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Do We Deserve Grace

Is grace something that we deserve?

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 ---MarkV. on 7/28/10
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no we dont deserve it but God thinks were worth it- we deserve hell -becuz God is perfect- thats why Jesus died- the perfect sacrificed on our behalf- we must be worth it - but we surely dont deserve it
---lolita on 8/6/10

And if we accept it, we still dont deserve it. Therefore, it is still grace.
---JackB on 8/6/10

...if we deserved it,it wouldnt be grace...
---richard on 8/6/10

John 3:16 is not the salvation of the world but the "whosoever".... in your distaste for Calvinism you are the one changing the scriptures,yes salvation is for all but we all know the effect of free-will (in fact there is no free will untill saved as Satan blinds the minds of the unregenerate).Anyway as a calvinist I wouldnt rule out anyone for salvation,God can choose who He likes...the fact that some reject their position at the end of the millenium is just a hint of His love for the lost.
---richard on 8/6/10

Well Mark you proved my point. You have to change the meaning of Peter to what it does not say for If it means exactly what it says then all would be saved.

But in order to defend Calvanism you have to change scripture to suit your doctrine. Instead of changing doctrine to suit scripture.

GOD so loved the World is what scripture says but Calvinism does not teach that is true. It changes scripture to what those who believe that GOD chooses for us want it to say.
---Samuel on 8/6/10

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

JackB, I have shown this to Markv many many times.

Romans 11:27-29

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their( ISRAEL"S) sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they(ISRAEL) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they( again Israel) are beloved for the father's sakes. Israel is the FATHERS Elect. The Church are Christ's Elect. Please KNOW the difference.
---kathr4453 on 8/6/10

... you do not even know how to interpret Scripture correctly...

Everyone from a different denomination gets accused of being unlearned. Its water off a ducks back.

Israel is not God's elect

Go do a simple word search of "elect" and see how many times if refers to the coming Messiah (Jesus) and how many times it refers to Israel. I use KJV. You use the Geneva right?

I eagerly await the TRUE Greek/Hebrew meanings and differences between the words "chosen" and "elect".

Surely they can be made to fit into your doctrine like the words "whole world" "all men" "any" "whosoever" and "every man".
---JackB on 8/6/10

I do not think that deserve and earn are the same thing.

A new born baby deserves to have food, shelter, warmth, and clothing, but has done nothing to earn them.
---francis on 8/5/10

Deserve means to have earned to be worthy of something.

If Im not promised something, did I do it because I wanted something back, or do it because, no matter what, I would do it anyway.

Its Christ who is going to be rewarded for what HE did at Calvary. WE are Gods gift to Jesus Christ, we are HIS GREAT REWARD. WE are the pearl of great price HE laid down His life for. Does He deserve US?

Well the bible says:

Revelation 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
---kathr4453 on 8/4/10

Jack B, Romans 11:21 is refering to (natural branches) Israel. who was not spared despite being God's covenant nation, why should Gentiles, strangers to God's covenant (Eph. 2:11,12) (see 9:4) expect to be spared if they sin against the Truth of the gospel? Verse 22 refers "Consider the goodness and severity" All of God's attributes work in harmony, there is no conflict between His goodness and love, and His justice and wrath. Those who accept His gracious offer of salvation experience His goodness (v. 2:4), those who reject it experience His severity (2:5). Those who fell, are the unbelieving Jews described in (v. 12:21) "Fell" translates a Greek word meaning "to fall so as to be completely ruined."
---MarkV. on 8/3/10

Jack B 2:
When you answer you have a lot to say about Calvinism and you do not even know how to interpret Scripture correctly and how would you know what is right and what is wrong? Yet you say a lot. It is all talk Jack. You are confused, when you say, "God's elect, the Israelites" and give Romans 11:21,22. Israel is not God's elect, it's His chosen nation. There is an elect from within Israel. For not all are save. The one's who rejected already God, are lost forever. You threw OSAS into the picture to make your case and we have not talked about that subject yet. It is no wonder why you ask me to tell you if I believed in all five points, you were trying to find something else to say without any Scripture.
---MarkV. on 8/3/10

All the useless warnings the Holy Ghost wrote to us:

how we can be deceived if we arent careful...
how we can fall back into sin if we arent careful ..
and how we can deny the very Lord that bought us with false doctrines...

All those warnings are for nothing to someone who isnt ready to accept the fact that we CAN shipwreck the faith! Its scriptural!

Some would rather follow the teachings of a heretic than trust in the fact that they must remain faithful to God. Not perfect! But you cannot deny the Lord who bought us. You also cannot mock Him. "The dog has returned unto his own vomit"

Hes never gonna let Calvinism go because hes not ready to accept OSAS is not scriptural.
---JackB on 8/2/10

I mean its right here!

Romans 11:21,22

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

You think this scripture is for the lost world? You know better! Its a warning for us NOT to make the same mistake Gods elect the Israelites made or else He will cut us off as well.
---JackB on 8/2/10

MarkV ... I'm continuing our dialogue from the "Was Creation instantaneous" blog

I accecpt that God has the power to elect whom He will for glory or destruction.

But you say He decides controls our actions, evil or good. that So, He has made them so that they will be evil & He has decided that they will not be saved, but be subjected to eternal torment.

So God is punishing them for behaving as He decreed. They had no choice but to behave like that.

My questions, which you've never answered are
How can acting as you've been controlled, be disobedience?
"How can you call God loving, and how can you say He is justly punishing them for disobedience?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/2/10

Samuel, sorry but 2 Peter 3:9 is not talking about every single individual. If it was all would be save because nothing is impossible with God and also because He has mercy on whom He will have mercy on.
No, the passage is talking about "the beloved" the people he was writing to in this second epistle. "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise" the promise is for believers only. "as some call slackness, but is longsuffering toward "us" the "us" is the beloved, "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" the "all" is all the one's that will come after who will be saved. Some are not even born yet.
---MarkV. on 8/2/10

On the Basis of Romans 3 the answer is no. We can do nothing and it is impossible for us to do anything that deserves Grace. It is a gift of love.

GOD loves everyone. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If Calvanist were correct then GOD would save everyone. This is called Universalism and many have turned to it so as to give up an unjust god who tortures people for all eternity for doing what he made them do.
---Samuel on 8/2/10

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MarkV, question. You say God decides who will be saved and who will go to hell. You also say God decides who he will give faith to to believe. ON WHAT BASIS has God chosen YOU? Because you are a good person? Because God saw something in you better than anyone else?

Or as Roger stated, is it the wheel of fortune?

God justifies the WICKED, not the righteous.

Since you seem to know so much about the subject of your election, please let us then know WHY God chose you?

Please don't say I DON'T KNOW!

I know WHY I am in Christ. He knocked on the door and I OPENED the door, when I did, He came INTO ME. When I opened the Door, I RECEIVED Him. Rev 3, John 1!
---kathr4453 on 8/2/10

This is exactly why I dont read anything other than the KJV. Our Bibles dont even say the same thing.

Col 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Jesus Christ is Gods "elect" (according to OT and NT scripture) and when we trust in Him we are hidden in Him. Justified by HIS faith. Crucified with Him and one day to be resurrected just as He was.

There is an election, but its not as you have been taught, brother.

Calvinist: elect before coming to Christ

Truth: elect after being IN Christ
---JackB on 8/1/10

Jack B, what is your question? You said,
"When do you actually become perfect as Jesus Christ? When he returns to get us, when we are changed into his likeness. Until then we strive to be like Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost!"
I agree with 1 John 3:1-4.
We are not perfect yet, we strive to reach the goal. Our glorification will come after we die physically. Only then will we be made perfect. Jesus will sustain us to the Day of the Lord, 1 Cor. 1:7-9.
Colo. 3:3 "For we died" The verb's tense indicates that a death occured in the past, in this case at the death of Jesus Christ, where believers were united with Him, their penalty of sin was paid, and they rose with Him in new life.
---MarkV. on 8/1/10

Jack B, from the foundation of the world God choose (elected) certain people - MarkV

The flip side of that (which offers just as much biblical evidence and scripture as yours does) is that God "elected" A certain people/group (not individuals). Who? Those that are IN Christ, His church! Those who have access to the grace in which they now stand by what? FAITH!

Heretics and gloating sinners inside the church were cast OUT of the church. Delivered unto satan....for destruction of the flesh... so they might learn NOT to blaspheme. Sound familiar?

A man can remove himself FROM this church by denying the very Lord that bought him. This is scriptural. I just showed it to you a few days ago.
---JackB on 7/31/10

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More that is scriptural that Im sure the Calvinist church doesnt expound upon..

The INDIVIDUAL that is 'elected' (as you put it) matters not, because they are now HIDDEN in Christ (Col 3:3). We are dead!

When do you actually become perfect as Jesus Christ? When he returns to get us, when we are changed into his likeness. Until then we strive to be like Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost!

1 John 3:2,3

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it
doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
---JackB on 7/31/10

Paul spoke to Jew and Gentile alike
michael_e on 7/31/10

I am sorry Michael I posted very late last night and did not give a credible witness to my statement.
(1 Corinthians 9:20-21)KJV
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews, to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law, To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
---David on 7/31/10

Third, God decides who is and isn't going to be saved. He gives the ability and does not force them to come to Christ.
---MarkV. on 7/31/10

Gee MarkV, what is the big deal over ONE WORD? I just don't know why MarkV has made such a big deal over one word...elect.

God Decides is the new word of Markv's today.

MarkV, many here disagree with your interpretation of salvation.

But, don't make such a big deal about it OK!!! Take the advise you gave Donna, and don't make such a BIG DEAL about a WORD!!!

Now if you truly believe as you do, you would have told Donna the truth....we don't travail (SELF EFFORT WORKS) to get what WE WANT!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/31/10

Roger, Seems to me you said I believed what you said, which I don't,
"If Marv_V believes as he does about Grace, it is in opposition to your beliefs. He's telling you that there is nothing you can do to be saved. God decides who is and isn't saved strictly based on the heavenly wheel of fortune."
How do you know that is what I believe? Where does the wheel of fortune come from?
God does not need a wheel of fortune to do what He wants. He is God.
First, it is in opposition to her believes.
Second, there is nothing you can do about saving yourself. The faith to believe comes from God.
Third, God decides who is and isn't going to be saved. He gives the ability and does not force them to come to Christ.
---MarkV. on 7/31/10

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Jack B, from the foundation of the world God choose (elected) certain people. Israel had a remnant of believers in the Old Testament. They were the elect. When the grace of God was turned over to the Gentiles, many Gentiles were also of the Elect. Being of the Elect does not make you save, they need to come to Christ also. All of the Elect will eventually come to Christ. Many are not born yet. They will all be born under sin, just like every person who is a descendant of Adam.
Paul tells us that through Grace the "election" receive salvation, and that the rest were hardened," then he adds, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear"
---MarkV. on 7/31/10

Paul spoke to Jew and Gentile alike

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law(Israel): that every mouth(Jew and Gentile) may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD may become guilty before God.
---michael_e on 7/31/10

How do you explain what Paul taught? Homer on 7/30/10

Pauls teaches both Jew and Gentile in his letters.
Many get confused by Pauls teachings because they read what was written to the Jews as if it were meant for the Gentile believers.

Example: Paul taught,"We are not under Law, but under Grace."
Were the Gentiles ever under the Law?
Why would Paul teach this to the Gentile believers?
He didn't, he wrote it to the Jewish believers, many of whom were raised Under the laws of Moses.

Notice when you read Pauls letters, he distinctly separates the Jews from the Gentiles in his letters.
If both Jew and Gentile were able to be taught by the same message, why would there be need for this separation?
---David on 7/30/10

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God,
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus....

That's the answer
---Linda on 7/30/10

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You do not want what you deserve!
Gods' graciousness towards men is undeserved favor. While it is a free gift to us, Jesus himself, paid the price by his vicarious sacrifice on the cross. Good works are a natural result of faith in God James 2:26, but earn no special scrip useable in Heaven's gift shop. 1Samuel 15:21-22, Isaiah 1:11-19, Jeremiah 16:19-20, Micah 6:6-8, Malachi 1:10, Luke 18:9-14, Acts 10:35, Romans 3:10-12, 22-28, 4:5-8, 5:12-21, 9:30-33, 1Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16, 21, Titus 3:4-7, Revelations 20:15.
---Glenn on 7/30/10

Not just NO but H--- NO do we deserve grace. The Bible says that NO man/woman is good, and ALL have sinned. The Bible says that Christ died for us while we were enemies of God. Grace is basicly God's Riches At Christs' Expense. The ONLY thing we as humans deserve is Hell, but Christ paid the price so we could be free from Hell, if we accept what Christ did. That is grace.
---Leslie on 7/30/10

Mark, who are the "elect" to you.

Do you believe they are simply individuals?

I would propose to you that the "elect" of God are those that are IN Christ. The Jews were Gods "elect" until they turned from Him. They didnt seek Him by faith, but by the law instead. Those branches were cut off. Yes .. the ELECT cut off! (Romans 11:21)

Those IN Jesus ("the church") are "predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son" as long as we remain in His goodness, or else we too shall be cut off!

The Holy Ghost would not warn us of false teachings in scripture if there were no danger. We still need "the whole armor of God".
---JackB on 7/30/10

Titus 2:11 "For the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
Not simply the divine attribute of grace, but Jesus Christ Himself, grace incarnated. God's supremely gracious gift to fallen mankind. (John 1:14). "All men" does not teach Universal salvation. "MarkV

Titus 2:11 does not teach universal salvation either. We're not saved by Grace appearing.

ALL MEN everywhere have and will be JUDGED by the Gospel Rom 2.

What if God Judged people by knowing the English language. Would He then make sure the English language has appeared to all men. So by all men knowing there is an English language one will be judged by, God can Judge according to HIS rules.
---kathr4453 on 7/30/10

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Donna5535, I realize your pride may be hurt at the moment. But to go around now from subject to subject accusing kathr as you are makes me think less of you each time. I see you are not here to discuss or give any scriptures on the subject of Grace. Is this because you really don't understand Grace?

If Marv_V believes as he does about Grace, it is in opposition to your beliefs. He's telling you that there is nothing you can do to be saved. God decides who is and isn't saved strictly based on the heavenly wheel of fortune. God is spinning a wheel, and if the arrow stops on your name, your saved.

---Roger on 7/30/10

I think so. I don't know what I ever did so wrong that justifies my not receiving "Grace". As someone has already stated: we did not ask to be placed here. I don't think we did. I don't recall,anyway. So why should we be cast into Hell for something we did not do. We are sinners because we descended from Adam, who sinned. His decision to do what he did, brought damnation upon all human flesh. To get back right with God, we must receive His Son Jesus Christ. The atonement for our sins. We do need Grace even if we don't deserve it.
---Robyn on 7/30/10

Not simply the divine attribute of grace, but Jesus Christ Himself, grace incarnated. God's supremely gracious gift to fallen mankind. ( John 1:14). "All men" does not teach Universal salvation. "Mankind" is translated as "man" in 3:4, to refer to humanity in general, as a category, not to every individual. (2 Cor. 5:19, 2 Peter 3:9). Paul makes clear in the opening words of this letter to Titus that salvation becomes effective only through "the faith of God's elect" (1:1).
---MarkV. on 7/30/10

So Catholic's were right when Romans 3:23 reads "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," That means Mary was not one of the "All"
---Ruben on 7/30/10

God gives grace to the righteous, and wrath to the wicked. And when the wicked repents, they will receive forgiveness and grace.
---Eloy on 7/30/10

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Titus 2:11 "For the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
Not simply the divine attribute of grace, but Jesus Christ Himself, grace incarnated. God's supremely gracious gift to fallen mankind. ( John 1:14). "All men" does not teach Universal salvation. "Mankind" is translated as "man" in 3:4, to refer to humanity in general, as a category, not to every individual. (2 Cor. 5:19, 2 Peter 3:9). Jesus Christ made a sufficient sacrifice to cover every sin of everyone who believes (John 3:16-18, 1 Tim. 2:5,6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2). Paul makes clear in the opening words of this letter to Titus that salvation becomes effective only through "the faith of God's elect" (1:1).
---MarkV. on 7/30/10

Unmerited favor: God gives favor to anyone that He wants for NO REASON?. So there's nothing we need to do to merit any favor with God?

We don't need to repent?

Luke 18:13-15

13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased, and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Can one receive Grace without Justification FIRST? NO!

HUMBLE YOURSELVES FIRST before God humbles you! The taxpayers ARROGANCE was humbled by God did not receive UNMERITED FAVOR!!!.
---kathr4453 on 7/30/10

Asking if someone deserves grace is like asking does a baby ndserve food, shelter and clothing.

A baby never asked to be born, and what type of parent neglects to feed a baby, or give them warm clothes? They did not ask to be born, but they deserve to be cared for.

We did not ask to be born into a world of sin. None of us brought sin into the owrld, and yet we are all victims of one man's sin.

Although we cannot earn grace, as a baby cannot earn food and warmth, we deserve a chance to live, that is only just: in God's case it is Love.
---francis on 7/30/10

However, if you are saying even YOU, who's names got picked don't deserve salvation, then pipe down, and keep it to yourself.
---kathr4453 on 7/30/10

kathr, this is now the SIXTH time I've seen another mean-spirited response from you.

Again, I ask why are you sooo mean-spirited in your responses? You use CAPS as if you are yelling at MarkV whom I know to be a real man of God, after God's own heart.

So why be so mean-spirited and why use CAPS and yell at us with your responses?

Moderator please let this post. Thank you.
---Donna5535 on 7/30/10

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Kathr....Jesus came to die for or sins.
1John4:10 says:In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Deserve does not fit in with the death of Christ. He came to be the sacrifice for our sins.
---JIM on 7/30/10

Genesis 4:3-5
3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

In the OT men FOUND favor or Grace in God's eyes, not because it was UNMERITED.

We see here Abel did something FIRST that God looked on him with FAVOR.

Unmerited favor is not the meaning of GRACE, any more than God Justifies anyone without merit. Abraham BELIEVED and then God JUSTIFIED him.
---kathr4453 on 7/30/10

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
---kathr4453 on 7/30/10

MarkV, do we deserve salvation? In the OT people were saved by FAITH..they looked forward to the NT we are saved by GRACE (Calvary realized and fulfilled) through faith.

Did OT saints DESERVE salvation?

YOU are the one promoting no free will, only those who God picked out of a hat deserving kind of grace.

However, if you are saying even YOU, who's names got picked don't deserve salvation, then pipe down, and keep it to yourself.

The question Marks is asking is did Jesus DESERVE to die on a cross for our sin that we may be saved? NO Christ DID NOT deserve our sin upon Him, but out of a Love we can't possibly imagine, God provided a way for ANYONE to come BOLDLY to the THRONE OF GRACE
---kathr4453 on 7/30/10

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******Does one grow in the favor of God by doing nothing?
If this was the Truth, the answer, "absolutely nothing" should be given to the question "What must I do to be saved."
---David on 7/29/10******

I have never thought of it that way before.
I have been reading your posts and you do make it easy to understand, but if what you say is true, how do you explain what Paul taught?
---Homer on 7/30/10

Tommy3007 can you explain a little further on what you mean by, "Salvation is ALL Grace?" on 7/29/10. That is my believe also but I have my own reasons, can you give yours?
---Bob on 7/29/10

Kathr, the question is about Grace. If you do not have anything good to present about Grace, you should not answer. This is about the Grace of God, not Calvin's grace or your grace or even mine. How God displayed His grace and if you deserve it. If you want to speak about Calvin, create a new blog so that you can fight everyone there who answers you. That should give you comfort.
---MarkV. on 7/29/10

We don't deserve His Grace, we can't earn His Grace, we can't pay for His Grace. It is a free gift, paid for by the shed blood of Christ.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
---michael_e on 7/29/10

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Blessed are those who have admitted and sadly realized that they are unworthy (undeserving) of any divine reward (their countenance is low, they become sad, "poor in spirit"). They desire "better things" than this carnal, material world has to offer themselves and their fellow human being (the brethren of humanity)....they desire peace and harmony (they have the inner kingdom in their heart and mind)...

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is...
......THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" (Matthew 5:3,...RSV).

Luke 17:21...KJV
"behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (other versions say "in the midst of you").
---more_excellent_way on 7/29/10

The "Calvinist Jihad"

"CalviNazis," as someone put it, arrogant, obnoxious young Calvinists or hyper-Calvinists (yes, there is a difference) whose spirit and life contradicts the glory of God that they claim to exalt.


The difference is, Muslims know when to quit. For CalviNazis, it is the only topic about which they can talk.

The irony is the failure of reasonable anti-Calvinists to rebuke the radicals, just as the allegedly peaceful Muslims fail to stand against the terrorist Muslim sects.
---kathr4453 on 7/29/10

Donna, first, were you crying out to God to change the way you speak to people? If you were it doesn't mean God wants you to change your way of doing things for Him, I'm not saying He doesn't want to continue to change you through sanctification to be more Christ like. God knows your own character and what He has to do concerning you.
Whatever you say, God already knows it's coming out. Who you are now, is exactly as God wants you to be for that time. Maybe later He wants you to change, and you will know because the Spirit will guide you in a different direction and you will not even know He is doing it. I believe the brother was wrong. Donna, God knows every step you take, He knows your heart inside out, He directs your steps.
---MarkV. on 7/29/10

NO WAY! The meaning of Grace is UNMERITED FAVOR. If you didn't merit favor, then you did NOT deserve or work for it. Grace unearned free favor so no one can boast. If you pay for a gift then it was purchased by U, not a gift.
"John 1:16 out of his fullness we have received grace upon grace", this means favor upon favor.
---SZ on 7/29/10

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We can't earn grace, if you have to pay for a "free gift" it isn't free.
---michael_e on 7/29/10

For GOD so loved HE GAVE His only Begotten Son upon a cross to die in our place so we can have eternal life.

God made possible for one to IDENTIFY with Christ in death, so that one will be raised up a New Creature, being given ETERNAL LIFE in the risen Christ. Gal 2:20-21..I AM CRUCIFIED with Christ....I am a NEW CREATURE In the RISEN CHRIST.

What on earth does GRACE have to do with having your name picked out of a hat. IT DOESN'T.

MarkV is asking,, do any deserve to have their name picked out of a hat?

ANS: God doesn't pick names out of a HAT...

Or do you deserve to have Christ in you before you were born?

ANS: Christ was not in anyone before they were born!
---kathr4453 on 7/29/10

MarkV, was this man right in his statement to me? I dont' think so because my bible says, "where sin increases Grace abounds all the more" and I wasn't sinning on purpose, just like Peter, things spill out of
---Donna5535 on 7/29/10
Donna5535, IF perhaps you read the whole chapter of Romans 5, it has nothing to do with OUR daily sins that abound to become grace, in spite of our good intentions.

It has to do with Christ and HIS WORKS. The law was brought in so that SIN WOULD ABOUND..Why, so that ALL, including Israel, even being God's chosen people were made aware they too were SINNERS in spite of being God's Elect.

God's Grace in SALVATION through Christ ALONE is what the chapter is about.
---kathr4453 on 7/29/10

Mark, ALL Christian denominations use speculation when scriptures dont seem to fit together. Just as yours, ALL Christian denominations think they have the sole truth.

If you label yourself as a certain denomination you have to expect criticism and debate.

Mark I posted those verses because they attack the core of Calvinism showing that God would never do such a thing. Solomon was given his wisdom by God. All scripture is inspired correct?

Those verses show that to pick certain people that are wicked and call them righteous is "NOT GOOD". But rebuking the wicked will bring a blessing upon you. And who blesses men?

God is no hypocrite nor does He practice things that are not good. He is holy!
---JackB on 7/29/10

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There seems to be a misunderstanding on your part about the "controversy" between Paul's teaching and James'. Paul taught that we are "saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast..." Ephesians 2:8-9 (paraphrased), Verse 10 of the same chapter says, "For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works that HE hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Salvation is ALL Grace, but, produces good works and right motives. James was teaching the same thing as Paul but, emphasized that our salvation would produce works glorifying to God, lest it (grace) be declared DEAD.
---tommy3007 on 7/29/10

It wouldn't be called, "grace" if we deserved it. "No", we don't deserve it. Here's a quick way to remember what God did: "God's Riches At Christ's Expense."
---wivv on 7/29/10

MarkV, I have a question for you regarding Grace.

In 2004 I met a man & He told me this true or false?

He said, "Donna you cry out to the Lord to change you, that you don't want a Peter's mouth (blurt things out sometimes in a hurtful way, but always in truth, because I don't know how to sugarcoat the truth, so I'm blunt) yet you still blurt things out, sometimes hurt people with the truth (like clobber them with and you don't change thus "YOU ABUSE GOD'S GRACE."

MarkV, was this man right in his statement to me? I dont' think so because my bible says, "where sin increases Grace abounds all the more" and I wasn't sinning on purpose, just like Peter, things spill out of
---Donna5535 on 7/29/10

Jack B, you want my opinion on whether King Solomon went to heaven or hell? I do not know the answer, the Bible does not tell us. God only knows.
Concerning Proverbes 24:23-25, you gave, what do you want to know? You just gave it out of the blue, and gave no reason. What is your point?
The rest you said is only your opinion, because you gave no passages for them, only what you feel in your heart to be correct. But no Scripture why. At least give the passages and say, "You see Mark, you are wrong." Then I can read the passages in its context to see if you are correct. Opinions mean nothing. They are only speculations from human who fail.
---MarkV. on 7/29/10

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Well MarkV the answer is in Romans 5

Where sin abounds GRACE MUCH MORE ABOUNDS>

Your peculiar understanding of we deserve it is a strange question?

Grace is CHRIST DIEING and Rising again. Grace is Christ in you.

WE are saved by Grace( CHRIST'S Finished WORK) through faith.
---kathr4453 on 7/29/10

It is true that the Grace that brought us the Savior, is the undeserved favor of God.(John 3:16)
But if thou shalt be saved by that same Grace, you must grow in the favor of God.
(2 Peter 3:18)
"But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

Does one grow in the favor of God by doing nothing?
If this was the Truth, the answer, "absolutely nothing" should be given to the question "What must I do to be saved."

Was that answer given to anyone, who asked that question in the Bible?
---David on 7/29/10

No, no and no. The answer is so obvious I question the question.
---larry on 7/28/10

The grace of God Is unmerited. We deserve Nothing that He does. Through His favor that He does what he does for us gentiles.
---Lawrence on 7/28/10

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Amen Jack B. and Kath

wonderful answers.
None of us are deserving of what gave and sacrificed because he loved the world.

John 3:16-21
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life!For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son........
21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God
---miche3754 on 7/28/10

Oh he does believe in the plan, Kathr.
Its just that the plan he believes in has God giving only a few men faith in Jesus Christ and leaves the rest to rot in hell.

In which case it makes NO difference how any man lives before OR after Christ since we are cherry picked anyways.

Does God teach us the ways of righteousness and not walk in them himself? Not at all!
God is NOT a hypocrite!

Proverbs 24:23-25

It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment.

He that saith unto the wicked, Thou art righteous, him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:

But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.
---JackB on 7/28/10

Perfect answer JackB.

MarkV, if you really understood scripture the plan of salvation was a covenant made long before we were even created....

Christ was for-ordained BEFORE the foundation of the world, but is manifest in these last days for us. God knew man would sin. God wanted children, and by doing that He had a plan to bring many SONS into Glory...that is above the clay.

That God would have such a plan in place before we were ever created is amazing. That WHOSOEVER will can become saved by the most awesome loving God.

If God knew we would be lost through ONE MAN'S SIN before he ever created Adam & Eve and be lost forever without any plan at all, would be i think wreckless. ALL would be lost.
---kathr4453 on 7/28/10

Paul says that we are saved by Grace through Faith.
You believe that Paul taught that we are saved by a Faith that is without works.

In(James 2:17-26) James says that Faith without works, is dead or worthless.
If faith without works is worthless, how can that type of Faith save you?
Is James wrong?
Is Paul wrong?
Or are you perhaps misinterpreting Pauls words?
There can be no other conclusion.

Who is wrong?
---David on 7/28/10

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These words out of Salmond's mouth indicates to me that he did not fall(as in lost).

Ecclesiastics 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."
---mima on 7/28/10

Actually, Mark, what I meant was a thread on the life of King Solomon and how he fell away from the Lord just before his death.

I still welcome your thoughts on Solomon's fall, since he was a man of God and full of Godly wisdom (which the "natural man" can't know).

Mercy = not getting the punishment we deserve
Grace = getting something wonderful we dont deserve

Its no longer Gods grace if we simply accept something He is trying to give to us???

Accepting a gift given in love and grace does not make the recipient any more worthy of it.

Therefore he still cannot boast.
---JackB on 7/28/10


But by the Blood of the Son and the Grace of G-d. For G-d is at war with us. You may say, but I not at war with G-d. NO... HE IS AT WAR WITH YOU and the result is Hell's fire.

So Jesus said..

I bring you peace, not as the world gives it. He didn't mean Tranquility , He meant a peace treaty between you and G-d.

Otherwise we will simply be tossed in the Lake of fire.... AS WE "DESERVE" TO BE!
---JOHN on 7/28/10

I believe that GRACE is like MERCY. It is a gift which we do not deserve.
Because we are sinners we deserve death but if by faith we accept His gift, we shall receive eternal life because He has died for our sins. What we need to do is to learn to accept His gift and live acccordngly, expressing our gratitude fro His gift.
---Pierre on 7/28/10

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Brother MarkV...I know that I do not deserve
---JIM on 7/28/10

We live in the age of Grace yet most people who call themselves Christians failed to recognize the magnificent magnanimous grace shown by God to mankind. Grace plays a more prominent role since the sacrifice of Jesus Christ than ever before. No one deserves grace and that fact shows the love of God for you and I.
---mima on 7/28/10

Good morning sister Donna, I welcome your answers. I did have a reason why I posted this question, it had to do with brother Jack B. He wrote,
I would love to start another thread on this. No doubt many people would have responses."
It was concerning Grace. And I believe discussing the subject is very important. Everyone answers are welcome. Your answer was perfect.
---MarkV. on 7/28/10

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