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Garden Of Gethsemane Prayer

When Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane praying Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. Do you think He was hoping God would get him out of going to the cross?

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 ---Donna on 1/29/10
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Donna I was too going to comment on your statement. Yes, if MarkV would only allow people to say what they want, believe according to their convictions, backed up by scripture, and let God be the judge, how much better off these conversations will be.

Helen-Augie, I'm so glad you brought that up. Maybe we should ALL follow Donna's advice, and especially not falsely accuse, or make statements when you obviously didn't start from the bottom of this thread and read ALL of MarkV's comments.

I believe his very first comment here was accusing Eloy and then causing others to sin by drawing them into GOSSIP which is sin.

If my pointing that out is mean...I'M GUILTY!

However I will let GOD be my judge on the matter.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/10

Kathr, you do give women a bad name. your comments to me gives the evidence. I'm so sorry you are so resentful. I'm glad I was not here last year to hear what you had to say then are I would be in bigger trouble.
Donna, make some good arguments. She said, He just allows them to believe what they want and then the judgment.
---Helen-Augie on 2/16/10

Helen-Augie, When I made a judgment call here with MarkV's mean spirited comment to Eloy, I was really sad that MarkV on many threads has this need to remind everyone about comments Eloy has made, along with other issues with Eloy I won't mention, which I call mean spirited GOSSIP for the purpose of discrediting someone. If you have only been reading for a month, you really are not qualified to make any comments on anyone here who has been conversing for years. We are not in a CHURCH that I need to be quiet. If so, then you are out of line and not being quiet yourself.

Now, you are the perfect example of WOMEN being a busy body in OTHER MEN'S matters, adding fuel hoping others will join in on your mean spirited post adding sin to sin.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/10

Can we try to remember that when Jesus walked this earth, he stated the truth and if people didn't believe Him, he didn't argue, nor did he respond to them.

I have learned, after 26 years of walking with the Lord that silence really is golden.

Don't you think that when someone doesn't believe you when you're telling them the truth as it is in the word, that God ignores them? He doesn't shove Himself or His word down their throats. He just allows them to believe what they want - and then judgement day will come upon them if they don't repent and believe the truth of His word. Just my measley opinion. Let's not argue, just speak the scriptures (the truth) and if someone doesn't believe you, don't respond.
---Donna on 2/16/10

Alan, nice to answer someone. I have been reading the blogs for four weeks. What really upsets me is when a sister has a vengeful heart towards another and instead of acting like a sister, she goes off with a tirade of words. Gives us women a bad name since women were accused of disrupting the Church in Scripture, and told to keep silent. Also thought that she was using the name James to continue her tirade looked like her words. Very foolish what people do but I suppose with the world web, it cannot be helped.
---Helen-Augie on 2/15/10

Helen-Augie Welcome to thse blogs!

There seem to be three James:

Firstly JAMES, who used to be PASTOR JIM, and still seems to use that name on occasion

Secondly James, who says the same things as JAMES, but without using all that upper case.

Then there seems to be another James, who is different again

I don't think any of them is Kathr.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/14/10

Kath, it's not hard to tell, as mary mentioned that james and you are the same person. Why not just say you are kath? The language is the same, the words expressed are the same. The sentences are split the same. Your signature.
---Helen-Augie on 2/13/10

Kathrine, when you use the name James to hide, you have to use different words. the same ones give you away.
---mary on 2/11/10

MarkV, I believe many here are really tired of your whining, and using your whining to slander others. I know I am.

Please Move on!

I posted something earlier but it didn't go through.

Grace does seem difficult for you. It really is harder for you to turn the other cheek than to judge isn't it?
---James on 2/11/10

Donna, I did not forget you. Thank you so very much for your kind words. We have all gone through a lot in life. I have never felt the pain of losing a child, so I don't know what that feels like and hope I never do. I will try to not fail in the fight for the Truth. Your are also doing a great job speaking for the Lord. Your comments do not go unnotice. Again blessings to you and peace.
---MarkV. on 2/11/10

I believe when Jesus was in the Garden and said, "Father, if there be any other way", I don't believe this was showing His weakness, but presenting to us a very important fact. There was no other way. There was no other way for God to redeem sinners. The wages of Sin is death. So if anyone believes they can get to Heaven any other is your answer....NO!

God did not force Jesus either to die for us. Jesus of himself said I lay down my life, and I can take it up.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the subject matter?

Genesis 3:15 already prophesied there was no other way.

---kathr4453 on 2/11/10

Bruce B, again thank you for your concern. Also thank you for advising me of your opinions. Kathr has stalked me for a long time, no matter the Truth I present. It is not about Scripture anymore with her, it is about hate. I hoped that the new year would be different but it is not. I am sorry for her. I have nothing that I am afraid of coming from her, but I do fear God and that is why I speak on His behalf. I think if you have read my post on line you would know that I have no loyalty to anyone or any denomination but to God. If that is not good enough for you then I deeply sorry. I cannot make you love me either. I can only present the Truth.
---MarkV. on 2/11/10


Be advised--I point to no one in particular, but to all, in general.

Arguing for the sake of proving our "rightness" with God is not quite the equal of speaking the truth. These relentless exchanges of what can only be viewed as hatred (and which occur in virtually every posting in this place) are not a fight between good and evil--they are evil.

Disagreements over the doctrines of men are inevitable. Disagreements with the doctrine of Christ are impossible, as they are contrary to His Spirit.

When we consent to engage evil with evil, we fail by not persenting the truth. Present and stand... on The Word. Is being least in the Kingdom of Heaven not better than being greastest in hell?
---BruceB on 2/11/10

The Bible talks about sharing in the suffering of Christ (Rom 8:17, Phil 3:10), about following Paul like he follows Jesus (1 Cor 11:1), about disciples doing the same things that Jesus did (Matt 10). Jesus was imitated, followed. His physical /emotional suffering was His HUMANITY and how can WE identify with Him and He with us in our suffering.

Maybe His suffering is exactly what so many Christians suffered while being persecuted. Many innocent were crucified. Torture had/has become far more sophisticated today than 33ad

The extreme cruelty of what man is capable of Christ shared! The value of his suffering is not in it being worse than others , but exactly in its being just as bad as what others are suffering!
---kathr4453 on 2/11/10

Bruce, I understand your concern. I'm not on line to condemn anyone. So my purpose is Truthful. But bringing the Truth out will cause those who rejected the Truth of His Word to try to kill you with their words. When they do to me, I bring that too to their attention, that I am not afraid of evil. God Himself is my witness. for I fear Him and not them.
If God brought anyone here to learn the Truth of His Word they will learn the Truth or else God would not have brought them here. He never makes mistakes. Whoever comes on line can see the fight between good and evil for not everyone on line is saved. The evil they speak can be recognized by any spiritually discern person no matter if the other changes his name so nobody will know its them.
---MarkV. on 2/11/10

My daughter just had a baby, and she's nursing. She's taught me so much about nursing.

Here are the benefits of nursing, and compare this to the pure milk of the word of God.
Mothers milk is calming, pure, compatible, soothing, great for the immune system in FIGHTING OFF colds, sickness etc. When nursing, the baby is bonding with the mother in a way formula bottle fed babies miss out on. Formula is artificial, hard to digest, causes fussiness, and colic, etc. Well just think of Gods PURE milk of the Word vs artificial milk. Can you see the colic in those who want to force bottle feeding on you? Dont they seem OUT OF CONTROL?

God measures me according to HIS yard stick, not Calvins or Calvins bottle fed offspring.
---kathr4453 on 2/11/10

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James, whoever you are, and hiding behind another name, thinking genuine believers are stupid or something. You do not scare me, I am not afraid of evil, "I fear the Lord God Almighty.
"Greater is He who is in me that he who is in the world"

Anyone trying to kill me, stand in line with the rest of the murderers.
---MarkV. on 2/11/10

Mt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Are any of you remotely aware how many "sinners" read what is written here abouts and might come away offended by this spiteful exchange, so much so as to never desire to take even the first step upon the narrow way?

You represent the Christ as if He died for no purpose other than that you might all argue over who contributed least (or most) to His agony.

Grow up! into Christ: and leave your spiteful spirits where they belong, in the grave of your "old men": while you are able to do so.
---BruceB on 2/11/10

Proverbs 23:6_8: Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats: For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee, but his heart is not with thee. The morsel which thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.
---Nana on 2/10/10

Kathr, I hope I answered your question. Eloy knows more then you will ever know. I disagree on somethings he says, but my disrespect is for what he said about Christ. But no one has ever spoken about Jesus as he did.
Now you are completely different then he is. He knows a lot of Scripture, you know nothing. Not because you cannot, but because you have a wicked purpose and it is not to learn about God. Anyone can open the Bible and throw passages out, and mix them all around about gold and fire, and make it look like you do know. But your heart is corrupt the reason why I rebuked you last year in the name of Jesus Christ in hope that in the New Year God would change your heart. But He hasn't. No conviction no repentance.
---MarkV. on 2/10/10

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Amen Kath!

Each of our experiences are different BUT we all come out how God wants us to come out if we submit to HIS will no matter what.
By the way, I hate that you had to go through those things BUT I am so glad you are my sister in Christ!

True and tried in the fire, Christian Sister!
---miche3754 on 2/10/10

AMEN to you too Sister!

Here MarkV is coming down on Eloy however have you noticed MarkV here believes himself to be God? Now, that is wicked.

MarkV is just so angry that I can see through calvin's shallow doctrine that has left him naked. Kind of like The emperor's new cloths!

MarkV, when that serpent venom leaves your lips then you might have something worth while to say.
---kathr4453 on 2/10/10

MarkV, There is something really wrong here. Kathr and Mich are pouring out their heart giving testimony to our Great God and Lord Jesus Christ.

Why do you feel the need to interrupt with the most ghastly verbal accusations? I have noticed very frequently you do this in the midst of any truth being spoken. I honestly believe that is Satan working through you to distract from the real truth here. Not everything is about you or how you feel. Yet, you seem to make every conversation about you.

You say you don't like Eloy because he thinks he is God. These words you used make you appear you are God.
---James on 2/10/10

Amen Kath!

Each of our experiences are different BUT we all come out how God wants us to come out if we submit to HIS will no matter what.
By the way, I hate that you had to go through those things BUT I am so glad you are my sister in Christ!

True and tried in the fire, Christian Sister!
---miche3754 on 2/10/10

Kathr, let me be blunt with you. I don't respect Eloy for what he says about Christ. It is not what he says to me. That does not bother me. It is because he thinks of himself higher then Christ. But, I totally believe he is saved. I believe he went wrong when his wife left him. And Jesus said you can speak against Him and you can be forgiven, but not against the Holy Spirit.

Now you, on the other hand are wicked. Very wicked. If God were your Father you would love me. But you seek to kill me every time you curse me, a man who has told you the Truth, which I heard from God, for I do not seek my own glory, but Christ. You continue in every way to do the desires of the father you never left.
---MarkV. on 2/10/10

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Miche, I came from a very abusive home, and wanted to kill myself all my life. When I got saved,( listening to the pie in the sky stuff)I found that it was completely opposite. God didn't really heal my fleshly broken heart, He crucified it. My grandfather use to have a joke: How do you cure a burn? Ans: You burn it again. God took all my pain and crushed it beyond any earthly pain I ever had. I found that was the very BEST medicine of all. Because, He didn't want to make over the old man, but cause the New Man in me to GROW UP! Old things pass away and ALL things become NEW! God doesn't sew a new cloth on an old rag, or put new wine in an old wine skin!

The Baptism with FIRE burns away the chaff of our old man!
---kathr4453 on 2/10/10

Kath, I think the sufferings depend on a person's weakness.
I love my parents very much. So much that I have given up my needs for theirs.
The same with my children.
I believe if God's allows it (like with Job), the enemy can and will use these things to test your roots in the Lord to see if you have built your house on the rock, per-se (being refined in the fire to be gold and silver) or if your foundation is false and will be burned up like wood and stubble.
I truly believe that if you have work to do for God, the enemy will try anything to get you to turn away from God. Which goes back to what you said about Jesus and his trials. Not same temptations, but still temptations
---miche3754 on 2/10/10

Miche, MarkV has never suffered for Jesus sake. He said as much on many blogs.

I find it very telling that MarkV copies and pastes many posts from others writings on the net when he gets into a jam. This is very telling too, as I see nothing(living waters) come out of his own life as a testimony to the power and workings of Christ in Him. He cannot tell you the GOLD he has bought from Christ TRIED in the FIREY trials of suffering, yet has the audacity of calling others reprobate who actually do belong to the Lord. He is cursing the very Christ that is in them, and doesn't even know it.

MarkV and I are not of the same faith.
---kathr4453 on 2/10/10

I am still trying to figure out WHY Markv gets so upset for someone asking him to prove something when he asks for that proof all the time?
And the ones who agree with him are "representing Christ" but the ones who disagree with him are "not Christian" in his opinion.

But that is okay. Christ said all who follow after him would suffer as he did.
I know I can say for myself that it does not matter what I have suffered I KNOW that I KNOW I am God's child.
The loss of BOTH parents, job, home, every possession I had and the physical defiance of a child, was not enough to sway me from him.
Markv thinks he is the only one who has suffered?
---miche3754 on 2/10/10

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Here is the HEART of the Gospel according to the MYSTERY. Here are only a FEW verses. This is what JAMES is talking about!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ, if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

2 Corinthians 1:5
For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

Philippians 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake,
---kathr4453 on 2/10/10

Please post Part 2

On another thread we were talking about GRACE and if it is harder than law. Or if Grace requires more than the law. That last verse in Phil I just posted clearly says YES!

Yet, MarkV says no. James guides us through this YES that we will suffer, using Job as an example. These trials are not ordinary things all humanity goes through. Yes life itself can be painful, losing a parent etc. I do not diminish that. I too have lost loved ones.

But losing someone: cancer etc, is not suffering FOR JESUS sake.

Please discern your suffering. Often we suffer for pride, sin etc.

The marks of Christ are the marks of suffering for being a Christian MarkV. They don't always have to be visible.
---kathr4453 on 2/10/10

Larry, A-men brother. But Alan, you know full well that I have forgotten nothing, yet how your heart has become obstinate so quickly in misjudgment. Am I become your enemy because I tell you the truth? Know that Christ is not the only person whom has willingly sacrificed himself so that another may be spared. And also know that I never denied that my Christ was not tortured nor crucifed, for I bear in my own body the marks of Christ. And I know full well in whom I believe, for "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
---Eloy on 2/9/10

MarkV, please let me say how sorry I am that you had to endure all of those hardships. We never know what a person has been through on this board and that's why we need to respect one another and be true to loving one another with the Love of Jesus in our hearts.

Losing your mother and father within a year is a very very painful things to go through. I'm so very sorry, my heartfelt and deepest compassion goes out to you.

You are truly a Godly man. I read your responses and have always liked what you say. The Lord loves you Mark and your pain hasn't gone unnoticed. "He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds."

I admire you for the man of God you are.

---Donna on 2/9/10

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Miche, Jesus suffered to be an EXAMPLE to us when we go through suffering. The greatest suffering Jesus encountered was taking our sin and being separated from the Father for that moment He said..My God, My God why has thou forsaken me. THAT suffering we will never know.

But earthly suffering,like His 40 trial, we too encounter. Crucified with Christ, is a most painful experience.

There are many kinds of sufferings. What only counts are those that conform us to His Image..the FELLOWSHIP of His Sufferings, and through this fellowship we find the most personal intimate relationship with Christ that no human can even know or understand.

Those who SUFFER with Him will also be GLORIFIED TOGETHER with Him..Romans 8.
---kathr4453 on 2/9/10

Dreadful physical things have happened to many many people, as has been partly described here. That is very true.

But ...

I'm surprised that Eloy forgets that there was more to Jesus' suffering than the physical pain, and the mortal mental anguish.

Jesus died and suffered carrying all our sins. THAT is something no-one else has ever done. How can you compare our worst sufferings with that?

And Jesus was alone without His Father when he died. "My Gid, my God, why has Thou forsaken me?"

To say "Truly many people have personally suffered horribly, and much more than Jesus has in his young life on earth" is so wrong.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/9/10

God bless you Alan and Mark V.
Kathr, you are correct to be skeptical about anyone suffering more than Christ. No one suffered more for Isiah 53 says he was smitten by God and that is PLEASED God to crush him. That surpasses even Job.
Because Christ was without sin he suffered more than all by difinition. Everyone else deserves suffering and hell.

Eloy may have been referring to the pain of a burn vs crucifixion. Nero covered Christians in wax and burned them for night lighting before a cheering Coloseum. For living cells a burn in the most pain inflicting.
Eloy has other excellent observations.
---larry on 2/9/10

Miche, I have not suffered more then christ, beaten with a whip, or had the skin of my back opened with the slaches. I have not been spit on, or torchered as Jesus was. I was never put on a cross where breath cannot come out of you, or nails to my hands or feet.
I have lost my father and mother within a year, had my former wife leave me with the kids and later die in my arms. I have been broke and was mistreated as a child. Yet never will I ever claim I come a hundred miles to what Jesus went through. I would never have the courage to compare my suffering with Him or Job. You've made your choice, so has Kathr. Only one more of you will I hear from. It's only a matter of time.
---MarkV. on 2/9/10

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Alan, thank you for standing for Christ. I find that comforting that you would do that. I know you and I do not see eye to eye on some things, but we can still talk on others. But this subject is not like any doctrine or teaching. It is about our Lord and Savior. You have shown a true love for Christ for standing up for Him. You have spoken on behalf of the Truth. And have not put to shame His sacrifice on the Cross.
---MarkV. on 2/9/10

You know Kath, you are so right that God does see the end of the finished work. He sees the light we each shine for HIM.
He knew that my dad would die of cancer and that my mom wouldn't be able to handle it so he allowed her to be struck with a serious mental disease that will kill her but he did it to protect her! She would not have handled my dad's death well at all.
I don't complain about all I have went through. God was just refining me getting me ready for Him and I won't ever deny him no matter what I go through. How many can be as Job? not many of us. God tests us and tries all of us to make sure we are his. We find out if we are wood & stubble or Gold & silver.
---miche3754 on 2/9/10

Kathr, Eloy:

What is this "light" that Jesus saw from the cross?

I am unfamiliar with this. According to MM & L, there was darkness for three hours and then Jesus died.

Please provide a Biblical reference for this "light"
---Mark_Eaton on 2/9/10

Please post.

Eloy, what did you mean (if in fact you did state you were the light Jesus saw from the cross). That could mean many things. I will say again, as I misspelled on the last post. Jesus SAW me from the cross. He SAW all He died for. Maybe Eloy meant Jesus saw the finished product...THE Glorified US IN CHRIST. Well then, maybe Jesus did see that light.

Isaiah 29: 20For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: (This GOD HATES!!)

21That make a man an offender for a word, ----

MarkV The venom on you tongue every time you speak GOD HATES MORE.

Speaking of Gethsemane...Peter was rebuked for cutting off ears.
---kathr4453 on 2/9/10

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The scriptures read that multitudes have suffered more than Jesus has in the flesh. But this does not diminish Christ's suffereings for us: Jesus lived to be 32, many live and suffer long after 32 and suffer alzheimers. Jesus never was divorced, nor had his children kidnapped, nor paid extortion, but many people have. Jesus never suffered a fatal disease, undergone years of chemotherapy, nor even had one broken bone in his life, yet many have. He was never blind, deaf, dumb, nor crippled, he never was possessed by demons and bondages or addictions, but mutiltudes have. Truly many people have personally suffered horribly, and much more than Jesus has in his young life on earth, but mercifully he is touched with the feeling of our infirmitites.
---Eloy on 2/9/10

Miche ... I've had hard arguments with Mark, but we've forgiven the hurts we may have felt. But we can't and should not forget that his view of the Sovereignty of God is not quite the same as mine. If we did forget, we'd constantly be surprised when the difference appeared!

And we can't really forget the fact that the guy claims to be THE (note THE) light that Jesus saw when He was on the cross. (and I don't think that can be biblical) It's a fact that needs to be born in mind so we can understand where the guy comes from.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/9/10

miche, the problem I see here with MarkV is that he will use that against Eloy all the time. I can understand why you want proof, because we all know MarkV TWIST things and accuses people of saying things they never said. It's only how markV interprets it in his head. He has accused me of many things I never said and continues to do so through out these threads. It's a MEAN tactic no matter how one looks at it.

Alan, even though you witnessed it, people still would want to read the whole thread and all the conversations to see for themselves exactly what one said and in the context it was said.

I know Christ say all of us from the cross! I also know missionary women who have been raped. Was Jesus ever raped?
---kathr4453 on 2/9/10

MV you assume 2 much, Not siding with Eloy just stating biblical facts.
Its possible for a person to suffer as Job did or worse. God says so. I do love U MV. U should know because I don't insult U.
Brother, I have lost dad to cancer & mom SLOWLY to FT dementia. Ive dealt with an unruly child, lost everything I ever had and was homeless, been beaten by my son's dad/ I wasnt even able to feed my children. I had to rely on the Lord for everything.
all this at the same time. I thought I was going to break.
I guess youve never had God do U like he did Job and still be able to say The Lord gives and he takes away, Bless the name of the Lord.
thats what its about following Christ no matter what! Can you say you would do what He did?
---miche3754 on 2/9/10

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Miche, I take no sides with anyone, unless when I see someone get something I see wrong I will answer disagreeing. It does not matter who the person is. I have questioned almost everyone on what they say. If you are saved you should already be my sister/brother in Christ. If you don't love me, I cannot make you love me.
With Eloy, he has not repented. Reason is, he has no conviction on what he says. I cannot respect anyone who blaspheme Jesus Christ. You say you suffered almost like Job in order to support Eloy's view, you better read the Scriptures again, because you don't come close to what he went through. Job lost everything around him and still loved the Lord. He did not blaspheme God. You have lost no more then any of us have.
---MarkV. on 2/9/10

Miche, #2 continue: There is no excuse for any genuine believer who is suppose to be in love with Christ and turn around and tell everyone here on line that Jesus never had to clean a dirty toilet. That he somehow suffered more then Christ. When someone loves someone with all of their heart, soul, and mind, that person will never trash the one he loves.
No spouse would like for the mate to trash them in front of everyone. Cut them down to make points with others. But this is Jesus we are talking about not a human. Our Lord and Savior. No Miche, you are wrong, you were wrong before and you are wrong now. If you don't like my comments stand in line with kathr, Nana and a few others.
---MarkV. on 2/9/10

Alan, We are supposed to forget. I forget every time Mark has insulted me.
I think sometimes he does it but doesn't mean to and I am sure if we were talking in person, what he says to me would not come out as harsh as it seems on here.
As you recall, I had my own little spay with Eloy too but I don't even remember what it was about.

And the Bible does say we will suffer as Jesus suffered or even worse by following him. So, some of what Eloy has said about his sufferings to him, may be true.
I have suffered myself the same kinds of loses that Job did with the exception of kids and disease. But I Love God and no matter what I am with him for life.
---miche3754 on 2/9/10

Miche ... The point is that the guy has said it and has repeated it on various occasions. So it's something he really believes.

We have to forgive that, and I have and I am sure MarkV has. But we cannot forget it, and it has to be borne in mind when considering other things he might say or claim.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/8/10

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Me asking for proof is not siding with him and I have never been upset with you just sad for you.
Some of your doctrine that you follow is false.
We won't go into that here.

Thank you Alan for being a witness for Markv and I accept that witness. Now my question is if it was that far back, where is your forgiveness? Where is your love for your fellow Christians even if you do disagree?
I could be that way to many on this site but I don't hold grudges. If I did, that would be breaking the number 2 rule of the Law of Love.
Love neighbor as self.
---miche3754 on 2/8/10

Sorry I meant to say without proof.

And please don't get upset at me for asking.
If someone had said something like that about you I would ask them the same thing because I have never seen you, Eloy or anyone else on this site make that kind of statement.

In fact, why don't we all try to stay on topic of discussion.
What do you think Jesus meant by this statement?
---miche3754 on 2/8/10

Miche ... I can confirm that he said he had suffered more than Job and Jesus combined, and that he was the light that Jesus saw from the Cross.

He said it here, but some time ago, and the posts are now too far back to show.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/8/10

Miche, I will answer you with one of his remarks, "You will believe what you want to believe"
My answers are truthful for I would never make up something so terrible. You do not have to take my word for it since you never do. You are still upset with me, but now you have sided with him and if he did say what I said he did, it would put you in the same company. Sorry you are in that company. What he said, he never repented. If he is going to speak about my Savior that way, I think others should know. Let me say, it blaspheme and if you agree with him, you will find yourself regretting it later.
---MarkV. on 2/8/10

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He was asking for God's will to be done. What He went through!!!
---catherine on 2/8/10

I am not taking sides or anything but I am going to ask for solid and valid proof that Eloy said this before believing it.
You should not accuse someone of a thing like that with proof.
So, if you please, show us when and where Eloy said that he suffered more than Jesus?
Unless of course Eloy was quoting scripture.
We certainly are suppose to follow in Christ's footsteps.
Luke 5:11, 2 peter 2:21, phil. 3:10, 2 cor. 1:7, 4:10, rev. 14:4
Markv, you sometimes like to read MORE into what a person says. You have done that with me.
The Bible does tell us if we love God we will make our bodies LIVING sacrifices just like Jesus did.
---miche3754 on 2/8/10

Mark, the person was Eloy. I never would have thought anyone would have the nerve to say they suffered more then Christ, and get this, he got an ok from StevenG. Sometimes when I hear of Jim Jones and others, I wonder how do these guys get followers? The people, Can they not see? I believe a none Christian could see what was coming by what they say, why not a Christians who should know the Bible?
---MarkV. on 2/7/10


Who is the person who claimed he suffered more the Christ and Job put together?

I find this TOTALLY preposterous.

God gave us Job as an example of how we may have to suffer in this life. I can see that it may be possible to suffer more than Job, but it would be unlikely.

The suffering of Jesus is completely another thing. His physical suffering is only a small aspect of His death. The weight of the world's sin and suffering cannot be quantified. This was God who was dying, the same One who was transfigured on the mountain, the One who created the universe, and the same One who has the keys of Death and Hell.

How can you imagine what He can suffer unless you can fill His shoes?
---Mark_Eaton on 2/5/10

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Mark E, there is one person who claims he suffered more the Christ and Job put together. Which is why I was so surprise he would say such things. He has no idea what Jesus went through.
Peters bravery in John 18:10 was not only misguide, but exhibited failure to understand the centrality of the death that Jesus came to die. The "cup" in the Old Testament is associated with suffering and especially judgment, the cup of God's wrath (Ps. 75:8, Isa. 51:17,22, Jer.25:15, Ezek. 23:31). The next day Christ would bare the sin of many" (Heb. 9:28) and the fullness of divine wrath would fall on Him (Isa. 53:10, 11, 2 Cor. 5:21). This was the price of the sin He bore, and He paid it in full.
---MarkV. on 2/4/10

Amen Mark E, Amen.

Who would really want to endure all of that?
None of us but Christ did and look what he gave for us.
Good teaching brother.
---miche3754 on 2/3/10


Yes, Jesus did want the cup of death to pass from Him. But I think it was for a much larger reason than merely dying. Jesus knew He came from the Father and to the Father He would return. Death would have no hold on Him and He knew that.

What I believe He was fearing was the pain and suffering for the BILLIONS of people that have came since He died. He bore ALL their sins, ALL their sorrows, All their sufferings. And He did it willingly.

Can we imagine the weight of such a load? Do you think anyone of us could ever bear it? Would we really want to?
---Mark_Eaton on 2/2/10

Those three days... The only time in all eternity that the Father was seperated from the Son..What an excruciating price to pay for one's such as us...and Jesus knew it had to happen from the foundations of the world.
---MIchael on 2/2/10

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Jesus said to His disciples: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful." The sorrow he felt was not for the pending loss of His earthly life, but for His sinless soul which was about to be separated from God, as payment for the debt of all sinful souls. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Jesus knew exactly what was in store for Him. Jesus' true sacrifice was not merely His body--many men have given their bodies as a willing sacrifice.

It was His sinless soul which was sacrificed for all sinfull souls that must be saved, according to the Father's will. Separation from God... in our stead. That was His sorrow: and His sacrifice.

All glory be to Almighty God. Amen.
---BruceB on 2/2/10

Donna, don't be ashamed of not knowing. God only reveals things that are asked of him. You are seeking, and knocking and you have found.

Rejoice in being showed the truth because the truth sets you free.
---miche3754 on 2/1/10

Wow, I am being blown away by these responses and I love everyone of them.

I have to be honest here, I never thought deeply enough about Jesus's encounter in the Garden of Gethsemane because I thought, "well he knew he was going to the cross, so why bother to pray and ask the cup to be removed?" Stupid, I know. Goes to show I don't have the wisdom I need.

I am humbled and ashamed of myself for not trying to put myself in that Garden and imagine how horrible that night must have been for Him. Father, please forgive me I ask in Jesus name. I know there's a scripture that says in the Psalms, He is mindful we are but dust. What a revelation that is!
---Donna on 2/1/10

//an example to endure tribulation//
To this I also agree.

The example:
Christ being the very Words of God (Jn1:1) we speak out in prayer,not only for ourselves but as intercessory prayer for others.
All Soul belong to God:just and unjust.
Behold,all souls are Mine,as the soul of the father,so also the soul of the son is Mine:the soul that sinneth,shall die.
---char on 2/1/10

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Jesus was both God and Man. No one before him had this characteristic. He knew before the beginning of time that he would have to redeem mankind. The plea for the Father to take away the cup, in my opinion, is twofold.
1st He was flesh. In that hour he had expressed, to his apostles John, Peter and James, that the flesh is weak but the spirit is strong.Therefore, that plea was a plea of the flesh. But the spirit overcame the flesh. There is reward to those who endure (Power).
Next, I believe that Jesus gave us an example on how to endure tribulation. To gain strength trough prayer, and to remember that our Father's will be done.
---patra8793 on 1/30/10

Amen, Patra, Amen.
---miche3754 on 2/1/10

I agree with you Donna,
I don't think Jesus was hoping God the Father would get him out from going to the cross.I understand this to be regarding the wrath of "The Cup"-to"whosoever" that do not drink:there will be judgement"if this cup can pass"...
Jesus(YAHusho)is the spoken Word from the beginning to End.
Perhaps he was pleading as Mediator for mankind(adom)as man(adam)-just as Abraham did for Sodom and GomorrahGen18:22-33.
I am thinking the Word in Flesh,spoke as Mediator for mankind(adom).
The "Cup" which carries "His Blood" brings Salvation[repentance and remission] for Whosoever Believes and Wrath to Whosoever does not.
---char on 2/1/10

Thank you. I am really glad I asked this question.

I have gotten some GREAT insight from you folks.

Keep the responses coming. I am learning alot here.

I honestly didn't think Jesus was hoping God would get him out of going to the cross because during his ministry, he told his disciples that he would die for the sins of the world and rise from the dead. But i can only imagine what he went through the years and days before actually going to the cross - it must have been HORRIBLE for Him. I don't think I'd let my enemies nail me to the cross, stone me maybe, but strip me and nail me? Gosh, that's a hard one.
---Donna on 2/1/10

As a Christian who has suffered panic attacks and such almost my entire life, I can especially appreciate that Jesus went through that--knowing in advance of His coming that He would at that point feel fear! It almost makes me cry at the thought that He was that willing to take on our sins--and our sufferings.
---Mary on 1/30/10

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I agree with all the posts below. Jesus, like any man, agonized over the pain, suffering, humiliation and eventual death that He would face through His "trial" and crucifixion. And as an innocent man, knowing the punishment was unjust, the agony was mentally and emotionally intensified. Yet He knew and came to accepted His fate as revealed in His question to Peter "the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"
---joseph on 1/30/10

No, Jesus knew full well what was happening and what was going to happen to him before it actually did. When he was praying in the garden he was already beginning to feel the horrors of crucifixion and going to be separated from holy God: and young Jesus at 32 years of age and being completely innocent and holy was about to take on sins, and he sweated out drops of blood. And he said: "Papa, Father, all things possible to you: take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I joy, but what you joy."
---Eloy on 1/30/10

Jesus was both God and Man. No one before him had this characteristic. He knew before the beginning of time that he would have to redeem mankind. The plea for the Father to take away the cup, in my opinion, is twofold.
1st He was flesh. In that hour he had expressed, to his apostles John, Peter and James, that the flesh is weak but the spirit is strong.Therefore, that plea was a plea of the flesh. But the spirit overcame the flesh. There is reward to those who endure (Power).
Next, I believe that Jesus gave us an example on how to endure tribulation. To gain strength trough prayer, and to remember that our Father's will be done.
---patra8793 on 1/30/10

The Word says that he went to the cross, despising the shame. He knew in the garden what taking the cup of humanity would cost him and three times he said, "Let this cup pass from me", once for spirit, once for soul, and once for body. He laid down his life spirit, soul, and body to take up humanity spirit, soul, and body. This cup would entail even man's separation from God. It was that separation he dreaded. Jesus knew what He came to do.
---Linda on 1/30/10

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Simply put, Jesus did not want to die.
Hebrews 5:7
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared.
He asked God to change His will, not once, but three times.
He made it clear that if there was no change in God's plan for him, he would carry out God's will, but prayed that if it were possible, "this cup" would pass from him, yet not my will but yours be done.
Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
---ashle7439 on 1/29/10

No. I think he was expressing the human part of his emotions..fear. But He followed it up with expressing the God in Him with "but not my will but yours be done". Jesus felt all of the emotions that we humans experience. He did not sin, give into them, or even ruminate in them as we do. Praise God! He is so perfect, loving and wonderful!
---jody on 1/29/10

Yes, I feel His Heavenly Father was demonstrating to the world that His son was going to experience every human pain and suffering which was not limited by His time on the cross. So even before the crucifixion experience one can go back and see the pain He endured which went beyond the physical. I don't feel he was trying to get out of going to the cross, since he says "let thy will be done" . He was only experiencing what no previous man had ever felt before and would ever have to hence
---Gerardo on 1/29/10

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