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Biden To Spilt Israel

Vice President Biden says," Palestinians deserve a 'viable' independent state." Notice political party makes no difference, this administration, the last administration are all determined to divide Israel's land. To divide Israel's land goes directly against God's wishes. Comment?

Moderator - Israel to this day doesn't have all the original land that God gave them; only a small subset.

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Moderator: Are we sure that God actually desires Israel to have the land God gave them - God allowed a number of contries to invade - why not the Palestinians as well. I do not like the Palestinians, but again, I do not think Israel is acting kindly. And kindness (not like what Saul did, which was not kindness, it was rebellion) is not in itself evil. If Biden desires Israel to be kind to t he people in its land, that is not in itself anything wrong, though he may be making a mistake (if God does not WANT Israel to be kind), but he is not actually sinning unless he knows God does not want it
---peter3594 on 4/2/10

larry -- since the Oslo Accords, all the concessions have come from the Israeli side.
The Palestinians still seem to want nothing less than the destruction of Israel as a nation.
---Donna66 on 3/29/10

My recollection was that part of Jordan on the east of the Jordan River was part of Palestian when the land was partitioned in 1948. Why do not the "Palestians" not claim that part of the land?

I think that is one reason why Jordan is slowly trying to separate themselves from the Palestinians and denying them citizenship in Jordan. The Palestinians could claim part of Jordan if they wanted.
---Rod4Him on 3/28/10

Donna66 please reconsider. The hand wringers are a little over the top forgetting that even Israel believes in a two-state solution and every administration since Daddy Bush has condemned some of the construction in East Jerusalem.
The rub is over Israel's right to build in this section of East Jerusalem, to which Bibi appears to be in legal and proper standing to keep building.
The problem is that Israel should not ask the United States to broker peace if it just wants to flex its sovereign muscle and take its rightful inheritance in land.
Don't waste our time and invite Biden to fly across the Ocean only to break his face.
---larry on 3/28/10

Numbers 26:2-27:12, 34:1-35:12, Joshua, Ezekiel 47-48.
Isn't Jordan considered the Palestinian state? The Lord owns everything, and He knows where every boundary marker belongs. Of course, Syrian and Turkish claims do not supersede God's title. Not forgetting the irony of the 'Palestinians' now disputing the ownership of land that was paid for by the Jews in the 19th and 20th Centuries. See Ezekiel 47:22, Romans 9:24.
Ger.toshav: An opinion of a Rab who rejects the Messiah is without value.
Donna66: God has never punished any country for rebuking sinful Israel, but only those who punished Israel excessively.
---Glenn on 3/28/10

It seems to me this administration favors the Palestinians. Biden swore the enduring support of the United States for Isreal. But quickly, thereafter, became "insulted"
because Israel announced new housing to be built in east Jerusalem. And Hillary Clinton enthusiastically backed him up!

Now Obama and Netanyahu are having private talks, too unpleasant for even a token appearance of the press. The freeze is on.
If Obama has any aspirations of brokering a peace in that part of the world, he can forget it.

I think America will suffer (but I'm not sure just how) for the way they have treated this long-time ally, the "apple of God's eye".
---Donna66 on 3/23/10


While I cannot categorically refute such visions, I find ones like this highly suspect. For example, the Second Secret of Fatima includes "God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.".

Not even Jesus asked for people to worship him. If Mary would say such things, this would put her in a higher place than Jesus himself, which is absurd.
---StrongAxe on 3/23/10

StrongAxe, I know Christians do not believe in these apparitions of Mary. Mary is asleep IN THE LORD, not floating around somewhere.
---kathr4453 on 3/23/10


Muslims may revere Mary, but Christians did so first. The Qur'an may have a chapter about Mary, but the Bible mentions her as well.

Not all apparitions are from Satan. The Bible mentions several others (for example, Samuel appearing to Saul via the Witch of Endor, The Transfiguration, God appearing to Abraham, Paul's vision on the road to Damascus, etc.)

Now, as far as secret convenants go, that mey be true, and it may not be - it's all a matter of speculation.
---StrongAxe on 3/23/10

StrongAxe, we do know all apparitions are of Satan. We also know Islam adores Mary and even has a chapter in their Koran about Mary. They also worship Fatima as well. THE ONLY women Islam holds in high regard.

You may want to study many similarities between these two, one being prayer beads.

The Thirds secret of these three children was supposedly not revealed until Pope John's assassination attempt. This along with Arafat being very good friends with Pope John and invited many times to the Vatican should make anyone's eyes open! There was also a SECRET covenant made between Arafat and Pope John. I'm sure all this one day will be revealed and many will fall hook line and sinker
---kathr4453 on 3/23/10


I was raised RCC as a child, but disagree with them on too many issues today. I didn't say anything about whether they will eventually be involved with Antichrist. I was also not commenting on the legitimacy of the Fatima visions, merely on their lack of causal connection with Mohammed's daughter (and thus Islam).

There are many subjects about which I am not sufficiently informed to speak about dogmatically. However, one thing I do have some knowledge of is epistemology (i.e. the nature of truth) - especially what constitutes reasonable evidence, laws of inference, etc.

So while I can't say whether a particular theory is true or not, I CAN say whether it's "reasonable" given the evidence.
---StrongAxe on 3/22/10

The RCC will be a major player against Israel in the end time scenario. But the RCC has been notoriously anti-Israel throughout history.
---mima on 3/22/10

I totally agree! When Pope John went to Israel in 2000 he kissed all over the Arab community asking forgiveness for the crusades that drove them out. However did not really say much to the Jewish community asking their forgiveness for the Inquisitions!!!

Yes, there will be a happy marriage between the RCC and Islamic world through some sort of demonic apparition of Mary and Fatima as a major force coming against Israel!
---kathr4453 on 3/23/10

RCC people are offended when others outside speak lies about the denomination. Everything everyone says concerning the RCC in the end times, is all speculations and opinions from those who are against the RCC.
What history tells us about the RCC is already written. We know what it has done. We can find the differences in doctrine and the bad history behind the Church. But that is all truth. What is ahead for the Church no one knows.
---mary on 3/23/10

Interestingly the city of Damascus is totally included in the land given by God to Abraham.

The RCC will be a major player against Israel in the end time scenario. But the RCC has been notoriously anti-Israel throughout history.
---mima on 3/22/10

StrongAxe, I'm not sure if you are RCC. It would appear you are offended by any accusation of their being a major player with anti-Christ in the end times. However that belief is not anything new to those who have taught end times prophesy. We all know there is going to be a one world Religion . All religions out side of the Body of Christ WILL unite in some way.

Mary(demonic apparitions) will be what connects these two together.

and according to Pope John the third secret had to do with something that brought Pope John and Arafat in 2000 real real close! Odd! Also ODD, The Pope didn't want us to go to war against WHO???
---kathr4453 on 3/22/10


Yes, if you search for "fatima vision" islamic you do get a few sites that mentios what you claim, near the top of the search list.

However, that particular interpretation is only from one single source: an editorial by Father Thomas Carleton (i.e. a personal opinion, not official church doctrine). I couldn't find any other sites saying the same thing in a different way.

Besides, the article itself only links the names, but as I pointed out, just because a town is named after a person/event, that doesn'r imply a close link from everything that happens in that town to that same person/event, any more than Christians should start revering Madonna just because she shares a name with the Virgin Mary.
---StrongAxe on 3/22/10

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" Bishop Fulton Sheen,( A CATHOLIC) back in the 1950s, was the first Catholic on television [with his own religious talk show]. He wrote a book predicting that Islam would be converted to Christianity. In the same era, the 1950s, Bishop Sheen also wrote a book titled The Worlds First Love. He stated in his book: But after the death of Fatima (Muhammads daughter), Muhammad wrote, Thou shall be the most blessed of all women in paradise after Mary. This connection with the Muslims through Mary was predicted about fifty years ago.
Bishop Sheen was head of his time, at least as it relates to the future of Islam."

The Muslims will be included in the coming One World Religion, but it will not be Christianity.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/10

Why does the RCC have so many Mary Ghost Stories???
---John on 3/22/10

From a RCC website:


The apparitions of the Virgin Mary at Fatima Portugal are intimately tied to the Islamic world. The two great women of Islam are the Virgin Mary of Nazareth and Mohammed's daughter, named Fatima. After the death of his daughter, Fatima, Mohammed wrote: "Thou shalt be the most blessed of all the women in Paradise, after Mary". The village itself in Portugal called Fatima was named such by a Christian leader who married a Muslim maiden named after Mohammed's daughter.

When Pope John Paul II was almost killed in Saint Peter's Square by an extremist, some interpreted it as the fulfillment of a prophecy spoken by the young seer of Fatima.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/10

More speculations and no truth found in the notion that Fatima of Portugal was name after Mohammed's daughter. More conspiracy theories against the Catholic Church with no truth.
---Rev._R.M._Benjimen on 3/21/10

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It is irrelevant whom the city of Fatima, Portugal was named after. The apparation there is named after the city, NOT after the person the city is named after.

My example of Bethlehem Steel is named after the city the company is based in (Bethlehem, PA), and has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus (other than coincidence).

Anyone named Mordechai is named after the hero in the book of Esther, who was himself named after the pagan god Marduk, but we don't accuse such people of being pagans themselves.

There are endless other similar examples.
---StrongAxe on 3/21/10

Strongaxe, Fatima Portugal was named after Mohammed's daughter Fatima.

michael_e. You have to do the research on where this group of Arabs originally came from in the beginning, why they were not wanted or welcomed in other Arab countries. Why out of nowhere beginning with Arafat, who was with the original PLO terrorists, ( research the 1970's and all their horrible acts of terrorism, the murder of the Israelie wrestling team at Munic.) and you will begin to see the truth.
---kathr4453 on 3/20/10


"Our Lady of Fatima" is the name given to an apparition of the Virgin Mary reported by three children in Fatima, Portugal in 1917. This has about as much to do with Mohammed's daughter as Bethlehem Steel has to do with the birth of Jesus (i.e. a coincidence in name only, because the person/company in question is associated with a city named named after someone/somewhere else long ago).
---StrongAxe on 3/20/10

kathr4453 on 3/19/10 do you agree, that these "palestinians" are rejects from other countries in Israel's homeland?
---michael_e on 3/19/10

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Actually the Satmar hasids, together with every Orthodox rabbi on the planet before 1939, were right. Israel is not supposed to occupy their Eretz again until Messiah comes. They occupied it way too early. Thus, all this political trouble.
---ger.toshav on 3/19/10

michael_e, the idea of Palestinian ARABS was a made up hoax. Arafat, a terrorist, was even rejected by their own Arab nations and thrown out, going to Jerusalem. If you read the RCC history I believe in the 1000 AD, some pope actually changed the name of Jerusalem to Palestine. AND if you research Pope John and Arafat's close friendship, you will also find if you look a secret covenant made between them during the 2000 visit. It's all end times that will in some way unite Rome with Islam. Also note Mohamed's daughter Fatima (our lady of Fatima) is who Pope John says saved his live as he bowed to her statue. That statue of Fatima was named after Mohamed's daughter.

Satan has worked on his master plan for quite sometime now.
---kathr4453 on 3/19/10

For some insights behind the scenes of the Middle East dilemma visit Google and type in "Pretrib Rapture Politics."
---Jon on 3/19/10

The term Palestine had its roots in the Philistines, although Kathr is right that the Philistines had Greek roots. Furthermore, Emperor Hardrian in about 135 ad renamed the land to Palestine to get away from Jewishness of Judea. Hence, as Arabs moved to the land during the Umayyads and Ottoman empires, they settled there. Since those Arabs lived in the land named Palestine, they were and are called Palestinians. Similar to the concept that the Indians living in American are called Native Americans because the land is called America.
---Rod4Him on 3/19/10

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There is no such thing as a Palestinian ARAB. In Strongs as well as your bible, you will see in Genesis 10 and in Srrongs, Palestinian is aslo Philistine...The Philistines are GREEKS from the island of CRETE.
---kathr4453 on 3/19/10
So you are saying they are philistine greeks? And they migrated from greece?
---michael_e on 3/19/10

Just curious
Who are palestinians and where did they come from? Did they not migrate from surrounding arab countries? Do they speak palestinian?
If God gave Abraham a a land for His people when did he take it back?
---michael_e on 3/16/10

There is no such thing as a Palestinian ARAB. In Strongs as well as your bible, you will see in Genesis 10 and in Srrongs, Palestinian is aslo Philistine...The Philistines are GREEKS from the island of CRETE.
---kathr4453 on 3/19/10

Maybe someone knows:
I had a talk with my brother who is not saved, but is very intelligent who reads thousands of books and has read the Bible many times, who has a photographic memory who knows history, medicines by name, what they mean and so forth.
He told me that the country of Israel before the Jews moved in in 48 that it was owned by four rich Arab's, and that before the war ended rich Jews in America had been buying a lot of the land for years. The land was a waste. Palestinians lived there but never took care of it. The Arabs had sold the land thinking they could make money selling it with the intention that later they would get it back.
Has anyone heard such a story?
---MarkV. on 3/18/10

Good information and insights from Michele, Mima, and Strong Axe!
---Donna66 on 3/17/10

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These are all signs of the ever-impending Rapture, Israel is more isolated, a unified Europe, Russia,China (Gog/Magog) unite and prepare war against Israel, United States is preparing for a unified Americas, then "New World Order." There can never be peace with a shared Jerusalem, their ends are at cross-purposes. Pres. Ahmadenijad, believes Israel,"Satan" & America," Great Satan" must be destroyed, and he is willing to kill every Iranian to achieve it. No matter what comprise is made, when it comes to Israel and America, for Muslim extremists, only then will their savior or "mahkdi" come. Attempts to placate him are misguided at best.
---Michele on 3/17/10

The recent flareup between America and Israel may have great significance. Israel did not insult America it would be impossible for me to insult you by building a building on property that belongs to me.

America is on her knees, had in hand catering to the oil states in the Middle East. Our best approach would be one of strength. Example, tell the family that is running Saudi Arabia and if they do not sell us oil at the price we want we will be forced to sell military equipment to the elements in their country had wish to over throw them. If we do that we have but to Standby action will soon take place.
---mima on 3/17/10


Palestinians speak Arabic, just like all other Arabs.

Before Israel was declared a separate nation in 1948, the whole area it occupies (including Palestine) were parts of Jordan. The Palestinians were just Jordanian Arabs who happened to live in that small western part of Jordan. When Israel gained its indepedendance in 1948, they were given a choice to become citizens, but refused, and preferred to become refugees instead (but none of their Arab brothers in the surrounding countries wanted them).
---StrongAxe on 3/17/10

Just curious
Who are palestinians and where did they come from? Did they not migrate from surrounding arab countries? Do they speak palestinian?
If God gave Abraham a a land for His people when did he take it back?
---michael_e on 3/16/10

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Donna66, thanks for your thoughts. I'll have to think about that truism about politics not being concerned for individuals.

I am thinking of the arab taxi driver who could not leave the West Bank. He had to make his living in the West Bank. I'll have to investigate a bit to understand what Israel is doing in that they appear to be isolating the West Bank, and at the same time not letting the West Bank rule themselves. It reminds me of what America did making Indian reservations.

I do understand that many in the West Bank and Gaza want to destroy Israel, and Israel needs to protect themselves which in turn causes Israel to create check points.
---Rod4Him on 3/15/10

Of course, on an individual basis, both Palestinians and Jews can be gracious, kind people (depite what they may say about each other) But individuals aren't considered where international politics is's their leaders.
---Donna66 on 3/14/10

Donna66, I've been to Israel twice, spending 3 weeks there about 6 months ago. Also, I plan to go back and study archaeology for 9 months to a year.

While there I spent a little time in the west bank and met the family of an Arab taxi cab driver. They were extremely gracious offering coffee and socialized. I suppose part of that experience helped me see the Palestinians as people.

I concur that areas distinctly maintained by Israel are generally in better condition than area's predominately Arab.

The Western Wall Area is very clean and neat. The temple mount isn't as well taken care of.

Politically Israel needs support, but there are no easy answers.
---Rod4Him on 3/14/10

Christians can cite numerous Biblical injunctions to support Israel. I think, even without those, we have reason enough to stand with them.

They are the only Democracy in the area and a tiny country at that. They are surrounded by nations that don't express any desire to compromise, but instead want to "wipe them off the map".

And if you visit there, you will be struck by the feeling of dependence they have toward the U.S. The Palestinians have lots of room to settle and grow. The main sticking point is that Jerusalem is the site of the Dome of the Rock, one of their main holy places. It is the holy place of the Jews. Neither side wants to give up any of Jerusalem.
---Donna66 on 3/14/10

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StrongAxe, I think at the end of the day we are on the same page.

I'd never heard of the Sultan taxing the trees. That's interesting. It made me think about raising taxes on businesses expecting them to grow, but that is another topic.

You are absolutely right that Israel is doing wonders to the land, planting trees being one of many policies. However, does that justify taking the land? We are back to the illustration of me taking your land because I can take better care of it, which is one reason why I said I wish Israel could control all the land.

I am pointing out the reasons for the conflict, seeking empathy instead of despise for the Palestinians, not meaning to not have empathy for the Jews.
---Rod4Him on 3/12/10


If you were living in a tent, and I came to your lot, said "I'm going to build a house here, you can stay here", I might be resentful, but I'd be a fool to walk away and whine about being homeless when offered a roof over my head.

Palestine has been a desert for centuries - ever since a Turkish sultan decided to tax trees (so people cut them down because they could not afford them). It's only been recovering since the Israelis have been planting the desert. The Palestinians didn't do it. The Jordanians and Lebanese aren't doing it either.

Besides, when it comes to "we were here first", the Palestinians were there for hundreds of years, but the Jews were there for thousands. Who has priority?
---StrongAxe on 3/12/10

This river named "the river of Egypt" that I wrote about is to the east of the Nile. It is a very short river emptying into the Mediterranean Sea. But regardless of size and its insignificance and of not being on any but the best maps it does exist and forms the boundary of the land given Israel.
---mima on 3/12/10

StrongAxe, I agree, but how would you like it if I came to your house and said, I am taking over this residence. You can join me if you like, but I am in control.

And if you don't like it, tough, if you feel disinfranchised, it's your fault.

It's also true that the Arabs could have taken some inititive to incorporate before the Jews did, but they didn't. The Arabs by culture were more nomadic like American Indians.

I like both peoples. I don't see a great solution there. I wish they all could become more democratic and get along. BTW, the Jews are quite racist in their views, maybe for survival reasons.
---Rod4Him on 3/12/10

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In 1948, when Israel became independent, they gave the Arab residents the option to become Israeli citizens. However, most of them rejected this offer. Unfortunately, none of their "bretheren" in surrounding Arab countries wanted anything to do with them either, which is why we have had Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon, etc.

If they're disenfranchised, it's by their own choices.
---StrongAxe on 3/12/10

Right, Sag, //Still, Israel doesn't seem to understand that it made some sinful decisions by turning away from God's command in Exodus 23:32 and trying to become "friends" with it's sworn "enemies".//

And many in the world don't understand that while Israel was gone somebody else, Arabs, came and settled in the land.

Those that believe Israel should have all the land, what do they propose to do with all the Palestinians/Arabs who have been there for generations. Genocide, deportation to where, no one wants them. ummm...problem as I see it. And Israel caused it 3,000 years ago.
---Rod4Him on 3/12/10

Have not all the political parties attempted to divide Israel. Also look what the Mod stated.
---Alan on 3/12/10

Augie wrote"This was the land "from the Nile river to the Euphrates river". Permit me to quote the verse here, Genesis 15:18,
"In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates."
There really is a river named the river of Egypt.(Once spent a great deal of study to be certain of this) so the Nile river is not a boundary in this matter.
---mima on 3/11/10

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Things where I believe Israel blew it:

It made peace treaties when God told them NOT. Exodus 23:32

The peace treaty with Egypt. Now, weapons are coming from Egypt for Hamas.

Giving the Gaza Strip land to Hamas. Now, Israel is bombared by rockets and bombs coming from the Gaza Strip.

Still, Israel doesn't seem to understand that it made some sinful decisions by turning away from God's command in Exodus 23:32 and trying to become "friends" with it's sworn "enemies".

God is more than willing to "forgive" any one of us. If only we will "repent" and turn back to God.

Israel has a lot of work to do in that area. Repent and turn back to God.
---Sag on 3/11/10


Any plan to divide Israel is going against God's plans and sinful.

God gave Abraham's descendants the Promised Land through his son Isaac. This was the land "from the Nile river to the Euphrates river". Abraham's other son, Ishmael, was given a great nation that chose to branch off on it's own.

Today, the people of Israel occupy only a small part of the Promised Land that God give to them. Ishmael's descendants have become the Arab nations and many have turned to Islam. Quite contrary to what God wants for anyone.

There is the never-ending battle between "Isaac" and "Ishmael" over land. Still, what God gave to "Isaac" is just that. To divide Israel is un-Biblical.
---Augie on 3/11/10


I'm assuming that the Israeli people are the ones called Zionists. God's plan for Israel's people has always been for them to worship HIM.

I'm not sure about the hearts of Palestinian Christians. If they are Christians, then why all the fighting and killing? All I can say is that IF they are NOT living for God, and worship only Him, they are prone to being displaced from the Promised Land. The same will happen someday to the other folks who are living in the Promised Land, but DON'T worship God.

If there are crimes, unfair dealings, etc. I believe that God will sort all of that out when the time comes for that. Only God knows the true hearts of the people and HE has the final say on everything.
---Augi on 3/11/10

As much as I would like Israel to control all their presently controlled land, it is a political problem not a Biblical problem. If God wants Israel to possess all the Biblical land, then God will do it. He doesn't need Biden's help.

The problem is that Arabs, 500,000 in the early 1900's, have lived in the land for hundreds of years. Only 25,000 Jews lived in the land in the early 1900's.

A portion of the land was given to Israel in 1948. What are all the Arabs whose parents and grandparents who lived there going to do.

Maybe the US ought to give the Native Americans their land back.

See the problem with no easy answer?
---Rod4Him on 3/11/10

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The Israelis consider Biden, former president Bush and even more so Clinton friends of Israel. All favor some type of Independent state for the Palestinians so your assumption is in err.

Obama is a different story and relations now are as cool and stressful as they were under Daddy Bush.
Remember the push for two states is because Isaac and Ishmael can not co-exist. It is wrong to blame the United States for this biblical prophecy being played out before the generations.
God's desire is for Isreal to acknowledge his son.
There is no such thing as Christian politics because politics is not Christian.
Start over.
---larry on 3/11/10

Apparently, a lot of people here are totally unaware of how the Zionist settlers stole land and property--even destroying the homes--of the native Palestinian Christians.

Did you know about that, mima?
---Cluny on 3/11/10

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