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Was Jesus God In The Flesh

Was Jesus God in the Flesh?

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 ---David on 7/13/10
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Are you aware that Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only ones that have (based on the Greek grammar of John 1:1c) translated that text differently than the familiar "The word was God"?

"And the Word was a god". Het Nieuwe Testament van onze Herr Jezus Christus, uit hit Grieksch vertaald dorr Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D. (Dutch: = The New Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ, translated from Greek by Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D.), 1694.

"And the Word was a god". The New Testament in an Improved Version, 1808.

"The Word was a God" The New Testament In Greek and English, Abner Kneeland, 1822.

---scott on 7/20/10

Micha- John 1:1 (2)

"And a god was the word", (interlinear translation): GOD (for the Father, Jehovah,) God (for the Son) in the regular English translation. The Emphatic Diaglott, Wilson, 1863,m 1864

"And a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word". Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible, Robert Young, c. 1885

"The Word was with THE DEITY, and THE WORD WAS DEISTIC", The Word was with THE GOD and THE WORD WAS GODLY Gospel of History, Totten, 1900.

---scott on 7/20/10

Sorry micha9344 but you are talking nonsense.

You state, "Logos is used as an identifier, as you previously denied". This is a ridiculous statement. Where do you get this from? Do you just make things up because you're bored or have nothing else to say or do?

Before you start accusing others of spreading falsehoods, I suggest you get your own facts straight, and instead of wallowing in self-righteous ignorance, you start learning truth.

How you link 2 Cor.10:4 with John 1:1 is again a reflection of your inaccurate emotional desire to make your false triune-trinity mystery fit.

'the Word was a god'. John 1:1.

'...(Paul) was a god'. Acts 28:6

Same grammar, same context. Consistent and accurate.
---David8318 on 7/20/10

GODHEAD: understand Scripture idioms. Adam and Eve were to be "ONE flesh" (Genesis 2:24)or a perfect inclusive unity. Thus it is with the Persons of the Godhead, whose name is Yahweh (YHWH). There are two called Yahweh and the third is the Spirit of Yahweh.
Genesis 3:22 Yahweh God said, "man is become as one of US".
Genesis 19:24 first YAHWEH on the earth, second YAHWEH in heaven.
Isaiah 44:6 two YAHWEHS speak as ONE,"I am the first... and last, besides me there is NO God". Rev.1:8,11,17, 22:12,13 Jesus is the first and last, Alpha and Omega, Almighty etc. - titles shared with the Father. Jesus shares His Father's name. Philippians 2:9-11, thus this name is declared above EVERY name!
---Ernest_1 on 7/20/10

Warwick you are in denial. You are also very confused. Your belief in the triune-trinity mystery has taken its toll on you.

Trinitarians differ in belief, one from another. But the bare facts are- your triune-trinity mystery is cultured from Babylonian triadic gods.

Satan stared false triadic worship in places such as Babylon. Plato gave Greeks the philosophical thesis to make 3 gods appears as 'one' with his teaching on 'metaphysics'- nature and substance, which you keep banging on about.

Constantine then began grafting Neo-Platonism into his false RCC, creating Christendom, with all its cults and sects worshiping the triune-trinity mystery.

Warwick, you do not promote Christ's teachings but that of Neo-Platonism.
---David8318 on 7/20/10

John 17:3 must never be taken out of the context of what the entire Bible teaches concerning the Deity of Jesus Christ. This text shows that life eternal comes from the true God, and Christ Jesus. However, before one jumps to too many conclusions concerning it, excluding the Son from the Godhead, look at Acts 4:12, "Neither is there salvation in any other..." Similar reasoning to that being used for John 17:3 would now exclude the Father from being a source of salvation, - just the Son exclusively! The Holy Spirit also works for our salvation. A tri-une Godhead is involved!
---Ernest_1 on 7/20/10

Doesnt the Bible divide us into three. Body, spirit and soul? Yet we are one being. 1Thes 5:23

We are made in Gods image and after His likeness.

Why is it so hard to believe that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all ONE?

Jesus Christ IS God.
---JackB on 7/19/10

In Greek grammar, the descriptive is first, the noun, then the verb as in Acts 28:6.
Logos is used as an identifier, as you previously denied, but is consistant with Greek, noun first, verb, then identifier as in 2Cor 10:4 'that Rock was Christ'.
I understand that this is hard for JW's to swallow, being that it starts their false foundations to crumble, yet if one looks, he will see it to be true.
I pray that JW's quit praying on people with lack of Greek grammar knowledge.
I have very little myself, but have learned enough to know when a wolf is trying to pull the 'wool' over peoples eyes.
It's basic Greek, but is Greek to many including me at one time.
Take your falseness elsewhere.
---micha9344 on 7/19/10

David, you keep on about "Polytheism..Neo-platonic philosophies...triadic gods."

As explained on numerous occasions we do not believe in three Gods/gods, or one God/god with three heads. As you know what we believe what you have written is lies.

God is not man, nor a creature, but a Spirit. He has no substance we limited creatures could recognize. He exists beyond our senses. That is why He became 'manifest'(appearing) in the body which was created (Hebrews 10:5-7) for Him, to become Immanuel-God with us.

You anthropormorphize God to make Him some sort of a Superman, which He obviously isn't.

God existed before time, or space or matter, in eternity, and you want to understand this? Good luck.
---Warwick on 7/19/10

How can people question God of what he is capable of doing?
He is God.

1 Tim.2:For one God,and ond Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is the Word of God that became flesh.

Unless you believe in the Word of God as truth-you don't believe in God.
The Word comes out of the mouth of the Father.If Jesus did not raise from the dead-He would not be the living.
But He did and He is.

Really no sense arguing- you either believe or you don't.
You either see it-or you don't.
---char on 7/19/10

...mystery makes God's word non-sensical. That is exactly right... Non-senseical to those who try to make sense out of what is purposed to be mysterious. Godliness is a mystery.

Remember the new 3:16, 1 Timothy ... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So let no man deceive you and try to put God in a box or the Encyclopedia Britannica.
---aka.joseph on 7/19/10


Then please allow me to quote one last scholar on your behalf.

In the words of the great sage Ned Flanders (of Simpson fame)...

---scott on 7/19/10

David, I do not agree with your Synopsis (7/14/10).

The correct synopsis: 'The Word was a god', and to come to earth as a man, 'the Word was made Flesh.'

David- How could 'the Word' (Jesus) become 'the Christ' if he is already 'God the Spirit'? Do you understand what the word 'Christ' means?

In respect of Romans 5:10, if Christ is AlmightyGod, how can there be a death that 'reconciles man to God', if Christ is eternal?

Also, 1 Tim.2:5, 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.'

So if Christ is a triune-God, how does Christ fulfill the role as both God & mediator between himself and man?

The triune-trinity mystery makes God's word non-sensical.
---David8318 on 7/19/10


does scott ever speak for scott? I do not care what experts say. Leeches, which were the experts recommendation way back when, were once used for whatever ails you. I prefer rest and/or ibuprofen.

and does scott not pay attention to the fact that I am not a trinitarian. I consider ALL scripture with a grain of salt, and hold the NWT, and it talks about a God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. They are witness to each other. Deity is a mystery according to Paul and I agree.

you do not have to try to convince me.
---aka.joseph on 7/19/10


Plural 'Elohim'

Biblical scholars refer to this as the 'plural of majesty'.

See IS 19:4 where the Egyptians are given into the hand of a cruel 'lord or 'master' -adhonim, pl. of adhohn. But just one master.

Consider too.

El is singular for God. Elohim is plural. But notice the problem that this presents from a trinitarian perspective if we understand this as a literal plural in reference to the Almighty.

The hebrew word for king is 'melech'. The plural is 'melachim.' But this does not give us three persons in one king, but rather, multiple kings.

Elohim, if understood as a literal multiple suggests, not three persons in one God, but multiple Gods. Polytheism.
---scott on 7/19/10

Warwick: Congrats on reaching 100 votes. You well deserve it!
---jerry6593 on 7/18/10

I agree, sincerely. He has worked hard for it. He is world renowned I understand.
---Trav on 7/19/10

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Micha9344 you appear to have run out of things to say because you now start to make up that which is not true.

Where have I said, "'a god' proceeded from the God and shared His glory". (micha9344 7/18/10)

I've never said this, neither do I believe God shares his glory with anyone.

Isaiah 42:8 states, "I am Jehovah. That is my name, and to no one else shall I give my own glory."

There is only one Eternal, AlmightyGod and that is Jehovah (YHWH).

Polytheism can be found in Christendom's triune-trinity whose Hellenic, Neo-platonic philosophies are easily traceable back to Babylons false triadic gods.
---David8318 on 7/19/10

Micha9344- I disagree with you on your conclusion that the same rules of Greek grammar do not apply to John 1:1 and Acts 28:6. Many Bible translators over the years will disagree with you too.

Both verses show the Greek word 'theos' in these 2 verses describe the subject in the verse (the verb).

Your Bible correctly translates Acts 28:6 to show 'theos' describes what people thought Paul 'to be'- "a god". Greek doesn't have the indefinite article. English translators must insert 'a' at Acts 28:6 to show this.

The same holds true with John 1:1. How can the 'Word' be the 'God' he 'was with'?

Correct translations are Jo.1:1- 'The Word was a god'.

Acts 28:6- '(Paul) was a god'. Consistent and accurate.
---David8318 on 7/19/10


elohim is plural for God. The Watchtower may or may not explain it the way you say, but there does indicate there two or more in the Diety. However, elswhere in the Bible, it mentions only God, Jesus, an the Holy Spirit.

A mystery? can one God be three Even Paul calls it a mystery.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
---aka.joseph on 7/19/10


Since you've abandoned our previous discussion about eternal or functional subordination without a response, I can only assume that you agree with MHO regarding the inherent dilemma for trinitarians with this argument.

Isaiah 43:10- Context- Since no one existed before him, the idolatrous Gentile nations formed no god before Jehovah. Nor would they at a future time form any real, living god that was able to prophesy. (Isa. 46:9, 10) But that does not mean that Jehovah never caused to exist anyone who is appropriately referred to as a god.

"I have said, Ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High." Ps 82:1, 6

Question- Who is the 'true God' according to John 17:3?
---scott on 7/19/10

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From the NT scriptures it is clear that Jesus was the Messiah, Son of God who is "one with the Father".
---AG on 7/19/10


Isaiah 43:10(NW) says, "Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none." There is only ONE true God or Godhead (elohim) However, the Watchtower Society would try and teach there are TWO: an Almighty God (the Father) and a Mighty God (the Son)whom Jehovah God the Father created. This erroneous teaching also violates the Bible teaching that everything that was created was created by Jesus Christ (Col.1:16-17 & John 1:3)and He did not create Himself! A tri-une Godhead is your answer Scott, and it is Biblical!!
---Ernest_1 on 7/19/10

...and the Word was God.
---Linda on 7/18/10

So 'a god' proceeded from the God and shared His glory. How polytheistic of you.
---micha9344 on 7/18/10

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'David- You mistranslate John 1:1. The anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. 'Theos' describes the word, it doesn't identify the Word as 'theos'. Correct rendering: 'the Word was a god'. Context and grammar agree. Same principle used at Acts 28:6.'--David8318 on 7/18/10
Literal John 1:1b and God was the Word.
Literal Acts 28:6a(they)said God he was.
There is no way the same grammar rule can be applied to these 2 verse parts, but: Literal 1Cor 10:4b and Rock was the Christ.
Same grammar usage. If we apply this from the KJV: 'and that Rock was Christ', we get 'and that God was the Word'.
Now context and grammar agree.
of course, JW's can't hear this heresy and the NWT 1Cor 10:4 is well skewed also.
---micha9344 on 7/18/10

and the word became flesh, that would be GOD's word that became flesh, not God Himself.
---mike on 7/18/10

"it would be the equivalent of saying because a human father was greater than his son - the son would have to be sub-human or an animal!" Ernest_1

This argument is flawed because we see other examples of this very thing in scripture without drawing your conclusion.

In heaven angels are rightfully called gods. (Elohim- Ps 8:5/Heb 2:7) but this does not mean that they are, in any way, equal to the Father or the Son. Nor does it make them (to follow your logic) sub-angels or perhaps (heaven forbid) 'human' does it?

The same is true of those men in scripture who were referred to as god (Ex 7:1). The Judeo/Christian understood that titles (like god) were relative based on who they were attributed to.
---scott on 7/18/10

David- You mistranslate John 1:1. The anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. 'Theos' describes the word, it doesn't identify the Word as 'theos'. Correct rendering: 'the Word was a god'. Context and grammar agree. Same principle used at Acts 28:6.

So 'the Word' (Jesus) was 'a god' or 'divine' before coming to earth, but was 'made a little lower than angels' and 'became flesh'. Jo.1:14.

You translate 1 Tim.3:16 as 'God was manifest in the flesh' (when in fact 'He' is used in Greek and not 'God'). So please explain the part which reads 'God was... received up in glory'?

What condition was God in before being received up in glory? Who received God?

Also Romans 10:9- How can 'God raise God up from the dead'?
---David8318 on 7/18/10

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"The Father is greater in RANK than the Son but equal in SUBSTANCE..." Ernest

I fully understand the concept of 'eternal subordination'. What is made clear by professor Ware (below) is that language describing one person in the 'Godhead' as ontologically 'greater than' or 'subordinate to' the others makes the argument for genuine equality very difficult to make.

I'm sure you are aware that many trinitarians view 'eternal generation' as heretical.

Perhaps somewhat ironically one of the prominent books that describes JWs as 'cultic', likewise identifies this view as 'beyond the deliverances of Scripture' and that it 'should not be made [one of the] elements of Trinitarian orthodoxy."
---scott on 7/18/10

Warwick: Congrats on reaching 100 votes. You well deserve it!
---jerry6593 on 7/18/10

The Father is greater in RANK than the Son but equal in SUBSTANCE - both being fully GOD. A human father is greater in RANK than his son - but both are equally HUMAN. If one followed the Watchtower reasoning that only the Father was God and Jesus was an inferior god, it would be the equivalent of saying because a human father was greater than his son - the son would have to be sub-human or an animal!
---Ernest_1 on 7/17/10

1Co 6:14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.

God raised who? What did he raise?
---aka.joseph on 7/16/10

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It was a little humour Trav.
---Warwick on 7/16/10

I know, I know. I was laughing my head off, about how things that are most important to us slip out sometimes in humour.
Hey your just human like the rest of us. Can't find a nickels worth of superiority in you over anyone else. Humble is the mark of the game right?

Colossians 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
---Trav on 7/16/10

Hierarchy and functional subordination in the trinity.
The trinitarian slippery slope-

Bruce Ware (evangelical theologian, author and professor of Christian Theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) says regarding the trinitarian hierarchy:

"The Father is, in his position and authority, supreme among the Persons of the Godhead."...

..."Rather, the Father retains the place of ultimate and supreme authority over all, and he retains the position for which highest honor and glory is owed."

Bruce Ware, 'Father, Son, & Holy Spirit: Relationships, Roles, and Relevance' (Crossway, 2005)

Unilateral equality?
---scott on 7/16/10

It was a little humour Trav.
---Warwick on 7/16/10



Trying to decipher your comments in a long, unbroken paragraph (particularly when little of it seems to be related to the issue at hand) is frankly getting...well...a little weird. (IMHO)

Sorry, can you decode some of that or should we switch topics to 'speaking in tongues'?
---scott on 7/16/10

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Thanks aka I looked and indeed I am 100! Can we exchange these votes for points and buy things? That would be good.
---Warwick on 7/15/10

Most self inflated sky pilots make merchandise of Christ. Why not? Give the man 30 cents a point or a prize for his effort.

2 Peter 2:3
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
---Trav on 7/16/10

MarkV, Actually the LAST words Jesus spoke is Father forgive them for they know not what they do....that concerning Israel.

And too we see on the day of Pentecost JEWS, probably MANY of the ones who cried Crucify Him Crucify Him were saved that day. WhAT OVER 3000 ADDED TO THE CHURCH! No Gentiles were saved that day.

It was only what 50 days after His Crucifiction? All right there.
---kathr4453 on 7/16/10

I understand scott, It's not addition but multiplication, 1x1x1=1, 1 cubed, 3 dimensional, all sides the same yet different.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
1Cor 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
2Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen
Hierarchy does not establish inequality.
My son and I are completely human with all that entails. He is subject, not 2nd class.
---micha9344 on 7/16/10

No more chances. "His own received Him not" John 1:11. Matthew 23 contains the Saviors final words of agony over Israel His chosen nation. ---Mark_V. on 7/16/10

His own was Judah. He was of the tribe of Judah.
Your doctrine makes the prophets and Jesus a liar. Matt 15:24. Heb 8:8. A major thing you seem to have no problem with.

A verse Scott posted:"Therefore let "ALL" the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you impaled." Acts 2:34-36

The Sheep House and gates are in fine shape and found at the end of Revelations. Being objectionable and avoiding majority of scripture does not make your doctrine a truth.
---Trav on 7/16/10

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No more chances. "His own received Him not" John 1:11. Matthew 23 contains the Saviors final words of agony over Israel His chosen nation. Eight times during His last public exchange with Israel's leaders, our Messiah cried out, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites" finally, with a borken heart, the Son of the Infinite God declared, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks, under her wings, but you were not willing, see. Your house is left to you desolate" Matt. 23:37,38
---Mark_V. on 7/16/10

micha, (2)

Paul acknowledges that while there are many "gods" and many "lords," "there is actually to us one God the Father...and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 8:5, 6

Of course Jehovah is referred to as "Lord' 100s of times but Paul makes an interesting (and unavoidable) distinction between 'God' and Jesus.

As 'Lord of Lords' Jesus has magnificent authority, glory and power, but "every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Phil. 2:9-11

And of course Christ will "hand over the kingdom to his God and Father and will subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him..." 1 Cor. 15:24-28.
---scott on 7/16/10

micha, (1)

I readily admit (as you have suggested) that my math skills aren't what they should be, guilty as charged. And yet somehow I believe that you would have us believe that 1+1+1=1. Perhaps a math discussion for another time...

Clearly both Jehovah and Jesus Christ are rightfully called "Lord of Lords".

But note that it is the Father who makes the Son 'Lord'. This draws attention to the Father's authority over the Son. The Son does not place the Father in any position.

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you impaled." Acts 2:34-36

---scott on 7/16/10

One of the false ideas put forward by many is that JESUS is a lesser god or type of god.

This ignores the truth that there is only one true GOD. All other gods are false. So JESUS cannot be a lesser god since there is only ONE GOD. But JESUS is the LOGOS and he is the Father. John1, Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, [that] the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth... Micah 5,2

On the Watchtower they said the rule would be establidhed before all those in their group who are born again which are the leaders would not die before all fulfilled. They are all dying of old age. They teach that most are not born again yet they will see the Kingdom of Heaven in direct contridiciton to John 3.
---Samuel on 7/16/10

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The bible says...I and the Father are one..who is speaking..Jesus. Just like a son and his father are so much alike that they say they are one, like when two people get married, they become one. ...---Joyce on 7/16/10

Joyce, I loved your reply, you mention simplicity. It is so simple no one sees it. Maybe you will see another thing. GOD married Jer 3:14. He is joined/one ruling with a people. They commit adultery and GOD divorces...the Nth House not the Sth. He says he will remarry Hosea/Isa. Jesus/ YahShua arrives. He dies and the re-marriage is made possible by not breaking any marriage laws.
---Trav on 7/16/10

Only YHWH is God, there is no other God but YHWH, Jesus is YHWH's son, Yashua a totally different entity from YHWH and totally subservient in authority to YHWH, that is what being at the right hand of the Father means. It is a matter of PATRIA POTESTA, the son is always subservient to the father while the father live and YHWH lives forever. John 10:30 "The Father and I are one" does not mean that are the same, it simply alludes to a unity of purpose, ideas, and view point, it really means that they are of one accord. Neither Jesus or the Holy Spirit are gods they are divine but only second echelon deity. Jesus knew is his place in the family and you need to understand it as well!!!
---Friendly_Blogger on 7/16/10

"Was Jesus God in the Flesh?"
The Father can not be contained, all is contained within Him.
Jesus is the Father's Son, His Word, as His One and Only expression brought forth exclusively of Himself. That Word was made flesh (tangible), and bodily, is the 'fulness', as He who (has been) filled, of His Spirit.
Jesus referred to Himself, as the Son of man, as one whose body was brought forth of a woman.
Jesus is referred to scripturally, as the son of David, as one whose embryo was produced through the preternatural combination of the sperm or reproductive cell David and the egg of Mary via the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit.
Father is the Great and invisible I AM, His Son is visible image and expression of Himself.
---joseph on 7/16/10

Yes! Just look what those who say otherwise are called.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
---jerry6593 on 7/16/10

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The bible says...I and the Father are one..who is speaking..Jesus. Just like a son and his father are so much alike that they say they are one, like when two people get married, they become one. Who in heaven sits at Gods right hand on that throne? Jesus does. They are two yet one. God even speeks..Behold this is my he points not at his self, but another is quiet simple. Jesus was in heaven in the beginning...when God first made man. The bible says no man has seen God, man has seen Jesus...
---Joyce on 7/16/10

scott, lol, ok
Who is your true Lord of lords, now that my post concerning this is well down the list? interesting tactic.
John 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him
1John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
No need to teach you trigonometry if you haven't learned algebra yet.
Exo 7:1...What was pharoah's view of a god?
Moses was a god in pharoah's eyes much like himself and isn't pharoah a false god? Are you telling me Moses was God?
Would anyone be wrong to worship Moses?
Quite different than the unspotted Word made flesh.
---micha9344 on 7/15/10

Cliff, Thomas says He will not believe that the Lord Jesus has risen from the dead unless he sees and touches Him.

'Then he (Jesus) said to Thomas, "put your finger here,see my hands..." 'Thomas said to him "My Lord and my God."' 'Then Jesus told him "because you have seen me you have believed.."

You want us to believe Thomas' response, his statement of faith in who Jesus was, was not directed at Jesus! I disagree as Thomas words clearly mean he now believes (Jesus agrees he now does) that his risen Lord and God, stood right before him!

You would have us believe Thomas blasphemed and the Lord Jesus Christ, did not rebuke him, in fact commended him! What Jesus commended blasphemy!
---Warwick on 7/15/10

Scott as I have often said words are defined by context.

Abraham, though a great man of faith was never called The God, (ho Theos) the Alpha and the Omega, the Saviour, or the Creator. All names/titles shared by Jesus and Gehovah God.

Further in Zechariah 10:12 Jehovah God says "they will look upon me the one they pierced, and they will mourn." Revelation 1:7 speaking of Jesus says "look he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him." We know Jesus was pierced, but Zechariah says Jehovah God also was. Who is coming in the clouds? The Lord Jesus, therefore on all accounts they are one and the same person.
---Warwick on 7/15/10

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Thanks aka I looked and indeed I am 100! Can we exchange these votes for points and buy things? That would be good.
---Warwick on 7/15/10

"Who is your true Lord scott?" micha

My response: Don't you mean true 'Lord of Lords'?


"Deny the Christ, deny the Father..." micha

My response: Using scripture alone, explain what it means to 'deny the Christ'. What verse(s) in any way connect this to the belief and acceptance of the triune nature of God? (Note: What verse(s) ?)


"Moses would be as god to pharoah like unto all Egypt's false gods." micha

My response: So Moses was a false God?
---scott on 7/15/10

Warwick, You're as slippery as an eel.
Jn.2o.26 Thomas "said to him" he did not "call" Him my Lord and my God" (slick?)
It's interesting that the NIV puts an exclamation mark(!) after Thomas' words to indicate surprise, of Jesus coming back to life after being killed and buried.
Vs.29 "You have seen and believed" Believed what? that He was God??? You know better than that warwick. He believed that He was the risen Christ!
You can fool all the people some of the time ,and some of the people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time..(I think that was Abe Lincoln)
---1st_cliff on 7/15/10

Cliff, your story fails by Scripture, again!

John 20:

Verses 19,20 Jesus appears among His disciples-shows them "his hands and side."

2) Vs. 25 Thomas won't believe unless he sees the evidence of crucifiction.

3) Vs. 26 Jesus appears-says to Thomas see and touch "Stop doubting and believe."

4) Thomas' responds by calling Jesus "My Lord and my God" Literally' The lord of me and the God of me."Jesus the 'ho Theos' the God.

And you would have us believe Thomas' exclamation was a blasphemous utterance! And no one remonstrated with Thomas for this serious sin!

But Jesus response to being called-The Lord and the God-was to acknowledge Thomas now believed!
---Warwick on 7/15/10

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Faulty reasoning scott. Sarah did not call Abraham Lord of lords.
Who is your true Lord scott?
Deny the Christ, deny the Father...
Moses would be as god to pharoah like unto all Egypt's false gods.
Again you take a word and try to manipulate the other meanings into that verse.
A true student of JW's.
Context is the key.
---micha9344 on 7/15/10

Warwick, We've been thru this before,"Oh my god" and "Oh my lord" are common expressions of surprise even today!
When Thomas was "taken aback" he expressed "My Lord and My God" so the fundamentalists say...see? see? he called him "God" Ya right!
After walking,talking, eating with and fellow shipping with Jesus for more than 3 years Jesus said "Who do you say I am?"
Did Thomas pipe up and say "You are God"?
No, none of His followers did. Doesn't that tell you something?
But you know something the Apostles didn't know,huh?
---1st_cliff on 7/15/10


you are now in triple digits as you have my vote.
---aka.joseph on 7/15/10

"Do they deny the Lordship of Jehovah?" micha

No. But they also recognize that Sarah called Abraham 'Lord'. (1 Peter 3:6) They would be foolish to conclude that this meant Abraham and Jehovah were the same person.

Biblical titles or appellations (particularly as understood by the first-century Judeo/Christian) could be applied to different individuals for different reasons.

Moses was referred to as God. (Ex 7:1) Not 'as' God or 'like' God, but simply 'God'. (Angels and judges were also referred to as gods.)

Moses is not Jehovah because they share this title. 'Lord' like 'God' can indicate a position of authority or representation of the absolute authority of the Almighty God. Context is key.
---scott on 7/15/10

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Scott, you write of Jesus' "lordship" but the Bible calls Him Lord, doesn't it? This is the Jesus who the apostle Thomas called "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28) when Jesus appeared before this previous doubter and revealed exactly who He was! Both Thomas' Lord and God.

When JW's celebtate Jesus Lordship, as Creator, Redeemer and King of Kings we will all praise God. Until then.
---Warwick on 7/14/10

---mima on 7/14/10

There was never a time when HE was not.
HE is the First and the Last.
---JIM on 7/14/10

Then scott, do they deny the Lordship of Jehovah?
Deu 10:17a For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords
Psa 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords,
Rev 17:14b ...for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings... (Rev 19:16)
Mat 6:24a No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other, or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other... (Luke 16:13)
Unless...John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
---micha9344 on 7/14/10

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...and please dont fill this blog with a load of Jehovahs witness comments...if you dont recognise the Lordship of Jesus ask God to reveal it..." richard

Richard, fyi,

All of Jehovah's Witnesses recognize the lordship of Jesus.
---scott on 7/14/10

Be under no illusion people quote scripture from John claiming Christ Joshua the son of to be the only, God Almighty (YAHWEH).

The word proves that the Almighty God, I AM, in the beginning is YAHWEH, not Joshua literally Christ .

Jhn 10:30
I and [my] Father are one.

Jesus is the word the word is Jesus and Gods word is his son, fulfilled in the flesh. That is God YAHWEH in the spirit and God in the son the Flesh. Both spirit and flesh conquered through the Godhead. Father/son and Holy Spirit.

---Carla on 7/14/10

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh 1 John 1:1,In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God,and the Word was God,John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us,and we beheld his glory,the glory as the only begotten of the Father,full of grace and truth. John 10:30 I and my Father are one. 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in Heaven,the father,the Word,and the Holy Ghost,and these three are one. The Word,Jesus became a man,flesh and blood,for God is a Spirit John 4:24. All parts of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost are God,that is the great mystery to mankind how can God be all those parts,my answer for that is because he is God. If you're confused,don't be just accept it,that is what faith does.
---Darlene_1 on 7/14/10

...and please dont fill this blog with a load of Jehovahs witness comments go and find your own website..if you dont recognise the Lordship of Jesus ask God to reveal it,so that your salvation may be by faith and not works,because your works cannot save you..
---richard on 7/14/10

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Thats how you know the spirit of antichrist. Anyone that claims Jesus Christ is not come in the flesh.. meaning he is not God is of the spirit of antichrist.

Idk how many times the Bible has to say He formed the world for it to sink in that this man is the physical manifestation of our Creator.

He is the Word made flesh.

"If you believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins."
---JackB on 7/14/10

John 14:8-10

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
---JackB on 7/14/10

Yes, Jesus himself proclaims that he is indeed God, and he has also proven so. And both testaments proclaim that Jesus is God. "Know therefore this day, and consider in your heart, that the LORD, he God, in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath, none else. You all call me The LORD, indeed you all say well, for I am. I am the Alpha and the Omega, Beginning and Ultimate, says the Lord, which from being, and which to being, and which coming, The Almighty." Dt.4:39+ Jn.13:13+ Rev.1:8.
---Eloy on 7/14/10

John 1:1-14
---Cluny on 7/13/10
Thankyou Cluny,
Because of the storms here in Georgia on Monday night I was unable to respond to the other post on this subject before it closed.

I had hoped that if the other David saw these two verses posted side by side he may change his mind.

(John 1:1)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(John 1:14)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

"The word was God, and the word was made Flesh."
---David on 7/14/10

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Candice if the Lord Jesus Christ is not God in the flesh why does 1 Timothy 3:16 say he is God manifest in the flesh?

Why does Colossians 2:9 say all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form?

By the way being someones son means you are of the one substance, and equal with your father. And Jesus is the Son, not a son. As Jesus said-I and the Father are one.
---Warwick on 7/14/10

No. Jesus is Gods only begotten son. When Jesus was baptised his father spoke from the heavens saying this was his beloved son.
Again the trinitarioan cocept is false.Jesus is seperate from his father. Noone has seen God & lived to tell about it, plenty of people saw Jesus & told about him. Jesus is our brother & king.His father is our father.
---candice on 7/13/10


John 1:1-14
---Cluny on 7/13/10

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