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Who Invented The Trinity

Who invented the trinity? I understand that this came into being during the time of emperor Constantine, in the council of Nicea 325 AD.

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 ---Arnold on 3/2/11
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Encyclopedia Americana

"By blending Greek speculation and gnostic phantasies with doctrines of the church [Alexandria 175 A.D.] and by an allegorical interpretation of the Bible, they contributed to the introduction of heresies." p. 47, 1957


"Plotinus...evolved a form of Platonism which results in a trinity not dissimilar to that of orthodox Buddhism and Brahmanism." Origin and Evolution of Religion

"The definition of the Christian faith as contained in the creeds...of the early church indicate that unbiblical categories of Neoplatonic philosophy were used in the formulation of the doctrine of the trinity." Encyclopedia Britannica, 1976
---scott on 3/8/11

If you do not believe-God is capable and manifest His Word into flesh--Emmanuel is God with us.Mat 1:18-25[already interpreted for us.]
Ask yourself--clarify what you believe.Not to me or anyone else.
Is Yehovah as good as His Word?
Is Yehovah equal to His Word?
Is Yehovah's Word equal to Him?
Is Yehovah's Word as good as Him?
Without Elohyim speaking---Who-what-where is His Word?
How does Yehovah prove what He spoke is true?

Is 45:23 [I have sworn by myself], the [word is gone out of my mouth] in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Second-[the best part]-ask Yehovah about[Him]--God is Spirit Jn 4:24 (Holy Spirit-comforts 1Cor 2]
---char on 3/7/11

"Witnesses teach...many gods..." Samuel (1)

The bible teaches that there is only one Almighty God.
"Hear, O Israel: (lit) Jehovah our God, is one..." Deut 6:4

And yet "There [are] those that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as there are gods many..." (1 Cor 8:5 ASV)

So who are these gods?

In addition to the 'bad' ones, Satan (2 Cor 4:4) Baal, etc., we find references to Moses (Ex 7:1) the Judges (John 10:34, 35) Angels (Ps 8:5/Heb 2:7) as gods.

Since there is just one Almighty, these references must be relative when compared to the Creator. It clearly can't mean that any are equal to the creator...and yet they ARE in fact called gods.

---scott on 3/7/11

"Witnesses teach...many gods..." Samuel (2)

Each scriptural reference to some one (or thing) referred to as 'god' would have to be examined to determine...why.

Clearly the 'bad' ones are 'gods' in that they wield a real or imagined wicked authority over others, they are wrongly worshipped.

Positive examples, like Moses, are 'gods' in that they have powerful authority, entrusted to them by the Almighty. Moses as god (Ex 7:1) was only such in his position of authority and responsibility over the Israelites. He represented, for a time, the incomparable authority of Jehovah.

The angels and judges, as well, have/had only relative authority as representatives of the most high.

---scott on 3/7/11

"Witnesses...gods..." Samuel (3)

These relative 'gods' with relative, short-lived power and authority, are dust on the scales when compared to the Almighty.

Jesus is described as subject to the Father in heaven after his resurrection. (1 Cor 15:28)

He said "I can do nothing on My own initiative...I do not seek My own will...". (John 5:30)

He referred to the Father as HIS God after his death and resurrection. (Rev 3:12)

Christ is the mighty Son of God, at his Fathers side for untold eons before coming to earth to die for us. He's in heaven now as King of Kings! All others are dust on the scale when compared to him...accept for his Father who is the superior, Almighty Jehovah.
---scott on 3/7/11

"Scott's problem." Warwick (1)

The list of my personal problems is too long for the CN word limit.

But if what you refer to as 'Christian Culture' is based on God's word, then it should be easy for you to defend. Pick up your 'sword' and illuminate us.

Speaking of swords...

"Muslims...because they cannot." Warwick

When speaking with Muslims here in California I find that the scars caused by the historic brutality of your 'Christian Culture' run very deep. When Pope Innocent III ordered some 20,000 French Knights to attack and conquer Egypt, killing, raping, pillaging and subduing infidel Muslims in the name of Christianity, that's not easily forgotten.

---scott on 3/7/11

Adetunj- I doubt whether even you believe what Warwick discusses here regarding his belief in the trinity. Even Mystic Warwick describes his man made belief 'Jesus fully God (Spirit) and fully man (flesh)' a mystery.

There is a huge difference between a 'mystery' and a 'sacred secret'. The 'sacred secrets' would be revealed to true Christians at the right time, not that they would remain a 'secret' forever more. The trinity is part of the mysterious 'Babylon the Great', which is in line for destruction by God.

Warwick's futile defence of the trinity with his ridiculous trinitarian psycho-babble only serves to highlight that not only is it false, but even he cannot fathom it out.
---David8318 on 3/7/11

Mystic Warwick believes he is not 'not controlled by denominational doctrine' (3/7/11). As most if not all denominations within Christendom teach the trinity doctrine, Warwick is in denial if he believes he is not controlled by a 'denominational doctrine'.

Adetunj- I agree 'God is a Spirit'. Even Christ when he was on earth said 'God is a spirit' at John 4:24. Christ did not say 'I am a spirit'. If Christ as you say is 'God', then Christ was also a 'Spirit'. Thus, Christ being 'God' could not have died for our sins. This is the anti-Christ flavour of the trinity because it means Christ could not die because he was 'God' and did not need a resurrection.

I sense another 'trinity mystery' coming up.
---David8318 on 3/7/11

"Muslims...because they cannot." Warwick"(2)

That said, whether speaking to Muslims or anyone who is repulsed by Christendom's violent history, Jehovah's Witnesses have the unique freeness of speech to draw attention to a history of non-violence and political neutrality.

While Christians are told to be "ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you..." (1 Peter 3:15) the real identifying mark of true Christianity is highlighted by Jesus:

"By this shall all know that you are disciples of mine, if you have love amongst yourselves." John 13:35 Darby
---scott on 3/7/11

The Witnesses teach there are many gods. That JESUS is a created being. But JESUS created all things. Also there is only one true GOD. They admit JESUS is GOD just a lesser GOD. But there is only one GOD so JESUS must be GOD. Since he was not created for to create all things you have to exist before all things.

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

We are to honour the son as we honour the Father. John 5,23
---Samuel on 3/7/11

'Word of God or men'. char

The question is whether our theological conclusions are based on God's word or if we're twisting the scriptures to say what we want. The creator used the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages to record His inspired word. Do the so called 'proof texts' that we employ to defend the trinity hold up when compared to the Bible...looking closely and honestly at context and the meaning of words in those respective languages?

JWs are avid students of the bible and simply reject teachings that find their origins elsewhere.

"For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword...[it is] quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12 ASV
---scott on 3/7/11

Word of God is-not Michael

"My Lord and my God" (John 20:28)Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God. And {Christ did not correct him).Yeshua witnesses all things(Jn 1:48, 2:25, 6:64,14:30,21:17)He is all-powerful(Matt. 28:18, Heb. 1:3), sinless (John 8:46),eternal (Mic.5:2), and unchanging (Heb. 13:8).
Only God possesses these attributes,
His Word-that became flesh[Immanuel] declaration "Father and I are ONE"---must be true.
Greek-Alpha and Omega
Hebrew-Aleph to Tav

Beginning and End-idom for eternal
In the Beginning was the Word---If infact Michael is that Word-then he would have came out of the mouth of Yehovah and would be the one in the beginning---- Elohiym.
Jer 32:18
---char on 3/7/11


Recall the Bereans. They were described as having "more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Acts 17:10-12

We should not blindly accept any teaching that can't be supported scripturally. And since even the Catholic Encyclopedia says that the trinity "was not solidly established...prior to the end of the 4th century", common sense tells us to question its origin.

The trinity only appears "foolish' if it is based, not on God's wisdom but on men's.

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God." 1 Cor 3:19
---scott on 3/7/11

Scott, you have a problem. You are in a similar position to Muslims. In Australia we have unknowing people asking why Muslims do not integrate into Australian society. After all people of many, nations (even the English) have. Muslims have not integrated because they cannot. The Koran forbids it and their leaders enforce it.

You cannot integrate into Christian culture because you come from a different 'fold.' Your book forbids it and your leaders enforce it!

Others here, who oppose your views are not controlled by denominational doctrine, (as you and David are) but come from a Biblical point of view. I do not know their denomination. It matters not.
---Warwick on 3/7/11

Scott, we have been through this before, a few times.

Meizon, in the context Jesus used it means greater in position. Kreitton means better in quality or essence. Jesus uses meizon (greater) as both the Father and He are Creator, Redeemer and the Alpha and the Omega (therefore one and the same) This is why Jesus used greater, not better!

Scripture interprets Scripture is the rule.

For an American the president holds a greater (meizon) position than any other American, but is not in his essence any better (kreitton).

That is why John 14:28 has Jesus using greater (meizon) and Paul when comparing Jesus to angels(Hebrews 1:4) using better (kreitton) because He is in His essence God, and they are not.
---Warwick on 3/7/11

Scott & David: You may never understand what Warwick has been discussing with you because you limit yourself to interpretation of letters. God is Spirit, if you are not in His Spirit, the Holy Trinity will look like foolishness to you. I know you believe in God, pray that God should show you if Holy Trinity is True or False.
---Adetunj on 3/7/11

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"meizon and kreitton" Warwick (1)

SInce John only uses the word 'meizon' (not 'kreitton') in Jesus' declaration: "the Father is greater' than I", the question is not 'what other words mean but rather, 'what the word he used means?

Does greater mean greater or not? For your argument to make any sense you would have to establish that it does not.

John 10:29
My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater (meizon) than all, and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater (meizon) than his lord, neither he that is sent greater (meizon) than he that sent him.

---scott on 3/6/11

"meizon and kreitton" Warwick (2)

John 15:13
Greater (meizon) love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Hebrews 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater (meizon) and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building,

2 Peter 2:11
Whereas angels, which are greater (meizon) in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

So is Christ's 'greater' love not really greater? Are the angels not really 'greater' than wicked men?

John could have used another word. He didn't. He used 'meizon'. It means greater. And greater means greater.
---scott on 3/6/11

Who Spoke Bereshiyt?---Elohiym.Is 55:11So shall[My Word be that goeth[forth Out Of My Mouth][it shall Not Return unto Me void],but it shall accomplish that which [I please],and it shall prosper in the thing whereto [I sent it].Jn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you,[I go away,and come again unto you].If ye loved me,ye would rejoice,because I said,[I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I].

Return where?---Elohiym-[it shall not Return unto Me void].Jn 14:10 Believest thou not that [I Am In the Father, and The Father In Me?] [The Words that I Speak] unto you [I speak Not of Myself]: but [The Father That Dwelleth In Me, He Doeth The Works][Believe Me That I Am In The Father,and The Father In Me...
---char on 3/6/11

The more I read JW view-it appears it is full of teachings from theology--agreed or not agreed with.
Names-dates-doctrines etc...

Do you actually study the Word of God-or just the men who have studied and their Theology?
---char on 3/6/11

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Once again, I ask this question---Is this what JW believe?

(1) Jesus was a human incarnation of Michael the archangel, (2) at death he disappeared into nonexistence, body, soul, and spirit all gone into nothingness without a shred remaining ("God disposed of Jesus' body"--
---char on 3/6/11

1 JOHN 5,6 This is he who came by by water and blood - JESUS CHRIST: not only by water and blood, And it is the spirit who bears witness,because the spirit is truth.
1 JOHN 5:7 For there are three that bear witness, in heaven: the FATHER,the WORD, and the HOLY spirit, and these three are ONE.

( WHO invented the trinity - Answer - GOD )
---RICHARDC on 3/6/11

again I ask-What scripture states,that Jesus is Michael or vs. versa?

"one of the foremost princes" (Dan. 10:13), 2) "the prince of [Daniel's] people" (Dan. 10:21), 3) "the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel's] people" (Dan. 12:1), 4) the archangel who "had a difference with the devil and was disputing about Moses body" but "did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms" [Jude 9, and 5] a participant in heavenly conflict when "Michael and his angels battled with the dragon" [Rev. 12:7].

Witness which one of these verses states -Michael is Jesus Christ
---char on 3/6/11

Scott, slick cutting and pasting of JW antiChristian propaganda.

Now you attempt sleight of hand!

You wrote "The Father is greater than I." John 14:28:

I replied "In John 14:28 Jesus is not saying God is 'better' (Gk. Kreitton) but greater (Gk. Meizon). This refers to the Father's greater position in heaven, as regards Jesus lower position for a time, on earth."

"In human terms this equates to saying King Fred is greater (positionally) than Lord Bert. But Fred is not better, also being but a man, all created equal by God-Genesis 1:27."

You replied "John makes no reference to a 'oneness' regarding the Alpha/Omega, so this is off-topic and a red herring."

---Warwick on 3/5/11

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Scott my argument is correct because of the very different meaning of the two Greek words-meizon and kreitton.

The truth is demonstrated by Hebrews 1:4 "having become as much better (Gk. kreitton)than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they." Jesus is not only positionally higher than angels but better in kind and nature.

Jesus never said the Father was better than Him, but higher positionally during His earthly incarnation.

In Hebrews 2 we see Jesus Creator and Saviour, the Alpha and the Omega for a while made a little lower than the angels. But in Revelation we see Him again in His glory-King of Kings, Lord of Lords. No longer servant, little lower than angels, but God Almighty.
---Warwick on 3/5/11

David,'mystery' occurs numerous times throughout Scripture e.g. Daniel 2:18. and 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 "Listen, I tell you a mystery,: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

Interestingly your JW NWT translates 'mystery' as 'secret' which means the same as 'mystery."

The Holman Bible dictionary says mystery/secret is "something that could not be understood apart from divine revelation or explanation."

Do you imagine there are no mysteries? That man can understand the hidden things of God by human intellect. Fat chance!
---Warwick on 3/6/11

David8318: "The only 'Mystery' in the Bible is the one at Revelation 17:5"

Gee, my KJV has 23 scriptures in addition to Rev 17:5 containing the word "mystery" in the New Testament. It is quite mysterious how they disappeared from your Bible. Perhaps it is you, rather than Warwick, who is MYSTIC!

Here's a scripture for you:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Which of these three which Jesus mentioned is only imaginary?
---jerry6593 on 3/6/11

Scott, you said:

"Where does Justin say that "Jesus was also called Jehovah in the OT"? i'd like to add that reference to my files if you have it handy."

There is many passages that link Christ with Jehovah. Zechariah 12:10, here Jehovah is speaking and the description is to be applied clearly to Christ, "They shall look unto Me whom they have pierced"
Another is Jer. 22:5,6 where Christ is declared to be "Jehovah our righteousness" And there is many more.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/11

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\\I know that the trinity is manmade idea, & know God is seperate from his son,but same purpose.
---candice on 3/5/11\\

candice, the Bible is on one level a "manmade idea".

You don't actually think that it dropped down from heaven already written, do you?

Or that God didn't work through the vocabulary and styles of the writers?

Nobody ever said that the Father is not separate from the Son. They are, with the Holy Spirit, separate PERSONS. But they have the same NATURE.
---Cluny on 3/6/11

Jesus left his domain in Heaven and chose to SUBMIT himself to his FATHER(YHWH, the unspoken "name of the FATHER") himself to BE OUR REDEEMER. The ONLY one who couldfulfill the demands of the LAW, GOD HIMSElF. This submition is in "position" not in "nature", meaning is nature or origin is Diety. Thus, HIS continual reference to his NATURE, "I AM THE ALPHA AND OMEGA", "BEFORE ABRAHAM, I AM".
---DanP on 3/6/11

Are we not three part beings (spirit soul and body) made in the image and likeness of God. Then why is it so hard to believe God is a three part being?
---Jimi on 3/6/11


[Yehovah is]Heb 11:6
Yehovah spoke[Word]Is 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Yehovah moves-confirming His Word-In [Spirit].1 Cor 2(all)

1.Who spoke?--[Yehovah]
2.What did He speak?---[His Word]
3.How does He confirm His Word---[In Spirit].

Tri- in- unity

Yehovah is ehhad[one-unit]
Example:There is not one tree but a tree composed of units within the unity

Trunk-branches-leaves = One Tree.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one
Deut 6:4 ,Zech 14:9
---char on 3/6/11

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Scott this is why we shouldn't rely on church creeds,but scripture only.Why? because church creeds are written by man,like when the bible gets translated, & people make mistakes with their own ideas,opinions ,etc... I know that the trinity is manmade idea, & know God is seperate from his son,but same purpose.
---candice on 3/5/11

Justin & Church 'fathers' (1)


Where does Justin say that "Jesus was also called Jehovah in the OT"? i'd like to add that reference to my files if you have it handy.

The only reason I post comments by the 'fathers' is generally in response to someone who posts a patristic quote they feel supports the doctrine of the trinity (In this case Ruben) when other quotes from the same 'father' would suggest just the opposite and in many cases paint a totally different picture.

Keeping in mind these 'fathers' were not inspired and there are no original manuscripts (autographs) of their writings to examine, what we are left with is often contradictory.

For example: Continued...
---scott on 3/5/11

Justin & Church 'fathers' (2)

For Example...

On one hand, Justin calls Jesus "God" and on the other Justin defines God as Unbegotten (Apology, chapters 14, 25, 49, etc.). Yet, Justin clearly calls Jesus "begotten" and the "first-birth" of God. (Apology, chapters 21, 23, etc.) So if God is Unbegotten, while Jesus is begotten or first-birth of God, they are not the same, or equal. In whatever sense Justin is calling Jesus "God" or divine, he is not making this first-born Son equal to the Father, whom Justin calls the Unbegotten God.

Additionally Justin frequently calls Jesus an angel (Apology, 63) as well as "God". So...

---scott on 3/5/11


Switching subjects so soon?

John makes no reference to a 'oneness' regarding the Alpha/Omega, so this is off-topic and a red herring.

Again: Unless you can employ a specific scriptural reference that radically changes the meaning of 'Eis' (Gk one) when applied to the Father/Son relationship when compared to the Husband/Wife and the Disciple's unity (I previously/inaccurately said Christ/Disciple relationship), then your argument is simply without merit.

1st century Christians clearly understood this reference when applied to the marriage and their brotherly unity. John compares the later to the Christ/Father relationship. They certainly wouldn't have understood this to describe a mysterious binity.
---scott on 3/5/11

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"John 14:28 Jesus is not saying God is 'better' (Gk. Kreitton) but greater (Gk. Meizon)." Warwick

This is the silliest (non)argument that trinitarians make regarding this verse. Truly a special pleading.

Meizon (Strong's) "greater, larger, elder, stronger".

"This refers to...Jesus lower position for a time, on earth." warwick

Jesus never qualifies this declaration by saying: 'while on earth or for a time...the Father is greater'.

Rather it is in complete harmony with Paul's reference to Christ's subjection to the Father after his death and resurrection. 1 Cor 15:28

Christ also calls the father "His God" after his resurrection.
---scott on 3/5/11

lit.Gk: Jesus says: "You all heard that I told you: I go, and come for you. If you all loved me, you all joyful if for that saying: I am going for the Father, because the Father of me, being larger of me. The person that has seen me has seen The Father. Believe me that I in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me because of the very miracles' sake. The person that believes on me, believes not on me, but on him that sent me. And the person that sees me sees him that sent me. I and Father are one. I am the Alpha and the Omega, Beginning and Ultimate, which from being, and which to being, and which coming, The Almighty." Jn.14:28,9,11+ 12:44,45+ 10:30+ Rev.1:8.
---Eloy on 3/5/11

The Trinity, or Triune God is in the old testament also. When a person makes a serious effort to study the scriptures, they will discover "the Father and the Son and the Spirit" not only in the N.T., but also detailed in the O.T.: The Father- Dt.32:6+ 14:1, The Son- Dn.3:17,23-25+ The Trinity-Is.48:12,16, The Spirit- Gn.6:3+ 41:38+ Ps.139:7,8.
---Eloy on 3/5/11

Scott, Jesus shares numerous titles with the Father-Creator, Redeemer, the Alpha and the Omega etc so isn't straining after equality, just demonstrating obvious equality, by saying they are one.

In John 14:28 Jesus is not saying God is 'better' (Gk. Kreitton) but greater (Gk. Meizon). This refers to the Father's greater position in heaven, as regards Jesus lower position for a time, on earth.

In human terms this equates to saying King Fred is greater (positionally) than Lord Bert. But Fred is not better, also being but a man, all created equal by God-Genesis 1:27.
---Warwick on 3/5/11

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Scott, I concur God (in this case Isaiah in 43:11) says beside me there is no saviour.

But in opposition to your claim Acts 13:23 actually says Jesus is the Saviour. And Jude 21 says "..wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life." Who brings us to eternal life Scott? Our God and Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ!

Titus 1:3,4 indeed calls both God and Christ Jesus "our Saviour." Note not our Saviours. There is obviously only one Saviour and that is God. God is Saviour Jesus is Saviour just what Trinitarians say. But for the JW this Scripture and others are nonsense.

How many Creators do you have? How many Saviours? How many who are called THE Alpha and THE Omega?
---Warwick on 3/5/11

Mystic Warwick is back, propagating his trinitarian Babylonian mysteries. Mystic Warwick admits, 'Jesus fully God (Spirit) and fully man (flesh) the mystery!'

The only 'Mystery' in the Bible is the one at Revelation 17:5- 'And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: 'Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots.'

And that's exactly where Mystic Warwick's trinitarian beliefs originate- Babylon- known in the 'Lords Day' as 'Babylon the Great'.

If Mystic Warwick's trinitarian beliefs are a 'mystery' to him, he can hardly be in a position to insist I or anyone else is telling the truth or not!

Jehovah God is Creator & 'Alpha and Omega'. Jesus is 'the Christ, the Son of God'- John 11:27. No mystery there!
---David8318 on 3/5/11

If one reads the Dialogue with Trypho, it is apparent that Jusitn Martyr is explaining to him that Jesus was also called Jehovah in the Old Testament and shows Trypho where this is and how it can not be the unbegotten God.
---MIcha9344 on 3/4/11

God 'invented' the Trinity. Gen.1:2 talks about the "Spirit of God", Isaiah 9:6 and 7:14 God spoke about the child of the virgin being "The Everlasting Father" and "Immanuel". The Only One God manifesting as the three.
---Adetunji on 3/4/11

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"Saying I and the Father are one He is...claiming equality with the Father." Warwick

This of course is circular reasoning. Circular because it relies upon its own proposition -- the equality of Father and Son-- in order to support the argument. Essentially, your argument assumes that its central point is already proven, and you therefore use an argument in support of itself.

Unless you can employ a specific scriptural reference that radically changes the meaning of 'Eis' (Gk one) when applied to the Father/Son relationship when compared to the Husband/Wife and Christ/Disciple relationship then your argument is, in reality, not one.


"The Father is greater than I." John 14:28:
---scott on 3/4/11

"Savior" - Warwick

Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior. At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: "Besides me there is no savior."

Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of "God our Savior," then of both "God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior." Evidence of a binity?

Jude 25 clarifies: "God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Also Acts 13:23.)

At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (mohshia, rendered "savior/deliverer") that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Judge Othniel, but that certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah.

Isaiah 43:1-12 shows that verse 11 means that Jehovah alone was the One who provided salvation or deliverance for Israel.
---scott on 3/4/11

The question is 'who invented the trinity?' It's not a lie to say the 'trinity' is not found in the Bible. So the purpose of using 'trinity' has been invented by people with the misconception that their god is a 3 in one being.

Even the misleading non-Biblical phrase 'three in one' is an invention by trinitarians to help themselves understand what they believe- otherwise they wouldn't have a clue. Trinitarians need more extra-Biblical expression to describe their non-Biblical dogma.

'Three in one', 'trinity', 'God the Father, God the Son, God the HS', are trinitarian terms not found in the Bible. They are trinitarian inventions used to describe a Hellenic falsehood.
---David8318 on 3/4/11

David, again deceitful. We have covered this over and over. You bob up, spout the same falsehoods, then disappear for a while, then reappear with more falsehoods.

Jesus is fully God, being Creator/Redeemer/the Alpha and the Omega-the First and The Last. How many Creators, Redeemers and Firsts and Lasts are there?

Colossians 2:9 ". in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form.

Jesus is also "flesh and blood" human-Hebrews 2:14 ,'Made like his brothers in every way", to "make atonement for the sins of the people." vs 17-by His death and resurrection.

Jesus fully God (Spirit) and fully man (flesh) the mystery!
---Warwick on 3/4/11

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Justin Martyr

Martyr's dialogue with Trypho (dialogue 5):

"For God alone is unbegotten and incorruptible, and therefore He is God, but all other things after Him are created and corruptible."

Regarding Jesus [in 56]

"There is said to be another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things, who is also called an angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things...wishes to announce to them."
---scott on 3/3/11

Samuel you can lie to the child because there is no truth in you. Scripture is blatantly clear, No idolater is a Christian, and no synagogue of satan nor white-washed tomb is the house of Christ nor the temple of the Holy Spirit. Therefore for you to tell an idolater he is a Christian is a bold face lie. Satan also believes in Christ, and he even trembles at him and falls down at his feet in fear, knowing that he is his Maker. But knowledge and confession is not obedience or following after righteousness, and therefore knowledge and confession is worthless and 100 percent dead without also having the required works and required obedience to him.
---Eloy on 3/3/11

Scott words are defined by context. Jesus says He and the Father are one and they are one as Scripture says. Both are called Creator,and Redeemer.

Joel 2:32 "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." While in Romans ch. 10 Paul calls Jesus Lord and writes "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord (Jesus) will be saved" vs 13.

In Isaiah 43:3 The Lord God is 'Saviour.' Also vs. 11. Luke 1:47 God is Saviour.

However in Titus 2:13 Jesus is '..great God and Saviour.' Also John 4:42.

Jesus is one with the Father in a unique way which is never applied to apostles or others.

In saying I and the Father are one He is therfore claiming equality with the Father.
---Warwick on 3/3/11

David is back creatively missunderstanding as usual.

I wrote "Trinity is a convenient term to describe Scriptural reality: that God is 3 in one: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not 3 Gods as you JW's falsely say."

I wrote this because David's oft quoted mantra is that Trinitarians believe in three Gods which is a lie. It 'lie' too harsh a word? Not at all because numerous Trinitarians have pointed out, to David, that we do not believe in 3 Gods but 3 persons in one God, but he continues to spout this falsehood. So 'lie' is but a descriptive word.
---Warwick on 3/3/11

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I would like to add I do not agree with the mainstream idea or terminology of the trinity.I go with what scripture says, aka Gods word. Some believe trinity is take for visual example.. 1 statue with a 3faced view (pagan orgin) saying God is 3in 1.Wrong! Scripture shows that God is seperate from Jesus physically.God is higher then his son.Some might agree on this part, but mentally think of the 3faced view told above.This is what i see in a local baptist church & it's not scriptual.

---candice on 3/3/11

I thank God He Is The Only One to worship. Psa. 111 v 9.

The concept for 3 gods & or persons Is here Matt.15 v 9, & Came from here 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15. Those that worship the gods of buddha, islam, hindu etc do fall inline also.

I accidentally put this Matt.15 v 9, in the wrong place in my first reply. It Does Go with Rev.17 v's 4 - 6.
---Lawrence on 3/3/11

trinity is apparent in the New Testament.and is as such not an invention rather a conclussion. looking at the baptism Of Jesus we see that Father Son and HOLY Spirit where SEPERATELY PRESENT and manifesting.
Jesus confirms in more then one occasion his dependance on the FFATHER. Jesus confirms that the FATHER Knows something that he does not know.
The SPIRIT IS SEND BY THE FATHER and BY THE SON. we aproach the father through the son etcetera. Fact is that i do not UNDERSTAND TRINITY LOGICALLY. however if i reject it, i make at least a quarter of the NT invallid. and i accuse Christ to be a liar on multiple occasions. so rather then rejecting because i am not understanding i take faith and accept it as it is.
---andy3996 on 3/3/11

To continue what i said, if we would accept everything because we can reason it, then obligated we will end up rejecting the sacrifice of JESUS. -Islam rejects it because they cannot believe GOD would let an anointed one to be "martyred".
think about it. Human sacrifice is an abomination to GOD and CURSED IS ANYONE who hangs on a tree. so logically his sacrifice is
abomination and curse to anyone who agrees. NEVERTHELESS, IN FAITH we agree that CHRIST ALONE could save us ONLY THROUGH the cross, and it is our salvation and eternal blessing today.
---andy3996 on 3/3/11

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" apostle is one with God, as is Jesus." Warwick

If the apostles are 'one' with Christ and Christ is God 'the Almighty' then the apostles are one with the Almighty as is Jesus. No?

"[John 17:21] in no way...qualifies John 10:30." Warwick

"That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us..."

"Just as" Gk 'Kathos'.

1. according as
a) just as, even as
b) in proportion as, in the degree that.

'Just as' means 'just as'.

If the Father/Son oneness suggests that 2 persons literally make one whole then scripturally this literal application applies to Christ's disciples.
---scott on 3/3/11

Wasn't it Benjamin Franklin? Oh no wait, he invented electricity. Maybe it was Abe Lincoln. No, he freed the slaves.
I believe God always existed and I believe the trinity always existed thus Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." And God told Moses, if they ask who sent you, tell them "I am" sent you. Note both Jesus and God called themselves I am. When Jesus left the earth, the Holy Spirit was sent to us to tabernacle with us. This was all God's doings..and God has always existed....none of this was "invented." They always existed.
---Donna5535 on 3/3/11

The doctrine of the Trinity was humans coming to grip with what JESUS said about himself. It took time and a lot of argument.

Back in the day when Scholars relied on scripture instead of tradition they tried to figure out what JESUS meant in the scripture. Not just saying that one of the popes of which there were several said so.

In the end the majority of churches came to understand that the Scriptures teach the trinity. One GOD three persons.

The SDA church went through this argument over a hundred years ago. Finally deciding that the RCC was correct on the Trinity. We did so from scripture.
---Samuel on 3/3/11

I had a young boy upset because a friend told him that being a Roman Catholic meant he was not a Christian. I asked does he belive JESUS died for his sins. He said yes. Then I told him he was a Christian and the RCC is a Christian church.

I believe the RCC has had and continues to have many good Christians who are part of the church. I do not agree with many of their doctrines and much of the history of their leaders is evil. Which they have a doctrine that says is okay.

But still they have much of their doctrine along with the orthodox that is correct.
---Samuel on 3/3/11

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Your understanding is wrong. The holy trinity, which is actually the triune God is found in the holy scriptures which were written thusands of years before any emperor came into being.
---Eloy on 3/3/11

"The doctrine developed gradually
---scott on 3/2/11

Maybe it did, but was taught:

Ignatius of Antioch

". . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

"We will prove that we worship him reasonably, for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things, but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:56 [A.D. 151]).
---Ruben on 3/3/11

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in 3 God's. Despite Warwick's gross misrepresentation, JW's believe in only one Almighty God- Jehovah. Neither Jesus Christ nor the Holy Spirit is referred to as Almighty God because the Bible does not teach they are.

However, Warwick insists on worshipping his triad of gods cunningly disguised as a 'triune-trinity' under the philosophy of Neo-platonism. Neo-platonism gives the likes of Warwick the ability to reconcile the irreconcilable- to worship Babylons triad as 'one God'. Plato's philosophy allows trinitarians to say 'we don't worship 3 God's, but 3 in one'.

The trinity is a pagan creation cultured out of Babylonian false deities and myths.
---David8318 on 3/3/11

The New Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' XIV, p. 299.

---scott on 3/2/11


That quote is not saying that early Christians and the apostolic Fathers didn't believe in the Trinity, just that the 'formulation' wasn't use. In fact the next verse, which you fail to write(Not shock) reads ""If it is clear on the one side that the dogma of the Trinity in the stricter sense of the word was a late arrival, product of three centuries' reflection and debate, it is just as clear on the opposite side that confession of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--and hence an elemental Trinitarianism--went back to the period of Christian origins" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, XIV, 300).
---Ruben on 3/3/11

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Cluny is that the same William barclay who wrote the book 'We Have Seen the Lord, The Passion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ"?
---Warwick on 3/3/11

Cluny says regarding William Barclay, 'For one thing, he never personally believed in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.' (3/2/11) That's hardly surprising given Barclay was a trinitarian, believing Jesus is Almighty God.

Trinitarians tend to have this dilemma. If Jesus is the eternal Almighty God who cannot die, then he was in no need of a resurrection. This is what the trinity dogma does to people's view of Jesus' resurrection. It's not William Barclay's disbelief in the resurrection that's shocking- it's that the trinity leads people to that conclusion.

The trinity destroys a fundamental teaching of the Bible- the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
---David8318 on 3/3/11

Ok Eloy, er, I mean, Cluny, whatever you say...
---micha9344 on 3/2/11

scott, I would be careful about quoting William Barclay for anything.

For one thing, he never personally believed in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And just because the Trinity is a post-Biblical formulation doesn't make it necessarily false.

Having the entire Bible between two covers is pretty much a development of the printing press. Usually copies of the Scripture were kept as Torahs, Psalters, Evangelia, Epistolaries, and the like--the Bible broken up for liturgical use by the different ministers who would be reading from one part or the other.

You don't actually think people in the first century went to church carrying their own copies of the Bible, do you?
---Cluny on 3/2/11

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\\'Helpmate: one who is a companion and helper, especially: wife, First Known Use: 1696'(1)
'Helpmeet: Helpmate, First Known Use: 1673'(1)\\

Re-read my post. These dictionaries simply proving my point.

The non-words "helpmate" and "helpmeet" are the result of misreading Genesis 2:18 KJV, or else a mondegreen, where "help meet" are two entirely separate words.
---Cluny on 3/2/11

Scott, that a doctrine was not defined until a certain date does not mean the foundation for it does not exist in Scripture.

I believe the reality was given a name to to counter heresies which were creeping into the church.

Trinity is a convenient term to describe Scriptural reality: that God is 3 in one: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not 3 Gods as you JW's falsely say.

As Jesus said 'The Father and I are one' John 10.30. Scripture calls both Creator, and Redeemer. Therefore one person!

In the past you have pointed out that Jesus also said He was one with the apostles. This in no way contradicts or qualifies John 10:30 because no apostle is one with God, as is Jesus.
---Warwick on 3/2/11

1 John 5:7

"The facts are as follows. First, it does not occur in any Greek manuscript earlier than the 14th century. The great manuscripts belong to the 3rd and 4th centuries [most scholars date them to the 4th and 5th centuries], and it occurs in none of them. None of the great early fathers of the Church knew it. Jerome's original version of the [Latin]Vulgate does not include it. The first person to quote it is a Spanish heretic called Priscillian who died in A. D. 385. Thereafter it crept gradually into the Latin texts of the New Testament although, as we have seen, it did not gain an entry to the Greek manuscripts."

Dr. William Barclay, Trinitarian Scholar, Professor- University of Glasgow.
---scott on 3/2/11

The New Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 299.

The New Encyclopdia Britannica:

"The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries...By the end of the 4th century...the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since." 1976, Micropdia, Vol. X, p. 126.
---scott on 3/2/11

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Carnal pagans leading to the roman cath church, & that light for such came from here, 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15. ( The trin church family body Rev.17 v's 4 - 6. )

The Father - Son & Holy Ghost IS ONE. Deu.6 v 4, Isa.9 v 6, Matt.15 v 9, John 8 v's 16 & 58, John 20 v's 27 - 28, Colo.2 v 9, Rev.22 v 13, & Jesus Christ Is His name.
---Lawrence on 3/2/11

'Helpmate: one who is a companion and helper, especially: wife, First Known Use: 1696'(1)
'Helpmeet: Helpmate, First Known Use: 1673'(1)
(1)Merriam-Webster online.
'...too fastidious to choose any helpmate from amongst those who were considered worthy...'-Excerpt from 'The Living Age', Vol. 32, Pg. 3, Littel, Son,and Company, 1852.
---micha9344 on 3/2/11

I checked two dictionaries that are used in the United States. "Helpmate" basically means a helping companion. The word is used now. And a Hebrew source shows that a "help" meant a . . . help or aid that can surround.

So, this would fit with being a companion, and the LORD made Eve so Adam would not be alone.

So, I guess you have a reason for denying this, but in the United States this word is used. And I have used it, and people seem to know what I mean.

And the Holy Spirit helps our Heavenly Father, by caring for the church . . . which corresponds to how a wife cares for the children. The Holy Spirit also prepares the Bride for the Groom, another thing a helpmate does, preparing her daughter (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/2/11

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