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Beheaded For Witness Of Jesus

20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God," does this Scripture speaks of people in tribulation or before the tribulation time?

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 ---mima on 3/1/10
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MarkV, Yes, it was great debating with you, also. I'd hope that nobody gets their heads chopped off, too, but, Revelation 20:4 dashes that hope to pieces. Nevertheless, Maranatha and Shalom to you! :)
---Gordon on 4/1/10

Gordon, thank you for the discussion. I think that I have explained that humans fail not that no one can be trusted sometimes. You are convince and it is in your mind very solid so I will leave you peace and hope that nobodies head is cut off. Take care my friend, peace
---MarkV. on 3/26/10

Mark, Part of your last post only ECHOED what I said to you. You made it out as if people cannot be trusted to ever tell the truth. You said that in an effort to invalidate Pamela Schuffert's information. I equate Schuffert's words of warning today with Noah's words of warning of long ago. The scene is playing out no differently. Most people dismiss messages that warn of Persecution and of Judgment, including those in the Church. RESEARCH the New World Order, the 7 Noahide Laws, the transgressing of which calls for DECAPITATION, when in effect under the Anti-Christ. Pres. Bush #41 already signed for these laws in the 90's. Research this out, they're all tied together and they explain the existence of the guillotines as per Rev. 13 and Rev. 20:4.
---Gordon on 3/26/10

Gordon, everyone in life lies, except Christ. At some point in time people will lie, all the other times they tell the truth. Some times they speak of something that is false and other times something true. But whatever they say cannot be trusted as real Truth. They could be wrong or they could be right. We have no way of knowing unless we find out for sure after the fact.
As I said about Jim Jones. He spoke that he was from God. And convinced 980's people. They believed him and did not mock him, and they are all dead. He was human, but they put their faith and trust in him. Gave up their homes and left everyone behind believing in him. All come short of the glory of God.
---MarkV. on 3/23/10

MarkV, All people are not untrustworthy all of the time. Everything that people say are not always lies or untruths. You respond as if they were. I'll tell you this, many of these "great men" of the Bible, as you allude, were not "great men" in the eyes of many of the people around them. These Bible characters are put on a pedestal where they do not belong. They were faithful servants, but not super-heroic idols. Only GOD is worthy of a Pedestal. Pamela Schuffert is serving GOD no less faithfully than any one of these Biblical characters. She has a different a different warning and message to give, but she's a true faithful servant nonetheless. She couldn't be considered such if her information was not true and accurate.
---Gordon on 3/23/10

MarkV, My use of Noah is most certainly fitting for this case. For I am talking about the people of Noah's time who mocked at his declaration to them of GOD's Warning of the coming Flood. They had no "proof" that GOD spoke to Noah. They had no way of "seeing" the coming Flood beforehand, all that they had to go by, if they were to believe Noah, were....the WORDS of Noah. So it is, with the coming guillotines. We have a lady raised up by GOD to find out about these guillotines, and to share this information with the rest of the Church. But, like the many people who mocked about the coming Flood, so, are many people mocking about the coming guillotines. Some just simply will not believe until their heads are under the blade.
---Gordon on 3/23/10

Donna66, The awareness of these guillotines helps some in the Church, especially those who are now luke-warm, to get SERIOUS, and start following GOD faithfully, and to start growing STRONG in their Faith, because it's going to take a STRONG follower of GOD to stand up to the stress and pressure of the persecutions, tortures and slaughterings dealt to them by the followers of the Anti-Christ. It will not be easy, one bit, to lay down our lives for YAHUSHUA's sake. All of these whimsical and romantic sentimentalies of being "Left Behind tough-guy super-heroes, fighting against the Anti-Christ" is a bunch of lame garbage. The Trib will be THE WORST and most FRIGHTENING time in history. Not a lazy-day picnic.
---Gordon on 3/23/10

Gordon, my point on this subject is that man fails and God never fails. There was and is great man in history who did great things for Christ while in their own lives they might have been terrible. Others were great guys in life but did terrible with the Word of God. Humans are prone to failure but even through them, God picked a remnant for Himself and they have carried the Truth through the ages for all others after the Bible closed. And the very reason we still have the Truth with us. Because God has guided and protected those whom He has chosen. But what they bring has to conform to Scripture are it is not from God. No new revelation is needed for all the revelation we needed is found in Scripture.
---MarkV. on 3/21/10

Many people look to the spectacular or the weird to focus their thoughts on. We should look to JESUS. Early Christians faced many dangers that were open and known by all.

They did not concentrate on the dangers of being fed to lions. They concentrated on JESUS CHRIST and glorifying Him. We should be living for JESUS not looking or making up stories. Remeber JESUS asked have you feed your neighbor, visit those in prison, clothe the naked and visited the sick.

Not going about proclaiming events.
---Samuel on 3/20/10

Gordon, you are using wrong logic here. Noah is in Scripture. We can look and read what was said to him and what happen and the proof is in the Word of God.
What proof do you really have other then you believe her? None whatsoever. Your example is Noah, and how they mocked him and you say, look what happened for not believing.
Now take the same example you gave on Noah and use it on the members of Jim Jones, they were also told something, but in this case, they didn't mock him, they all believed him, and look what happened for believing him.
---MarkV. on 3/20/10

I can't argue with the fact that "the Church is blinded to GOD's Judgment coming to her and America." and that much of the church is luke-warm.

There are plenty of prophesies visibly coming to pass, so that the church should wake least those who are going to.
But searching out "concentration camps" and guillotines isn't going to help the church prepare. If these things exist, what are you going to do about them?

The Church needs to prepare spiritually ...not spend time locating every possible threat. Their safety will be in the Lord and He will guide them step by step. If they are prayerful and awake spiritually, they will hear God tell when it is time for them act and how.
---Donna66 on 3/19/10

MarkV, What about Noah? He (only) had GOD's direct Words to him, and he warned the people about the coming Flood, but, because they could not see the Flood, and because Noah could not prove to them that GOD really spoke to him and that the Flood really was coming...they MOCKED him and scoffed at his warnings to them. Noah did not have any Scriptures that prophecied the coming Flood. He could not prove to the people that GOD spoke to him of a great Flood coming. So, they refused to heed the warnings of the Flood, and they all, but eight, perished. YAHUSHUA said that those who have not seen, and yet still believe are blessed. And, yes, He was referring to our belief in Him, but, the principle still applies to this matter as well.
---Gordon on 3/19/10

Donna66, The information that Pamela Schuffert shares is helping the american Church to prepare herself. Because right now, the Church is blinded to GOD's Judgment coming to her and America. We have fallen for the doctrines that tickle the ears: prosperity, OSAS, "GOD wants you always HaPpY!". The last thing on much of the american Church's mind is GOD's coming Judgment on her, for her puke-warm, covetous, pseudo-religious, fleshly life-style....YAHUSHUA says "...because thou art LUKE-WARM, and neither cold nor hot, I will SPUE THEE OUT of My Mouth. Because thou sayest, 'I AM RICH, AND INCREASED WITH GOODS, AND HAVE NEED OF NOTHING.', and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:..."
---Gordon on 3/19/10

Yes, by all means check out Pamela Schuffert for yourself. I've been doing that. She's a very colorful and interesting lady who is free to go on "secret missions" to Germany and elsewhere. If you've run out of Stephen King novels, she is a good read.

I don't doubt that she is sincere. However, every single thing she offers is hearsay. You just have to take her word. She knows all the well known Christian ministries, including their leaders/founders and can tell you which are plants, traitors, weaklings, or demoniacally possessed. It's just my opinion, but I'm not sure this is edifying to the body of Christ.
---Donna66 on 3/18/10

Gordon ... I will prove the guillotines do not exist when you have proved to me that the death ray street lamps do not exist
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/18/10

Gordon, We are to only put our faith in the Word of God. Man fails many times but God never fails. Man, though he tries very hard to be right and truthful, and be sincere, they fail. That is why marriages fail. I do trust some of what is said by great teachers of the Word, but I can compare what they say with God's Word. If it is not there, then it is only speculation are their opinions and cannot be trusted as Truth. It does not matter who the teacher is or writer, we should alway compare what they say to Scripture. Some who have a wrong theology twist the meaning of God's Word but what they forget is that many other passages will prove them wrong anyway. You cannot proof what Pamela says with Scripture. It is just not there.
---MarkV. on 3/18/10

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MarkV, According to you, then, we cannot trust what anyone in the Christian Media has to say, RIGHT? Since there is so much info that is not directly mentioned in the Holy Scriptures, so, that info is always untrue and untrustworthy, RIGHT? GOD has certain information and Prophecies that were sealed up...UNTIL...the End-Times came. So, you ONLY READ the Holy Bible, then, right? You trust nothing else that is said, by anyone, if they are not directly QUOTING THE SCRIPTURES, right? GOD lays it on the hearts of a number of HIS people to research stuff, such as Pamela has done, for the sake of HIS people, for their preparation for the times for which the info pertains. Just let yourself believe it! Research! Don't just mock, Brother.
---Gordon on 3/18/10

Alan of UK, It is by GOD's Mercy and Grace that HE allows the truth of the guillotines to be revealed to HIS people. Isn't GOD Big enough to do even that? And, why would HE not let HIS Saints to find this stuff out? I'm a stooge for relaying the truth? Because you won't do some research on your own?, and are quite satisfied at staying with the level of information of what you (think you) know about regarding the End-Times...? you, therefore, are totally convinced that Pamela Schuffert, and I, must be lying and/or are exaggerating? Do you have proof that they do not exist? Yes, I'll throw the "burden of proof" back on you since you're so 100% certain that "the guillotines do not exist".
---Gordon on 3/18/10

Scripture explains this perfectly.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
---kathr4453 on 3/17/10

BTW: "the great tribulation" is the product of Satan's wrath--not God's wrath. After all--who's doin' the head-hackin'?
---BruceB on 3/10/10

The Great Tribulation is called the Day of the Lord, the Day of HIS Wrath, the wrath of the lamb.

If Paul, being beheaded was one that John saw, Paul certainly isn't living through the Great Tribulation such as has never been before in all the earth.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/10

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I agree with MarkV and alan.
---Rod4Him on 3/14/10

Gordon, I believe you have excepted the view of Pamela and have taken it to be the Truth without proof. That could be a very big mistake in your part. The only Truth there really is, is found in the Word of God. Everyone else fails. You say for me to look her up on the web, don't you realize how many people are out there giving their opinions on what is happening, expecting you to believe what they say without proof? Thousands. Each one says they have the Truth. You said,
"The whole thing was intended to be kept SECRET. Except, GOD let's HIS people find out the Truth"
God wants us to know the Truth alright but the Truth of His Word. And can be proven by the Bible when we compare what someone says.
---MarkV. on 3/14/10

Gordon ... I beleive that all street lights are so constructed so that they can be used, when a certaain electric frequecy is used, as death rays.

Prove me wrong.

I also beleive that you are a government stooge, talking about these guillotines, to divert us from the truth about the street lamps.

The proof of that is that they have not removed you from these blogs. If what you say is true, they would not allow you to say it

Prove me wrong
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/14/10

Gordon --- You said And, just as I trust GOD's Written Word, even though I don't have visual proof that all that is written therein is True, and still I know that it IS all it is with Pamela Schuffert's findings

Believe whatever you want. But I hope you are not saying that you put Pamela Schuffert's work on the same level as Scripture.
---Donna66 on 3/13/10

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Donna66, "highly improbable" but, not impossible. And, just as I trust GOD's Written Word, even though I don't have visual proof that all that is written therein is True, and still I know that it IS all it is with Pamela Schuffert's findings. I know what she is sharing is true. GOD want's HIS people to know what is really going on, because it will affect all of HIS people that will not be raptured. I respect our Military and our soldiers. But, they are only doing what they are told, under command. Those of the higher-ups who've planned these guillotines are not going to divulge "confedential information" to the ranks. The whole thing was intended to be kept SECRET. Except, GOD let's HIS people find out the Truth.
---Gordon on 3/13/10

MarkV, Brother, check her out for yourself! You have Internet access. You really can't doubt, LEGITIMATELY, about the guillotines, unless you truly research for yourself. I've been studying End-Times Prophecy for 30 years. GOD put a strong interest and love in my heart for this Prophecy. So, I've learned alot about Prophecy and of what is going on in this World that is coming together to fulfill said Prophecy. I have the Spirit of Truth in me Who points me to the Truth. Just because the idea of guillotines in the good ol' U.S.A. is hard to believe, it does not mean they do not exist. Remember, YAHUSHUA is returning SOON, and before He does, the Anti-Christ must first rule for a season. And, he will rule GLOBALLY....that includes the U.S.A.!
---Gordon on 3/13/10

Gordon --- You are correct. I cannot prove the existence of God. I believe in Him because I believe what the BIBLE (not some other book) tells me...and I have faith.
But I cannot convince an unbeliever.

I don't doubt Shuffert's intentions. But even devoted, well-intentioned Christians can be misled.

As a senior citizen,I have many years experience with the military, both as a member and as a civilian. I know she claims to have interviewed military people, but my experience and knowledge of military facilities, even recently, tells me that her claims are highly improbable!

I will do anything I can to thwart the NWO. But if they take control, I have no protection, anyway, but the Rock Jesus Christ.
---Donna66 on 3/10/10

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
---MIchael on 3/10/10

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Gordon, having a true love for Christ is a test every individual Christian should take to see if he is saved or not. But just because you think she has love for Christ does not mean she has her doctrines correct. As you can see on this website there is many kinds of teachings and I can tell you that a lot of them are very sincere but very wrong when compared to Scripture. When you speak of a person, even you do not know if she is saved or not for only God knows. Many great man in history did wonderful works for us to learn from yet those same people made many bad decisions also on the Word of God. Every person fails. The NWO mainly comes from all those secret societies. Could be right could be wrong. Nothing to compare with that is written.
---MarkV. on 3/10/10


It all depends on how you feel about head-hackin'. If gettin' your head hacked off ain't tribulation to you (in or out of the Big One)... well, then what would be?

Of course, those beheaded, who John saw, could have had it happen to them in 130AD or 1030AD or 2030AD. I can't see any dates in the verse (the beast is only part of the werse.)

If it's gonna happen... the objective is for us to rejoice in it.

Joh 6:60 ...This is an hard saying, who can hear it?

BTW: "the great tribulation" is the product of Satan's wrath--not God's wrath. After all--who's doin' the head-hackin'?
---BruceB on 3/10/10

Donna66, Can you prove that GOD exists? Can you prove that YAHUSHUA came to Earth as a Man and was crucified and rose again? How then can we know these things are true? We CAN'T "prove" it. We see GOD's Creation and we know that HE exists. We have GOD's Written Word, the Holy Scriptures, and we take HIS Word and, in faith, we believe it. Now, this Pamela Schuffert is a dedicated Christian, you can tell that by her written testimony, and by what she writes, and has said. She has a love for GOD, and a love for the TRUTH. She has absolutely no reason to lie. She is on the same team as us. She is living and fighting spiritually for the same things we are. She has been given the opportunities to find out the things she has for OUR BENEFIT.
---Gordon on 3/10/10

Gordon -- I agree with you in general, about the NWO.

But don't shift the burden of proof to me, to prove that the guillotines or concentration camps or plans for organ transplants do not exist.

For the rules of logic tell us that it is impossible to prove that something does not exist. The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the person making an assertion or proposition.
Even our legal system operates on this principle.
---Donna66 on 3/9/10

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Alan of U.K., The dead bodies will be used for "organ donations", bodily experimentations, etc. Those things can't properly be done with gassed, or burned, electrocuted bodies, or with poisonous drug-injected bodies. The main reason is that the punishment for breaking any of the "7 Noahide Laws" is decapitation. Nevermind the guillotines of old....with today's advanced knowledge and technology, there's no reason to doubt that they've come up with a strong-steeled, sharper-than-sharp type of blade, that will hack off the head in a flash at the first try. Again, Revelation 20:4 plainly tells us that the Tribulation Saints will "lose their heads" and cry out to the LORD for His Vengeance on those who murdered them.
---Gordon on 3/9/10

Elder, Yes, absolutely. Evangelizing the lost and informing, equipping and encouraging the Saints is critical at this late, late hour. So, nevertheless, the Saints must be aware of what is out there, how the End-Time Prophecy is taking shape, know that YAHUSHUA is already at the Door, awaiting to pick up His Bride, the Wedding Guests, and then to return to reign on Earth.
---Gordon on 3/9/10

Donna66, The men and women who are currently helping to form this NWO are everywhere. Common everyday type people. They are satanists, for, it is for Satan's "son", the Son of Perdition, who it is being prepared for. He will lead it, as a (false) messiah. When you're a satanist, you do not care who you have to step on, sacrifice and kill to get your mission accomplished. You may not believe that the GUILLOTINES do not exist, but, where's the proof that they don't?. Obama is doing his part to morph America into a socialist/communist country that will, then, be able to be controlled by the NWO. As an free, sovereign nation it couldn't be done. But, we're becoming communist, and this is part of GOD's Judgment against us.
---Gordon on 3/9/10

Gordon -- I've seen websites that try to sell this "hundreds of guillotines" idea. But being on the internet doesn't mean they have a shred of truth in them. What they claim as "proof", isn't even evidence! Christians may eventually be martyred by officials of the NWO...some Biblical prophesies might support this...but guillotines? No way.
---Donna66 on 3/8/10

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Elder ... surely you've got it the wrong way round?

Are these beheading not going to be BY the NWO, and inflicted on Christians?

That means the more Christioans there are, the more will be beheaded.

So evangelism would thus not keep anyone from being subjected to this punishment, but make more people subject to it.

Mind you, I don't beleive in the guillotine stuff, nor really in any NWO plans to execute people if they don't have a chip put in them.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/8/10

The martyred through the tribulation period, and those who resisted the idolatry worship of the beast will also reign.
---catherine on 3/8/10

GUILLOTINES!! What? Is there anyone here that thinks a guillotine is the only way to hack off someones head? Hey, how about all those swords that are available.
But, the REAL issue is, what are you/we doing to keep anyone from be subjected to this punishment? Does anyone believe in evangelism any more?
---Elder on 3/8/10

Peter ... I'd agree with you that John was using beheading as a symbol of all methods of execution.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/8/10

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I always though of it as a bit strange, as decapitation has passed out of style some time ago. I will only place a POSSIBLE idea, and if it inappropriate please tell me and I will change my way of thinking. Is it possible that John was specifically shown the people who had been beheadedbecause that was the punishment HE understood, and there were other people, executed in other ways, as well
---peter3594 on 3/8/10

Gordon ... Why would the NWO use guillotines?

Gas chambers would be far more efficient.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/8/10

Donna66, I would guarantee you everything I own, that if you will do some serious research, of course, again, asking GOD for HIS Revelation and Knowledge, that you will find these guillotines really do exist in the States, hundreds of them. I believe they are everywhere Globally. The NWO has been slowly coming together behind-the-scenes. OF COURSE we're not going to casually hear about it on the nightly news, or read about it in the paper. It is (mainly) GOD's people that find these truths out, for GOD wants HIS people prepared, and assured that HIS Prophetic Word will come to pass. Again, regarding Revelation 20:4, America is not exempt, we are too full of iniquity, (unfortunately).
---Gordon on 3/8/10

Cluny, "Doom and gloom", trials and tribulation are exactly what the GUILLOTINES are there for. The intention of the Anti-Christ and his New World Order will be to bring DOOM and GLOOM to the true Saints (Christians) of the Church. The GUILLOTINES are there to behead anyone who resists and opposes the Anti-Christ and the NWO. True Christians will definitely be among those who will be enemies of the NWO. It will probably be declared to the World that Christians are the main ones who are trying to prevent the New World Order of "World 'peace' and true 'brotherhood of man'" from coming to fruition, so they must be dealt with, and rid of for "true peace" to take place.
---Gordon on 3/8/10

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Cluny, And, most importantly, the Guillotines are installed for YAHUVEH (God the Father) will prove His Saints. The whole Church will not be raptured. The real faithful ones will be, those "without spot or wrinkle", like the 5 wise Virgins. GOD knows which ones they are, too. Those of us, who have compromised with SIN and have been following more often the flesh instead of His Spirit will be the ones "left behind" to go through the Trials of the Tribulation. But, regardless, GOD promises to strengthen His people, that they give up their lives for their Saviour and Lord YAHUSHUA (JESUS), and bear witness of Him. GOD is Merciful even in His Chastenings. (Praise HIM!)
---Gordon on 3/8/10

The sites that claim to know of concentration camps and Guillotines often cite as "proof", areas on a military base newly reinforced with coiled barbed wire.

Did it ever occur to them that some things in the military (including weaponry) involve "classified" information... and that barbed wire may be to keep people OUT, not in?
---Donna66 on 3/7/10

Gordon, the only references to guillotines in America I've seen on the web are from sites that irresponsibly report gloom, doom, and rumors of boom with NO substantiation.
---Cluny on 3/7/10

Gordon -- I pretty much agree with what you say about the NWO. But it is the existence of secret Guillotines in America that I find highly questionable.
---Donna66 on 3/5/10

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Donna66, Please pray to the LORD and seriously seek His Face about this matter. The Anti-Christ's New World Order has been in building for decades and decades behind closed doors. That's how Satan builds his kingdom, in secrecy. The popular news medias either know nothing about it all or are a part of it. (I believe BOTH). So, the source of Truth has to be gotten via some other venue, like the Internet, which GOD is using, (despite how much Satan is also using it also). Does the american Church REALLY BELIEVE that she is above GOD's severe Judgment?, and that she is EXEMPT from coming under the spell of the Anti-Christ and his NWO? It's time for the Church to get her head out of the sand!!!
---Gordon on 3/5/10

Gordon -- Schuffert's credentials are not those of a journalist. She is a graduate of Elim Bible College, New York. Her late father was an American Army officer, famous for his cartoons during WWII, who worked at the Pentagon during the 1980's, where Schuffert believes he was involved in a Satanic coven. Schuffert's background includes no professional employment as either a writer or researcher.

I'm not interested in popular personalities. But when serious charges are made, I want to hear them from a credible source. Being Christian doesn't necessarily mean "believable" to me.
---Donna66 on 3/4/10

Cluny, The 1,000 Year Reign of YAHUSHUA (JESUS) will be on Earth. He will begin this Reign when He returns. He will cast the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet into the Lake of Fire and His Millenial Reign begins. That will be the Time when the lion will lie down with the lamb. These two animals were mentioned for the Messiah YAHUSHUA (JESUS CHRIST) is both a Lion and a Lamb. Satan will be bound in the Abyss during this 1,000 Years (and more than likely his fallen angels, though I'm not 100% certain of that), and at the end of the 1,000 Years, Satan will be loosed for a short while, he will attempt to overthrow YAHUSHUA and THEN, that old Snake will finally be cast into the Eternal Lake of Fire.
---Gordon on 3/4/10

Donna66, Search Pamela Schuffert out on the Internet. First, pray to the LORD to guide you to the Truth, be OPEN to the Truth, and trust HIM to guide you to it. The LORD wants HIS followers to "study and show themselves approved." Nobody in GOD's Kingdom has to be a popular well-known "somebody" to be approved. GOD does not regard man's obsession with "cult of personality".
---Gordon on 3/4/10

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Gordon-- Who is Pamela Schuffert? For what organization does she work? Anyone can call themselves a "journalist", you know. Even those whose reputations are well known have have proved themselves pretty unreliable lately.
---Donna66 on 3/3/10

Cluny, There is a Christian lady-journalist, Pamela Schuffert (sic?) who, that is, for one, has been investigating the subject of the coming New World Order, who has substantiated it. She has talked with high-ranking and low-ranking military personnel, with political leaders, those in the Government, the CIA, the FBI, etc. who have verified the existence of the Guillotines in America. The surface reasons are for executions of terrorists and threats of the like. But, the Anti-Christ's kingdom is being prepared and readied to use the Guillotines for whoever opposes the New World Order, and who violate the Laws of the New World Order, the 7 Noahide Laws. Christians are the main targets.
---Gordon on 3/3/10

Larry ... there is no "but" about it!

Beheadings were very common at the Tower of London, they were by axe or sword (often blunt instruments wielded by incompetents ... hence the many occasions when it took several strikes to sever the head and kill the vistim)

What a horrendous history we have!

But hangings used to go wrong, and I hear electrocution and lethal injection does not always work well.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/2/10

I thought the beheadings were possibly under Nero who was brutal and burned wax covered Christians for entertainment, but I believe Mark Eaton has it right that this may be during the tribulation. Beheading was not the common punishment used by Ceasars for christians and I confused the eras.
Alan is right about the French but my friend from the UK says beheadings were common at the Tower of London and its the history is responsible for the "off with your head" remark now used in jest.
---larry on 3/2/10

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\\It has been said that Mary Queen of Scots was killed ONLY after several attempts at beheading. Somehow I got these historical tidbits tangled and out of time.
---Donna66 on 3/2/10

It did take three blows of the axe to sever Mary Stuart's head--and even then, according to accounts, there was a bit of sinew or muscle that had to be sawn by the axe.

Henry VIII arranged for a swordsman from France to behead Anne Boleyn, as that was presumably more merciful and efficient.
---Cluny on 3/2/10

Donna "It has been said that Mary Queen of Scots was killed ONLY after several attempts at beheading"

That was a common occurrence.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/2/10

Alan of UK --- Sorry. I guess I've seen too many movies about British royalty. Mary Queen of Scots was beheaded (but not by guillotine). The guillotine was developed by the French. And the fact that it was eventually deemed inefficient is true. It has been said that Mary Queen of Scots was killed ONLY after several attempts at beheading. Somehow I got these historical tidbits tangled and out of time.
---Donna66 on 3/2/10

Whoa...first of all there are two distinct peoples being talked about in this scripture.

The first is who is sitting on the thrones. It is inconclusive from this verse who is sitting on the thrones. I would suggest we refer back to the throne scene in chapter 4. Or to look at the court seated in Daniel 7. Either way, the thones are not occupied by the beheaded saints.

The rest of the verse, applies to the saints beheaded DURING the Tribulation. We see the saints martyred BEFORE the Tribulation in Rev chapter 6. Their number is completed before the judgment on the earth starts. These then, must be only those who are martyred during the Tribulation, and the description about the beast bears this out.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/2/10

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Donna ... I don't think that the guillotine was ever used in England. It was used duirin the French revolution, which was a long time after Henry V111 !

LIke you, I doubt whether there are any at all in the US!
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/2/10

if you continue to read the passage it says those that had not worshipped the beast ,or his image,or had taken his mark.these are those that die during the tribulation for rejecting the beast,the anti christ.
---tom2 on 3/2/10

\\ Guillotines went out of fashion sometime after the reign of King Henry the VIII....\\

Et reliqua.

Donna66, I don't know where you got this idea.

Guillotines were not even invented until (and for) the French Revolution some 200 years later. Why were they used? Prcisely BECAUSE they were efficient and (it was believed) would not cause needless suffering of those executed.

As far as hanging at the time of Henry VIII, the main time it was used was for the terrible punishment of being hanged, drawn, and quartered. The condemned man was hanged, cut down while still alive, bowels then removed (while living), and body pulled apart by horses.

This was usually reserved for Roman Catholics.
---Cluny on 3/2/10

Guillotines went out of fashion sometime after the reign of King Henry the VIII. The reason? They don't work very well. If you want to kill someone, hanging is easier and surer.
If you want to torture someone, the possibilities are endless. I strongly doubt the presence of guillotines in America.
---Donna66 on 3/1/10

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\\The GUILLOTINES are already in the United States, ready to be used on Christians (and anyone else, no doubt) who will oppose the Anti-Christ and his New World Order.\\

I've been hearing this rumor for over half my lifetime (60 years), but nobody has ever been able to sustantiate it from a reliable source.

Can you?
---Cluny on 3/1/10

I am with Cluny's comments here.
---Rod4Him on 3/1/10

---miche3754 on 3/1/10

I am with Cluny's comments here.
---Rod4Him on 3/1/10

20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God," does this Scripture speaks of people in tribulation or before the tribulation time?

This is AFTER the tribulation.
"After" the tribulation all saints are raised from the dead, and spend 1000 yeras with Jesus judging those who are not raised.

Anong those who have ben raised from the dead, and sit in judgment, are the saints who were beheaded.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
---francis on 3/1/10

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Ever since the beginning of the Church, martyrdom for Christ's sake has been an ever-present possibility, though more likely in some places than in others. With the rise of mahometanism, the probability grows.

It's speaking of the entire period of the Church.

Note, btw, that these SOULS were given crown and reigned with Christ "1000 years."

Ergo, this reign takes place in heaven, and not on earth, as they were NOT rejoined to their bodies.

And as also follows, the millennial reign is not to be interpreted as an earthly event or years.
---Cluny on 3/1/10

I am convinced at this juncture that Revelation 20:4 applies MAINLY, at least, to those Saints who are to be be-headed during the 7-year Tribulation. The GUILLOTINES are already in the United States, ready to be used on Christians (and anyone else, no doubt) who will oppose the Anti-Christ and his New World Order. These Guillotines will more than likely be distributed and set up all across the Globe, in every country. This is Satan's excuse to torture and kill Christians, and also for him to have his "BIG HOUR" of worship through his Son of Perdition. Satanists are everywhere getting ready for the big show down.
---Gordon on 3/1/10

In addition to Bill's answer, which I liked, maybe it's referring to those who were beheaded for Christ.

I think many times we "theologians" get lost in preceived minute details and forget the big picture.

Similar to Bill's answer in relation to the mentioned verse, we should be so committed to Christ that it doesn't matter when those things happen. We are ready.
---Rod4Him on 3/1/10

Whenever we Christians first read this, maybe we were thinking about if we would be ready to get our heads cut off for the testimony of Jesus. And so, we possibly were praying and desiring for God to make us so we would be glad (Psalm 100:2) and fearless (1 John 4:18, Hebrews 2:14-15) to face being beheaded for Jesus and for loving all people (Matthew 5:46) like God wants. And because, in our hearts, in prayer we would want to be honored to so die for Jesus, if God so chooses, we therefore have already done this in our hearts, by *desiring* to please God like this.

If, then we all in our *hearts*, at least, *have* been beheaded for Jesus, already, Mima, this could be talking about *all* of us (c:
---Bill_bila5659 on 3/1/10

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