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Worship In Spirit And Truth

What does it mean to worship in "Spirit and in Truth"?

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 ---catherine on 11/27/10
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I was lead to god because i found a copy of the Torah and Gospels bound together,,
Where do i stand in the community of the believers as i was called outside of the visible church.?
---Darren_Reynolds on 12/7/10

And MarkV, scripture ALONE says Whosoever Will.
---kathr4453 on 12/7/10

To my understanding this would be..

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
-Holy Spirit which bears fruit-
1 Corinthians 2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
The Word of God-
Jesus Christ-Emmanuel God with us.
Matt 1:1-25
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
---char on 12/7/10

markv, APOSTATES have never identified with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life!

APOSTATES do not use Sola Scriptura, or Scripture Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that the Bible alone is the sole authority for all matters of faith and practice. Scripture and Scripture alone is the standard by which all teachings and doctrines of the church must be measured.

Sola and Calvinism do not MIX. Calvin did not teach identification!!! Scripture DOES!
---kathr4453 on 12/7/10

Kathr keep going further into apostasy,

"Here's the thing. MarkV, leej ets believe God waved his magic wand giving New life walla."

What does Scripture tell us about someone who denies the Father and the Son? "anyone who denies the Father and the Son is anti-Christ." 1 John 2:22. Denying that the Father and the Son bring spiritual life, is the work of the spirit of the anti-Christ. For only God can give life. Jesus said, "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will" John 5:21.
"It is the Spirit who give life, the flesh profits nothing, the words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life"
---Mark_V. on 12/7/10

---David8318 on 12/4/10

David8318, I believe in Romans 5-6 death here is our old dead man/lso adam 1 who died, identifying with Christ in death forevermore and raised up a New Creature never to die again. Yes our bodies will die, but we have eternal life now and forever In the Risen Christ.

Here's the thing. MarkV, leej ets believe God waved his magic wand giving New life walla. However scripture teaches our New life comes to those who identify with Christ in death first.

If they apply scripture correctly, their old man, yes adam 1, does not go back under Law as a rule of thumb, nor will ever need revival. It's to be reckoned dead with Christ.
---kathr4453 on 12/6/10

To worship in Spirit and in Truth means just what it means to worship God with all of one's inner self...that invisible man within each of us, that empowers our will, emotions, desires,intellect, knowledge, affections etc....

God wants us to see Him..I mean really see Him and know Him..and because we have seen Him and we have known..He wants us to bow down to Him with the very essence,core and power of our being...His Word is truth, His Son is truth,..and in these we see God for who He really is..thus allowing us to worship Him in spirit and truth.
---L_Will on 12/6/10

Kathr4453 you are right in that not all were beheaded because it does list those who didn't take the Mark of the Beast or worship his image unless beheading is going to be done to those also.
---Darlene_1 on 12/6/10

Kathr4453 Revelation 20:4 -and I saw the souls of them who were "Beheaded for the witness of Jesus" and for the Word of God-. This verse does not have "and" those who have the witness of Christ,the beheading was for the witness of Jesus,and the Word of God,and etc. in their lives that they were willing to die for him. That was all one sentence If you have Book,Chapter,and verse showing what I understnd you to be saying,just the witness will put one in the thousand year reign,I will be delighted to study it. I went through the whole New Testement searching the word witness and I did not find it the way you state it anywhere.
---Darlene_1 on 12/5/10

David8318, I believe you should start again with Scripture and leave behind all of your bias's and pray that God will reveal the Truth to you, and you will see a different plan then the one you have formed in your mind. Though there is a few passages that we might not understand completely, the whole picture of the plan of God is before us. From the fall, (which is Adam's disobedience) fall from the Grace that God had given him, to Revelation. Man died spiritually at the fall, and are separated from God. And laws are given to those people and under the law if they broke one, they broke them all so no one could keep the law for all sin. Those people are condemned and are heading to hell, in great need of an Atonement, who is Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 12/5/10

David, you insist in discussing this subject and you say,
'Sinners are 'acquitted' at death (Ro.6:7)". If sinners are acquitted at death that means everyone is saved. That is universal salvation. Then you say some won't. And say some sins are not forgiven. Your theology is so mixed up. First of all, all descendants of Adam are already heading to hell because they have all been condemned already. They are in great need of a Savior to save them from that judgment of wrath. The only sin that is not forgiven is rejection of Christ. All without Christ are under the law, if they break one, they have broken them all. And let me say, there is a Great White Throne of Judgment for all those who remained under the Law who rejected Christ.
---Mark_V. on 12/4/10

Kathr4453- Again I agree mankind 'died' in what you term- 'the fall'. Have you ever wondered what Adam 'fell' from? This helps to understand what Romans chapters 5 and 6 teach. Romans 5-6 do not teach that we 'die again' as you put it, but rather it teaches why we die in the first place, and what God has done to provide salvation out of that 'fall'.

Adam experienced a 'fall' from perfect life into sin and imperfection. As Romans 5:12 tells us because of that 'fall', sin and death spread to all men. The anointed 'born again' class (144,000) share in the '1st resurrection over which 2nd death has no authority' (Rev.20:6). The rest of the 'dead' (mankind from the 'fall') do not come to life until end of Christ's 1000yr reign (Rev.20:5).
---David8318 on 12/4/10

From what I understand of this it is only the martyrs who are to be in the 1000 years reign. It appears the rest of us will have to wait for the second resurrection.
---Darlene_1 on 12/3/10

Darlene!, Blessed are those who ahve part of teh First resurrection. Those beheaded as was Paul will reign and rule with Christ during the 1000 year reign. It is a PROMISE to those who ocercome written twice in the 7 letters to the church.

Not eveyone is beheaded, notice all the ANDS...AND those who have the witness of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 12/4/10

Revelation 20:4,5 I saw thrones and they sat upon them,and judgement was given unto them,and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,and for the Word of God,and which worshipped not the beast neither his image,neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,or in their hands,and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. From what I understand of this it is only the martyrs who are to be in the 1000 years reign. It appears the rest of us will have to wait for the second resurrection.
---Darlene_1 on 12/3/10

MarkV- 'the wrath comes down' as you put it because quite frankly, you do not know what you are talking about. At best you end up contradicting yourself, confusing issues such as sin and 2nd death to which you still have not replied to my question- 'where in Romans 6:23 does it mention 2nd death?'. Best not to answer it because you'll only dig yourself further into a hole.

As for your 'universal salvation', I no longer know how you define it because as I've already said, there are sins for which Jehovah will not forgive. Ones Jehovah will not forgive will remain without a resurrection and in eternal death. Unforgivable sins are vastly different to inherited Adamic sin to which Romans 6:7 refer & to which a sinner can be 'acquitted'.
---David8318 on 12/3/10

MarkV- If you had not mentioned 'universal salvation' I would never had heard about it. I certainly don't believe all sin is forgiven at death because everyone knows there is an unforgiveable sin. Jehovah judges those committing such sins.

But what is true is that the sin at Romans 6:7 of which people are 'acquitted', is primarily the condition of Adamic sin causing death, and the manifestations of the imperfect flesh, activities done as a consequence of being sinners.

Worshipping God in 'truth' means recognising that there is no eternal punishment from God in a hell-fire. Sinners are 'acquitted' at death (Ro.6:7), the dead are 'sleeping' (Jo.11:11) and totally unconscious (Eccs.9:5,10) awaiting a resurrection (Acts 24:15).
---David8318 on 12/3/10

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David8318, sorry to disappoint you. I really didn't think for a minute you were going to respond agreeing. Or suggesting something. I knew it was to try to cut me down. What else is knew, Join Kathr and Eloy and a few more. All most of you give is your opinions. And when they disagree, the wrath comes down. And Kathr gives different meanings to passages. And she came to Christ without faith and without repentance, and no remorse. And came alive after she came to Christ without faith, wow. And you believe in Universal salvation. So you are in good company.
---Mark_V. on 12/3/10

Donna66 no I have never seen that type of behavior either. The only people I heve even heard of convulsing was when Christians were casting out demons from people. You are so right God doesn't deal with us the same nor does he do what we expect him to. I was always somewhat shy and when God anointed me with some of the utterance gifts of the Spirit where I was the focus of attention in church or meetings I was totaly surprised. I never refused,though,to trust God and obey. I must add I am still awestruck to know what God can do for the Kingdom through the most unlikely vessel when we are yielded.
---Darlene_1 on 12/3/10

Kathr4453- I agree anointed 'born again' Christians are baptized into Christ's death. I also agree '2nd death' has no authority over these anointed 'born again' ones as Rev.20:6 tells us.

Thus 'born again' Christians who share in the 'first resurrection' and over which the 2nd death has no authority MUST be different to the ones spoken of at Rev.20:12 who could be judged worthy of '2nd death' at the end of Christ's 1000yr reign over earth. The group at Rev.20:12 can't be 'born again' ones but are either survivors of Armageddon (Jo.10:16, Rev.7:14) or were 'acquitted' of Adamic sin at their death prior to Armageddon and received a resurrection back on earth- Romans 6:7.
---David8318 on 12/3/10

David let me explain further. 1st Cor 15, "Death is swallowed up in Victory, Oh death where is thy sting, is talking here about the 2nd death...HELL. No sting at all, Christ literally took the sting of death for us!

Well because we died with Christ NOW, resulting in eternal life, (Our New Birth comes again, out of the death Christ paid for us . Colossians 2.

So those who believe being Born Again is simply an enlightened moment will never understand our identification with Christ at Calvary, will never really be able to understand this awesome amazing thing....God planned from b4 the foundation of the world.
---kathr4453 on 12/3/10

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david, if you read the letter in rev, it says, those who overcome will not experience the 2nd death. The 2nd death is HELL.

We all died at the fall. we don't die again in Romans 6, it is our old dead man who identifies with Christ's death in order to be raised a new creature.

We've been baptized into HIS DEATH, not our 2nd death.

---kathr4453 on 12/3/10

david8318. Because MarkV has given new definition to Born Again he will never understand Romans 6-8.

He considers his being enlightened by the Holy Spirit who already saved him first as his Born Again experience, and therefore can't or does not need to apply Romans 6-8 in the correct context.

We're born again or quickened as teh result of first being crucified and baptized into Christ's death. He didn't have to partake of the first his way.

The Building now is CHRIST Himself as our head...

---kathr4453 on 12/3/10

MarkV- You avoid showing where in Romans 6:23 does it speak of the 2nd death? If the death you believe that 'wages sin pays' at Ro.6:23 is '2nd death' then we're all going to experience 2nd death because according to Romans 5:12- 'just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.'

So MarkV believes the sin inherited from the 'one man' (Adam) of which the 'wages of such sin pays is 2nd death'- because this death has 'spread to all men', we all suffer '2nd death'. So we're all doomed!

You haven't thought this through have you MarkV? You do not promote what is 'truth' neither do you understand what it means to be 'acquitted' of Adamic sin- Ro.6:7.
---David8318 on 12/3/10

Hello David, I gave you two examples of the passages. You did not agree, so what do you want me to do? Give you the same ones again? The same explanation? Maybe you are very smart and all that stuff and maybe you have studied very hard, but let me say there is no Universal salvation. When a person physically dies, he sins no more because he is dead. But that is not what this passages in Rom. 6:22,23 is talking about. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." This is talking about spiritual death. Separation from God. Believers are now slaves of God and have been set free from sin. (v.22).
---Mark_V. on 12/2/10

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MarkV- if you had not already noticed, but the other topic ran out of space.

However, your complete misunderstanding of Romans 6:7 and 6:23 show that you do not understand what it means to worship God in "spirit and truth".

Your inability and avoidance at answering my question is indicative of your lack of understanding.
---David8318 on 12/2/10

Darlene -- My experience was like yours. I wasn't "seeking" anything but to be closer to God. Nobody touched me and nobody else had fallen. My fall on a hard wooden floor was painless, but I heard the sound of it. Then fully awake and lying still, I worshipped God in my heart.

I've never "sought" this experience again. But it did have a powerful effect on my life (which I never expected)
It probably seemed odd to any onlooker who didn't understand it.

It was far from the noisy "convulsing" event that some describe (and sometimes I doubt this type of thing myself) But people are different. God does not deal with us identically. The Fruit of the Spirit is still the best measure of a Christian.
---Donna66 on 12/2/10

Ginger - appreciate your viewpoint however I do not see it in the dialogue between Jesus & Nicodemus or elsewhere that repentance is a prerequisite for salvation. What I do see is "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life".
But do not misunderstand me, once the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within the believer, He does a housecleaning by pointing out what sin is present in ones life. Refusal to confess ones sin (and we all sin from time to time) grieves or quenches the Holy Spirit and will cause one to come under discipline and that may be a real ouchy. Hebrews 12:6f
---leej on 12/2/10

While visiting a Pentecostal church I observed people being "slain in the spirit". Whereupon I got up and held a prayer line mysel. As I prayed for people many of them were "slain in the spirit" many falling down before I ever reached them. This greatly puzzled me and I wondered what this could be and so I began to pray about it. I believe that when the Holy Spirit manifest itself then fleshly man will be overcome and will fall down. Many people refer to this as a touch of God. More than a touch of God is a manifestation or the presence of God which overcomes them.
Anyone can do this it does not require a "special" "spiritual" person.
---mima on 12/2/10

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MarkV no I don't believe in that either,I would freak out if I saw that too and frankly I would exit quickly. My close friends went to a church because of a guest speaker and the people there were crawling around like snakes suspose to be under Gods power too,they felt more like they had seen the Devil at work not God,and they got out really quick. Sadly there are the churches with strange ideas and ways and we do have to be careful. I am sure as time goes by things like that will get worse.
---Darlene_1 on 12/2/10

I, like Darlene, was surprised to find myself looking at a ceiling after responding to a word of knowledge through the minister who, by the way, didn't get to lay his hands on me before I went down. When I got up, I knew I wasn't the same. When I went to work that night, I had to be let in because the doors locked after a certain time. The girl who let me in took one look at me and asked, "What happened to you?" I never had to say a word, she could see the change on me. I shared Christ with her and she came the very next night and met Him for herself. I didn't believe in Holy Ghost activity either. Moral of the story: don't knock what you haven't experienced AND consider the fruit of the activity.
---Linda on 12/2/10

I also want to say this: I have always believed there was a God, but I didn't know Jesus. I ran from the God I knew until that night. I was asked to come to that service and I went because I trusted the friend who asked me. I knew they did stuff there I didn't "agree with". The Holy Spirit used the minister in a word of knowledge to show me that God knew who I was, where I was, and what I was thinking...and He still loved me anyway. Years later, during a "slain in the Spirit" debate, I asked Him why He chose that method to get my attention. He said seven words: "You fell down but I got up." That meshes perfectly with His death, burial, and resurrection. His death my death and His life my life.
---Linda on 12/2/10

leei Thats an interesting story. To my knowledge no one needs to fall under God's power onto the floor,I know I don't and I certainly never sought to do that. The first time it happened no one could have been more surprised than I. I went for prayer because I was sick,and when prayed for found myself on the floor,the strange part about it I was looking up at the bottom of a wooden bench when I opened my eyes. I didn't feel it when I hit the floor and didn't move after I was down therefore the only way to get there was to have fallen there in the first place. It was a very awe inspiring experience. just a point of information,I have never been hurt when I fall by myself.
---Darlene_1 on 12/2/10

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If you notice all that fell backwards were evil.

There is not one single example in scripture or even a Gift of appropriating the power to slay in the spirit, or the Gift of catching those slain in the spirit.
Not even Paul was Slain in the spirit.

Beware of those who touch you on hand or that is where the Beast has placed his mark.

This is where all who avoid Calvary will come for their microwaved deliverance! Fast food KILLS!
---kathr4453 on 12/2/10

David8318, this is about another topic, please go to the one that has that topic.

Sister Darline, I do not question what you experienced for I was not there and cannot oppose what I did not see. What I did see at two events held in San Jose was a lot. Again, this was not at my Pentecostal Church. I went with many from my church to witness two events and was shock at what went on. I did not get into any trances or spiritual high's before the events took place as many others did. A lot was said before the demonstrations so that people would be in such a high and be ready to see the slain by the Spirit actions. It went crazy. I do not believe those events were of God. People screaming on the ground, just not right.
---Mark_V. on 12/2/10

The involuntary "falling" in the biblical examples I have found were due to encounters with even the most miniscule portion of God's glory or encounter with a celestial being.
The walking up on stage forehead touching collapsing thingy dingy seems to be a modern phenomena first seen in the 1800's in college lecture halls with Dr. Fredrich Mesmer, an unbeliever, who routinely did this to his classes by waving his hand or blowing. Its where we got the term mesmerized.
I am NOT denying the encounters just trying to add a little perspective.
---larry on 12/1/10

since the other blog is closed I will answer you here.
Yes, repentance is part of the salvation process. You can't be saved without admitting you have sinned.
And we are talking about what Jesus said word for word. he said "repent and believe". He did not say either/or but BOTH. So, repentance is part of the requirement but not all of it.
---ginger on 12/1/10

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//When the anointing power of God causes one to fall under His power,people submit to that power and whether they fall on their face,back or side doesn't really matter.

I have not experienced being slain in the Spirit nor have a desire to do so, but do not knock it because an acquaintance of mine did just that - scorned it and associated it what emotional type people.

One day, she asked me to guess what happened to her. When I said 'you got slain in the Spirit?". She was dumbfounded that I guessed correctly.

I believe totally that we should seek the Giver rather than the gifts and do that which is according to His will.

Some people need it, others may not.
---leej on 12/1/10

All through the Bible there are people who "fell" before God or Angel messengers of God. Research "fell" and you can see for yourself. The reason slain in the spirit isn't in the Bible is because it is a term developed by modern men not God. Although those people fell on their faces,including Christ in prayer it is evident the act is to show submission to God. When the anointing power of God causes one to fall under His power,people submit to that power and whether they fall on their face,back or side doesn't really matter. There are many things in the New Testament which aren't in the Old Testament. God brought forth a New Covenant and new ways of doing or receiving a lot of different things.
---Darlene_1 on 12/1/10

MarkV- you said on another thread that Romans 6:23 refers to '2nd death'. I'd like to ask where in Ro.6:23 does it speak of '2nd death'? No where does it refer to '2nd death'.

'2nd death' is distinct from the death we inherit from Adam to which Ro.6:23 refers.

I also disagree with your assessment of my previous comments. You say I believe sinners have their sins forgiven at death. This is not true as some sins are unforgiveable. However, by being resurrected no redeemed human comes into 'double jeopardy,' to be punished again for what he did before his death.

Romans 6:7 teaches that it is the condition of being a sinner a person is 'acquitted' of at death. Thus, truth is there is no hell-fire (Eccs.9:5,10, Ezk.18:4).
---David8318 on 12/1/10

MarkV I like the way you put it,some people go too far to the left. I call them fanatics and yes there are some in every denomination and I'm against that just as much as anyone. I'm sorry all you saw who were slain in the Spirit were fakes and they may have been,but everyone who "falls out under the power",thats what the old timers called it,is not fake. It has only happened to me a very few times but I wasn't in a trance,unconscious or a fake. Our human bodies aren't constructed to hold up under God's awesome power. When one is truely under the power of God and goes down one doesn't even feel it when they hit the floor,anyway I didn't,I was praising God.
---Darlene_1 on 12/1/10

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What is meant by worship God in spirit and truth (John 4,24)

What God truly desires is "A pure, a holy, a spiritual worship, therefore, is such as He seeks-the offering of the soul rather than the formal offering of the body-the homage of the heart rather than that of the lips." (Barnes Notes)

MarkV - the practice of being slain in the Spirit is not supported in Scipture, howbeit, there are many who have testified of that experience. An acquaintance of mine, had that experience at the hands of a Roman Catholic priest, got up and went thru the line again and experienced the same thing.

Frankly, I are wary of wierd type experiences.

---leej on 12/1/10

Leej, I also agree with you on what you said. There is no denomination which does not have some who go too far to the left. Not all Pentecostal's do the same thing, and not all Baptist either. Not all Catholics either since there is now many Charismatic Catholics also. I have been to some who did that slain in the spirit, and I believe it was all fake. I belonged to a Pentecostal Church, and they never taught that. Nor did they allow anyone speaking in tongues during services. So to say all Catholics are wrong, or all Pentecostals are wrong, is just wrong.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/10

There are 1/2 billion Pentecostals in the world and all of those people do not put Spiritual experiences before the Word of God. I've been in Pentecostal churches all my 71 years and from the time I was very very young my Mother read the Bible to me. My Grandmother was my Sunday School teacher and she taught from the Bible. The Preachers preached straight from the Bible,no canned sermons for them. The Bible has always been the main focus in Pentecostal churches. The move of the Spirit was a blessing not a necessary occurance. The Holy Ghost with tongues and all the Gifts are given for service to God,although it may be a blessing,to be used of God,most feel the responsibility of being enpowered by God and used like that strongly,praying much.
---Darlene_1 on 11/30/10

There are abuses in Pentecostalism, and I don't defend them.. I occasionally attend a Pentecostal church, but, though I believe in "spiritual gifts" and have exercised them some, I'd rather spend more time studying the whole Word of God which I see as much more important

But igacious, who has obviously never been "slain in the spirit", feels qualified to judge that those who have, enter into a "trace" or are "unconscious". He never heard this from someone who experienced it.
It only shows that he does not understand, nor care to, because he has been turned against pentecostalism by his early experiences in some church(s).
---Donna66 on 11/30/10

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//Ignatius,whatever you may feel against Pentecostals you should not speak evil of them.

I can only agree as Pentecostals like many other denominations have their strong as well as weak points.

Pentecostals weakness is that they emphasize experiences far more than than doctrine or knowledgeable of the Bible.

Other denominations like Orthodox reject experience emphasing more on tradition and what they beleive to be the content of Apostolic Succession.
---leej on 11/30/10

Ignatius,whatever you may feel against Pentecostals you should not speak evil of them,Titus 3:2 To speak evil of no man,to be no brawlers,but gentle showing all meekness to all men. No matter what you thought you saw unless you experienced all the things you talk against yourself you really aren't qualified to say anything about them. Such hatred you show. Nothing God does is to be feared or hated but to be received with thanksgiving. James 4:11.12 Speak not evil of one another brethren,He that speaks evil of his brother,and judges his brother,speaks evil of the law,and judges the law,but if you judge the law,you are not a doer of the law,but a judge. There is one lawgiver,who is able to save and destroy,who are you that judges another?
---Darlene_1 on 11/30/10

"but I still consider your statements just "opinion" and a biased and distorted one at that" (Donna66)

No, it is a fact.

"(for example, no one has ever lost consciousness being "slain in the spirit")"

I and many others have witness many that have lost consciousness or enter into a trace while being "slain in the spirit". That is exactly what being slain in the Spirit is. Convulsing on the floor for long periods of times, and receiving "divine revelations" are sometimes assorted with this non-biblical practice.

It seems that YOU know very little about Charismatic/Pentecostalism.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/29/10

ignacious -- OK I apologize for assuming you know little about Petecostalism. But your description: "wild babbling, voodoo dancing,
unconsciousness" shows you lack understanding. (for example, no one has ever lost consciousness being "slain in the spirit")

I don't defend everything that occurs under the banner of Pentecostalism, but I still consider your statements just "opinion" and a biased and distorted one at that.
---Donna66 on 11/29/10

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"I'll accept your statement as one of speculation and opinion." (Donna66)

On the contrary, I was born and raised in a Pentecostal home. Attending church nearly every Sunday, bible class, prayer meetings, etc. I have been to dozens of Charismatic/Baptist/Pentecostal churches. My Father is a Evangelical Pentecostal Preacher, always traveling and preaching.

So yea Donna66, I know the doctrines and practices of Pentecostalism because I was born and raised in such heterodox sect. I finally found the Truth (God's word) in Orthodoxy before graduating High School, and never looked back.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/29/10

Point of information. The Gift of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is the gift,not the tongues the Holy Ghost gives utterance with as believers experience the infilling of the entire body/temple. The Gift of Tongues,which requires interpretation,isn't the same experience but can happen any time after believer receives the Baptism of HG infilling. Days,Months,or Years later isn't uncommon. For me Gift of HG with tongues came 10 years after repentence,Gift of Tongues with interpretation 20 years after that.
---Darlene_1 on 11/29/10

"I urge you just in case,not do it for your own sakes. " (Darlene 1)

The wild babbling, voodoo dancing, unconsciousness (being slain in the spirit) (activities so frequent in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles) among others are simply not from God. Holy Scriptures denounced them, not I or others.

One who simply read Acts 2:1-11 and 1 Corinthians 12-14 will know that the there is great difference between glossolaia being perform in these sects and what the Apostles experienced. The two are NOT the same no matter how you slice it. The corruption in today's Charismatic/Pentecostal churches is akin to the corruption that was going on in the Corinth Church and early sects such as the Montantists.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/29/10

Ignatius--//In any case, what goes on in Pentecostal circles is simply not from God. Period.//
Are you now as much an expert on "what goes on in Pentecostal Circles" as you are the history of orthodoxy?
What if you actually don't KNOW everything that "goes on" in "pentecostal circles"?
Do you know everything that God does?

I'll accept your statement as one of speculation and opinion.
---Donna66 on 11/29/10

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\\While I am not a fan of those who speak in tongues, do you not realize that within the Orthodox church there are still regulations on the books governing the speaking in tongues?\\

Please tell us what these regulations are and where they may be found, leej.

When you do so, I'll give you a TRUE example of the gift of tongues.
---Cluny on 11/29/10

"While I am not a fan of those who speak in tongues, do you not realize that within the Orthodox church there are still regulations on the books governing the speaking in tongues?" (leej)

While Orthodoxy does recognize that speaking in tongues (and according John Chrysostom and many other Fathers, speaking in tongues was simply speaking in a unknown language [for the person speaking] but a known earthly language) is one of the minor gifts, not irrelevant for today.

However, there have only been some rare occurrences when such a gift has been exercised in Orthodoxy, but it was akin to Acts 2:1-10.

In any case, what goes on in Pentecostal circles is simply not from God. Period.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/29/10

Cluny //What has yet to be determined is if the meaningless glossolalia is in fact the same as the Biblical gift of tongues.

While I am not a fan of those who speak in tongues, do you not realize that within the Orthodox church there are still regulations on the books governing the speaking in tongues?

As I see it those who emphasize speaking in tongues often do so at the exclusion of anything of any substance when it comes to the Christian walk.

An AOG pastor once time bragged that he had 3 messages in tongues at his service one Sunday, but when I pointed out to him, that a Greek professor rattled off a Psalm in Greek at one of his prayer meetings resulting in totally bedlam, he had nothing to say.

1Co 14:33
---leej on 11/29/10

To all those who call people who accept God's gift to man of the Holy Ghost with tongues hateful names,make fun of them,and demean them,I warn you out of love,you aren't really calling us names you are calling God's Gift to man the Holy Ghost with tongues names. That seems dangerously close to blasphemey, but its not for me to judge and say it is,however I urge you just in case,not do it for your own sakes. You may not choose to receive God's gift of HG and tongues but that is between you and God. I don't call you names for doing that. It isn't abiding in the Law of Love when you are so harshly calling your brothers or sisters-in-Christ ugly names. Even in the secular world it just isn't good manners. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 11/29/10

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In the Bible Spirit,referring to God,Christ,Holy Ghost are,captilized,spirit with a small "s" refers to human spirit or others besides God's. To worship in spirit and in truth are in small letters. Example,John 4:23,24 But the hour comes,and now is,that the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,for the father seeks such to worship him. God is a Spirit, and they that worship him,must worship Him in spirit and in truth (man's cleansed). Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,and began to speak with other tongues,as the Spirit (note captial means,Holy Ghost)gave them utterance. Jude 1:20 But you beloved,building up yourselves in your most holy faith,praying in the Holy Ghost(tongues),Gods Spirit.
---Darlene_1 on 11/29/10


Your resoponse seems rather uncharitable in the light of:

1 Corinthians 14:39, "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues."
---Bruce5656 on 11/28/10\\

No, it's not.

What has yet to be determined is if the meaningless glossolalia is in fact the same as the Biblical gift of tongues.

Saying it is will not make it so.

And as I've said before, those who claim to speak in tongues have as much trouble learning Biblical languages as those not so blessed. Why is that?
---Cluny on 11/29/10

catherine, don't you think some spiritual things are too hard to explain and therefore the carnal minded man cannot understand the things of the Lord because they are spiritually appraised?

I'll give it a try. To Worship in Spirit means the Holy Spirit worships God through you...I can't explain this, but am trying.

The Holy Spirit and your spirit together worship God in Spirit.

In truth means, you've got to be walking in the truth of God's word to know what this means...Jesus said, "Thy word is truth." If you're not regenerated, or not "IN CHRIST JESUS" you're not walking in truth, thus you cannot worship in Spirit and in Truth.
---Donna5535 on 11/29/10

Jesus declares in John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

The flesh can never ever worship God. When a Christian worships God, it's because the Spirit of God has given him a new life in his spirit which was once dead in sins and trespasses. This is not the will of the flesh but the will of God that he receives the Spirit through regeneration.

So unless the dead man is born of the Spirit by the will of God, the Scripture is merely a book of words that he quotes and use without understanding. And as Scripture says, "But without faith it is impossible to please Him..." (Hebrews 11:6)
---christan on 11/29/10

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I agree with Ignatius and Alan on this. I do not mind anyone speaking in tongues if they so want to but don't expect anyone to believe what you are doing is coming from God. There is no need for something that only brings pride to those who say they have it. At least in so many cases. Paul had trouble with those who had tongues, in 1 Cor. chapter 12 and 14 he spoke of such problems. They were abusing the gifts given to them. So he wrote chapter 13 to explain that it doesn't matter what you have or can do, without love, they mean nothing at all. Love based on Christ. For He is Love. Those people had become prideful. Most of those gifts ceased.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/10


If one read 1 Corinthians 12-14, one will quickly see the difference between that which was practiced in the early days of the Church, and what is now being dissed out by Charismatics/Pentecostals. The two are NOT the same. The gift was treated as a minor gift by Saint Paul, and was not present in the Early Church as a "universal gift" (as seen in Pentecostalism).

Besides, worshiping in Spirit and in Truth has nothing to do with the wild babbling that is being done in some heterodox sects today.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/28/10

worship in "Spirit and in Truth"

not carnally and not with false pretense.
---aka on 11/28/10


Your resoponse seems rather uncharitable in the light of:

1 Corinthians 14:39, "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues."
---Bruce5656 on 11/28/10

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It doesn't mean the unintelligible utterances some call tongues.
The fact is you can't worship God any other way than IN spirit because he is a spirit.
Worship, like prayer, is essentially agreeing with God.
Truth of course is his son, the living word.

Rote and ritual attempts at worship were common in that day as it is today, particularly in Catholic churches, and this was a reminder.
---larry on 11/28/10

\\To worship in "spirit and in truth" means to worship in tongues(spirit) and in understandable language (truth).\\

No, it doesn't. It has NOTHING to do with the babbling ignorant people call "tongues."
---Cluny on 11/28/10

Jesus declares -

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.", John 3:3 "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.", John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

John 1:12,13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
---christan on 11/28/10

Mima ... "Those that denied the gift of tongues are completely blind to this interpretation"

In that case, Mima, why are we who do not speak in tongues told to worship in Spirit asnd in Truth?

Your answe samcks of elitism and exclusivity and superiority..
---aalan566_of_uk on 11/28/10

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Well, here is a good answer, I thought I might share with some: What does it mean to worship in spirit and in truth is best understood to mean not in the Holy Spirit, but rather in the spiritual realm, in the realm of spiritual activity. This means that true worship involves not only your physical bodies but also our spirits, the immaterial aspect of our existence that primarily acts in the unseen realm [Luke 1:46-47]. How's That?
---catherine on 11/28/10


I have the gift of tongues but I respectfuly disagree with your answer.

Consider the context John 20-24: The Samaritian woman(v.7), who's ancestors worshiped (falsly v.22) "in this mountain" (v20). The Jews who worshiped in (God sanctioned v.22) Jerusalem (v.21). Both insisting that God could only truly be worshiped in a particular place.

It was to this concept that Jesus responded (v. 23) "true worshippers... in spirit and in truth" In other words, worship not in a specific place and time but rather "in the spirit" acording to the truth that was yet to be revealed. A whole different way of relating to God than even the Jews had known.
---Bruce5656 on 11/28/10

Most will not understand my answer. To worship in "spirit and in truth" means to worship in tongues(spirit) and in understandable language (truth). Many with the gift of tongues will quickly see the light. Those that denied the gift of tongues are completely blind to this interpretation.
---mima on 11/28/10

According the Greek word, worship is like a dog licking its master's hand, or crouching in adoration. So, it involves submission in love, I would consider.

Worship is what happens **in the heart***, when spiritually we are submissive to the Holy Spirit, discovering how the Holy Spirit transforms us to be like God's love having Heaven's pleasantness in His "incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (in 1 Peter 3:4) We worship God our Father, by being in His love's incorruptible beauty of "a gentle and quiet spirit" so precious and such prosperity to Him!!!

So, worship is not outward copy-catting of pre-planned religious acting witch any psychopath can imitate.
---Bill on 11/28/10

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"What does it mean to worship in "Spirit and in Truth"?"
It means to rely upon Father's Spirit, as in His direct Divine inspiration and empowerment, to lead you into His Truth and to empower you through His Grace, as in His Divine influence and guidance, to live out that truth.
---Josef on 11/27/10

What happens in Orthodox services.

BTW--did you notice the Trinitarian reference here?

Those who worship God must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth [Jesus] for the FAther seeks such to worship Him.
---Cluny on 11/27/10

When the human spirit meets the Spirit of God one is overcome by the other and the stronger Spirit uncovers Truth to the heart of the weaker. That truth is a Tsunami wave that rushes over everything it touches producing a conviction to be obeyed. Standing against that wave destroys the hearer should they resist producing a snarling hatred. Those that give in riding the wave are comforted by it and find peace within their soul.

Our specie is a worshiper by nature, and so everyone worships something in some spirit at some time. Worshiping in spirit happens anytime a created thing is held in higher regard then the truth of God, worshiping in truth however only comes by the spirit of God.
---Pharisee on 11/27/10

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