\\You could also consider it "MACRO-MUTATION" that men used to live to over 900 years and now they average less than 80 years. Does this prove evolution? Derp\\
Evolution works both ways, but I suppose you could call this "devolution."
\\That was a poor attempt to guilt someone into agreeing with you, Cluny. Im dissapointed.\\
I'm not trying to "guilt" anyone, much less get him to agree with me (and what I think on this matter has been unstated). I'm just pointing out the implications of where their own lines of thought lead.
---Cluny on 2/26/11|
Noah is one of life's lessons. Don't take your eyes off Jesus. When we take our eyes off Jesus, things happen that affect many lives.
---shira3877 on 2/26/11|
Mima: So, you suppose Noah got drunk on purpose? Maybe! I suppose he was pretty distraught (uncertain) & maybe just a little bit mad at God.
---Leon on 2/26/11|
"If left to its own devices must or juice will begin fermenting naturally within 6-12 hours with the aid of wild yeasts in the air."-Wine Month Club
"Yeast strains vary widely from place to place and contribute significantly to the odour of the finished wine. The yeasts indigenous to a particular area are an important part of what gives its wines their character."-More than Organic
What I believe is that the land was rich in nutrients because of all the decaying organic material and that the atmosphere no longer was what it used to be, contributing to the grape and yeast growth which varied the fermentation rate. Nowhere did I say that the yeast was missing. I know you rebuke others who misrepresent your posts Cluny.
---micha9344 on 2/25/11|
Noah got drunk because he was human and was a sinner. He was righteous(God called him righteous) but being righteous does not mean sinless. And certainly drunkenness was not his only sin. But when a man is declared righteous by God that decision is final. Sin does not do away with righteous.
---mima on 2/26/11|
--yeast CHANGED drastically after the flood.
This drastic change is called a MACRO-MUTATION--and that means evolution.-- CLuny
You could also consider it "MACRO-MUTATION" that men used to live to over 900 years and now they average less than 80 years. Does this prove evolution? Derp
That was a poor attempt to guilt someone into agreeing with you, Cluny. Im dissapointed.
---CraigA on 2/26/11|
The fermentation of anything by yeast, gives off alcohol as a by-product (whether you are making bread or wine) and is an ANEROBIC process. This means, among other things, the outside atmosphere does not affect it at all.
Now, if yeast did NOT ferment fruit juice before the flood, as micha and Harold are saying, that means that somehow yeast CHANGED drastically after the flood.
This drastic change is called a MACRO-MUTATION--and that means evolution.
Would they like to reconsider?
---Cluny on 2/25/11|
Micha: On what do you base your belief that the "fermentation" process was very different before the flood & the whole atmosphere & "stratum" changed afterwards? How do you know that? Sounds like you're speculating! :)
Yes Cluny, it does appear that's exactly what Harold has theorized ~ no natural forming yeast before the flood. :/
---Leon on 2/25/11|
\\I don't know if that is what he is saying Cluny, but I believe the fermentation process itself acted quite differently before the flood since the whole atmosphere and strata changed.\\
And just HOW would this affect the action of yeast or the life processes of other organisms?
And what "strata" are you talking about that changed?
---Cluny on 2/25/11|
I don't know if that is what he is saying Cluny, but I believe the fermentation process itself acted quite differently before the flood since the whole atmosphere and strata changed.
---micha9344 on 2/24/11|
\\ it is possible that the fruit of the vine did not furment before the flood and Noah did not know what would happen after.\\
So you're saying, in effect, that God created yeast after the Flood?
---Cluny on 2/23/11|
For this I don't have a thus saith the Lord, but let us reason together. You will note that before the flood people lived 8 and 9 hundred years. Genesis account of creation teaches of waters above the firmament or sky. Many things changed with the flood, it is possible that the fruit of the vine did not furment before the flood and Noah did not know what would happen after.
---Harold on 2/23/11|
Shira: I don't think Noah was an alcoholic (a person who can't stop at just one drink). I do think he was foolishly trying to drown his pain & sorrows. He probably just wanted to make the hurt go away! Noah may've desperately wanted to feel better about the extended family & friends that had perished in the flood.
Scripture gives evidence "just...and perfect" Noah didn't have a drinking problem prior to building the Ark. He certainly wasn't an alcoholic which would've displeased the Lord & would certainly have disqualified him from service to the Lord.
Thx for your interesting comments. :)
---Leon on 2/23/11|
donna66 and leon, mockers perish, but the righteous have eternal life.
---Eloy on 2/23/11|
the trouble with sin is to use your eyes, then your heart, then your body. Noah probably just wanted one drink and like so many who just drink one drink, couldn't stop. I think he just turned his back on God for a few hours and look at what happened. One sin always multiplies into many.
---shira3877 on 2/22/11|
Kevin...: What was the great evil that happened as a result of Noah's drunkenness?
You're definitely right Donna (2/19) regarding Eloy's bizarre tirades. (Pv. 14:7)
---Leon on 2/22/11|
|Read These Insightful Articles About Holidays
Again, plain and simple, Noah was thirsty else he would not have drank his wine.
---Eloy on 2/21/11|
"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:9-12
"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not." Romans 7:14,18
---christan on 2/20/11|
Leon, I care not that you think the truth is ridiculous, perhaps you do not know very many people, for Yes I know of people who have become drunk because they were thirsty.
---Eloy on 2/20/11|
God does not forbid alchol.. but he does forbid drunkness.. Noah was a man.. just like us.. Regardless of God audibly speaking with him.. He still is sin Jesus did not come yet.. I think God put this story in because a great evil happened because of his drunkenness.. its our lessons.. and the repercussions that happen because of them...
---kevinwynstra on 2/20/11|
robyn, I have zero problem, and you blaspheme. The falsehood that you have posted is this: "We all sin and fall short of God's glory. We all make errors and mistakes. Especially Christians." None of this is true, and comes from the pit. The Christian is righteous and holy and bears Christ.
---Eloy on 2/18/11
Sounds like something those Televangelists would say. Just to get your money.
Actually, the Bible DOES say that we are imperfect and in need of a savior. God sent Jesus Christ to SAVE us. Even so, we remain imperfect and need to be cleansed of sin continuously.
That includes EVERYONE that has ever lived on this Earth. Except Jesus Christ!
---Augie on 2/20/11|
"...because he was thirsty."? Eloy, Eloy, Eloy! :) Have you ever known anyone to get drunk because they were thirsty? I haven't. Ridiculous!
---Leon on 2/19/11|
Robyn-- Don't be upset because Eloy doesn't understand your point.
If you disagree with Eloy in any way he will accuse you spreading lies from the pit of hell and blaspheming all that is holy.
You sin, you "dis" the Gospel, and are going to hell.
You appear to disagree with him, therefore you sin. Most of us have received this response from him. I no longer even bother to respond, because it changes nothing.... best to just forgive his outburst and go on.
---Donna66 on 2/19/11|
\\The falsehood that you have posted is this: "We all sin and fall short of God's glory. We all make errors and mistakes. Especially Christians." None of this is true, and comes from the pit.\\
Even St. Paul had the humility to admit, "We know and part and prophesy in part."
But you claim inerrancy for everything you say and post here, no matter how erroneous it is.
Therefore, by your own words, Eloy, you're not a Christian because you make errors and mistakes all the time.
---Cluny on 2/19/11|
robyn, I have zero problem, and you blaspheme. The falsehood that you have posted is this: "We all sin and fall short of God's glory. We all make errors and mistakes. Especially Christians." None of this is true, and comes from the pit. The Christian is righteous and holy and bears Christ, not a little are the holy holy, and not a little are we converted, but instead we saints are wholly born-again, a new creation. But the unconverted, and those whom have only head knowledge and religion but have zero of Christ will delusionally think that all people are falling short of God's glory and are sinners as they themself are, because they have not yet become born-again and are not Christianed but are still abiding in sin.
---Eloy on 2/18/11|
Leon, because he was thirsty.
---Eloy on 2/18/11|
Sinners are deceived into thinking that all people are like they themselves are. This is called projecting, they project their own sinuous values and experiences outward onto others. They think, since I lie, all lie: since I cheat, all cheat: since I steal, all steal. But we born-again saints know that that is a delusion, for right dwells in us and we serve right: but sin dwells in the sinner and they serve sin. We the saints know that not all are sinners, and not all are saints: but in truth there are the righteous, and there are the sinuous, even as evidenced that an individual soul is proven innocent and clean and as evidenced that an individual soul is proven guilty and spotted.
---Eloy on 2/19/11|
It took time to prepare the ground and grow and ferment those grapes. So, he didn't drink immediately after the flood. So . . . his getting drunk possibly was not a reaction to what he experienced right after the flood. By the time he drank, his situation would have been different, I suppose.
So, may be he enjoyed the wine and didn't resist having plenty. There are times I have tasted a wine and it was very nice. So, right away, I stop, because I know I could give in to drinking too much. Enough to enjoy is enough (c:
Justified people can do evil. After Peter ministered the Holy Spirit to Gentiles (Acts 10), he betrayed the Holy Spirit and Gentile believers > Galatians 2:11-13. Also see Revelation 19:9-10, 22:8-9.
---Bill_willa6989 on 2/19/11|
for the same reason we all would if we had been trapped on a boat for 40 days/nights with a bunch of animals and family members.
---kevin5443 on 2/18/11|
MarkV, I hear you and as Christians our main duty is to witness and testify. Notice Jesus tells us to "witness" and "testify" as though as we're in the courts. And that's precisely what we must continue to do.
Many rip out a verse from the Scripture and create a universal doctrine that compromises the integrity of its context. I always believe that Scripture does not contradict Scripture but rather confirms with each other.
A classic example is the word "world". It appears no less than 206 times in the NT and when you compare the verses that consist of the word "world", you will note that there's a different meaning to it. In the end, it's all about the context.
---christan on 2/18/11|
**"Even so every good tree brings forward good fruit, but a corrupt tree brings forward bad fruit.**
And we all know what kind of fruit Eloy brings.
---Cluny on 2/18/11|
I pray all of you dark clouds who have come to this blog to have a brawl unrelated to the subject (instead of a Christ-like discussion) will go & drop your bitter acid rain somewhere else. Thank you!!! :)
---Leon on 2/18/11|
Eloy: What is your problem? If you read my post and understand what I have said you would not be confused. I used the word"perhaps"meaning I did not know for sure. So where was the falsehood? I gave my understanding from my own experiences and dealings with todays issues. My comment was not absolute nor was I speaking as an expert. I was only saying what I thought could have happened.
---Robyn on 2/18/11|
Christian, it's hard to talk to someone who is sinless. He mentioned once there was righteous people out there without the righteous of Christ. From that day I knew he didn't know what he was talking about. He said this time:
"This doctrine of all are sinners, and none is righteous is staright from the pit of hell"
I suppose the Bible is from hell since it tells us, Romans 3:10, that it is written, and it means in the Bible that,"There is none righteous, no, not one" And in Ps. 143:2 "Enter not into judgment with they servant, "for no man living is righteous before Thee"
Ecclesiastes 7:10, "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins"
---Mark_V. on 2/18/11|
robyn, you post falsehood, for the Lord God says: "Even so every good tree brings forward good fruit, but a corrupt tree brings forward bad fruit. A good tree Cannot bring forward bad fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forward good fruit. Wherefore by their fruits you all will know them. Enough that the disciple the person be as one's Master, and the servant as one's Lord. If they called the Lord of the house beelzebub, how much more them of his household?"
---Eloy on 2/18/11|
Eloy, I have shown you that those words you accuse me of saying were from Scripture, but you refuse to acknowledge it but continue to reject it. And you say "you have no light and desire to remain in darkness."
The words righteous and righteousness is mentioned no less than 510 and 291 times respectively in the Scripture. They do not mean the same when you read it in context. A classic example of this is in Romans 10:2,3 -
"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
---christan on 2/18/11|
....the sheep is Not the goat, neither is the goat the sheep.
---Eloy on 2/17/11
The most truth you've ever posted at one time.
Isaiah 29:12 The book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
15Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
24They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
---Trav on 2/18/11|
christian, I am going to cease replying to you because it is manifested that you have no light and desire to remain in darkness. I will focus on those truly seeking the truth, and I will redeem the time, and when you decide to become one of these then you too will become gladly communicated by me.
---Eloy on 2/18/11|
Noah and the other people in our bibles were like-minded and fallible as we are. Perhaps he decided to just have a one man drinking party. We all sin and fall short of God's glory. We all make errors and mistakes. Especially Christians. I walk in liberty now that I have learned this. He could have just had a moment of weakness. But to be sure, it does not mean we keep doing this over and over and use it as a cloak to do wrong. God knows our hearts.
---Robyn on 2/17/11|
"...who knows what was going on in Noah's heart when he got drunk?" Yes Ms. Donna, who indeed but Almighty God alone! Again, I don't think Noah intended to get drunk. :)
King David's situation was completely different. Scripture shows he willfully entered into sin with another man's wife & then had the man setup in battle to be killed. Consequently, God called David on the carpet (reproved him by way of the Prophet Nathan) & David had to pay dearly for his pre-meditated, immoral actions.
I never try to "trick" (deceive) anyone with my questions. That's not Christlike. :) I'm very serious about my questions, but at the same time believe we can have fun & not be so uptight with them. Thx! :)
---Leon on 2/17/11|
Eloy, you had better read Scripture properly, because God does not contradict His own Words, man does. You keep accusing me of calling God a liar when Scripture itself declares it. Here, read:
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." Romans 3:10 - this verse declares that all man before God is unrighteous, period. Where did Paul get these verses from? Psalm 14:1-3, 53:1-3, Ec 7:20.
The righteousness of Noah that God declared in Gen 7:1 is not Noah's own but imputed unto him by God through the justification by faith. You may think you are defending God's honor but you are merely being a hypocrite who does not understand justification by faith. Scripture is complete, God does not hide His plans.
---christan on 2/17/11|
Leon, at first I thought this was a trick question and there was some "spiritual" answer to it.
I laughed and said,"Because he wanted to."
But then thought about it...Noah was righteous in the eyes of God and so are we, and we still sin, right? First John says if we say we have no sin, we are a liar. God sees NOT as man sees, God looks at the heart, man judges by outward appearances, so who knows what was going on in Noah's heart when he got drunk? Why did King David committ adultery when he had God on his side? What was he thinking?
---Donna5535 on 2/17/11|
Christian, you did it again! God says, The Righteous are Righteous, and their righteousness is from me. But you pick a verse out of it's context and misapply it to support sin, and you blaspheme saying None are righteous. Therefore you say God lies, for God says my people who know their God are righteous, even as he is righteous: but you falsely say, none is righteous, making God a liar. This doctrine of all are sinners, and none is righteous is staright from the pit of hell: and we are told, be not deceived, the righteous are righteous, and the sinnuous are sinuous, the sheep is Not the goat, neither is the goat the sheep.
---Eloy on 2/17/11|
Micha: I'm really sorry you're too pharisaical to get the point. Maybe some day you will. :/
Huh Eloy!!! How does what you're saying apply to Noah getting drunk?
"He was not condemned by God for that..." That thought ocurred to me also Cliff! :) God didn't chastise (reprove) Noah for it. Rather, He was silent in the matter. Hmmm! I "speculate" (suppose) God's gracious silence was because He knew Noah's heart wasn't to get drunk. The effects of the flood weighed heavy upon the man. Noah was just depressed & unintentionally overdosed on the vino!
---Leon on 2/17/11|
Eloy, how did I call "God a liar" when the Scripture itself says "There's none righteous, no not one". You speak of one who does not even know the difference of divine righteousness and human righteousness.
The verse you quoted in Genesis 7:1, "And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark, for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation." - the "righteous" here is the divine righteousness of God which He justified by faith on Noah and to those He only love from eternity.
Go read Romans/Galatians 3 and 4, Hebrews 11 and pray that God grant you spiritual eyes and ears to understand what justification of faith does to the sinner.
---christan on 2/17/11|
Indeed ancient world not spared, but eight, Noah of righteousness a saved preacher. The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unrighteous onto the day of judgment to be punished. II Pt.2:5,9.
---Eloy on 2/16/11|
Christian, you call God a liar:
Genesis 7:1 And Yhwh said to Noah, Go into the ark both you and all your household. For you have I seen Righteous to me in this generation.
Matthew 13:43 The Lord says Then shall the Righteous shine forth as the sun
Matthew 25:46 And the Lord says The cursed shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the Righteous into life eternal.
I John 3:7 As it is written Little children, let no person deceive you: whoever that does righteousness is Righteous, even as he is Righteous.
---Eloy on 2/16/11|
Maybe like so many today, he enjoyed a nice cold beer on a hot day. no sin in that, he just over did it.
He was not condemned by God for that , Canaan was for "exposing" his father's nakedness!
---1st_cliff on 2/16/11|
Obviously he liked to drink, but I believe the story of Noah is to show that God welcomes people who have problems of addiction into His family as well as other people from all walks of life.
---mona on 2/16/11|
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law, for they are unprofitable and vain.
2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
1Ti 6:5-6 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain.
You're right Leon.
Whether we talk about the identity of Job, whether Adam and Woman had chidren before the fall, or this, it is all opinion and just a game.
Go ahead and play...
---micha9344 on 2/16/11|
Besides his wife & children, Noah had siblings. (G5:31) He likely had extended family also, i.e., aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. Though they may've thought he'd lost his mind, Noah probably had friends. Noah's dad, died before the flood. But, what about his mother?
Noah went from being one of many in his generation to being the oldest man alive on the planet after the flood. His peers were suddenly ALL DEAD! That, coupled with DEAD extended family, certainly would've depressed me. How about you?
Noah didn't discover fermentation. G9:20 indicates he had prior knowledge of the process. Maybe, he used the wine as Rx for depression & apparently overdosed.
Let's not throw the baby out with the flood waters! :)
---Leon on 2/16/11|
Scripture reads, "And Yhwh said to Noah, Go into the ark both you and all your household. For you have I seen righteous to me in this generation. And Noah being an field tender, went forward and planted a vineyard. And he drank of the wine and was drunk, and he uncovered himself laying in the middle of his tent." Gn.7:1+ 9:20,21.
---Eloy on 2/16/11|
Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" and this declaration is without exception, yes, including Noah.
---christan on 2/16/11|
Aaaa Micha! You really like to use the word "speculation" an awful lot. Weeeell, guess what, that's what this blog is about! "Why do you suppose Noah got drunk?"
Now, if you don't want to play that's okay. But, don't be a spoil sport for others. Thx! :)
---Leon on 2/16/11|
I believe Cluny is correct.
---Warwick on 2/16/11|
Because Noah was a SINNER too. Just like anyone else.
I believe that God used Noah as an "Example" for us. And we are to be "Examples" for the world too. Everyone can do their "Best" to serve God, but we still fall short at times. Like Noah did when he got drunk.
Many things can be "Good", but too much can become "Controlling" or "Addicting": Food, Drink, Money, TV, Sports, Internet, Material Goods, Medicinal Drugs, etc.
God was merciful of people's SINS during Noah's time. Later, HE sent Jesus Christ to Earth to "Save" those people -- who believed in the Savior -- from their SINS.
---Sag on 2/16/11|
Because....the wine was fermented and his body could not handle the amount taken in, therefore inebriation.
Anything more is speculation and sheer opinion...
---micha9344 on 2/15/11|
Noah may not have know about the fermentation process.
---kathr4453 on 2/15/11|
Maybe he got to enjoying the new wine a little too much.
---Linda on 2/15/11|
Cluny: True "warts & all", but I think you're to quickly jumping to conclusion regarding Noah. There's always causes behind effects. The whole story of Noah illustrates that.
Look at what had happened to Noah's life after the flood waters receded. His whole world had been radically changed right before his eyes. It must've been like waking up & finding yourself living on another planet.
What if you awakened one day & found yourself with just a handful of people left on earth? Wouldn't that rock your world?
Come on Cluny, let's not be so rash! There's a lot more going on in the story than his just being a frail human being. Noah's drunkedness was an effect brought on because...
---Leon on 2/15/11|
Cuz the wine tasted good and Noah was a sinner just like us.
---CraigA on 2/15/11|
The whole earth was anew.
He probably didn't realize the kind of crop the earth would bring forth.
I'm calling it an error in judgment.
---micha9344 on 2/15/11|
Because he was a human being and just drank too much.
The Bible, especially the OT, simply describes how people really are, warts and all.
---Cluny on 2/15/11|