Donna66, you are right, God also wants mothers to stay home and bring their children in the faith for a purpose that He has already determine they will do. I believe that Steven has been treated bad at some churches, don't know why, and since then he has spoken against the Churches of Christ. And he has even mentioned he teach at some churches. We know many are not good churches, but we cannot tell others not to gather together. Since sin is everywhere it is not only found in Churchs but in everyday life. In the World. No one can escape sin.
---Mark_V. on 1/15/11|
steveng--//why isn't every christian out in the field instead of sitting and performing rituals in their churches? //. How do you know they aren't doing BOTH?
For most people the "field" is close to home...in the neighborhood, on the job, in the school. It's quite possible to be in church on Sunday and "in the field" the rest of the week.
---Donna66 on 1/14/11|
Steven G, of course there is many exceptions. Why, many that are dying in the hospitals, some who cannot move, others who don't speak or hear. Some who are completely disabled. Those are exceptions. What does that have to do with what we were talking about? Instead of complaining about the churches, you should be one to help them. Bring up your complains to them. Preach the gospel Truth to them. And let God take care of those who trash the church by their false doctrines. God is very capable of taking care of that.
---Mark_V. on 1/14/11|
Mark_V.: "The one's that never do anything have to be tar's, unless they are disabled."
Are you saying there are exceptions? I know dozens of disabled christians throughout North America who are strengthen by the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel - the Kingdom of God and how to get there. God will give anyone the strength to preach, to do His will.
---Steveng on 1/13/11|
Steven G, I say what I say because you are still doing that. Example, here is another statement, you say:
"If every denominational christian professes they are filled with the Holy Spirit (after they are baptised) then why isn't every christian out in the field instead of sitting and performing rituals in their churches?"
Again speaking against the Church.
The reason is Steven, that not all who call themselves Christians are really saved. They don't seem to be moved by the Spirit. Display the disposition of a Christian, and many of them do not even know who God really is. I said the Church is full of wheat and tar's. The one's that never do anything have to be tar's, unless they are disabled.
---Mark_V. on 1/12/11|
Mima--Nothing wrong with most Christian rituals. People will form rituals, anyway, even if none are in place. They lend order to Christian gatherings and worship.
But they DO NOT SAVE ONES SOUL. That must be made crystal clear to whomever we present the Gospel.
---Donna66 on 1/11/11|
Mark_V.: "I'm not convince that you want to give up on bashing the gathering of Christians."
There you go again, taking my words out of context. Why do you continually think I bash the gathering of christians?
Mark_V.: "but the Holy Spirit also guides believers to many missions."
If every denominational christian professes they are filled with the Holy Spirit (after they are baptised) then why isn't every christian out in the field instead of sitting and performing rituals in their churches?
---Steveng on 1/11/11|
The question of set rituals in virtually all denominations will drive those seeking to work for the enlargement of the kingdom of God to one on one witnessing quicker than anything else. The realization that God has not promised to work with your church's building fund, or crochet parties but rather with his word is very sobering. But strangely most Christians never looked deep enough to understand this.
---mima on 1/11/11|
Steven G, I'm not convince that you want to give up on bashing the gathering of Christians. Your arguments are just not good ones. You say,
"What is the mission of a christian? Is it the same every day? God forbid."
you are now speaking of a different topic. Not about the gathering of Christians. Christians have many missions. They are commanded by Jesus our Lord to preach the good news to all mankind, but the Holy Spirit also guides believers to many missions. Some to give up their personal lives to be missionaries, other to be teachers, and many to bring food to the hungry, and so on etc.
---Mark_V. on 1/11/11|
Cluny: "There's something in the NT about "living quiet lives in all piety and godliness." When has that changed?"
Did the apostles just stay at home and attended church every week? Did Jesus sit at home and preached in the temples? They lived a life of piety and godliness, yet they went into the world and did more in four years than a whole denomination of people - put together.
---Steveng on 1/10/11|
\\What is the mission of a christian? Is it the same every day? God forbid.\\
There's something in the NT about "living quiet lives in all piety and godliness." When has that changed?
\\You really need to educate yourself about what rituals are. Ask cluny.\\
I've mentioned Protestant rituals several times: invitation hymns, altar calls, sinner's prayers, taking up collections, revivals..... the list goes on and on.
We are ALL going to have rituals. The real issue is if you will have rituals that are of God's orders, or those that follow traditions and precepts of men.
---Cluny on 1/9/11|
Cluny: "Or things in your church never fall into a predictable pattern?"
Mark_V.: "Steven G, your reasons are wrong... What is the big difference? "
What is the mission of a christian? Is it the same every day? God forbid.
Mark_V.:"...but not doing it is a ritual also."
You really need to educate yourself about what rituals are. Ask cluny.
---Steveng on 1/8/11|
Steven G, your reasons are wrong. They don't all stand up and seat down. They don't all pray the same prayers, they don't all sing the same songs. Most do go to church every Sunday and Adventist on Saturdays. You find that terrible and I don't know why. In homes you do the same thing, you either pray for each other or for others. You might just seat down all the time that would be a ritual, You might not like to sing worship songs, which is ok but not doing it is a ritual also. you might have the same speaker, that is a ritual, or you might have many speakers, that too would be a ritual. What is the big difference? The only difference is the size, and the ability to help others is greater in a small church then in a big church.
---Mark_V. on 1/8/11|
\\Denominational christians go to church every week, they pray the same prayers, they sing the same songs, they stand at certain times and sit at certain times.\\
And I presume that in your church you sing a given hymn just once and then never again?
Or things in your church never fall into a predictable pattern?
---Cluny on 1/8/11|
Christianity has gotten into a rut of routines.
Denominational christians go to church every week, they pray the same prayers, they sing the same songs, they stand at certain times and sit at certain times. Going to church has become ritual, doing the same thing week in and week out. Every year christmas (and easter, too) comes around and they perform the same rituals.
True christianity is not a routine. It's a lifestyle not adhered to routine. It changes on a daily basis. Every person's needs change daily and, therefore, prayers change daily.
---Steveng on 1/7/11|
A home is just a home if there is no Christians in it. The same goes for the visible Churches. We bring Christ into the homes at home churches just as we do into buildings. Building without Christians are just building. A home church as well as a building church who has genuine Christians has to have a doctrine they follow. They cannot have all kinds of different doctrines at homes or at building Churches. The only difference between both of them is the size of the gathering of Christians. In a small group you can attend to everyone and be of help to everyone, in a building Church which is large, many are not attended to. But they are the same thing. But they are both Churches. The gathering of Christians.
---Mark_V. on 1/7/11|
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**Steveng--Home church or denominational church..//
The two environments are completely different// **
They are basically the same thing.
In either case, someone decided, "Now we're going to have a REAL New Testament Church with ME as the head of it."
---Cluny on 1/7/11|
Steveng--Home church or denominational church..//
The two environments are completely different// True. But the home church is not necessarily "better". I've seen divorces because people in a home church "loved one another" a little too much.
Both groups have a place in the Kingdom. I believe God visits them both.
---Donna66 on 1/6/11|
Steveng ... I am quite capable of understanding the bibilcal meaning of those words.
Who are you to say that they are not present in a denominational church.
You have been to a few, and found them lacking ... that does not mean they are all like that.
I have been to few non-demoninational church, and fornd them lacking, but that does not mean I condemn them all.
Yes you are arrogant.
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/6/11|
Steven G, what does it matter if genuine Christians meet in a building or a house? It is still the gathering of Christians, a Church. You are trying to quiz out of what you said. When you meet in homes, there will be one agreement as to what is going to be taught. I'm sure you will not allow Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses to attend or else your members will change doctrines in time or they will change to yours. So you have to have one form of doctrine to teach. Not just any doctrine.
In a building the same thing happens, many are not saved and many have different doctrines. That is why the visible church has tares and wheat. So do home churches. Nevertheless we are called to gather by Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 1/4/11|
Alan of UK-- Amen and AMEN!
(to your post of 1/4/11.)
---Donna66 on 1/4/11|
alan8566_of_uk: "or even in a church"
The two environments of the church and "where" are completely different. As I asked you earlier, do a KJV bible search for "one another," "each other," "encourag," and "comfort." Then compare the verses you read to your denominational church environment. As I could tell, you did not look up the words. And you didn't even do research about home churches (not affiliated in any way to denominational churches). The two environments are completely different.
---Steveng on 1/4/11|
Have you not read where two or more are gathered in Jesus' name there he is also? That means anywhere: a park, a street corner, in someone's home, or a your favorite cafe ... or even in a church
Only arrogant people believe that the way to God cannot be through a denominational church
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/4/11|
Mark_V.: "Steven G, what did I twist? Haven't you been totally against the Church of Christ?"
You see, you did it again. You twisted my posts. I'm not against the true church of Christ, but of denominational churches. There is a huge difference. As I have said many times in the past denominational churches divide christians into their own little cults each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living, and interpretations of the bible. In the USA there are over 33,000 different christian denominations.
---Steveng on 1/3/11|
alan8566_of_uk: "He has given us his story of when no churches helped him..."
It looks as though you, too, are taking things out of context from many of my posts. I was simply making an observation, a comparison of two similar situations twenty years apart, but having different results: that love has left the churches today.
---Steveng on 1/3/11|
alan8566_of_uk: "But at the same time he has told us that we should do an internet KJV search for of "together" "one another," "each other," "encourag," and "comfort"."
Have you not read where two or more are gathered in Jesus' name there he is also? That means anywhere: a park, a street corner, in someone's home, or a your favorite cafe.
Now, the gathering at a denominational church is totally different. (by the way, your KJV bible search doesn't have to be on the internet, a searchable bible software on your computer works just as well) Compare those verses you searched above to attending your church.
---Steveng on 1/3/11|
alan8566_of_uk, Mark V:
Only arrogant people believe that the way to God is through a denominational church. There are hundreds of thousands of christians throughout the world that don't or can't attend churches like they have in America and Europe. They don't have the luxury of large churches where you are only a face in the crowd. They meet in secret places so they are not caught by their governments. There is to be a time when christians in the United States and Europe will be meeting in secret places.
I strongly suggest educating yourselves about home churches (that are not affilliated with denominational churches).
---Steveng on 1/3/11|
Mark ... Steveng is being clever with words, not now so much as when he has used them in the past.
He has indeed, on many occasions, told us that churches are not of God, and that we should avoid them. He has given us his story of when no churches helped him when he requested assistance as he travelled across America (I think it was America)
But at the same time he has told us that we should do an internet KJV search for of "together" "one another," "each other," "encourag," and "comfort".
T think what he is saying is that we should still meet together in fellowship, but that it's wrong to do that in church.
I can't fathom why he should think that.
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/2/11|
Steven G, what did I twist? Haven't you been totally against the Church of Christ? You have spoken constantly how it was made by satan. That no one should go there. Then you turn around and told us you went and taught there many times. So from what I have heard from you, is, to not go to churches, and to read the Bible without numbers, chapters and to only read the Bible for information, then you told us to google words from the Bible up in the internet. So you have said some confusing things, but you were speaking against the gathering of Christians in churches. And that is the reason I first answered you.
---Mark_V. on 1/2/11|
Mark_V.: "...but don't knock the gathering of Christians. It's not Scriptural."
There you go again, twisting people's words around. It's becoming a bad habit of yours, eh? When have I ever "knocked" the gathering of christians? What previous post of mine made you assume I was against fellowship or the gathering of christians? Do you twist bible verses around like you do people's words? (come to think about it, you have many times) Any time this subject came up I would have people do an online KJV bible search for "one another," "each other," "encourag," and "comfort" and a new word to search just for you, "fellow."
---Steveng on 1/1/11|
Steven G, all my life I have been going to churches, but have been a Bible learning Christian for twenty years, and have attended many congregations and I know some teach different then others and some have pastors who don't seem to know what they are teachings, but nothing so bad that I would speak against them to the world and tell the world not to gather. Never. I would never say anything wrong about the gathering of Christians whether small, large or home churches. Many are cults but we can discern which ones they are and leave. God is in control and judges all those who speak falsely. I'm glad you try to help, but don't knock the gathering of Christians. It's not Scriptural.
---Mark_V. on 12/31/10|
No problem Kev, and hope to debate more wonderful Scriptures with you in the future. I like what you say and mostly read what many others say also. There are so many I do not answer some of them.
---Mark_V. on 12/30/10|
THERE ARE NONE!!!
---John on 12/30/10|
Mark_V: "there is many things we could help on in a Church by bringing things out to the Pastors or teachers, but not while service is going on."
For over thirty years, I've been working with pastors and teaschers of many denominations without success. One Luthern pastor confided in me saying that I am right, but I must preach and practice what the Luthern counsil tells use to preach and practice.
---Steveng on 12/30/10|
Thanks for clarifying Your view Mark V :D
---kevin5443 on 12/29/10|
Bro. Kevin, there is a lot more to what a Church does. I was talking about while the service is going on, that it would not be wise for everyone to stop the preacher from speaking while he is presenting the word to everyone. I said it was better to do that at a bible study class, not during the service. A Church has a lot of functions to take care of, no question about that.
---Mark_V. on 12/14/10|
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Mark V ? really? seems to us there is much more involved in a church body than just preaching,like, teaching,outreach's,clean up,
activities,studies,and a plethora of other charitable/helps activities,that are in need of helper's...
and if Your church does'nt have any? what a great time to start one,two or a few :D
---kevin5443 on 12/13/10|
From the answers I have seen so far, none can be true in a Church service. The teacher or pastor has to prepare the message for the day and has only so much time to present it, whether an hour or two. If he ask people opinions on something he said while at the service, you would have chaos. You would have to stay there for days depending how many members the Church has. Those kind of things have to be brought up on Bible classes. Where you can question anything you are been teach. You have to remember there is tares and wheat inside a Church. There is also people who have hate and that only opens the door for the enemy to step in. How do I know they have hate, just listen to how many here speak against the Church.
---Mark_V. on 12/5/10|
Paul, there is many things we could help on in a Church by bringing things out to the Pastors or teachers, but not while service is going on.
Candice I believe is a Jehovah witness and they do not have church services, they have meetings. I have been to many of them, many years ago. They let anyone take over, but all with an agenda. Messages are given to every congregation from the Watch Tower for a period of time, they are told what they should do when they witness. They have their own interpreters of Scripture directing what is to be said. I never saw anyone argue a point of faith with anyone within the meetings. You do what you are told faithfully.
---Mark_V. on 12/5/10|
Mima yes, since I homechurch through teleconference we ALL join in. We have an elder who is in charge,but we ALL take turns reading the bible passage for the day & disscussing it.It is not a one sided thing like mainstream churches & Pastors being the only ones teaching.
---Candice on 12/4/10|
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we the 3% of your church congregation,challenge YOU the 97% that sit out in the pews expecting to be entertained and served,GET INVOLVED!!!!
---kevin5443 on 12/2/10|
"I'd say that the modern church has many things wrong. Like a service dominated by the views of a singular man." This statement by Pharisee is a very penetrating truth. Question, have you ever been in a service where when the pastor finished talking he said something like this , does anyone else have anything to say? Have you ever experienced this?
---mima on 12/2/10|
I'd say that the modern church has many things wrong. Like a service dominated by the views of a singular man while no one else has adequate opportunity to use their gifting to edify the body. It's wrong that leaders aren't raised up and equipped from within. It's not right in my opinion that the church service be just another thing we sit on our fannies and watch like a television program. Children should witness the faith of their parents not be sent off to color and play games, and why are services only lasting an hour, a day a week should be given to the Lord. These are just a few things I'd like to see done differently.
---Pharisee on 12/2/10|