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Sanctification Or Salvation

What are your thoughts on the passage in Matthew 7:16-20, "Ye shall know them by their fruits...?" If a person "claims" to be a Christian, and still uses coarse, foul language, would you believe that person was truly saved? Would you say anything to them?

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 ---tommy3007 on 8/12/10
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Cluny, more dissing? You wasted another day.
---Eloy on 8/29/10

That is so funny. I knew that. I finished high school.
---catherine on 8/28/10

Catherine // Well, there ain't none of us perfect!//

Grammatically, Catherine, your double negative means that we are all perfect.
---Pedant on 8/28/10

\\And Satan's children are sinuous, even as he is sinuous.\\

Do you think that "sinuous" is a synonym for "sinful," Eloy?

It's not.

One of its meanings is "lithe and graceful".

So it looks like you're not perfect, Eloy. And according to your own definition, you know what THAT means!
---Cluny on 8/28/10

God's children are perfect, even as he is perfect: And Satan's children are sinuous, even as he is sinuous.
---Eloy on 8/28/10

Well, there ain't none of us perfect!
---catherine on 8/27/10

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self-control.
---John on 8/26/10

John, brother, you better work on your patience seemed a little hostile

2 Pet 1:5-8 "Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ"
---Mark_Eaton on 8/27/10


As I posted so many times. I never cease to be amazed on just how ignorant Christians are of their faith. Willful ignorance since many have intelligence.

The question is erroneous because its premise is false. The questioner (and apparently people posting) does not know what the fruits of the spirit even are. So he confuses worldy fruits with the Truth. It is why you have so many confusing posts.

GAL 5:22,23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self-control.
---John on 8/26/10

Jas1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Vain means empty.
If you are truly his friend:
Jas5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error ...---trey on 8/24/10

Trey,name the horse you are speaking too.

Don't be afraid of vainity's of Marks post. Or anyones for that matter....if their scripture witness is "vain" empty,...unwitnessed by pre-approved scripture makers.
Titus 1:13
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
Titus 2:15
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee
---Trav on 8/25/10

Trav, God does not bring division on His own.
...and show how great a teacher you are, for your own glory.
---MarkV. on 8/25/10

Agreed. His own would not go against...his own...prophets.
I teach nothing. No claim on title. You've learned nothing,as evidence.

I point/post scriptures....that do not support your thesis/opinion/doctrines or rebuking teaching. You never even pause.

Scripture is who you are angry at. Me,for noticing.

Visualize.... getting mad at OT/NT prophets/apostles.
Adding too or taking away from their multitude of "witnessing each other" statements is mucho Dangerous. Hablas?
---Trav on 8/25/10

Trav, the Word of God does divide the ones who are lost with the ones who are saved, but God does not bring division on His own. So all your witnesses cannot stand with your foolish answer. You tried to show that He came with a sword to divide His people and bring disorder by giving that passage, but He is the Prince of Peace, The God of peace, and hundreds of witnesses speak on that peace of God against your interpretation.
It was your haste to discredit what I said, you looked for things to find that would bring division between us, and show how great a teacher you are, for your own glory. Nothing new to me. I heard that before from you and I know it will not be the last one. That is your nature. Nothing has changed.
---MarkV. on 8/25/10

Jas1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

The word vain there means empty.

If you are truly his friend:
Jas5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
---trey on 8/24/10

Trav, Ps. 29"11, "The Lord blesses His people with peace"
---MarkV. on 8/24/10

The above "his people", is a significant example. His people,(sheep,Bereans,Israel), know to test "opinion","doctrine" by test of scripture. "His People", trust chosen prophets/apostles testifying.
While you have the desire to teach, you are tutored under the "commentary doctrines of men",rather than the hand picked by GOD.
To be against the O.T. prophets, is error. Previously ignorant of the fact. Ignorance can't be claimed now.
Witnessing scriptures are your tormenter.
So yes, the sword/word of GOD divides, opinions unsupported by the sword of scripture.
---Trav on 8/24/10

Trav, to discredit what I wrote, you purposely quoted a passage in Scripture in which you imply that Christ did not come to bring peace, that He came with a sword to divide His own, by quoting a passage in Matthew completely out of Context. You are blaming the Prince of Peace of bringing disorder with His sword. 1 Cor. 14:33 "For God is not the author of disorder but of peace" Ps. 29"11, "The Lord blesses His people with peace" Isa. 9:6, "Everlasting Father, Prince of peace" Eph. 2:14, "He Himself is our peace" and you say you have witnesses.
If you notice, in my answer that you opposed I said, sinful people divide not God, which is what you are doing.
---MarkV. on 8/24/10

I would say something, Tommy.

It is our duty to point out sin to our brother. He may not even know about this sin yet. You may need to show him the passage (Eph 5:4) and read it through with him. But be prepared for resistance. Proverbs says a rebuke is more effective for a wise man but still do it lightly with love and respect. Just remember, it could be you on the receiving end next time, so do unto him as you want him to do unto you.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/22/10

I looked up sanctification>>>I would rather avoid them, if that's impossible, then I would ask them to please not talk like that. I might be more abrupt than that. Or be simple like I just stated before, all depends. I would quickly pray about it. Here is what I found>>>Christ's crucifixion makes possible the moving of the sinner from the profane to the holy, so that the believer can become a part of the temple where God dwells and is worshiped [Heb. 13:11-16]. The holy spirit is at work in conversion as a Sanctification making the believer holy so as to ccme before God in acceptance..... Do you really love your life of sin? I am asking all unbelievers this qestion.
---catherine on 8/22/10

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To understand the context, please read Matthew 3:8-10, 7:13-27. While those verses do compare the saved to the unsaved, verses 15-20 should cause us to examine a religious teachers character, doctrine, and if his work has value (which can be resolved by the Bible!), Acts 17:11. As to language, perhaps, the following verses apply: Matthew 12:36 - idle word, 1Corinthians 6:12, 20 - glorify, Ephesians 4:29 - corrupt communication, 5:4 (!), 1Thessalonians 5:22 - abstain, and Proverbs 15:4 / James 1:26 - the tongue. You could probably fit in Romans 14 as well. Though, "What would Jesus do". Deservedly, he insulted the Pharisees in Matthew 23, etc.
---Glenn on 8/21/10

A Pentecostal preacher once opined that the mouth is the next to the last thing to get saved, the last being the wallet.

I think we need to make sure we don't confuse citified behavior with Christian behavior. The Amish are definitely Christians, but are hardly coy about their livestock's digestive and reproductive functions, trust me.

OTOH, I had the wonderful experience hearing an educated, cultured, articulate gentleman (in the best sense) express his faith.
---Cluny on 8/21/10

Tommy Part 2: when I said "you might not see it" I did not mean you personally, I meant people. Just wanted to make that clear brother. The last answer that Catherine gave is a very good answer to the point I was talking about. Some will produce more fruit then others, and some will produce fruit we do not see, but God does. When people are in habitual sin and it is their way of life, then we can conclude they must not be saved, but even then, we cannot be sure since only God sees the heart.
---MarkV. on 8/15/10

.... it was not God who sents you to provoke others.
God does not bring division, sinful people do.
---MarkV. on 8/14/10

When you post unsupported scripture .....I'll post multiple scriptural witnesses rebuking.
Through scripture, even you might see or hear. So far not....but, the sheep may.

You are sincere in desire, but desiring to be a teacher.... you do not not what you are teaching.
You, tell many they are wrong....but, cannot show scriptural witnesses that support you mouth.
Therefore let scripture rebuke you before GOD and man.
GOD does bring division,between truth and untruth.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
---Trav on 8/15/10

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Tommy, concerning Mattew 7:16-20 the context demands that the people talked about here are false prophets (v. 15). And the believer is warned to watch out for them who come to us as holy religious people but are really wolves in sheeps clothing. False doctrine cannot restrain the flesh, so false prophets manifest wickedness (2 Peter 2:12-22). Jesus was saying that true faith will not fail to produce the fruit of good works, these is precisely the point in James 1:22-25, 2:26). Every good tree produces good fruit. You might not see it from your point of view, because the fruit he produces might be something he does that you do not know about, and that only God can see.
---MarkV. on 8/14/10

If you are a true Christian take heart, I know I have, for you can not help but to bear good fruit, however, some will bear more than others. We are only as good as God makes us....An unfruitful life is a picture of an unregenerate heart which is cast in the fire, here, speaking of hell. The changed life is the proof of one's profession of conversion [2 Corin. 5:17].
---catherine on 8/14/10

The passage is clear, you will know the Christian from the nonChristian by their words and their actions, for the tree is known by the fruit that it bears, whether they are good or rotten.
---Eloy on 8/14/10

"I do pray for Cuny's salvation. Is there anyone else on here who would like the prayers from one of God's own for salvation?"

Catherine, with all due respect, may I pray for you? You hear voices in her head, a deity claiming to be God and telling you want to do. This "deity" told you to stop attending church services and stay home, be a nice little Christian, and only communicate and fellowship with him or her, literally.

And now, you are saying Cluny is not saved. Did the voices in your head told you so?

I will pray for you and hope you stop talking to demonic forces.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/13/10

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our nature changes in an instant we are born of imperishable seed - but how we act and react to things takes time, teaching, learning , growing , etc. , you can show him and then its his choice
---lolita on 8/13/10

I have no doubts about Cluny's salvation. Salvation is entirely God's doing. In any case, Cluny is a believer and thus saved. 1.Tim.4.10
---ger.toshav on 8/13/10

I do pray for Cuny's salvation. Is there anyone else on here who would like the prayers from one of God's own for salvation? Speak up now and forever hold your peace. Amen.
---catherine on 8/13/10 you not know if you are saved or not?
---JIM on 8/13/10

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James says the tongue is a fire and "These things should not be" cussing and blessing should not come out of the same mouth.

They could be saved, but have not gone through sanctification. Sanctification is the purification process - the process where the Holy Spirit refines us, correct us, trains us not to speak cuss words, no course jesting.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks - and if the heart isn't changing, the cussing won't change...amen?
---Donna5535 on 8/13/10

Excellent question: I would talk to them about Matthew seven 16-20 and ask them what their opinion is concerning these verses. When a person is a Christian reasonable thinking about the Scriptures is usually something they will agree with.
I would be very reluctant to tell them they were not saved. I know many good Christian people violently disagree with me about various things in life but about the Scriptures we normally can find harmony. Again excellent question!
---mima on 8/13/10

Cluny, I have some doubts about Martin Luther, who advocated genocide when Jews refused to become his brand of Christian...
---ger.toshav on 8/12/10

Was St. Peter truly saved? If so, when? Seems the Gospels record that during Christ's trial, he began to curse and swear. (He was a sea-faring man, after all!)

St. Paul was not above using a salty expression or two himself.

Martin Luther is known for his barnyard and even scatological expressions in his polemical works.

Were they saved?
---Cluny on 8/12/10

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I have a feeling that there was so very strong Aramaic used when Jesus ran the money changers and the animal sacrifice sellers out of the temple courts yards.

He had a hand made whip and seemed to know how to use it quite effectively.

This is an outstanding example of righteous indignation turning into positive action.
---Friendly_Blogger on 8/12/10

Salvation & Sanctification work together, like hand in glove.
---Lawrence on 8/12/10

Well....I have come across this before with people. i on occasion slip up by accident...but someone purposley speaking with a foul tounge, I would have to say if you are close with that person to have a LOVEing conversation about how they could be affecting their own walk badly as well as other new belivers. But, we must not judge, cause this person may at the time have a dirty mouth,but someonre else could have something going on that isnt so noticeable, at least all but the Lord ect. So I will pray for whoever is having this issue, and hope I get prayer for all my junk so to love in Christ
---Jennifer on 8/12/10

If people are living evil lives, it would be hard to see them as believers. But as to their ultimate salvation, it's a done deal according to 1.Tim.4:10.
---ger.toshav on 8/12/10

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