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Who Was The Creator

Who was the Creator? Was it Jesus or merely random chance?

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 ---jerry6593 on 6/18/10
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1st cliff, the world's "accepted standard weight" for a male, is Not God's standard weight for a male which himself makes diverse weights and diverse measurements according to "his standard". And I have seen Jesus firsthand, and I will truly tell you that he is six foot tall and weighs more like 200 lbs.
---Eloy on 6/24/10

David I have little problem with the use of Jehovah in Romans 14:7-9

What I made clear is the Watchtower's inconsistency. Other translations consistently use 'Lord' for the 4 instances where the Greek root word 'Kyrios' appears in these verses. The JW version uses 'Jehovah' for the first 3 then inconsistently uses 'Lord', when it applies to Jesus.

This inconsistency occurs because JW idealogy forces them not to use the same correct word throughout the verses (including when it applies to Jesus), as to do so they would have to be consistent and call Jesus Jehovah! No can doooooo!
---Warwick on 6/23/10

The Word was spoken to create.
The Worlds are framed-by the Word.
These Words became flesh.
Every Word God spoke-is Him.
If you believe is Word-you believe Him.
If you believe In His Word-you believe In Him.
His Word became flesh

For [I]have not spoken of Myself,but the Father Which sent Me,[he]gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

How? because Christ is the Word of God in Flesh.
Who's mouth?-Gods'.
What comes out of His mouth-His Word.
---char on 6/23/10

Fay, no the Bible says at 1 John 5:7, "For there are three witness bearers."

But because trinitarians have a hard time finding any scriptures to support their corrupt apostate trinity, they have to insert words and in effect, re-write God's Word to make their trinity doctrine fit. (Rev.22:18)

The trinitarian insertion at 1 John 5:7 reads something like, "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." This crept into 2 or 3 late Greek codices, and then into the printed Greek text.

Trinitarians are forced to insert spurious verses into the Bible because they can't find real ones to support their pagan Greek Neo-Platonist philosophies.
---David8318 on 6/23/10

Eloy, 165lbs is the accepted standard weight of a male adult. (for determining aircraft load) How do you know what He weighed??
Warwick, You said Jesus was fully God,God is immortal!yes-no?
At death you believe that people don't really die , they go somewhere -heaven or the fire! (the cemetery is just where they dump the bodies,while the real person is still alive)
Same belief as Muslims,Hindus,Catholics,LDS,and aboriginals! much originating from Babylonian mythology!
---1st_cliff on 6/23/10

David evening to evening is a 24hr day. Consider: evening is the close of the light part of a 24hr day. Morning the close of the dark part of a 24hr day. Put them together and voila you have a 24hr day. As it has always been!

In Exodus 20:8-11 God uses exactly the same terms for the days within which He created as for the days they were to live.

Why were they to work 6days and rest the 7th? "For (because) in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth..."

God is eternal, and that is the obvious point. When He writes of days in Genesis 1, Exodus etc He is talking in our terms as the Bible was written to inform us. He does not live in days of any length. To apply time to a timeless God is nonsensical.
---Warwick on 6/23/10

God spoke & ___ was created. And we were made in his image.

It's ok if you don't believe. You have to answer for yourself on judgment day. And salvation is much MORE important. Notice the MORE, which means that healing is also important. In John 5 Jesus chose one man because he could see his faith was ripe & ready. Don't forget Matt 13:58. Remember you all must work out your own salvation WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING. We get what we speak. I love you all anyway. It doesn't matter if you think I'm crazy. I really don't care. When the time is right the Holy Spirit will bring the truth to you on wings. GOD BLESS EVERYONE!!!
---fay on 6/23/10

Char, that was a great answer you gave. God used His Word to execute creation. Wonderful, I finally heard someone put it right on. Oh the revelation of God is so wonderful. Since the Word became flesh and dwelled among us. Just the other day I was reading and listening to a tape it was so clear to me something that I already knew from times past. The Word creates, God spoke and His Word created. His Son Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
---Mark_V. on 6/23/10

God spoke out the End from the beginning.
By faith we believe the truth spoken-manifested and completed.
Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for,the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN.
Without faith it is impossible to please Him.
Through Faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

We believe IN HIS Word-Now.
The Word of God-gone forth out of HIS mouth-Then-is confirmed only by Him-Holy Spirit-with us-Now.
God alone is Glorified.

Thy Kingdom come-Thy will be done-on earth as it is in Heaven.
By faith we believe unto Salvation through His Word-Christ-Taught and confirmed by His Spirit-a promise-believed.
Is 9:6
---char on 6/23/10

Warwick, you don't have to be contradicted because you contradict yourself.

Despite what you believe, evening to morning is not a 24 hour period. Your logic is bizarre to say the least. The Genesis account does not say 'there came to be evening and there came to be evening a 6th day'. You pervert what God's Word says in Genesis.

The expression- 'there came to be evening and morning', God was not discussing how long that day was. Neither was he discussing the length of a day at Exodus 20. The Israelites already knew how long their day was. God instructs them at Ex.20 how to structure their working week. 'Work 6, rest on the 7th'.

God has his own count of time. God is eternal and outside mans count of time (Moses at Ps.90:4).
---David8318 on 6/23/10

As Creator-He alone Begins and Finishes ALL things.
He alone speaks the End from the Beginning.He alone can sware by His Word-His truth.
He alone is Redeemer.

The enemy attempts to change this message, but, God alone has conquers'-death.He alone is life.

His Word-dual message of One story.
Thy Kingdom come-Thy will be done-on earth as it is in Heaven.
-Divison to completeness-Love story of forgiveness-
Christ is the same yesterday-today and tomorrow. God tells the story of yesterday-today and tomorrow-at once.
Stay focused-God is our Savior-through His Word-Christ-by His Spirit of Truth-with us now-Holy Spirit.
Is 9-For unto us a Child is born-
Heb2-...all things in subjection under His feet..
---char on 6/23/10

Jesus is not the Creator. Jesus is a created being. Even the verse Warwick quote's Col.1:16 say's 'all [other] things have been created through him...'- not BY him.

'Prototokos' (firstborn, at Col.1:15) and 'arkhe' (Beginning, at Rev.3:14) Greek words which also occur in the Greek Septuagint at Genesis 49:3: 'Ruben, thou art my first-born [prototokos], thou my strength, and the first [arkhe, 'beginning'] of my children.'

Again, a none Neo-Platonic conclusion would be that the Son of God, Jesus, is the firstborn of all creation in the sense of being the first of Jehovah God's creatures. If you are influenced by pagan Greek philosophy, then you will believe Jesus is not created and is Almighty God.
---David8318 on 6/23/10

1st cliff, your information is untrue. Jesus was not 165 lbs. And Jesus is immortal, for Jesus says, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. I am the bread of Life. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any one eat of this bread, that one will live for ever. Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood partakes of eternal life, and I will raise that one up at the last day. I am the Alpha and the Omega, Beginning and Ultimate, which from being, and which to being, and which coming, The Almighty." "All you men of Galilee, why stand you all gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you all have seen him go into heaven."
---Eloy on 6/23/10

God is creator-He used His Words in
comand and His Spirt to excecute His commands.

In the Beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God. The same was in the beginning wit God.
All things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
---char on 6/23/10

So have Jehovah Witnesses left out 1John 5:7?
---fay on 6/23/10

Unlike Warwick, Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to pervert the Word of God with the anti-Christ trinity teaching.

The 'Kingdom Interlinear' to which Warwick refers contains the 'New Testament in the Original Greek' by Westcott and Hort. Jehovah's Witnesses thus do not "go against its own Greek Interlinnear" as Warwick believes.

Other translators who use God's name 'Jehovah' at Romans 14:7-9 are:

- Christian Greek Scriptures by Elias Hunter, Nuremburg 1599.
- Christians Greek Scriptures, Heb., by William Robertson, London 1661
- The New Testament... In Hebrew and English, by Richard Caddick, Vol I-III, containing Matthew to 1 Corinthians, London, 1798-1805.

These are but a few.
---David8318 on 6/23/10

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It was you who brought up the idea that "I and the Father are one", simply means they are of one purpose.

If Jesus is one with the Father, in the same sense as he prayed we believers would be, one in purpose as you claim, can I therefore say "Whatever the Father does I (Warwick) also do in like manner" John 5:19. Or "He that does not honour me, (Warwick), does not honour the Father who sent me" John 5:23?

Can I?
---Warwick on 6/23/10

Cliff sometimes I think you have totally lost the plot.

"Why? Almighty God is and always will be "immortal" Therefore He could not be killed."

This is what I have told you but now you pose it as something which disagrees with what I have said??

"But then ,of course fundamentalists don't believe anyone actually dies!"

Where do you dredge up this nonsense? Of course we die, have a look at a cemetry.

Any who trust God's word know that Jesus died and rose again physically. Anyone who denies that is not, by definition, a Christian. I am surprized you believe this!

What denomination do you attend?
---Warwick on 6/23/10

Eloy: Amen! Well said indeed.

1st Cliff: "Almighty God is and always will be "immortal" Therefore He could not be killed."

Joh 10:17,18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

Incidentally, I AM a Fundamentalist and I do not believe that dead people continue to live as spooks - they sleep in the grave until the resurrection at Jesus' 2nd coming.
---jerry6593 on 6/23/10

John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Who Resurrected the Christ? Maybe the Word of God?
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Who does Jesus say is good?
---micha9344 on 6/22/10

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Warwick, A-men. "And here, a woman in the city who was a sinner, took an alabaster of oinment, and standing beside the feet of Jesus after weeping, began to wet the feet of him indeed of tears, and indeed of the hairs of her head wiping and kissing the feet of him, and anointing of the ointment. And he said to her, Your sins are forgiven. And the reclined company began to say in themselves, Who stands this, who even forgives sins?" And realizing who Jesus is, I too fell down upon my knees and I cried out to him, Have mercy on me Lord, Save me Jesus, and forgive me of all my sins. I cried to Yhwh with my voice, and he heard me. He said to me: "Your sins are forgiven." Lk.7:36-50.
---Eloy on 6/22/10

Warwick/Eloy, Very emotional and passionate albeit inaccurate!
Why? Almighty God is and always will be "immortal" Therefore He could not be killed.
But then ,of course fundamentalists don't believe anyone actually dies! Like Jesus went off somewhere when He pretended to be dead. Right?
If you think 165lbs of bones and flesh bought your salvation you're sadly mistaken, Jesus actually gave up his life and were it not for God resurrecting Him he would still be dead!
If you don't believe that- join the Muslims and Hindus!
---1st_cliff; on 6/22/10

Eloy your post of 22/06 was simple and brilliant. I believe it is the best post you have ever done. I could see Him, and and feel His presence, and be touched by Him through your words.

Well done brother!

The compelling truth of what you penned moved me, and comforted me-that He loves us so much that He took upon flesh that He may be like us and physically with us, and to save us. Great news in a darkening world.

And this is who we will see in heaven, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Alpha and the Omega the eternal God who was, and is, and forever will be.
---Warwick on 6/22/10

MarkV, I pray for 1st Cliff and all those whom believe like he does, becasue it is common for the natural mind to denigrate the full deity of Christ. For they do not believe that God would become a man, and so they project Christ as not The Almighty God, but instead they depict him as either a common mortal man, or else diminish his Godhood as less than 100% Almighty. But those of us whom know that Christ is God in the flesh, and has proven so, and whom has created the heavens and the earth and all things for his pleasure, will continue to bear witness to this Truth.
---Eloy on 6/22/10

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Cliff, It makes no sense that his listeners would want to kill Him if He was only saying (as you claim) He is one in purpose with God! Did they not believe they were also one in purpose with God?

Jesus' various discourses with His opponents though passionate provided Him with plenty of time to correct their mistaken beliefs. But He didn't because they were correct. He was saying He is God.

If Jesus is one with the Father, in the same sense as he prayed we believers would be, can I therefore say "Whatever the Father does I (Warwick) also do in like manner" John 5:19. Or "He that does not honour me, (Warwick), does not honour the Father who sent me" John 5:23?

Can I?
---Warwick on 6/22/10

Cliff, what I say does not matter. What God says matters. His word says Jesus is His one and only Son, therefore of the one substance and equal with Him. Jesus is the Creator of everything ever created. He cannot therefore be a created being as you say.

The very Philippians Scripture you quote shows that it was Jesus though being in very nature God, who humbled Himself and for His time on earth became a servant. He willingly did this, becoming obedient to death, so that all who believe in Him would gain eternal life. As I quoted before, Jesus said "I give them eternal life they shall never perish." John 10:28

As He is the Creator and the Redeemer the one who forgives all sin and grants eternal life He is God.
---Warwick on 6/22/10

Other than a little semantics, I agree with Eloy's posts as well..
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
---micha9344 on 6/22/10

Eloy, four great post you put out. I doubt that 1 Cliff will listen to what you have to say or even believe it, but many who read might learn something today by what you have posted.
---Mark_V. on 6/22/10

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"The trinity" is "The Triune God". God the Father bore man the Son whom bore the Holy Spirit. This belief is essential because: if you deny Jesus is God, then you deny his Almighty Godhood: and if you deny that God became a human Son, then you deny a Redeemer who relates to humans: and if you deny that God is the Holy Ghost, then you deny his Omnipresence and that he is holy. There are many verses professing that this gospel is salvation: "for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost: therefore also that holy thing which will be born of you will be called the Son from God. For to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord." Mt.1:20+ Lk.1:35+ 2:11.
---Eloy on 6/22/10

1st cliff, The Father is Omnipresent filling heaven and earth, and his Spirit is able to answer billions of individual prayers at once. And the Father chose to put on flesh and be made like man in order to redeem man that he has made. And when he did this he now has become an intimate part of his own creation, which is much like what Adam said of his wife, "This indeed is flesh of my flesh, and bone of my bones", for the Lord God himself has put on flesh likened to us in order for us to be able to relate to him as one of us. Now we can see and touch and feel and know God not as some thing like detached energy or atmosphere or ethereal force without a body, but we know he has a body, namely, Emmanuel, Jesus Christ is God with us.
---Eloy on 6/22/10

cliff, your denial of the trinity declared by God in both testaments does not negate the fact that the triune God is proven to be real. God says: "Hearken to me, O Jacob and Israel, my called: I he, I the first and I the last. Come you all near to me, hear you all this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there I: and now the Lord Yhwh, and his Spirit, has sent me. Go you all therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Is.48:12,16+ Mt.28:19.
---Eloy on 6/22/10

Warwick , You say "He was one substance and equal to the Father" Paul said in Phil.2.6 "Who being in the very nature of God did not consider EQALITY with God ,something to be grasped" You, being a Paulite, which is correct?
Why would Jesus correct them ,they were a mob and you can't reason with a mob!
Jesus prayed that they would be one but that didn't make them one, even Peter denied Him (after the prayer).
(Warwick) cannot be one with Him while preaching pagan doctrine!

One scripture indicating a "triune" God in the OT. please! 4,000 years!
---1st_cliff on 6/22/10

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Only GOD can forgive sins. JESUS forgave sin.

Trinity is a man made word to try to explain what GOD is like when we cannot truly comprehend GOD. I accept by faith what the Bible so plainly teaches.

We are sons and daughters of GOD by creation and adoption. JESUS is son by being the same.
---Samuel on 6/22/10

Eloy, No, 'tis you who is the polytheist,believing in God the Father (1) God the Son (2) and God the Holy Spirit(3)
(A statement not found in scripture!) Count them 1,2,3 three Gods now that's polytheism
I believe Deut.6.3 "I am one God"
**I am set down WITH the Father of me**
Do you understand the English conjunction "with?" it indicates more than "one"! what's your point?
Same "with" at Jn.1.
---1st_cliff on 6/22/10

Cliff, Jesus favourite designation of himself, to imply both his messianic mission and his humanity, was Son of Man

Having said "I give them Eternal life" John 10:28 He said "I am God's Son." He is claiming to be of one substance with and equal to the Father- fully Man and fully God. Again they tried to seize Him! They knew exactly what He was claiming. Jesus also said "before Abraham was I am," and that the Father glorifies Him. They knew Jesus was calling Himself the eternal "I am " and wanted to kill Him for blasphemy. But you say eye-witnes experts in the law got it wrong!
---Warwick on 6/22/10

Cliff, the Greek 'hen' (one) does not have to mean more than unity of purpose. However in John 10:30 it is clear from His listeners reaction Jesus was saying much more than unity of purpose. Why threaten to kill Him for saying He was in unity of purpose with the Father? Weren't they also in unity of purpose with the Father?

If they misunderstood why didn't He correct them immediately?

If Jesus is one with the Father, in the same sense as he prayed we believers would be, can I therefore say "Whatever the Father does I (Warwick) also do in like manner" John 5:19. Or "He that does not honour me, (Warwick), does not honour the Father who sent me" John 5:23
---Warwick on 6/22/10

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Warwick: On the subject of "holier than thou", I find it interesting that the Bible uses the term only once, and not to describe self-righteous church-goers, but rather pagan eaters of unclean meat, etc.

Isa 65:3-5 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face, that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick, Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels, Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me, for I am HOLIER THAN THOU. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
---jerry6593 on 6/22/10

Jerry, I am no longer shocked/puzzled or surprized what 'Christians' believe. What intrigues me is how passionate some are to believe and promote anything, absolutely anything, other than what the Bible says.

It also intrigues me that they will quote from and insist that part A of Scripture is completely Kosher while part B is twaddle.

My favourite is one of those writing here who said we can't trust what Genesis 1 says because there weren't any human witnesses to authenticate it! Beezaar!
---Warwick on 6/22/10

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
--So, Jesus was fully human.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God,
--But, not fully God? a different god? or part God?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Psalms 50:1 The mighty God, [even] the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Jesus:God in the flesh or my interpretation skills are rusty.
---micha9344 on 6/21/10

1st cliff, you are believing in polytheism, which is believing in multiple gods. Jesus says: "The person that has seen me has seen The Father. The person that sees me sees him that sent me. I am from above, I am not of this world: if you all believe not that I AM, you all will die in your sins. You all call me The Lord, indeed you all say well, for I am. I am the Alpha and the Omega, Beginning and Ultimate, which from being, and which to being, and which coming, The Almighty. To the person who overcomes will I grant to sit with me on my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with Father of me on his throne." Jn.14:9+ 12:45+ 8:23,24+ 13:13+ Rev.1:8+ Rev.3:21.
---Eloy on 6/21/10

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Cluny: It's you who is on the "milk" diet

Jesus asked His disciples straight out " who do you say I am?"

Golden opportunity for one of them to say "You are God" but NO not one.

"You are the Christ, Son of the living God"
Seems they understood but not you!
Difficult statement ???
They said "Son" not God Himself!!
What part of that simple statement do you not comprehend???
No fancy dancing or psychobabble straight forward "SON"!
---1st_cliff on 6/21/10

Warwick, When Jesus said "I and the Father are one" they assumed (like you) that he meant one person ,so they attacked Him.
What He really meant is fully explained in His prayer at Jn. 17 "That they, Father, may be one as we are one" What??? that they all may be one person???? I think you know better than that!
God's purpose for man is found in Gen.1 "Be fruitful,multiply and fill the earth" (in an Edenic paradise) He has not scrapped that mandate,His word does not return to Him "void"! Key-Isa.45.18.
---1st_cliff on 6/20/10

Warwick: It does indeed seem strange to me that someone who Calls himself "Christian" would not believe that Christ was indeed the Jehovah God of the Bible. That is tantamount to admission that they follow a mere man and not God. I guess they believe that Jesus was just a "good guy" (albeit somewhat deluded), and maybe even a prophet - but nothing more. There are many others that believe the very same thing about Jesus. They are called MUSLIMS!
---jerry6593 on 6/21/10

\\Warwick, Cluny mentioned "3 persons"
Are they headless??
Where's their seat of intelligence??
So they don't have a "fleshy body " they do have some sort of "containment" with a central seat of intellect..NO? Or ,as Cluny said they have no "brains"
What is "the Godhead"..just an expression?
It gets curiouser and curiouser!
---1st_cliff on 6/19/10\\

As I said on another blog, it's pointless to discuss what St. Paul called "strong meat" before people who don't even believe that Jesus is God Incarnate.
---Cluny on 6/21/10

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Cliff my description of you, as being "Antagonistic towards God" was not meant as a put down, but simply as a description of your attitude towards God's word.

Indeed "Omniscient,Omnipresent and Omnipotent' are not words found in Scripture but are you suggesting that these words are not accurate descriptions of God?

With all my faults I do not believe anyone who knows me would consider me 'Holier than thou.' Holier than thou people see me as a little too rough around the edges to be a Christian.

What do you see as "God's intentions (purpose) for man!"
---Warwick on 6/20/10

ist cliff, "I God, declaring the end from the beginning. Thus says Yhwh, The heaven my throne, and the earth my footstool: where the house that you all build up to me? and where the place of my rest? For all those has mine hand made. O Yhwh, you know my downsitting and mine uprising, you understand my thoughts afar off. To where could I go from your Spirit? or to where could I flee from your presence? If I ascend up into heaven, you there: if I make my bed in hell, note you. All things naked and opened to the eyes of him with whom we have to do. He hangs the earth upon nothing. I Yhwh who makes all: that stretches out the heavens all alone, that speads abroad the earth by myself. I am The Almighty, says the Lord."
---Eloy on 6/20/10

Amen-In agreement.
joseph 6/18/10.

In the beginning was the WORD...
and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God.

God ,Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,Hath in thses laslt days spoken utno us by [his]Son,Shom He hath appointed Heir of all thins by Whom also He made the worlds...
---char on 6/20/10

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 2:10a For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things...
Colossians 1:16a,c,17 For by him were all things created...all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
---micha9344 on 6/20/10

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Warwick,**Antagonistic towards God** is a deliberate "put-down" intended to prejudice anyone from thinking logically!
Omniscient,Omnipresent and Omnipotent 3 words not found in scripture, much like Homoousios (one substance-from 325 CE) all designed to
make it sound like you "know something"
Holier than thou "I know everything you know nothing" arrogance typical of Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' day!
So maybe I'm a stupid construction worker, but you don't need a PhD or DD to comprehend God's intentions (purpose) for man!
---1stcliff on 6/20/10

Cliff you are correct, Jesus lived a perfect life as judged by the law. But He also forgave sins which only God can do. Mark 2:7 the teachers of the law said "Who can forgive sin but God alone."

In John 10:28-33 Jesus says "I give them eternal life.." and "I and the Father are one" and again they picked up stones to stone Him saying they wanted to stone Him "because you a mere man claim to be God." If as some cultic people say Jesus was only saying -I and the Father are one in purpose- why would they want to stone Him?

No He is standing before them claiming to be God, the Creator, Redeemer and forgiver of sin. He had to be man to die but had to be God to forgive-fully man and fully God.
---Warwick on 6/20/10

Warwick, You are fundamentally wrong in your statement that "Jesus had to be God to save his sinful creatures"
He needed "only" to be a perfect human (equivalent of Adam) to pay the price of Adamic sin!
If you don't understand this basic principle then it's you who is *willingly ignorant*!
---1st_cliff on 6/20/10

Cliff your innability to understand Scripture stems from your antagonism towards God. Sadly you are willingly ignorant.

You imagine that the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator God of eternity must have a head to be a person, with intelligence!

God is Spirit (John 4:24) and is not man (Numbers 23:19).

As recorded in Luke 22:70 Jesus called Himself the Son of Man-being fully human,of one substance with man. He had to be to die. And confirmed He was also the Son of God-as to His Spirit being fully God,of one substance with God-He had to be to save His sinful creatures.

Therefore fully God and fully man.
---Warwick on 6/20/10

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David indeed as to the OT only God is creator-Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 37:16. But in the NT Jesus is the Creator "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things were created by him and for him." Colossians 1:16. John 1:1-3 also says he is Creator of everything created. Therefore not an angel, a created being, as you would say.

If you are correct then the NT contradicts the OT. But you are wrong
because in Jesus God was pleased to have all his fullness (God is Spirit as you concur) dwell in him-Colossians 2:9. Fully man in whom God dwelt fully. Our Creator and Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ.
---Warwick on 6/20/10

David as has been explained many times, and never contradicted, God defined one day in Genesis 1:3-5-"And there was evening..."-evening being the ending of an ordinary day-the daylight has faded and gone. "And there was morning", morning being the ending of the night-darkness disappears and a new day begins. God's evening to evening day is our evening to evening 24hr day.

In Exodus 20:8-11 God confirms He created in 6 of these ordinary 24hr days, resting the seventh 24hr day so man would work 6 24hr days and rest the seventh 24hr day. If God's seventh day is unending so is the Sabbath and the Jews have never worked since!
---Warwick on 6/20/10

David the Watchtower translators have perverted the word of God in the hope of showing Jesus is not God.

For example-Romans 14:7-9 where 'Kyrios' the Greek root word occurs 4 times. In the JW New World Translation it is 3 times translated as 'Jehovah' but in verse 9 referring to Jesus it is translated 'Lord.' This in incorrect and deceitful. The Watchtower (JW's controlling body)has created a logical non sequitur. The NWT translation would have us believe 2 different people are being spoken of. However the JW Greek Interlinnear shows the same person is being spoken about.

Why does the Watchtower go against its own Greek Interlinnear? Because to translate honestly and consistently would show Jesus is God.
---Warwick on 6/20/10

David: While you are of course entitled to your opinions, it is difficult to see how someone who calls himself "Christian" does not believe that Jesus is God. No wonder you don't believe in the FUNDAMENTALS of the Bible.
---jerry6593 on 6/20/10

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Warwick, Cluny mentioned "3 persons"
Are they headless??
Where's their seat of intelligence??
So they don't have a "fleshy body " they do have some sort of "containment" with a central seat of intellect..NO? Or ,as Cluny said they have no "brains"
What is "the Godhead"..just an expression?
It gets curiouser and curiouser!
---1st_cliff on 6/19/10

David ,Who then did Paul speak of when he spoke of the "creator son"?
---earl on 6/19/10

Isa.9 v 6 Is Jesus Christ, John 10 v's 30 & 38 Is Jesus Christ, John 14 v's 8 - 9 Is Jesus Christ, John 20 v's 27 - 28 Is Jesus Christ, 1st.Tim.3 v 16 Is Jesus Christ, Rev.22 v 13 Jesus said I Am Alpha (that makes Jesus Christ God in the beginning), Jesus said I Am the Omega (that makes Jesus Christ God in the ending).
---Lawrence on 6/19/10

Jesus is not the creator but as John said "is the son of God".- John 1:34.

Hebrews 4:15, "(Jesus) was in all points tempted like as we are..."

James 1:13, "God cannot be tempted".

Thus Jesus is not God.

Jesus also said, "God is a spirit" at John 4:24. Jesus made that statement of truth when he had become manifest in the flesh. God has never become flesh, only his son.

Trinitarians teach what is antichrist because they teach 'Jesus is fully God' and thus 'a spirit', which according to John is the teaching of the antichrist. 1 Jo.4:2,3.

Trinitarianism ('Jesus is God' mythology) is antichrist.
---David8318 on 6/19/10

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What is more distressing are fundamentalists who erroneously teach that God's 7th day of rest (from creative activity) was 24 hours long and has thus ended and therefore fail to realise the true understanding of what Paul meant when he encouraged Christians to 'enter God's rest' at Hebrews 4:9,10.

Paul believed God's 7th day was still ongoing, which is why he encouraged Christians to 'enter' God's rest period.

Moses didn't believe God to be bound by 24 hour days (Ps.90:4), neither did Peter (2 Pe.3:8).

Fundamentalists forget that Jesus is the Christ. Almighty God Jehovah is the Creator. 'El Shaddai' cannot also be 'Messiah'. You cannot be a Christian and a trinitarian- they are a contradiction in terms.
---David8318 on 6/19/10

Cliff where did Cluny mention three heads?

Do you imagine God the Father who is not man but Spirit, cannot be a person as He has no body?
---Warwick on 6/19/10

While it is somewhat disappointing to find that there are Christians who don't know that Jesus was the Creator, it is much more distressing to realize that some Christians disbelieve the clear account of the six-day Creation of the Bible in order to provide sufficient time for creation by random chance (as if enough time would make the impossible possible). These are they that argue against literal 24-hour days, and without realizing it, have made Random Chance their creator, and Charles Darwin his prophet.
---jerry6593 on 6/19/10

Yes Catherine I share your incredulity. But I think the question, on the surface insulting, stupid and not worthy of a single keystroke, is meant to be provocative.
There are a few pagans and atheists on this board who like to roil in such foolishness and brother Jerry may wish to engage them.
After all, you can only be light where there ain't none.
God bless em.
---larry on 6/18/10

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Did anyone mention that "the creator son" was the creator.
Like wise in the Psalms someone stating ,"thou sendest fourth your spirit,they are created and...
We exist in a universe, a co creation of the creator son-Jesus and the universe spirit.
---earl on 6/18/10

Cluny, Still think three heads are better than one ,huh, Cluny
---1st_cliff on 6/18/10

Of course---tommy3007 post on 6/18/10-ish correct.
---mima on 6/18/10

Col 1:15,16,17 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation, for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

In JESUS all things are created and he existed before them. So we have JESUS as the creator.
---Samuel on 6/18/10

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Please my Father in the name of JESUS, HELP ME! Jesus is the Creator. Let us make man in out own image. First indication, of the Trinity. Thank God, for Jesus and that my God talks, and He TALKS to me, good, real good. HALLELUJAH, that God is not deaf, dumb, mute, stupid. No.
---catherine on 6/18/10

God created everything, Christ is subordinate to the father and we have no scripture where Christ created anything with out raw materials.
---Friendly_Blogger on 6/18/10
You "might" want to try reading John 1:3, "All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made." The "him" in this verse is Jesus the Christ, the Son of God. We were not made by "random chance."
---tommy3007 on 6/18/10

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made: without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:10,14 He was in the world and the world was made by him,and the world knew him not. And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld his glory,the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,full of grace and truth. This makes it clear it was God's Word who created all things and that Word of God is God and he made it flesh and his Word became Jesus and through him all things were made.
---Darlene_1 on 6/18/10

"In beginning being the Word, and the Word being from God, and God being the Word. This One being in beginning from God. All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed in world, elevated up with glory." Jn.1:1-3,14,10+ I Tm.3:16.
---Eloy on 6/18/10

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One of the Psalms reads, "By the Word of YHVH were the heavens made, and all their hosts by the Spirit of His mouth."

In other words, it was an act of all three Persons of the Trinity.
---Cluny on 6/18/10

Friendly Blogger.......scripture says for by Him all things were created. All things were created by Him and for Him. He holds all things together.
---JIM on 6/18/10

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made [CREATED] by him [THE WORD], and without him [THE WORD] was not anything made [CREATED] that was made '[CREATED]..."
John 1:1-3
---Leon on 6/18/10

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