father's revealed character, or "indulgent or lax" which does not.
With certainty I can say that the Father's will has been revealed to us, via His word, as 'good'-(useful), 'acceptable'-(well pleasing), and 'perfect'-(lacking nothing necessary for completeness). Therefore "permissive" could be listed under "good", as useful in allowing us to experience the results of error that we may come to willingly embrace the truth that dispels them.
---joseph on 1/23/10

God has one will, namely, for all to repent and be saved: for God does not give any soul permission to sin.
---Eloy on 1/24/10

Gods will is that none should perish,but would all come to the saving grace he offers through his son.We all have free will,and make decisions, seeking permission from God would negate this.What we are to do is make our decisions based on his word as to how we are to live in this world.There are only 2 choices,one right,one wrong,there are no GRAY areas as so many different denominations would have you think,This is why there will be a judgement,because we are accountable for our choices.
---tom2 on 1/23/10

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I understand that God's perfect will is what He wants us to do with Him in His peace (Colossians 3:15, Matthew 12:28-30) and leading, sharing with Him and enjoying Him while caring about all others (Matthew 5:46). But His permissive will would be what we keep pushing because it is what we want, and He then allows us to make our mistakes. But He is resisting us, so we don't get in much worse trouble, than we do. "God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. God does resist us, so things don't go our own way, and we can get angry, arguing, stressed, etc., as a warning sign that we need to stop while God corrects and restores us.
---Bill_bila5659 on 1/23/10

There are no spiritual consequences for "sinning against" (violating) "propriety" (properness).

Some SERIOUS "wrongdoing" can be 'soul damaging', but some is not. The Lord abolished the sin laws and all rules (Ephesians 2:15) because the concept of "sin" is prudish and prevents a freewill CONSCIENCE/spirit.

1 John 5:17
"All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal/soul damaging".

Now that Jesus became the final sacrifice/cleansing, "sin" has no more spiritual meaning and cannot damage the soul.

Hebrews 10:2
"no longer have any consciousness of sin".

God's love for us "covers a multitude of sin" (1 Peter 4:8).
---more_excellent_way on 1/23/10

That's an interesting question that few would even think of. Is God teaching you extraordinary faith and trust in His loving kindness?...."faith for faith" (Romans 1:17).

The prodigal son had extraordinary faith in his dad's loving kindnees by returning home. Of course the prodigal son ADMITTED that he "sinned against heaven" (violated perfection), but he also acknowledged that he had hurt A VICTIM (his dad) when he said "before you".

"heaven" never suffers damage ("heaven" will never be A VICTIM). God wants us to CARE about PEOPLE who suffer injustice.

The tale of the prodigal son is THE perfect illustration of how God loves and treats us.
---more_excellent_way on 1/23/10

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