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Salvation Up To God Or You

How does man's "freewill" fit Matthew 6:10, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44
Is your salvation up to you or to God?

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 ---Donna66 on 3/31/11
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"And if you say you have faith, where did it come from and how did you receive it? By your own free-will or God's free-will?"

By our acceptance of God's gift
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/4/11

Its one thing when you believe in Christ. Jas 2:19
Its something else when you believe Christ!
Really it is.

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

You can think all you want. But if you dont know the truth, you know nothing!
If you know the truth and you reject it, again you know nothing.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Why would a man reject the truth?
Because he cant believe it!
The same words will judge him.

Rev 21:5
---TheSeg on 4/4/11

" And if one is not "born of the Spirit by the will of God", he can pray all he wants to but that prayer falls on deaf ears.christan///

christan, no where anywhwre in scripture is anyone born of the Spirit by the WILL OF GOD. That is a LIE.

Please find any scripture saying we are born again by the WILL of God

We are Born of the Spirit of the LIFE OF CHRIST, WHEN we place our faith in Him, are identified with His Death AND Raised up together her with Him a New Creature.

You have completely kicked Jesus to the curb, stating you don't need Christ at all.

We are Born OF GOD, not born by the will of God....BIG Difference.
---kathr4453 on 4/4/11

John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

People PLEASE read this verse Calvinists twist. They keep seeing the word WILL, and think we are Born of the Will of God...

It says, we are BORN OF GOD.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Again, it does not say by teh WILL of God.

AND christan does not have a grammar problem.
---kathr4453 on 4/4/11

nana, it's HYPER-Calvinism who believe in ONLY Special Grace.

It's Calvinism, ( or at least that person's interpretation that believe in Special Grace and Common Grace. Both are wrong.

Nana, no two Calvinist's believe alike. To try to research it would drive you crazy.

But Yes I agree, these here on line are HYPER Calvinists, of which they deny
---kathr4453 on 4/4/11

"Salvation is both of US and of GOD." Lutherist

Seems Martin Luther's teachings didn't penetrate your heart one bit. Sharing glory with God is the worst thing a man can try and do, remember the garden in Genesis? Harken unto the Words of God,

"For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it:
for how should my name be polluted?
and I will not give my glory unto another."

Isaiah 48:11

Salvation is a very personal work of God and man is but a recipient of His mercy and grace. He is a jealous God, or did you not know this?
---christan on 4/4/11

Other faiths outside of Christianity say they pray. People who claim to be Christians also say they pray, but forget that Jesus declared "God is Spirit and those who worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth." And if one is not "born of the Spirit by the will of God", he can pray all he wants to but that prayer falls on deaf ears.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6 - Praying without faith can never please God. And if you say you have faith, where did it come from and how did you receive it? By your own free-will or God's free-will?
---christan on 4/4/11

You answered your own question with your question.
John 6:44.

No man can come to me EXCEPT THE FATHER SEND HIM means just what is says, duh?
---larry on 4/4/11

Salvation is both of US and of GOD.

Adam and Eve utterly failed the test of Godlike personal holiness when they ate from the TREE of Gods judgment. The impossible demands of Godlike personal holiness written in stone (Ten Commandments) should completely crush all pride and hope in ourselves. We can never measure up to Godlike holiness! Only Christ did that! Being willing to see this truth, is COMPLETELY UP TO US!

After we have seen the truth about ourselves, the only solution to our hopeless situation can be offered. When we decide to reach out to Christ, God can then give us the gift of FAITH to trust completely in Christ to cover our sin and shame. The gift of Faith is COMPLETELY FROM GOD!
---Lutherist on 4/4/11

"HERE we are attacked by HYPER Calvinists."
---kathr4453 on 4/4/11

Agree and that is the point I've been trying to make.

"Calvin/Hyper Calvin wrongly use and interpret GRACE not according to scripture."
Agree with that also, so stop telling me I did or did not read completely. It is not my
intention at this point to tackle Calvinism. Only to show that these cats are not Calvinist.
---Nana on 4/4/11

I am not defending Calvinism. -----
---Nana on 4/3/11

Nana, you obviously did not read the whole article.

Calvin/Hyper Calvin wrongly use and interpret GRACE not according to scripture.

How can anyone say that Grace is either common or special. Some get common grace, some get special grace???/ What the heck is that nonsense.

Some get a special portion of Christ Crucified and Risen, and others get a common dose of Christ Crucified and risen.??? Their both wing-nuts!

HERE we are attacked by HYPER Calvinists.
---kathr4453 on 4/4/11

MarkV, do you call us liars when we give YOU God's Word???

So who here has authority over another to Give God's Word???

The Holy Spirit is our teacher, and enlightens us in God's Word.

MarkV YOU are Not God, you are not the Word, You are Not Jesus, you are NOT the Holy Spirit.

Please get over yourself. You are just another Joe Smoe forcing his interpretation down everyone's throat. Ya know, if people don't believe what I have learned and placed here, OH WELL! It's not my responsibility to do any more than that.

You can take it or leave it...

Why do YOU take it so personally? It's not YOUR WORD! It's God's word....He'll deal with it!
---kathr4453 on 4/4/11

I am not defending Calvinism. The point is that you call these people here calvinists who do not fit Calvin's belief on the paragraph I quoted which is attributed to Calvin. By the way, there is nothing wrong with that which Calvin is quoted as saying in just the section posted by me.
---Nana on 4/3/11

Alan, I do not want you or Kathr to pray for me, after calling me a liar when I give you God's Word. You stump on the Truth, reject it, and call it a lie. But Jesus said,

"If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God, nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word" You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do."

You also reject the Word of God I give you from Jesus own Words. "because you are not able to listen to My word" Jesus said. No ability. none whatsoever. Only those born of God are able to listen to the Words of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 4/3/11

Paul, so the Scriptures presented tells you that I am limiting God in salvation? Over and over we have discussed this with Scripture backing that Christ died only for "His people". And I ask you, is everybody "his people"? You decline to answer but only show me "whosoever", and form a doctrine of free-will without confirming with other Scriptures.

To me if Scripture cannot confirm Scripture, then I know it's not from God but from the deceiver. But I doubt you apply this principle.
---christan on 4/4/11

Let's keep in mine michael_e, that Salvation is OF the Jews, therefore even though the Gospels were written when Jesus came to His own, the Jews...that SAME salvation is also the very same salvation to Gentiles.

That is why whosoever will is so wonderfil, meaning INDIVIDUALS to salvation....and not just a Nation.

Although the Nation rejected Christ as their KING, individual Jews were/ are saved by Grace through Faith.
---kathr4453 on 4/4/11

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Paul, you said to Christian:

"I will continue on proclaiming that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. And guess what, If they repent and trust in the name of Jesus they will be saved."

That is all you can do Paul. Bring the gospel, Because whosoever does call on the name of the Lord and believe with their hearts, will be saved. That is the Truth. We don't know who the chosen one's are. No one does but God. The message Christian and I bring and some others is not for unbelievers. They hate God. The message is to those whom God had mercy on already. You. Believers who want to take the glory that belongs to Christ for themselves.
---Mark_V. on 4/4/11

the only part that we have is our free will choice whether as individuals we choose to believe or not.
---tom2 on 4/4/11

Nana, the article is Calvin VS Hyper Calvin.

,Hyper-Calvinists reject the doctrine of common grace. According to them, God hates all unbelievers, and works all things towards their destruction.2 One of the favourite proof texts cited is Mal 1:2-3 (Rom 9:13). This passage does speak of God hating the wicked, but the Hyper-Calvinistic interpretation is flawed because of its failure to distinguish between common grace and special grace.

However there is no such thing as common Grace ans Special Grace...

GRACE is Christ Crucified and Risen...NOT picking and Choosing anyone to salvation.

God choosing Jacob/Israel was for service not salvation.

God told Rebecca, in you belly are TWO NATIONS!!!
---kathr4453 on 4/3/11

Salvation was God's Plan from before the foundation of the World. God knew before we were even created we would sin. Christ was for-ordained from before the foundation of the world.

So certainly salvation has always been God's plan...before we were even born.

All this...i'm a worm, i'm not worthy etc, is really a non issue. If we were so unworthy, we would never have been created in the first place, Christ would not have been for-ordained at all.

So, this false humility is nonsense...

Christ already planned to die for your sin, so He could save, sanctify and share His eternal Glory with you, for the purpose of bringing us into Glory.
---kathr4453 on 4/3/11

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I hope for your sake that God is wiling to hear your justification of exempting people from HIS SALVATION.

I will continue on proclaiming that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

And guess what, If they repent and trust in the name of Jesus they will be saved.

So carry on as you were, but I'll never limit God and pray He saves every one on the earth for unlike some, I don't desire to see no one in hell.
I pray you will be turned and proclaim the saving Gospel to all you encounter.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 4/3/11

"On Acts 2:21, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Calvin commented,

So however much a man may be overwhelmed in the gulf of misery there is yet set before him a way of escape. We must also observe the universal word, whosoever. For God admits all men to Himself without exception and by this means invites them to salvation, Therefore since no man is excluded from calling upon God the gate of salvation is set open to all. There is nothing else to hinder us from entering, but our own unbelief.6"

From a web article, "Hyper-Calvinism in the Light of Calvin"

kathr4453, from the above, these here are not Calvinists.
---Nana on 4/3/11

Alan I agree we all should pray for MarkV. His bitterness is so obvious. It is funny however MarkV acts like a woman, talks like a women, is catty like a woman, and I believe MarkV IS a woman.

No man on here talks such cattyness as MarkV does.

Why markv do you constantly bring up my's so obvious you really hate me, anyone who believes the same way I do, and actually believe I influenced them...Hardly! you even said once, " She has a following here" and then went off then too.

These people have known the Lord long before ever meeting me here on line.

Your constant bringing up my name and comparing yourself to me is not christlike. Your pride, envy and flesh are hanging out in the wind.
---kathr4453 on 4/3/11

It was in God's plan all along from eternity that His people will comprise "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues". And when Christ came, He made it clear to Nicodemus, a Pharisee that "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Those only born of the flesh are never going to heaven, period. And a slap to the face of the Jews, Christ declared, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
---christan on 4/3/11

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on another blog, Mark said "Alan, what you call a lie is the Truth and you just refuse to admit it. When you say you can choose Christ while lost with what you call free will whenever you want to, you are saying that God does not rule you. Yet if it was not for God you would still be heading for hell"

Mark ... I said "Thank you" to God.

And now God rules me.
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/3/11

The argument was WHOSOEVER will...and christan said the whosoevers were MY PEOPLE the secret elect only...

Priests in Israel sacrificed every day,they also had the day of atonement once a year, FOR THEIR SIN to be covered. The knew the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin.
When Jesus was born THEY KNEW, Jesus was the Savior to TAKE AWAY/forgive /save from sin, and save His People Israel from their sin. Even John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the SIN OF THE WORLD". Here John didn't narrow down to Just Israel).

WHO SO EVER WILL may come to have Jesus take away forever once and for all your sin. Just come...He promised He would...don't listen to calvinists.
---kathr4453 on 4/3/11

//---Rob on 4/2/11I believe the first Four Gospels of the New Tesatament were written to and talking about the Jews.//
Amen Rob
Rom 15:8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
---michael_e on 4/3/11

Exodus 3:7
And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows,

Exodus 3:10
Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt..

Exodus 5:1
And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, ...

WHEN calvinists understand this, they will also understand Romans 9!
---kathr4453 on 4/3/11

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Now christan and markv, you as Gentiles should be thrilled that John said "the whole world", that salvation wasn't for Israel alone. So the next time trav wants to tell you Israel alone, you too can say...FOR the whole world, which includes YOU, a Gentile. AND John 3:16 includes Gentiles when it states WHOSOEVER. Whosoever includes Gentiles....making sure you too know Jesus died for your sin.
---kathr4453 on 4/3/11

I think we should all pray for MarkV
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/3/11

Joshua 24.15
Deuteronomy 30.19
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/3/11

Paul, let Scripture stand before your very eyes again, I repeat,

"for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37, "the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." John 10:3

Keywords: "His people, All that the Father giveth me, calleth His own sheep by name."

Are all His people?
Did the Father give everyone to Him?
If yes, then no one should be in Hell.
He knows His sheep by their name, that's how intimate His love is for those whom He died for at Calvary.
---christan on 4/3/11

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Paul, remember this declaration by the Lord Jesus Christ?

"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 22:14

This verse clearly confirms Paul's teaching of election in Romans 9 to be unconditional and rejected by many who even call themselves followers and disciples of Christ. The call of the Gospel is universal as commanded by Christ before He ascended to the Father, but the election has been done and complete from eternity by the Father. Only God knows who He has chosen and these will receive Christ through Faith.

Mind you that election is taught in the Scripture, only to be brushed aside by fools.
---christan on 4/3/11

EPHESAINS 1,4 Just as he chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and with out blame before him in love.

1 JOHN 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you appointed you that you should bear fruit,and that your father should remain,that what ever you and the father in my name He may give you.

1 PETER 2:9 But you are a chosen generation,royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
---RICHARDC on 4/3/11

God created man in HIs image. that means that man has his own free will to be able to do anything. In order for God to draw anyone to Him, a person has to make a choice to remain close to God as God does not impose Himself. John 6:66-67. When Paul was persecuting the church he thought he was serving God. God looked at his heart, his desire and commitment...and brought salvation to him. In the same way God does not use a non willing rebellious person. you may be making mistakes, but God looks at the intentions
---delfina on 4/3/11

Why don't we just throw out all of the New Testament, or let's just throw out everything Jesus said, because it all belongs to Israel. Nothing pertains to the whole world. In fact lets just say, that any one not from Israel has zero chance of entering God's Kingdom. All churches should recall all their missionaries from every country, for their work is useless. And in the process lets send all sinners from Israel to the U.K. and to Kathr house because people there are smarter and they can become smarter too so they can also choose Christ. Because they figured out how to enter the kingdom of God, through another door. Honor and glory to Kathr for been smart where others were not.
---Mark_V on 4/3/11

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Assure me with a scripture that states that not your interpretation of things.

Show me a scripture that says He only died for a select FEW.

---paul on 4/3/11

I believe the first Four Gospels of the New Tesatament were written to and talking about the Jews.

I live in the United States. I believe it began as a Christian and God Fearing Nation, but today, it is so very far from being a Christian Nation!
---Rob on 4/2/11

christan, His People, My people is Israel...

We've discussed this before, If my people who are called by my name humble thenselves and turn from their wiched ways I WILL HEAL THEIR LAND.. When were you ever given land, that you defiled out of sin and rebellion, and were called to repent so the Land God Gave you would be healed?

Now you know salvation is not land healing correct?

So if you say you are My People, meaning those God picked ut before hand, how do you explain MY PEOPLE Israel...who obviously were not all saved even though God calls them My People.

There is no assurance of salvation in your thinking you are MY PEOPLE.

Exactly WHEN did you become "a MY PEOPLE"???
---kathr4453 on 4/2/11

"Whosoever means who-so-ever" Paul

If that's your understanding even after reading the Scriptures, that's your opinion too. Because if it means what you think, you're going to have big problems when other Scripture is presented, example

"for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37, "the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." John 10:3

Scripture refers to a particular group of people, "His people" and I assure you that not everyone is His people.
---christan on 4/2/11

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It is He who wills it toward ALL man kind.

You should conclude you remarks with IMHO or IMOT because you state opinion and interpretation as the Gospel which it is not.

Whosoever means who-so-ever, that is pretty plain I feel, but you have the right to your OPINION.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 4/2/11

Paul, when Scripture says "they repented not", it simply means they couldn't repent because God never work His grace in them. All have sinned against God. However, Scripture declares that "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:15,16

God declares that mercy will only be shown to those whom He loved from eternity. Again, "whosoever" refers to only "those whom the Father has given to Christ". "Whosoever" does not mean anyone outside the election of God in Christ, which freewillers like to suggest.
---christan on 4/2/11

David, "Choosing who we want to serve, be it GOD or satan and self" IS free-will.
---Gordon on 4/1/11

Gordon and Alan
Do you sin?
If you do, why do you sin?
Do you want to sin?
If you sin and your desire is to please God, then isn't sin against your will?

How can you claim to have free will, when you do that which you do not want to do?
Many people believe they have defeated Satan, but if they have, they would not sin.
---David on 4/2/11

Again, Salvation is all of God. There is no one or anything that has more power then God. The question is, "were you saved by your own free will or by the free will of God?"
Most of you choose your own free will as was said before That God "cannot" impose His will on you. Suggesting you made the right choice where others didn't. Somehow within you, there was something special others don't have. Maybe you are smarter then they. The smarter ones get heaven, the others who are not smart as you get hell. Which means that "whosoever" is smarter gets life, and "Whosoever" is not gets hell. Only a carnal mind, which is oppose to the will of God can come out with that from Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 4/2/11

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Part 2: then they give excuses by drawing passages out of context when they say,
"Why does He say WHOSOEVER calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved?"
Those that were smarter or the "whosoever"
Then they give another passage,
"I stand at the door and knock if ANY man opens I will?"

That passage is not saying He is at the door to our hearts and knocking, in fact He is standing at the door of the Laodicean Church. And if anyone was saved they would hear and open the door.
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches"
---Mark_V. on 4/2/11

Regrettably Leslie, you dont know what you are talking about in your post 4/1/11, YHWH's selection of the elect is described in the Ephesians Chapter 1 and Christ death only for the elect that YHWH has given him is told in John Chapter 17. Salvation is by SELECTION ONLY YHWH's offer of grace is irrespirable. St. Paul did not want to be a Christian and Jonah did not want to go to YHWH wanted him to preach. But WHWH made both do what he wanted. Free Will had nothing to do with salvation it is a state of rebellion against YHWH. You need to get you act together Leslie as you are a living theological malignancy and a clear and present danger to others.
---Blogger9211 on 4/2/11

Most believers simply "BOOK" The Lord. They are PARTISAN (follow protocol) in order to accomplish what they think of as a heartfelt devotion, but there are also some who truly wish to "DRAW CLOSER" to God because they are truly in love with Him.

Even still, no matter how much a person wishes to draw closer, the corruption of this world makes it impossible to accomplish by any human efforts, BUT WHEN GOD SEES THAT TRUE DESIRE, He takes over and will DRAW THEM.

If you care about the will of God more than what was commanded to other people 2000 years ago, then your desire will reunite you with the creator.

James 4:8 "Draw near to God and he will draw near to you". It is up to YOU.
---more_excellent_way on 4/1/11

Donna66, The process is this..

Man has fallen. The result then is G-d will destroy ALL flesh (Man is contminated with sin and cannot enter Heaven)

BUT..It is up to man to reconcile with G-d. NOT for G-d to reconcile with man.


Man can not reach up to heaven anymore and G-d will not reconcile with sinful man. He must destroy man!


He will send his spirit all the way around and enter a man flesh and then push that Man up through the Cross(at this junction G-d kills all Flesh) then the Spirit continues upward to G-d (Ressurection of Christ).

Now man has reconciled with G-d through that spirit, that went beyond the death of the flesh and onward to Heaven.
---John on 4/1/11

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Why does it say they repented not if they were not given the opportunity.

What makes one more special then the other in Gods eyes who has no respect of persons.

Why does He say WHOSOEVER calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved?

I stand at the door and knock if ANY man opens I will?

Its not my will that ANY perish?

Explain all of these and don't get caught up on ONE chapter, their are 1188 other chapters that reveal Gods plan of salvation.

Chapter 9 in Romans is a powerful message, but is it at all possible that they made choices that caused them to be reprobates themselves?

---paul on 4/1/11

David ... you say .."Personally, I don't believe in free will, but I do believe that we have the right to choose as to whom we will serve.
If we choose God, he will lead us down the path that leads to life.
If we choose the world, Satan will lead us down the path that leads to death"

That surely is free-will?

So what free-will do you reckon we don't have?
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/1/11

donna66, who said an exact quote wasn't posted at the time it was said?? I usually do post their exact words. I just don't have time to hunt it down.
---kathr4453 on 4/1/11

Paul, you show me verses in Rev 9:20 and 16:11 that is a mere manifestation of people who were not chosen by God to salvation. Paul says they were "fitted to destruction" and these vessel of dishonor will do what they were created to do, to rebel against God. Doesn't Scripture teach this? Of course it does.

The discourse that we are having is simply you do not believe that God has created these people for the purpose of destruction as declared in the Scripture. Hypocritically many say we should take the Word of God for what it is but when we discuss Romans 9, you reject the very teaching of Paul and brew your own concoction of poison and drink it.
---christan on 4/1/11

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When God commanded, "Be Holy for I am Holy", are we to understand that a man born of sin can change himself to a Holy being? We are taught that God is Spirit and free-willers say we can convert ourselves into a Holy and Spiritual being? How? Just like in the garden, the creature has desire to become the creator, which God commanded our father Adam with deadly consequence.

Such teachings of freewill reminds me of the discourse between Joshua and the Israelites in Joshua 24:19 when he declared, "Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an Holy God, he is a jealous God, he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins."The keyword is "cannot" but freewillers say "can".
---christan on 4/1/11

kath4453-- Now how could anybody "prove" MarkV DID NOT say something?

Usually, when one claims someone has said something, an exact quote is expected. But never mind.
I wasn't disagreeing with your premise, so don't get too upset.
I guess I just interpret what MarkV says differently than you do.
---Donna66 on 4/1/11

Blogger9211 - Your last statement is FALSE. The Bible says that in order to be saved WE MUST believe and confess Jesus Christ rose from the dead and is Lord (Rom. 10:9-10) - that means we have the choice. If it were not so, then how come the Bible says that MANY will go on the road to distrution (Hell, no salvation). The Bible says I set before you life and death, you choose. We make the choice according to the Bible.
---Leslie on 4/1/11

Free will has nothing to do with your salvation. Salvation is by the invitation of YHWH only and His grace is irrespirable. God picked those he wanted in his family and rejected other according to his own reasons billions of years ago prior the creation process. That is why it is impossible to for anyone to be save currently. All evangelism can accomplish is make people aware that they may have been chosen and at the right time in their lives they will come to the realization if they were selected. Free will and salvation are mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive as Free Will is being in a state of rebellion against YHWH.
---Blogger9211 on 4/1/11

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David, "Choosing who we want to serve, be it GOD or satan and self" IS free-will. GOD created mankind in His Image, with our own, individual free-will, like GOD. For GOD is the Ultimate Free-Will Being. So, therefore, you do believe in "free-will". Which is the right way, anyway.
---Gordon on 4/1/11

The Father YAHUVEH sends out the Invitations to His Kingdom. These Invites are being sent out to the World. Those who want to go to Heaven can enter. But, it comes with a cost. The Cost of being able to have our sins forgiven has been paid by the shed Blood of the Lamb YAHUSHUA. But, the cost on OUR part is to trust and obey. If we really love GOD, we will obey Him. If we do not obey, we will be rejected and cast out into the Fire. YAHUSHUA died not just so we can "go to Heaven", but, also, that we will be washed from our sin, and REPENT of sinning any longer. We're to make that our Goal. For no one sinful can enter Heaven. GOD says "Be ye holy, for I AM Holy."
---Gordon on 4/1/11

How does man's "freewill" fit Matthew 6:10?

A man who sins.... is called a slave to sin.
A man who is born again.... is called a slave to righteousness.
We are either a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness according to Paul.
If this is true, where is the free will?

Personally, I don't believe in free will, but I do believe that we have the right to choose as to whom we will serve.
If we choose God, he will lead us down the path that leads to life.
If we choose the world, Satan will lead us down the path that leads to death.

Many are called, but why are all, not chosen?
---David on 4/1/11

God brought forth & gave His salvation plan. It's up to you to either accept it or reject it.
---Lawrence on 4/1/11

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"Is your salvation up to you or to God?"
In the words of Jesus "It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing. Therefore I have said to you that 'no one' can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Men are born again "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. [We are not saved] by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He [saves] us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,"
---Josef on 4/1/11

Donna66, I don't make up lies on line or anywhere else. But I will tell you markv stated it again just recently. I've been answering so many blogs here, and I really don't have the time to go and dig. If you accuse me, then it's really your responsibility to prove me wrong.

That's the reason I became so put off by that statement.

Markv doesn't understand the meaning of Mercy, and uses it in place of another word??? a sorrowful heart maybe.

That I may know Him, His lovingkindness, MERCY, and Judgement. Jeremiah 9:24

I know God's mercy, the way I know His LOVE, and grace and judgements and never had to beg for any. These are God's attributes bestowed on us after coming to Him.

---kathr4453 on 4/1/11


I mean you no disrespect but I dont know how long you have been studying the Word of God but you are seriously void of knowledge therein.

I see you espousing Christian talking points.

Please study to show thyself approved and dont regurgitate what you have heard.

YES There are those who will choose to go to hell.

Re 9:20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.

Re 16:11 They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

---paul on 4/1/11

Salvation is up to both you and God. ONLY God can draw you to Himself, but you make the decision to say "yes" or "no" to God.
---Leslie on 4/1/11

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Salvation is of God. The father draws but many refuse and never adequately pursue the matter of their own salvation. Their salvation will not be based upon their works, good habits, sacraments, being baptized, no no no rather their salvation is based on what the Lord Jesus Christ himself has done. But it is up to the individual to accept or receive what the Lord has done on his behalf. Those who cannot see the total degradation of man will never totally trust in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Consequently Hell is their lot!!!
---mima on 4/1/11

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in your personal vendetta with MarkV.
---Donna66 on 3/31/11

Donna66, PLEASE stop making false accusations about me. I have no personal vendetta against MarkV.

So, yes, stay out of it and stop causing trouble by your insinuations!

Like I said donna666, you can't ask anything of me unless you also throw mud or have an ulterior motive.

Until you show respect donna66, please don't ask or address me again on any issue!
---kathr4453 on 4/1/11

The Father FOREKNEW everything, it is not our business, it is GOD'S BUSINESS.

In scripture, if we do not have the right frame of mind and heart...we will STUMBLE and get lost in INTELLECTUAL understanding (the "strong delusion" was sent with "all WICKED deception")....

2 Thessalonians 2:10
"and with all wicked deception".

The strong delusion is for those who have idols/kingdoms IN THEIR HEART. How many believers do you suppose are ruled by kingdoms of pride/greed?...God has answered them PERSONALLY so they really won't understand the truth "AT ALL"...

Ezekiel 14:3
"be inquired of at AT ALL by them?

"mind our own affairs" (1 Thess. 4:11).
---more_excellent_way on 3/31/11

How our free will fits in with God's sovereignty and election is, as I've said elsewhere about a similar question, a mystery we won't understand this side of Heaven.

And there we won't have to understand, because we will be living it fully.
---Cluny on 3/31/11

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I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in your personal vendetta with MarkV. But then I read something that caused me to question my vision.
You said:
//Interestingly enough markv tells those who didn't beg they are not saved..

When I question him about it, he has told me over and over i am not saved, because I didn't beg.

Not too long ago I used to follow the conversations between you and MarkV (I've largely lost interest of late) but I never recall him saying this...or anything like it. Do you by chance have access to these actual comments of his? The actual words, not just your interpretation?
It's been a while, so if you can't find them, I'll just forget it. ( you won't, I know).
---Donna66 on 3/31/11

This free will vs no free will is really getting on my nerves.

christan if you have no free will, why arent you NOW SINLESS, because we know it is not God's will for christians to sin.

Did you receive your free will to sin AFTER your election? Why on earth would God do that?

They are teaching along with their bogus doctrine sinless perfection. Are you saying God is willing in you to sin NOW? Or are you saying you never sin?

If you sin now christan, it's YOUR WILL doing it!
---kathr4453 on 3/31/11

If all humans were created equal, how come so fewer choose Jesus so greatly good and loving, but so many given the choice do not choose. If all are equal in character, I mean, it would be everyone's nature to make the same good or bad choice, I consider. And the Bible does say God is our Potter > Romans 9:21. And the thanks is purely to God, not to us choosing while in our slavery to sin > "But God be thanked that though you were

slaves of sin,

yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17) While a person's nature is in slavery to sin, how can he or she have the character to do what is obedient???
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/31/11

The man-centered doctrine of free-will really makes the man sound stupid and more so, foolish. Imagine free-willers claim God offers man a choice of heaven or hell, the man who rejects, it is telling me he rather spend eternity in damnation than in paradise. It's like saying you offer someone a huge and beautiful mansion to live in but he rather live in the back alley without a roof over his head and freeze to death out in the cold. If that's what free-will is, I would rather not have one, not that there's such a thing as a man's free-will anyway.
---christan on 3/31/11

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God can draw a sinner to the Living Water, but He can't make him/her drink.
---aka on 3/31/11

When God created the heavens and the earth and everything in it, did He seek wisdom from His creation (man) before creating all things? Obviously not. And that's only the physical creation.

What more those who will be going to His Kingdom, whose will do you really think matters in the end. Man? I think not. It's all God's will to choose some for eternal salvation and others to eternal damnation. That's why He gave us His Word that we may know who He is and who we are. One's the Creator, the other the creature. Logically, the creature can never ever overpower the Creator.
---christan on 3/31/11

Paul, I'm not a Calvinist, in case you wondered.

But this is an interesting scripture.A number of people received the same invitation..about half received it sometime in advance of the event! How do you account for the difference between those who accepted and those who did not? The excuses that were offered were flimsy--and these were ones who had time to prepare! The only difference I see is that one group was NOT inclined to have respect for the Host at all, they just didn't care.
They probably forgot the whole incident...and were probably not invited again. The others had respect and appreciation for the host and enjoyed His feast.
We will never know what made the difference in mindset, to the same invitation!
---Donna66 on 3/31/11

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