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Old Men Shall Dream Dreams

Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions" Fulfilled in Acts 2:17.
What is God talking about here?

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-- Ginger :

God knowing who will choose him does not mean God chose them. --Ginger

Sister, Do you believe God didn't Choose to Predestine our Choices which He Foreknew?... B/c Whom God did Foreknow{would accept Christ}, He also did Predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that Christ might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom.8:29

Ginger, We're in One Accord that God FOREKNEW(not pre-picked or excluded) who shall be Saved... but God hath Chosen us{who He Foreknew would accept Salvation} in Christ BTFOTW that we should be Holy and without blame before God in love : Having Predestinated us unto the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ to Himself, According to the Good Pleasure of His Will. Eph.1:4-5
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/19/10

-- Ginger :

Do you NOT think God wants all man saved as he says?... Do you not believe salvation has appeared unto all men?--Ginger

Sister, Like a farmer God wants all His seeds to rise up in the Harvest and he tends to the whole field with the Salvation of fertilizer, even though he Foreknows that some seeds shall remain in the ground b/c they will not die to self{John 12:24} & become Fruitful through receive the fertilizer... Foreknowing all this the farmer still plants & fertilizes ALL his seeds b/c he knows he'll have no Harvest to speak of until he sets it ALL in motion.

Ginger, What I Think, Believe & Want is for the Foreknowledge of God's Will to be done, and it shall be b/c His Word says it will.
---Shawn.M.T on 8/20/10

2 Peter 2:20 shows that we can indeed become believers and then turn away.

It warns us that it would be better to not know the holy commandment than to know it and turn away from it.
---JackB on 8/19/10

But Shawn, doesn't God say the plan? That was what I asked you about.
So the plan of sending Christ is what is set and those whom God draws to Christ are predestined because God set the plan to send Christ and knows who will choose him.
We negelect the 2 small words in those verses "In HIM" a lot But they are very important. They stand for Christ.
God knowing who will choose him does not mean God chose them. It means God knows who will choose him.
Do you NOT think that God wants all man saved as he says?
Do you not believe salvation has appeared unto all men?

I believe it because his word says it.
---ginger on 8/19/10

Jack B, 2:
just from one story, if God had answered Habakkuk prayer to save everyone who disrepected His law, God could have done it in a second. But God did not desired to save them but to bring judgment to them. If this is the God you believe in then you are ok, if not, you have a god you formed that you like. For God does as He pleases. He has mercy on whom He has mercy. He is not obligated to have mercy on everyone just to please you or Alan's believes. "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directed his steps" Prov. 16:9. For this reason we read, "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen" Rom. 11:36.
---MarkV. on 8/19/10

-- Ginger :

I do not believe God chose anyone from TFOTW except for Christ.--Ginger

Sister, Read your 2nd post on 8/19/10 :-) It happens. But there are inconsistency in regards to the context in which you view the Choices God Chose.

BTFOTW The Choice God Chose was to set in motion His Creation According to the Omniscience of His Foreknowledge, this being the Counsel & Good Pleasure of His Own Will. God Choosing to Predestine All of Creation(not just Christ) to the Foreseen Choices of His Foreknowledge is why He Foreknows who won't & will accept Christ, and it's why Eph.1:3-5 states According as He hath Chosen us in Him BTFOTW... Having predestinated us unto the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ to Himself.
---ShawnM.T. on 8/19/10

That lost man cannot do anything without the love of God coming to him first- Me

I absolutely believe this, but not in the same manner you do. I believe man can resist Gods grace. You believe it is irresistable.

We are judged for making the WRONG decisions, not for making the ones God wanted us to. Even a child knows this.

Hell was made for those who resist the sovereign will of God which is rooted in LOVE. It is possible to do so. Lucifer did it. Eve did it. Adam did it. We've all done it.
---Jackb on 8/19/10

Shawn, I am SOOOO sorry!
I misread your post!

I just realized thanks to JackB, that you and I ARE on one accord about this. Please forgive me!!
---ginger on 8/19/10

trav, I suppose you knew all along it was you whom I was speaking about. Glad you acknowledged that. I did not have to put your name down you recognize that other person as yourself.
If what you say is true, then why do you insult others when you answer? You could just give passages but you don't, you add your insults to your answers.
---Bob on 8/19/10

Jack B 2:
When God wants to save someone, He will put someone in the path of that which He wants to save. He will put a burden is someone's heart and they will answer the call of God and be where God wants them to be. And those whom God has determined of Himself to give not only repentance but faith to believe, will hear the Gospel and will believe it, they will receive a conviction by the Spirit and they will repent. They will acknowledge and respond to that conviction and will feel a sense of remorse for what they have done against God, something they never felt before, and they will ask for forgiveness and beg for mercy. Jesus says that anyone who comes to Him, He will in no way cast out.
---MarkV. on 8/19/10

God FOREKNEW(not pre-picked or excluded) who shall be Saved & who won't - ShawnMT

Im actually kinda surprised to hear you say this Shawn. I guess I had you wrong. I thought you were a 5 point Calvinist.
---JackB on 8/18/10

Dan, There is another person that I know of, that does the same thing. Just to make the other look bad.
---Bob on 8/18/10

Gotta idea for ya,Robert. Lets all use scripture instead of opinion,won't get our feeling hurt and will learn something in process.

Sharing news/truth is commendable if it is truth. Two+ scriptural witnesses testify for each other negating any opinion.
Christians/denom's/doctrines that won't accept multi scripture witnesses/truth, want to hear what they want to hear. They get ruffled somewhat....appropriately/revealingly by scripture witnessing scripture.
2 Corinthians 13:1
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
---Trav on 8/19/10

I do not believe that God chose anyone from the foundation of the world except for Christ.
Verse 23 in Acts says that.
God knows who will accept him and who won't but he did not choose for them before hand.
I think that God chose them to be conformed to the image of Christ who was predestined from the beginning to Come.
You may get angry at me for believing this way.
The Plan talked about is God sending his son and those who believe will be saved and those who don't, well you know the outcome.
God knowing everything does not mean he sticks his hand into everything. God knowing does not mean he chose.
---ginger on 8/19/10

Jack B, have you forgotten what you quoted before? That lost man cannot do anything without the love of God coming to him first. Otherwise he could do nothing? Hello? You spoke those kind of words. Now you are contradicting what you have said.
I am not the word of God Jack, I present it to you. You just do not understand it and so you reject it, not that you don't want to, but you cannot. We do not convert anyone. You said the methods man uses to convert others determines who will be saved and who will not. That is not true, the Gospel converts others. There is no methods that anyone can use to convert anyone. God converts them by His Word. His Word brings faith. And He does not bring it to everyone when they hear it.
---MarkV. on 8/19/10

-- Ginger :

Do you think that God sets the outcome for the choices that we make?--Ginger

Sister, Do you Believe Eph.1:11 when it stated "We have obtained an Inheritance, being Predestinated According to the Purpose of Him Who Worketh all things after the Counsel of His Own Will"

God FOREKNEW(not pre-picked or excluded) who shall be Saved & who won't BTFOTW when He Chose to Predestine His Create. Eph.1:4-14,Rom.8:28-30,1Peter 1:2

... So, Yes to your question!!!

Ginger, You sound like you want to ask a question but you're not asking it. So :-) Again, Specifically what of Acts 2:38 are you wondering about, b/c it appears straight forward to me?
---ShawnM.T. on 8/18/10

I think its safe to say that we're at a stalemate Mark because our 2 Bibles simple dont say the same thing.

Did you ever research Calvin and Augustine?
---JackB on 8/18/10

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The predestination plan, do you think God is also talking about the consequences for the choices we make?
I say this because he knows the beginning and the end of everything.

Do you think that God sets the outcome for the choices that we make?

That is what I am seeing anyways.. Maybe I am wrong?

I am also wondering the way Peter presented the steps for salvation...Hearing(which is the drawing of God), then presented with the choice, belief or unbelief, then HG takes up residents inside us if we believe.

Do I sound confused??LOL
---ginger on 8/18/10

like argue against God - MarkV
I actually laughed at this. Attention please! Mark is now the sole speaker for the Lord! Do not disagree with him!

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves, if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Jude 1:22,23 tell us to use compassion on some and fear on others

Did it ever occur to you that the method we use to convert different men determines whether or not they will accept Christ? If it didnt the Holy Ghost wouldnt tell us to use different methods for different types of men.
---JackB on 8/18/10

-- Ginger :

Sister, I read in Acts 2:23 of the 'King James Version' "being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" but in essence the same as delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God which you shared.

Ginger, While I see all that you have shared, could you be specific in what has pricked your Heart : b/c I do see where Peter says "Repent and be Baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall Receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost." in Acts 2:38 as the answer for the question of What shall we do? asked by everyone from Acts 2:37 who Heard the Word & was pricked in their Heart.
---Shawn.M.T on 8/18/10

Dan, I get where you are coming from. There is another person that I know of, that does the same thing. Just to make the other look bad. I know many do not have the same theology as the others, but when it comes to conduct, if they are saved, or regenerated by the Spirit, their fruits should be good ones not bad ones. So many have a lot to give in teaching, and we can do better to learn from others. Sharing the good news to others is our duty, not the bad news.
---Bob on 8/18/10

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Shawn, no problem, we can move on. I hate to see that when someone here does not agree with another, they hunt them on every blog. You know their intentions are not godly. No true believer who has the love of Christ in them, will wake up each morning to hunt someone they do not like. That is the work of the enemy. I'm moving on.
---Dan on 8/18/10

Shawn, what do you make of these 2 verses following after the fulfillment of this particular prophecy?

Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the
predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Acts2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It is something to me that the word plan is used here and then Peter goes on to say that they should repent and recieve Jesus then they will receive the Holy Ghost.
Are you seeing what I see here?
---ginger on 8/18/10

Jack B, Even though you are free to do things, like argue against God, you are kept blind from the Spiritual things of God. That is why you cannot understand.
1. "The natural person (the lost) does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, (now listen to this) and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discern" 1 Cor. 2:14. Here we are told not that he doesn't want to, but that he is not able to understand them.
2. "For the mind that is set on the flesh, (the lost are the flesh) is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God" again God says, it cannot. which means not able.
---MarkV. on 8/18/10

Jack B. 2:
Before sinners are born into God's Kingdom through the regenerating power of the Spirit, they are children of the devil and under his control, they are slaves of sin.
1. "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires" John 8:44. Your will God says, is to do your fathers desires.
2. " God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will" 2 Tim. 2:25-26. you think you are doing your own free will, but God says, you are doing the will of the devil while lost.
Do you need more prove?
---MarkV. on 8/18/10

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I love how you stopped there because it fit "total depravity"

YOU didnt continue reading...

Deut 29:29

"The secret things belong unto the LORD our God BUT those things which ARE revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever (here comes the good part) that we may do all the words of this law"

This is why he tells them later in 30:11

"For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off"

What I find utterly amazing is that every version of the Bible Ive read so far are ALL in agreement with this interpretation.
---JackB on 8/18/10

Im still waiting for scripture stating that all men are too depraved to follow Gods laws or to believe in his promises.
---JackB on 8/17/10

Deut 30:11-14 refers to the gospel. That doesn't mean they could believe it or follow it. All it meant is that they heard it. But chapter 30 follows chapter 29, and Moses had just told them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders, "yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day." (Deut. 29:2-4). You needed to read chap. 29 before 30. As you can see they saw a lot, and understood nothing of God. God had not given them spiritual eyes, spiritual ears, and a heart to perceive.
---MarkV. on 8/17/10

Jack B, 2: Now for Romans 10:6-13, I want you to look at verse 9. Here you will find a question is ask. The question is "If" Now read the whole passages.
That "if" you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe with your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (and get this) For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
So what is the question? "IF" And what if not? there is no salvation. All it is asking is "if" they believe with their heart. It doesn't say they can.
---MarkV. on 8/17/10

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Im still waiting for scripture stating that all men are too depraved to follow Gods laws or to believe in his promises.

Deut 30:11-14 AND Romans 10:6-13 teach differently.

They teach just as man had the ability to follow the commandments, he also has the ability to show faith in Christ.

Its not something that comes to us from heaven or the deep. God gave us the ability. We are judged according to how we use that ability.
---JackB on 8/17/10

Col 1:19,27-29

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell,
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself, by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
---JackB on 8/17/10

-- Ginger & Dan :

Brethren, I say lets retire from this discussion of who didn't Hear whom correctly and everything that transpired after it, b/c in the end it shall only Glorify the Lord if we have Ears to Hear, and in order to Hear we have to be willing to listen which it is very clear that those who are not here can not...

Let us continue to share Peacefully more of the Lord's Word through other threads so that we may once again find ourselves of 'One Accord' in the Understanding of His Grace!!!

I know Ginger can agree to Forgive & move forward in Peace b/c she stated as much in another thread.... So, What do you say Dan to shaking the dust of past threads off our feet!?!
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/17/10

Shawn, thats not what I read.
I saw where she revealed her conversation that she had with God when she asked.

I believe she was upset because you said she had those things in her heart.

I believe that was what she was addressing not the foreknowledge of God.
I don't see where she continued to argue with you on that.

Dan, Shawn should apologize for his accusations of the things in miche heart that I don't believe were there.
Of course I love Shawn. He and I go way back.
If I say something to someone I should not, I expect a rebuke from him. He has before(smiling) and I certainly accepted.
So, where am I being a hypocrite?
---ginger on 8/16/10

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Shawn I did not see where she even speculated on God's word.
She presented all her questions to God.

The Bible tells us to always consult God on all things no matter how small the question.

Speculation is certainly different than asking God Shawn.

Speculation would be to make an ssumption about God without asking him.
I don't believe she did that. At least from her posts I don't.
I think you assumed she speculated.
---ginger on 8/16/10

Ginger, that was pretty hypocritical of you, now you want to sound like you love brother Shawn and love what he says, pretty far from what you said you were going to do, and follow him everywhere until he apologizes. You wanted to make sure you took credit for what you were about to do. Who is doing the hunting here? As someone said in another blog, "pick up your cross and follow Christ."
---Dan on 8/16/10

-- Ginger :

I believe if she asked God with those things in her heart... She would have still argued.--Ginger

Sister, I Believe so as well! Go back to that Blog and read at least my last three post. You'll find the Understanding & resolve of this matter :-)

BTW~Take note that despite Miche's response of SAYING she now believes God's Foreknowledge would never change, Miche revealed her true fruits by continuing to still argue & defend that nothing is wrong with the contradictory speculation of God's Word : which in essence is speaking against God's Foreknowledge never changing.... we shall know them by their fruits. Also Miche never denied what was proclaimed to be in her heart, Now did she?... No she did not!
---ShawnM.T. on 8/16/10

Dan, exactly what are you trying to correct me for?
I have not sinned against you nor Shawn.
I have not sinned against miche either.

So, tell me, brother, what you are correcting me for?

I told you that you were wrong and you should apologize.
I did not call you names or falsely accuse you.

You can call me what you want and I will still forgive you for it and still tell you that you are wrong and you should, according to God, apologize or be ostracized. I pray more witnesses will come forward that you might be rebuked and shown your mistake. Maybe then you will apologize to her.
I will continue to pray for you until God opens you eyes.
---ginger on 8/16/10

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Joel 2:28,
"And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh"
The correct interpretation in the context is "your sons and daughters" "all flesh best refers to the house of Israel only. Because the rest of "The nations are the recipients of God's wrath, not the infusion of His Spirit" quoted later in 3:2 when the writer says,
"I will also gather all nations, and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat, And I will enter into judgment with them there on account of My people, My heritage Israel" God will not give His Spirit to those who are going to be Judge. Only those chosen by God will receive His Spirit.
---MarkV. on 8/16/10

Shawn, Brother, Ive been following and you have posted some great teaching.
Thats not what Im having trouble with.
Please understand that you judged miche on what was in her when she asked God about the foreknowledge of prayer.
That brother was wrong.
I read what she posted and what you posted.
You should not go around saying things like that because you don't know what was in her when she asked God.
I believe if she asked God with those things in her heart, you and her would not have come to one accord or spirit. She would have still argued. But brother, God showed her you were right.
So, how could she have had those things in her spirit if God showed her you were right?
And I am not sure where Dan is coming from.
---ginger on 8/15/10


I am not the one on here that is sick. I am not the one calling people names and accusing them of having things in their spirit that aren't there.
Shawn is a great teacher, wonderful in fact.
You on the other hand are jumping from one blog to another and kicking christians when they are down. That is not right and I call it as I see it. Shawn will tell you that.
I don't usually even say much at all. But I read and it is just shameful that you did to miche what you did to her.
So, who is the one here that needs correction? Not me. Maybe you need to go back to the mirror. As for me I stay in it everyday to make sure I am right with God instead of pointing fingers at someone else.
---ginger on 8/15/10

Ginger, there is a few of you who are really sick and in great need of medical help from the real Doctor, Jesus Christ. No one can do that kind of medical surgery, you and her cannot cure yourselves, it takes for God to come into your heart and heal you. Remove all that is bad so that when you speak you speak for Christ and not for yourselves. You speak of God all the time, but it is your prides that you more worried about. You threw the first stone. And If I am not mistaken you are someone else hiding behind another name for support, but today and always, you cannot hide from God.
---Dan on 8/15/10

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Ginger, did anyone tell you, that when you speak about what you are going to do, that your describing what a wolve would do? wolves try to surround their prey for the kill. You are trying to kill the messenger of God with your mouth. It will have no effect on the Truth. Your words are like Miche, speaking for Miche. Very good trick. Not good enough, others do that many times I suppose it's your turn. You've gone from bad to worse. And yes, I'm judging your actions after first trying to correct you.
---Dan on 8/15/10

-- Ginger :

Ginger, whoever you are~Dan

You accuse me of spreading rumors... Well ye with out sin cast the first stone~Ginger

Sister, It's Good you're following all I'm sharing of the Lord's Gospel. I pray you Hear & Receive that just b/c you see others spreading rumors, doesn't make John 8:7 a defense for you to continue to do it as well.

Honestly Ginger, I as well don't even know or remember who you are, but that's beside the point.... Learn to depart in Peace by Forgiving as I have Miche for all she has falsely accused of me... so we may come into 'One Accord' in the Lord when we meet again, b/c the pride causing you to hound others until you see what you believe is an apology, will only feed on your soul.
---Shawn.M.T on 8/15/10

No Dan, sshe is not wrong.

And I will follow Shawn(he knows who I am) until he apologizes to her.
Do you think if she had the things in her heart that Shawn said she did in the other blog, she would have thanked him and asked him for more answers?
So who is the wrong one here. Certainly not her and certainly not me.

You accuse me of spreading rumors and jumping from one blog to the other, Well ye with out sin cast the first stone.
You did it,/b>, so I corrected you for it.
And so did Shawn. Instead of answering her questions, he jumped all over her again.
Both of you need to apologize to her.
Brother, take the correction and move on.
---ginger on 8/15/10

It is this prophecy for which Joel has become most famous in modern days. FULFILLED...that great and notable day, a day of judgment, to be sure, but more immediately the day of God's salvation to all who invoked His name....Outpourng of the spirit, He will move men to call on the name of the Lord. Signs and wonders in nature will be manifested in conjunction with the outpouring of the spirit, indicates that salvation or deliverance, from the day of the Lord will be possible. Dreams visions, it is going to be universal. Young and old even the most lowly will prophesy. This is the outpouring of the spirit....This is the preliminary to the coming of the day of the Lord. Honestly, I believe before all this happens we have a ways to go.
---catherine on 8/14/10

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-- Ginger :

how many times does a person have to apologize--Ginger

Sister, Why are you careering around your dirt from other threads and dragging it into this and others. Lay down your pride & learn to Shake that dust off your feet Ginger, so you may leave each thread in Peace!!!

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---ShawnM.T. on 8/14/10

Ginger, whoever you are, Miche on 8/12 thank Shawn for his answer and even asked him another question, and before Shawn even answered her, she posted again 8/13 to Richard, and in her answer to him she talked bad about Shawn, that he was speaking false and calling her all kinds of stuff, and then she complains that Christianet should be more careful about others when so many times it is her who is doing the damage. No Ginger, you are wrong and she is very wrong.
---Dan on 8/14/10

"What is God talking about here?"
Miche3754, it is just as it is written. As you have quoted, Joel 2:28 was fulfilled in Acts 2:17, as verified in verse 16.
---Josef on 8/14/10

Dan, how is miche spread gossip when what she said was 100% truth?

We even have a blog about the problems she addressed.

Don't you know that it is wrong to falsely accuse?

You should lay down your pride and pick up your cross and ask the Holy Spirit to really open your eyes, brother. Because right now you are blind. She has been hurt by Shawn's mistatement about her having the things of Eve in her. And he still has not apologized for that wrong even when he knows he should.

Shawn, how many times does a person have to apologize for to see, brother?
False accusations again, because she has apologized for her assumptions of other people.

Oh, I agree with what you told her on the description of this verse.
---ginger on 8/14/10

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Miche, you are everywhere spreading gossip. do you not believe that spreading gossip is wrong? And that causing division is wrong? Stick to the Truth. You have been learning too much from Kathr you are sounding just like her? Pick up your cross and follow Christ. Do not follow Kathr.
---Dan on 8/13/10

-- Miche3754 :

It is difficult to portray love in just words here on this site... sometimes in these blogs things can be misunderstood---Miche3754 on 8/10/10

Sister, Remember your words before making accusation about someone being false just b/c you're unable to feel their Love.... and through misunderstanding, only see all sorts of what not somewhere else !!!!!

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---Shawn.M.T on 8/13/10


It's sad so many people are so full of themselves, and so certain of the superiority of their own wisdom that they insult anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Such people give Christianity a bad name. Romans 2:24:
"As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.""

As far as going off topic, what often happens is someone mentions something in passing that others take issue with, so they challenge it (I often do this myself), then that side-issue gets argued to death.

Incidentally, this very thing happened in Jerusalem: In Acts 23, when Paul spoke before the Sanhedrin, he diverted the discussion by saying it was all about the resurrection of the dead.
---StrongAxe on 8/13/10

Ernest, I am sorry but I don't know what you are talking about.

Richard, it says all flesh not elect.
Everyone please, why are talking about the rapture?

I can see why people leave this site or won't ask questions. No one sticks to the subject. People insult you when they have no reason to. Tell you aren't saved that you are guilty of something that is NOT true. The moderators really need to set rules boundaries and limitations.
The only person who answered me was Shawn.
And he is false because he shows me love here yet calls all sorts of what not somewhere else.
Real Christians don't do that.

All I can say is ya'll won't hear from me for a while if I even come back.
---miche3754 on 8/13/10

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The problem with the "secret rapture" is that it directly contradicts "every eye shall see him". Nice theory, but it can't work.
---StrongAxe on 8/12/10

---1st_cliff on 8/10/10

Bless you brother-
Yehovahs' Love prevails...
---char on 8/13/10

MICHE 3757 --- THE way I got that is ALL of GODS elect
JOHN 6,37 ALL that the father giveth me shall come to me,and him that cometh to me I will in no way cast out.
---RICHARD on 8/12/10


It is those who believe in the Secret Rapture that believe that Jesus is returning invisibly. Seventh-day Adventists on the other hand emphasise a literal, visible appearing and they included it in their denominational name accordingly.
---Ernest_1 on 8/12/10

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Thank you, Shawn for that confirmation. I can't even say how many times that I was told I was wrong about having that view of that scripture. I have seen it coincide with other scripture as well. Would you say this happened when Christ gave up the ghost on the cross? if, when would you say this outpouring of spirit happened? I am also wondering if this happened when Christ was resurrected. If you do not mind, can you give me some other scripture that would point to when this event happened? Could have happened at pentecost or at the times I have asked? Again thank you and God bless you, Shawn. I await your answers.
---miche3754 on 8/12/10

-- Miche :

Sister, YES, The Spirit of God has been poured out UPON all flesh. Not to be mistaken for FILLED WITH/IN all flesh !!!

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied :-)
---ShawnM.T. on 8/12/10

I am just wondering if any of you are going to address the fact that God poured out his spirit on all flesh?

That was why I asked the questions.

Do you think he meant all flesh literally or just to those who accepted Christ?
---miche3754 on 8/12/10


Yes. They willingly admit that the "light" in the past was imperfect, but they simultaneously belive that the "light" they have right now is indisputable (even though it will inevitably be shown to be wrong a few years hence).

One of the things about the whole "returning invisibly" theory that they believe (and the Seventh Day Adventists believe something similar) is that it contradicts "every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7). When Jesus comes back, we will ALL know it without any dispute.
---StrongAxe on 8/11/10

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One of their major differences is the belief that Jesus returned (invisibly) in 1914 CE .What many witnesses of today don't know is that they first believed Jesus returned in 1884CE then changed it to 1914.
For many, many years they said the generation of 1914-1918 would by no means pass away before Armageddon!The "generation" (20 to 40 year olds) are long since gone,I don't know how they explain that today! My mother's generation,she died 4 years ago at 104!cont..
---1st_cliff on 8/11/10

#2.. Earlier on they believed the pyramid of Giza in Egypt was, as they called it, "the great stone witness" was a source of prophecy,especially the mathematical parts,length width etc.. They abandoned that idea as they have many other "new truths" Like the house in San Diego called Beth Sarim where the resurrected saints would live..etc. on the rare occasion when my younger brother spoke to me, I asked about these failed endeavours,he said "Well the light gets brighter and brighter as time goes on." Yep!..cont.
---1st_cliff on 8/11/10

#3..I called my older brother on his 80th birthday (not to upset him) just to ask "How does it feel to be 80?" he said "call me again in another 80 years" and hung up in my ear!
They celebrate no calender events except wedding anniversaries. If you're not married it's Zippo for you!
They say "we give from the heart not the calender" My brother has never given mom and dad a single thing in 40 years, So much for that idea,huh?
---1st_cliff on 8/11/10

Cliff, thank you for your reply. I am glad you understood I meant what I said.

I can understand that you are now 'gun shy' but as they say "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.' I have no denominational material to sell you or denominational advice to give you. However what I do ask is that you would allow God to lead and enlighten you from His word, via prayer. Sounds easy but it is not, but it works in His timing.

I am heading off for some more car racing today but am sure we will be in contact when I return. Your loss and suffering has deeply affected me. I will take the liberty of praying for you today, and tomorrow...

God bless!
---Warwick on 8/11/10

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One of the first major red flags for me was that their writings were always condemning many traditional Christian beliefs as totally arbitrary traditions of men without any scriptural authority, yet many of their own teachings were exactly the same thing.
---StrongAxe on 8/11/10

Cliff please contact me at elder2291.
---Elder on 8/11/10

Warwick, Thanks for your tenderness, you can see from my posts that I'm gun shy and suspect all religions.
When you study with the JWs you begin to lose your "worldly" friends and embrace only witness friends. Everything is "truth"IE "How long have you been in the truth?",truth weddings,truth picnics etc,'till the word is etched in the brain!
After many years you have no friends on the "outside" then disfellowshipped you have no friends period. Oh but you can go back on your knees for a "probation" period! cont..
---1st_cliff on 8/11/10

#2 What bothered me early was the double standards,like they don't vote even in local municipal elections,for street improvement and the like, but when a question of paving the parking lot of the Kingdom Hall was proposed they asked for a"show of hands" (same thing)Right?
They don't vote in state (provincial) or federal election,(the devil's organization) but ,as with some of my relatives, are on "Social Assistance" The "devil's organization" supplies their medical,housing,food needs etc..They have no hesitation in accepting this!Even tho many have never contributed financially to anything!
---1st_cliff on 8/11/10

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Cliff your last blog brought tears to my eyes. I am sincerely sorry that you have had this awful experience with the JW's, and continue to suffer because of them.

I have not experienced such pain directly but through similar experiences of others.

I blog here against JW's, not because I hate them, but because I know that some things they teach are evil, and that the organization is corrupt. I don't want anyone to suffer the hurt and separation which continues in your life.

May God bless you and bring His solution to this very real problem. I hope you don't mind if I pray for you.
---Warwick on 8/10/10

1st Cliff,

I am so glad that you have not lost your faith in God. Most Witnesses are wonderful, sincere people but very programmed by a cruel Watchtower Society that has broken up countless homes and families.

No organization has made more false prophecies than the WTS.

In Matthew 24:23,24 Jesus warned us in the last days of those who would say "Here is Christ" (since 1914) and be false prophets.

Who else fits this description but the Watchtower Society?
---Ernest_1 on 8/10/10

Anon, (whoever you are) I was a JW for 22years and was disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for "resigning" I resigned over Prophecy issues,and was promptly turfed, much like being fired after you quit! 2 brothers and a daughter haven't spoken to me in more than 30 years!
They have a warped view of love!
They have destroyed my family.
My son started studying with them 2 1/2 years ago, I said " You're making a big mistake' and he hasn't spoken to me since.
We were very close!
I agree with some of their doctrines ,but the organization sucks IMHO!
---1st_cliff on 8/10/10


The problem is, how can they know whether or not the dreams are actually from God, or from another less savory source, or perhaps even from indigestion?
---StrongAxe on 8/10/10

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This shows us that we today men & women can still recieve dreams from God whether it is a vision or prophetic, however we should also test the spirits. Since 2003 God has shown me his son 3x's from July 2003-Sept 2004. Since 2000 he has brought in 2 angels in my dreams in 2000 & in 2006 about 2 of my boys before they were thought of.So yes God does use dreams today,again no matter if a man or a woman!
---Candice on 8/10/10

1st cliff- I didn't realize you were a Jehovah Witness? No? Yes? Your response seems to point that way.

How long have you been in the wrong Kingdom? LOL (kidding).
---anon on 8/10/10

I asked one of the Elders of our local Kingdom Hall "Bob, when the Elders sit around the table, up on the 5th floor of 124 Columbia Hts.(Brooklyn,NY) to discuss what goes into the Watchtower, how does Jehovah contact them ?"
He answered, "Dreams!"
---1st_cliff on 8/9/10

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