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Fire Purifies Or Consumes

Scripture shows fire purifies some people and consumes others. Why is that?

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 ---Leon on 3/11/11
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For the same reason that water can quench your thirst or cause you to drown. It is a resource that has many uses and you have to be careful with it.
---notlaw99 on 6/13/11

Why is that? Leon, "In a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Our God is a consuming fire. Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. As the fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff, [So shall the wicked'] root be as rottenness, because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. His winnowing fan [will be] in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn, but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire."
---Josef on 6/12/11

I feel like Im asking Bill Clinton if he had "sexual relations" with Monica Lewinski....
---Jasheradan on 4/2/11

So is that a yes or a no, Mark?
---Jasheradan on 4/2/11

A man calls upon the name of the Lord because he has been PERSUADED that he cannot save himself and He needs Christ.

The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin by his outside influence! He leads us to call upon the name of the Lord JESUS CHRIST so He can save us!

You are NOT saved, NOR do you have the power of Holy Spirit within your life until you call upon the name of Jesus!

What is so hard about this?
---Jasheradan on 4/2/11

Jesheradan, thanks for discussing these points with me. I leave you peace.
---Mark_V. on 4/2/11

Jasheradan Part 2: Such a person cannot change his own heart. His only hope of an amendment of life lies accordingly in a change of heart, which change is brought about by the sovereign re-creative power of the Holy Spirit who works when and where and how He pleases. Regenerating, making alive, the taking away of the heart of stone, can only be done by the Holy Spirit. And when that regeneration happens then you will believe and you will repent, and you will call on the name of the Lord. You know why? Because only His sheep hear His voice. Only those born of God.
---Mark_V. on 4/1/11

Mark, do you feel it is the responsibility of the MAN to repent of his sins and call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ?
---Jasheradan on 4/1/11

Jasheradan, Paul said concerning this topic.
"And if our Gospel is veiled it is veiled to them that parish, in whom the god of this world (by which he means the Devil) hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them"
Did you hear that? The ones who parish, have been blinded, will never believe the Gospel unless God exercises the right of releasing whom He will. For all born again Christians are ransomed sinners from that kingdom. Scripture declares that fallen men is a captive, a willing slave to sin, and entirely unable to deliver himself from its bondage and corruption. He has to be made willing. God makes him willing.
---Mark_V. on 4/1/11

Mark, do you feel it is the responsibility of the MAN to repent of his sins and call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ?

---Jasheradan on 4/1/11

Jesharadan, you are right, God did say,

"Also, Mark, Jesus Christ (who is God) told us to SEEK God and his righteousness."

That is very true. He told that to us who believe, and are born of God already. Who can understand His Word. For Scripture says,

"For I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: None is righteous, no, not one, no one understands, "no one seeks for God." All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong, no one does good, not even one" Romans 3:9-12.

So how can I be wrong? You want me to be wrong, when I am right. Listen to Scripture,
"together they have gone wrong"
---Mark_V. on 4/1/11

I believe anyone who comes to Christ without a repentant heart, turning from their old and turning to Jesus Christ FOR the forgiveness of their sin...must be following a BARNEY Jesus or some fun cartoon character...

Why did they trun to Him in the first place....Genuine faith brings a TRUE conversion bringing radical CHANGE, all right there through the Cross.

No Cross, No Christ! We preach CHRIST CRUCIFIED...for a reason.
---kathr4453 on 4/1/11

Absolutely allan. Look at all the truth coming from MarkV's lie...and all the wonderful testimonies from those along with well grounded scrpture we get to place here.

It isn't a waste of time.
---kathr4453 on 3/31/11

Fair enough, Alan.

Its hard to convince someone of the truth of scripture when they will only believe in a god who doesnt require anything of them... like repentance.
---Jasheradan on 3/31/11

MarkV will not be convinced by what Kathr or anyone else says.

But it is not a waste of time.

Whenever Mark puts forward his predestination doctrine, which says that we have no choice as to whether to accept Jesus's sacrifice for ourselves ...

Then those who beleive otherwise have the right to put their view that God does allow us to say "Yes please" or "No thank you"
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/31/11

I mean she is wasting her time trying to convince you that God doesnt predestine men to hell. Its obvious that you base your eternal security off of that fact so its not something you are going to be willing to reconsider, no matter what scripture says.

Also, Mark, Jesus Christ (who is God) told us to SEEK God and his righteousness.
---Jasheradan on 3/31/11

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Jasheradan, Kathr is wasting her time. Trying to change the meaning of another passage from God. The passage is not hard to understand. Only to those who insist on their own will no matter what God says. What has happened by me and others answering her, is that God made it possible for many to read passages they have overlooked. Compare what God's word say's to what we say. And permitting the Spirit to work in our lives. Such a God cannot be found out by searching. He can be known only as He is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit through the Word.
---Mark_V. on 3/31/11

Kathr, you are wasting your time.
---Jasheradan on 3/30/11

"But as many as received Him, "to them" He gave the right??(POWER, not RIGHT)to become children of God, "to those" who believe in His FAITH!! "who were" born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, "nor of the will of man" but of God." --.
---Mark_V. on 3/30/11

That is absolutely true MarkV.

I have to receive Jesus Christ to BECOME a Son. I become a begotten son THROUGH Jesus Christ. HE regenerates us, aka Born Again.

I cannot born again myself, or muster up all the self will in the world to born again myself. Why? Because we're Born Again of the Spirit OF THE LIFE OF CHRIST.

This can only happen BY FAITH, not self effort.
---kathr4453 on 3/30/11

MarkV, lets remember

The WORD of God is Living and powerful and sharper than a two edge sword piercing between soul and spirit, bone and marrow etc. God's Word is more powerful than all the depravity in man put together. One does not have to be Born Again FIRST for God's WORD to convict our conscience. After all, it's our sinful conscience that is being convicted, and showing us our need for Christ.

Some will come, and some will not. We see in Acts, when Stephen preached the POWER of God's word....their conscience was pricked...but THEY stoned Stephen.

So it's out of a convicted sinful conscience we have two choices....choose LIFE or choose death.
---kathr4453 on 3/30/11

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Kathr, I did not misunderstand you at all. In fact we went through this topic for a long time. But nevertheless I'm glad you admitted what you did for your sake. A contrite heart, broken heart, or a changed heart is done by the Spirit. Faith and repentance is granted by God through a conviction of the heart that you have sinned against God, those are all prior to our commitment, otherwise your commitment is false.

"But as many as received Him, "to them" He gave the right to become children of God, "to those" who believe in His name: "who were" born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, "nor of the will of man" but of God." John 1:12,13.
---Mark_V. on 3/30/11

MarkV, then you must have misunderstood what I said, and that does happen here often..

The difference between you and I was I came through Faith, and was Born again AFTER I placed my faith in Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 3/29/11

Kathr, I don't judge whether you are saved or not. That is not for me to worry about. It is up to you only. I only judged what you said before. Now you say:

"MarkV, another amazing thing happended when I placed my faith in Jesus Christ before conversion, bringing to Him a repentant heart, a sinful heart, a contrite heart..."

I really hope so, because before you said you had nothing of the kind, that you would get them after conversion, faith and a repented heart. I tried to tell you it was wrong what you had said, but you argued with me for so long. Now you say differently, which is great if that was the case. I suppose after all the verses I gave you, you realize what was truth. That is great.
---Mark_V. on 3/29/11

Leon, in the case of the word "fire" in Scripture, it has many meanings depending on the context of the message. Sometime judgment is referred as fire. Other times, just as literal fire, other times as the fire coming out of the presence of God, fire is also one of the symbols for hell, other times the tongue is referred as fire, each one's work is also revealed by fire, that is the fire of God's discerning Judgment. God also says, His Word is like a fire. So fire purifying someone, has to be God's Word. Jeremiah 23:29. which refers to God's Word has irresistible qualities to prevail over the deception in the shepherd's false messages.
---Mark_V. on 3/29/11

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Leviticus 16:14
And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward, and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.

Leviticus 16:15
Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

AND this is what was fulfilled in Jesus death and resurrection....

You cannot separate GRACE/MERCY from the Blood of Jesus Christ....unless you belong to a cult!
---kathr4453 on 3/29/11

Kathr, you can go on and on to try to justify what you say, but it will not change anything. Changing meanings does not change what is Truth already. It doesn't work. Scripture passages only have one meaning that God wanted to convey to us, it might have many applications, but only one meaning, no matter how many times you or anyone else want to change it. God's Word remains the same forever.
---Mark_V. on 3/29/11

MarkV, another amazing thing happended when I placed my faith in Jesus Christ before conversion, bringing to Him a repentant heart, a sinful heart, a contrite heart...

HE FORGAVE me all my sin. In that too, I rejoiced.

You see, my repentant heart was before my conversion...My New Heart came WITH my conversion.
---kathr4453 on 3/29/11

MarkV., The Statement that "GOD is willing that none perish." means what it says. But the word "willing" brings difficulty for some. The word "willing", in this context, means that GOD "desires" that no man perish. For GOD offers every man a choice. Either to follow Him or reject Him. He never forces His Desire on anyone. And, why is that? Because Love must be from one's own free will. Love is never forced. GOD enables man to love and follow Him, but, FIRST, the man has to want to. Even if one doesn't feel like they want to, but, they want to "want to", all they have to do is ask GOD to give them the desire to want Him, and He would grant that. But, it all starts with a person's FREE-CHOICE.
---Gordon on 3/29/11

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SAMUEL, Please, re-read my comments. I never said that "GOD was not in Hell". I said that the damned are SEPARATED from GOD. There's a difference. They have no saving Relationship with GOD. GOD controls Hell. YAHUSHUA (JESUS) Himself has been to Hell (but not in Torments). The tormenting Fires of Hell are controled by GOD Himself. Those Fires are one way that He expresses His Wrath and Anger on the Damned. The souls in Hell are "alive" in the fact that they are living, their conscious, they see, feel, hear and can think. But, they're called "dead" by GOD because they are stripped of every good thing that True Life consists of. And, in it's place, they have eternal pain, torments and suffering. As good as being dead.
---Gordon on 3/29/11

MarkV, I believe it is Jesus Christ LORD who comes with His saints, (that is us) executing judgment here on earth before the Great White Throne Judgment. And we know Jesus can in fact talk to sinners, as He did once before.

That no way proves God Himself is going to be in Hell, in outer darkness with the dead.
---kathr4453 on 3/29/11

MarkV, My Heart is changed by a NEW HEART, in that I rejoice....

A contrite heart is the old sinful heart isn't it? If you were given a "new heart", and the old was taken away why then are you begging, and what are you begging for?

The problem is you look in OT scripture before the Cross. OT Saints begged for mercy, as did David...before Calvary, before a New Heart was given.

If my conscience/heart has been purged by the Blood of Christ as is what happens upon conscience/Heart has been cleansed.,a New Heart given...and I REJOICE..I have nothing to BEG for, I have ALL a New Creature in Christ. My Old man is positionally crucified with Christ, and I rejoice again in that truth.
---kathr4453 on 3/29/11

Kathr, in answer to your prior comment, you said:

"How much begging does one need to do? How do you know you've begged enough to please God? Is it when you FEEL salvation is now by feeling and begging and not by faith??"

Scripture does not speak about begging or how much to beg to enter the kingdom of God. "Begging is a sign of a broken heart." Just begging for salvation will not get you into His kingdom, the heart has to be change by God already. If it is change, you will humble to Christ. We are saved "through faith," never once does Paul say that we are saved "on account" of faith (that is the meritorious cause).
---Mark_V. on 3/29/11

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Kathr, I agree with much of what you say about hell, but disagree with your last post.
"Hell is outer darkness, Hell is being cast FROM the presence of God. God cannot be in the pressence of SIN, this is why Jesus Christ came so WE through Christ can stand in His Presence.
But Jude 6:14,15 reveals to us,
"Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds (sins) which they have committed in an ungodly way"
This shows that God does stand before sinners with their sins written in the books. He will be also in Hell to execute that judgment. Also, God is Omnipresence.
---Mark_V. on 3/28/11

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God is LIGHT and in Him is no darkness.

David said, cast me not from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.

Cain was cast out of God's presence.

Hell is outer darkness, Hell is being cast FROM the presence of God. God cannot be in the pressence of SIN, this is why Jesus Christ came so WE through Christ can stand in His Presence.
---kathr4453 on 3/27/11

2 Peter 2:4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, --,

2 Peter 2:17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest, to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Jude 1:13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame, wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

"outer darkness" is another synonym for hell. It is a place of darkness. None of the presence of God is to be found in the place of outer darkness.
---kathr4453 on 3/27/11

Leon, Gordon is right when he said that God has revealed Himself all through Scripture. I totally agree. And since God is omnipotent and says, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" Is.46:10 and also says, "He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand,"
Now for the verses that state "not willing that any should perish," contradicts the very word of God. That would mean God has no control over people. He wants to save them but He cannot. When those words were written they were written for the sake of the elect. Not willing that any should perish, that is why He waits and is longsuffering. 2 Peter 3:9.
---Mark_V. on 3/26/11

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Leon, GOD has revealed all of the main basics of Who He is and what He is like in the Scriptures. We can, and should, shout to the World, that GOD is a GOD of Love, Mercy, Grace and Forgiveness, and that He is willing that none should perish, but, that all should come to Salvation through His Son YAHUSHUA (JESUS), as you've emphasized. But, if we do that, then, we have to balance that with a Warning of the Truth that He is also a GOD of Wrath and Judgment against sin and evil and that He will eternally punish those who refuse to repent of their sin and evil. Those two sides put together is GOD.
---Gordon on 3/25/11

Gordon: All of what you say about GOD is Scriptural & I applaud you for that. But, I'm saying there's an even bigger picture, of GOD, that can be derived from what Scripture says, e.g., HE WANTS NONE TO PERISH...
---Leon on 3/25/11

Samuel, I differ from Gordon only one thing, the none presence of God in hell, when you said,

Second you say that GOD is not in hell. But one of the main doctrines of all Churches is the Omnipresence of GOD. Those who are alive cannot go to where GOD is not. So do you say the churches teach a false doctrine?"
I believe different then he does. I believe that the problem with those going there is not separation from God, as they would love since they are now separated from God in a sense, but that it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.
---Mark_V. on 3/25/11

Leon, Please, I was not shouting. My computer does not have the "stress" key to "stress" the words I want to, as when I talk. So, I (have to) use CAPS for those words. I'm not a maniac and I don't shout at people on Christian Blog-Sites. So, back to the issue at hand... GOD is indeed a GOD of Mercy and Love, willing that none perish. But, He is equally a GOD of Wrath against sin and evil-doers who stubbornly refuse to repent and receive Salvation. His Wrath is expressed fully, ultimately and finally in Hell and in the everlasting Lake of Fire. Saying that GOD is ONLY a GOD of Love, Grace and Mercy...but "not full of Wrath at sin and the Damned" perverts the Truth of Who GOD is and what He is like. Again, JOHN 3:36.
---Gordon on 3/25/11

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Why are you shouting Gordon? :) If that's what you believe, then fine!

No offense intended, but I think your views are rather shortsighted regarding what Scripture says about God & eternity. You're missing the bigger picture. Hopefully, one day, you'll grow in your understanding of the matter.

I'm truly glad God is God (merciful, gracious, all knowing, all wise, loving redeemer of sin lost huemanity).
---Leon on 3/21/11

LEON, JESUS (YAHUSHUA) Himself has declared, in the Holy Bible, in JOHN 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath Everlasting Life: and he that...believeth not the Son...SHALL NOT see Life, but the Wrath of GOD abideth (REMAINS) on him." And, this statement was made in the context of "Eternity". The Believers have Everlasting Life (in Heaven) while the unbelievers SHALL NOT (definite, futuristic, unconditional FACT) ever see Life, much less ever experience it. The unbelievers will only know and experience forevermore the Wrath of GOD. The Anger of GOD, expressed by the Fires of Hell. There's some Scripture.
---Gordon on 3/21/11

Gordon: God made believers & non-believers. The life giving breath of God is in everyone. hE made a way of redemption,for everyone thru Jesus who paid for our sin at Calvary. All one must do is believe in Him to receive forgiveness of sin.

God is Lord over everything & everyone. (Ps. 24:1) I believe the full satisfaction of God's justice goes far beyond eternal torment in hell...the lake of fire. It demands reclamation! In the purging fire, unbelievers carry the full weight of their sin "FOREVER". It's not just for the sake of punishment, but for ultimate restoration to a loving God...

Unless the Lord says otherwise, I'll hold fast to this belief. :)
---Leon on 3/19/11

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Seems like Jesus had people living and dead at the same time...
Is His teaching false?
---micha9344 on 3/19/11

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Dear Gordan I have some problems with your statment. You say the people in hell are dead yet then say they are still alive. Because they have an eternal soul. But no where in the Bible is the words eternal soul. So you have them dead and alive at the same time.

Second you say that GOD is not in hell. But one of the main doctrines of all Churches is the Omnipresence of GOD. Those who are alive cannot go to where GOD is not. So do you say the churches teach a false doctrine?
---Samuel on 3/18/11

Leon, Those who are in Hell are not GOD's people. GOD is a GOD of the living, not of the dead. Those who are following the Light, which is YAHUSHUA (JESUS CHRIST) are the living. Those who are in their sins, and who die in their sins and go to Hell are the Dead. GOD is only the GOD of those who are Saints, who will dwell eternally in Heaven. Those in Hell are those who REFUSED to be a part of GOD, and therefore, will be eternally SEPARATED from GOD, and from His Love, Goodness and Mercies. Those in Hell and the Lake of Fire will only experience GOD's Wrath and Punishment throughout their soul's eternal existence.
---Gordon on 3/18/11

Gordon: I'm just a guy who thinks outside the box & yet within the perimeters of Scripture:

"The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: the world, and they that dwell therein." Ps. 24:1

We tend to put God in a box of our finite understanding & then with complete satisfaction say there, that's that! Well, I don't believe that's that simple. :)

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Is. 55:8-9

Severely punished, yes ~ discarded, NO! How long is eternity to God? Time is in eternity. Is it just possible there might be a realm that encompasses & exceeds eternity? God only knows!
---Leon on 3/18/11

Leon, I agree with what you last stated to me, except....I do not see the Fires of Hell (and the lake of Fire) as being fires for "purification". For, that would mean that they would someday be "purified". For, those who die in their sins and go to Hell are not set on fire to be purified, but, rather to be eternal punished. For Hell to have purifying fires smacks of "Purgatory", and that place does not exist.
---Gordon on 3/17/11

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1 Peter: 1:7-9 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Whom having not seen, ye love, in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

1 Peter: 1:22 ...

Fire does not add, only reveals or separates into basic elements.

Matt.25:33: "And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left." Salvation is in the essence of things, not in the fire.
---Nana on 3/16/11

True Kathr...eternity [forever]!

Gordon: Because believers have their sins forgiven in Jesus, while we yet live on earth, we are tried (purged & purified) in the fire of God's truth (Jn. 14:6) ~ His Word. But, at death, unbelievers go thru an excruciating purging & purification process in hell & lake of fire. This process takes "forever" (however long that is :]) to reclaim them to God. Do you agree?

It kinda reminds me of when I was a child & my loving Dad ocassionally said, "I'm going to beat the devil out of you!" when I had been a bad boy. So, he didn't spare the rod, but fired up my behind (lower posterior anatomy).

Does this help Cluny? :)
---Leon on 3/16/11

LEON, It's like the fire that is on Earth. It can be used to cook food, light up a room, heat a house, etc. While, at the same time, it can be used to destroy things. And, it can seriously burn people, even some fatally. So it is in the Spiritual Realm. Those who are destined for Heaven will be purified by "Fire" to prepare them for Heaven. While, those in Hell will be tormented by (literal) fires without being completely consumed. But, tormented in pain in destruction.
---Gordon on 3/14/11

As Christians have explained it to me, the fires of hell will neither purify nor consume. The billions of people there will stay alive and as nasty as ever, only they will also smell burnt. Hell will remain as a big blotch on the universe forever.
---John.usa on 3/13/11

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Leon, John the Baptist stated, and He will baptize you with fire.....THAT is the purifying fire.

Unbelivers do not have THIS FIRE.

So we have a fire within, AND A FIRE WIGHOUT. Those who do not have a fire within...controlled by God, will be consumed and burned by a fire without...

People have a choice....1.)receive the purifying fire of Jesus Christ,

2.)or face the lake of fire for all etenity.
---kathr4453 on 3/13/11

fire itself does not purify. the firing process purifies.
---aka on 3/12/11

"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

Fire can burn trash, or make chicken finger-licking good (c: It depends on the nature of what is in the fire.

If you are a wheeler and dealer, squealing around doing your own thing . . . this is why you can wake up, in the morning, smelling and feeling like burnt rubber!

But in Jesus' love, being unselfish, "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29)

Selfishness makes us smelly in the fire.

A healthy plant in the sunshine will grow, but a plant with bad roots can dry out and become hard, in that same loving sunshine > Romans 9:18. We need the living and loving waters of Jesus (John 7:37-39).
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/11/11

I'm don't understand your question.

Can you elaborate?
---Cluny on 3/11/11

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Deu 4:24-25 For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God. When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt [yourselves], and make a graven image, [or] the likeness of any [thing], and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
The wrath of a consuming fire or the refinement of a purifying fire, your choice...
Luk 3:16b ...he shall baptize (immerse) you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
---micha9344 on 3/11/11

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