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Believe In Total Depravity

Do you believe in total depravity?

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 ---mima on 4/17/11
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Thank you for the simplicity of your repply to TheSeg.
But, as our Lord said, John.14:29 :And now I have told you before it come to pass, that,
when it is come to pass, ye might believe."
There is no holding a conversation with those who hear not what you say. Who just keep
on spilling their own proofs to their views and in the end accuse you of saying what they
wanted you to say or what they in their stuppor 'tought' you said, Not What You Said.
---Nana on 4/22/11

I'm sure this will sound like a silly comment at this juncture.
It may even come off sounding like a "compromise".

But what if God allows men free-will in some things, but not in others?
He is still sovereign, because He alone decides when man can choose and what choices he will have.

Aside from the fact that it leaves us not always knowing whats God's will and what's our choice, is this idea contradicted in Scripture?
Does it have to be 100% one way or the other?
---Donna66 on 4/22/11

TheSeg, are you then saying only Gentiles are totally depraved, and Jews are not?

So Gentiles before Christ were depraved, but are Gentiles NOW depraved. Since there is no Temple anyone is keeping anyone out of..and we are told we ALL, Jew and Gentile alike, as God has all of us on the same playing fields, can NOW come Boldly to the Throne of grace..that Throne of Grace is now in Heaven, and not in Solomon's temple...
---kathr4453 on 4/22/11


If you are right. Then GOD is causing us to fight against you. We are saying the words and referring to the Scriptures he puts in our thoughts. So we cannot resist the will of GOD to agree with you.
---Samuel on 4/22/11

TheSeg, You know scripture talks about the foreigner who joins themselves to Israel. The foreigner is of coarse a Gentile.

When Joshua and Caleb went into the Promise Land, THEY KNEW who the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob were. Rahab and her family were saved...because WORD HAD GOTTEN OUT!

Even when Jonah disobeyed and all heck broke out..they asked him, WHO is your God...and they KNEW right away.

The Pharaoh that Joseph was sold into bondage to was blessed because he Honored Joseph's God.
---kathr4453 on 4/22/11

You know people talk about the law and the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

But when were these things given to the gentile? I dare say if you had even tried to go to the temple you would have been kill. Before Christ that is!

This started with Total Depravity and this is what man is without God.

Now we're moving in to freewill.
A-state-of-being I know takes you farther from God.
Why? Because, you are saying I can pick God or not!
And say God will not make me to anything.
Are you so blind?

This is a judgment of disbelief in The Lord Christ.
But you don't see it!
---TheSeg on 4/22/11

Mark ... You said ""I suppose three things make me answer as I do ... Second, when Christians speak against the Sovereign right for God to Rule over all creation"

You have now been asked three or four times to justify your statement. Who here has ever spoken against God being Sovereign?

We have differences over the nature of that Sovereignty, your view being that God does not allow freewill, while others say He is so great that He does allow freewill.

But no-one here has ever said God is not Sovereign, nor denied that He rules
When will you withdraw the calumny?
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/22/11

//If man is autonomous then God stops been Sovereign//--MarkV

You have a very shallow view of lordship and sovereignty, Mark. You mustve had a very hard childhood.

God does have sovereign control and He will show that control on judgement day. He is forewarning us that his will IS going to come to pass. There will be no rebellion in his kingdom which is coming in the near future. We simply live in the days in which the king is giving us an opportunity (by his grace) to turn and not be excluded from that kingdom. He has even offered us his very power to do so.
---Jasheradan on 4/22/11

Jesus taught, that man is powerless to come to Christ without Divine aid John 6:65.
---Mark_V. on 4/22/11

God gave the Holy Spirit as Divine aid, His Word, the Prophets, and the Law as divine Aid.

God also gave divine Aid in sending His Son to die for our sin. Now anyone can come TO THE FATHER through His Son.
---kathr4453 on 4/22/11

I believe in the Sovereignity of GOD. He gives us the free will.
---Samuel on 4/22/11

Jesus taught, that man is powerless to come to Christ without Divine aid John 6:65. Jesus also said, the flesh profits nothing. It is said, "what is wrong with God giving free will to sinners?" If man is autonomous then God stops been Sovereign. The root nomos is the Greek word for "law" the word autonomy means self Law. To be autonomous means to be a law unto oneself. An autonomous creature would be answerable to no one, he would have no Sovereign Lord. It is impossible to have a sovereign God existing at the same time as an autonomous creature. Autonomy implies absolute freedom. But the ultimate limit is the sovereignty of God.
---Mark_V. on 4/22/11

--Please quote for us when anyone here has spoken against God's Sovereignty? Or that He does not rule all creation?---Alan

I kinda like to see a response to Alan's request...
---CraigA on 4/22/11

MarkV ... The record is clear.

You have said just recently " "I suppose three things make me answer as I do ... Second, when Christians speak against the Sovereign right for God to Rule over all creation"

You know that no-one here has ever spoken against the Sovereign right for God to Rule over all creation.

In any case, as absolute Sovereign, God does not have or need "rights"... for there is no superior authority to grant them to Him.

The whole idea of God having rights implies that He has been granted rights by a superior authority. That is the heresy.
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/22/11

MarkV I am sorry I called you a heretic. I should have said mistaken.

God is supreme Sovereign.

That means He does not have or need rights. since rights are granted by a higher authority, and there's nothing higher than God.

And as supreme Sovereign, he allows freeWill. If you say a supreme Sovereign can't allow FreeWill, you are limiting His power to do as He likes.
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/22/11

The Sovereign will of God, according to HIS WORD, which our Sovereign God can not lie, promised to save those who believe.

God so hates sin, because sin kills and destroys His creation, He sent forth His Son. His Son became sin for us, and His Son bore in His own body the sin of the whole world.

God knew no matter how good anyone was, it still was not enough. It could never measure the righteousness of God.

Now those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for the forgivness of sin, GOD the Father Himself, acting according to His Sovereign right has imputed the Righteousness of CHRIST to that person. This alone is acceptable to God. Christ endured the JUDGEMENT of sin for you and me, and it's judgement has been satisfied.
---kathr4453 on 4/22/11

Exd 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
---donna66 on 4/21/11

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Alan, You have no rights on me but God. I have not responded to you for a long time because you complain. So I have not accused you of anything. You first called me a liar, and now a heretic. And you once called me a brother. You took the steps of Cain, who stabbed his own brother and killed him. Nothing you say from now on will ever change what you said about me. It's gone out to the world for all to hear. You accomplished what you wanted to accomplish that morning that sin was at your door just as Cain did.
---Mark_V. on 4/21/11


This is what Christ the lord answers them.
But, you're saying he made himself blind."

TheSeg on 4/21/11

Bye to you too for now but, on your way out know that
I did not say that the man in your specific example made
himself blind.

This I will say now, that you have made yourself blind to
all that I clearly stated to you.
Isaiah 54:15, Matthew 19:12 and Matthew 13:15.
---Nana on 4/21/11


This is what Christ the lord answers them.
But, you're saying he made himself blind.

Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

The lord also talked about Sinners, who are Blameless.
Mat 12:3-5

Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

I will say bye now.
But, one day we'll sit on a rock and talk some more.
May the lord of peace, glide you.
---TheSeg on 4/21/11

Isaiah 54:15 "Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake"

Seems clear that not all motion is of God, "...not by me..."
If we are servants, we are told what to do,you are not saying that
God does the work are you?

Matthew 19:12 "...and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it,
let him receive it."

Made themselves?

"There is nothing but God."
---TheSeg on 4/21/11

You must have time-warped yourself to the day before creation!
---Nana on 4/21/11

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You just said God doesnt blind men.
All I can say is, if not God then who?
I am sure you have an answer.

Someone once ask Christ.
Who did sin that this man (not all men, but this man) was born blind.
Who blinded him, if not God?
Some things are hard to see but not everything.
Most importantly why was he born blind?

The day is coming in which even the heavens will be shaken.
Maybe you can tell me, why the heavens?
Why shake the heaven?

In your mind shake the heavens right now.
What the only thing that didnt move?
Well then everything but that can be removed!
Is this also so hard to understand?
There is nothing but God.
---TheSeg on 4/21/11

MarkV ... these were your words: ..."Second, when Christians speak against the Sovereign right for God to Rule over all creation"

Please quote for us when anyone here has spoken against God's Sovereignty? Or that He does not rule all creation?

You know you will not be able to quote anyone.

Why do you find it necessary to twist what others say?
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/21/11

MarkV ... I am not stabbing you in the back, for I speak openly!

You continuously say I deny God's Sovereignty.

Now, as ever, you again twist my words. I did not call you a heretic for "speaking on behalf of God as Ruler of all things"

I called you a heretic for talking about God's rights. God IS God, IS absolute Ruler. God neither needs, nor has, rights, because rights are granted by some superior authority, and who is there to grant rights to God?

It is not I, but you who denies God's full Sovereignty, for you deny that He has the power to allow us FreeWill

Being absolute Ruler, or Sovereign, does not make Him a dictator.
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/21/11

When God said WHOSOEVER, He has enables everyone with the ability to not only respond but believe.

Why do those use FAITH the way WOF uses it, as though there is some sort of magical power in it, given only to certain people?

Wigglesworth though he could raise the dead if he could muster up enough FAITH to do it.

Is faith in yourself or in God?

Faith is an ATTITUDE. Not a Power.
---kathr4453 on 4/21/11

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It is God who gives sight to unbelievers. They are blinded from birth to all spiritual things of God
"Now Moses called all Israel and said to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land-the great trails which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. "yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see, and ears to hear, to this very day"

Today, Israel and those who are lost are still blind, and cannot see, and don't have have a heart to perceive the spiritual things of God, even though God performed those things in front of them. That is why they still reject Christ.
---Mark_V. on 4/21/11

"Well said and with this said.
Is this enabled ability in everyone?"

We all are born with possibilities, abilities require training. Not all have the same abilities,,ie, very young, very old, the feeble. Actually we are called to complement and help the less abled.

The thing about blindness, for the most, man make themselves blind not God blind them. Jesus would not have reasoned with the Pharisees as he did if they truly were deaf, dumb and blind. Some believed.

Matthew 13:15 "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed." Of course not all, Matt 31:32, some believed.
---Nana on 4/21/11

Alan, I have not accuse you of anything, when you say constantly, but you could not help stabbing me in the back again. You waited until you could not stand it anymore, sin was at the door and so you decided just like Cain to stab me again by now calling me a heretic for speaking on behalf of God as Ruler of all things. As Cain sinned, and killed his brother you have done it yourself all for the right of your free will, and not God's will.
---Mark_V. on 4/21/11

MarkV ... You are doing it again ... "I suppose three things make me answer as I do ... Second, when Christians speak against the Sovereign right for God to Rule over all creation"

You constantly accuse me and others of this. But I have NEVER read anyone here who has spoken against God's right to rule.

But in any case ... rights are granted ... so you speak heresy when you talk about God's rights. There is no-one who can grant rights to God ... not even you!

And God has not granted you the right to limit Him by telling Him that He has to rule by dictorship, and that He can't allow Free Will
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/21/11

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Petty, Mark. You just proved yourself someone who goes on the attack when your pride is hurt. It shouldnt make you angry that James knows the WCF better than you do, it should make you want to study it more before you make comments on it.

James is also correct in his claim that you are indeed very condescending to others. You promptly change your approach when its brought up in a blog so that others look like theyre making a false claim, but you quickly return to your old style. Its no doubt that this same haughty attitude that you have is what led you to cling so tightly to a doctrine that strokes your own ego.

Now the question is: Will you consider what Ive said an insult or just a truth that unfortunately hurts?
---Jasheradan on 4/21/11

Nana, I see the words.
God has enabled to heed and to understand and to also abide!
Well said and with this said.
Is this enabled ability in everyone?

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see, and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see, therefore your sin remaineth.

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,
do ye even so to them:
For this is the law and the prophets.
---TheSeg on 4/21/11

James L, many times I do respond wrong and sin, I agree with that. I know I should not but I'm still in the flesh though I don't want to answer that way. I suppose three things make me answer as I do, first, when Christians constantly speak against the gathering of believers (church). I find that instead of them complaining, they should be doing something to make changes themselves. But never speak against the Church that carries Jesus name on it, or question anyone love for Christ. Second, when Christians speak against the Sovereign right for God to Rule over all creation. For no man has power over God. Third, when they change the meaning of Scripture in order to argue. I apologize to you and do want to leave you peace.
---Mark_V. on 4/21/11


Well yes, not only heard and looked without, some ought to also look in.
Digressing, " I see God gave the law."
You forgot the prophets also and the simplicity of what is required of man whom
God has enabled to heed and to understand and to also abide. So simple that Christ says,
Matt.7:12 "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,
do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."
A part of man God has always required, therefore we see instruction as this:
John 15:4 "Abide in me, and I in you...".
Why do you have issue that I point and remind what our part is, abide? I am called to do that,
---Nana on 4/20/11

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only false religions teach this wicked idea ...nothing in Holy Scripture
---Rhonda on 4/20/11

Nana, you are defending your own actions which are sinful against a Holy God. In your standards you are a nice guy, but God's standards you fall short of the glory of God, everyone does. All descendants of Adam are condemned already and heading to hell. By God's Word. None love Christ unless God makes them able to love Him and believe in Him. And until that time comes, those without Christ will continue their path. Nothing can stop that unless a supernatural act of God intervenes. No man can save himself. God says, "without Me you can do nothing." He also says, "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps" Prov. 16:9.
---Mark_V. on 4/20/11

God bless you kathr4453
I love you, and you keep putting that candle in the window for man.
Let no man stand in the way of your faith!

By the way if anyone says anything about the dog remark. Funny!
Remember what the woman said to him!
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28

1Co 2:11-12

Now I dont agree with what you said.
But God blesses you for saying it.

Let understand something, you, me, Mary, Joe, Larry, Tom, Dick and Harry.
Only believe, because God revealed himself in some way, like Christ.
No one looked for God. They heard him then said, WOW!
Maybe Im wrong?
---TheSeg on 4/20/11


What I have a problem with:

trying to make an issue out of typos, etc. You, of all people. The way you butcher the English language.

ending your post with "HELLO!!" as if I'm some kind of idiot. I'd rather you call me an idiot outright.

saying "Now you say..." or "you claim..." and not quoting word-for-word what I wrote.

The other blog?

\\Wow, that's just too much. James complains about how much we should love God.\\

I don't see anything asked of me, MarkV. Just an accusation, out of context.

And to make it out like you asked a sincerre question?

Disagree all you want, from scripture. Until then, peace
---James_L on 4/20/11

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Explain DEATH ???? dont get much totaler than that!

Among Christians there are two main views of death. One it is when the soul leaves and goes to hades.

Then what I believe the Bible teaches. We are a soul. Genesis 3. When we die it is like a light going out. The Spirit that keeps us all alive goes to GOD and is kept there until the resurrection when it is united with the New Resurrected body of the Saints and the temporary body of the wicked. This is sometimes called soul sleep. For the dead are reffered to as sleeping.
---Samuel on 4/20/11

Do you believe Genesis 6:5 is true?
---larry on 4/20/11


"But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you, ..."
But he could not possibly be talking of all the people, short of including all of those who believed, Mary, Martha, Lazarus, JB, disciples, etc. Generalizations are dangerous and we see them here daily for example:

"All christians are good and noble"

compare with,

Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"
---Nana on 4/20/11

Explain DEATH ???? dont get much totaler than that!
---richard on 4/20/11

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i know, this idea that we are all Jeffery Dommers is rather insulting. To say we have no conscience would be to reduce us to an animal not knowing right from wrong. But again, even my dog knows right from wrong after being taught what is right and wrong.

The LAW did exactly that. Man is without excuse because God has made it perfectly clear what is right and wrong in His eyes. Also perfectly clear, is we all broke His Law. He did that so we would turn to Christ, just as Paul was our schoolmaster bringing us to Christ.
---kathr4453 on 4/20/11

The law tells the sinner they are doing wrong. Many people try to make themsleves believe they are good. But the job of the law is to show us we are sinners. Many people say I am not so bad GOD would not punish me.

When in fact the law places all under sin. Romans 3, 7

The HOLY SPIRIT is the one who convicts all of sin using the law. We are called to GOD by the HOLY SPIRIT.

Where I disagree with total depravity is that it is stated as we have to be forced to believe. Not GOD convicts and we choose. But GOD only loves some and only forces some to be saved.
---Samuel on 4/20/11


Yes before Christ, dont give me after!

But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you,
And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead, whereof we are witnesses.
And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Mat 23:30
Mat 23:31
God Bless
---TheSeg on 4/20/11

It depends on the individual. There are sinners and there are saints, sinuous and righteous, bad and good, disobedient and obedient, and that is why there are two eternal abodes created: the lake of fire and brimstone of hell, and the paradise and glory of heaven: the one destiny is for the unregenerate and the other is for the regenerate.
---Eloy on 4/20/11

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" I see God gave the law. But, I dont see where the laws made me believe Jesus.
I see where Jesus came and made me believe everything."
TheSeg on 4/20/11

Well TheSeg, you must be lacking vision for men before Christ spoke of him and knew of him and believed.
Acts 3:19-26.

Acts 3:19: "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord,"

This verse clearly addressed to the unrepented and unconverted, the unbelieving.
---Nana on 4/20/11

Im sorry, but where did God said, //(I allow) SINNERS, in their depraved state, the ability to BELIEVE Jesus Died for their sin.//

I see God gave the law. But, I dont see where the laws made me believe Jesus.
I see where Jesus came and made me believe everything.

Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

the ability to BELIEVE??
---TheSeg on 4/20/11

total Deparvity does not mean that all mankind is as bad as can be. It does mean that all that mankind does is of their own will is evil. Some is obvious such as murder, others are hiden from public view, such as giving to charity in hope of getting on God's good side and earning salvation. The deed is openly good but the motive is evil. Only what is done in God and for his glory only is righteous.
---Harold on 4/20/11

"No amount of works would get man back into any relationship with God."
kathr4453 on 4/20/11

Indeed, however a man's work, even his relationship with others could sever his relationship with God and their closeness (Luke 12:46).
John 8:29 "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone, for I do always those things that please him." (The good example)
---Nana on 4/20/11

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AFTER the fall of man, God instituted FAITH. No amount of works would get man back into any relationship with God. Now if Adam and Eve were first under a covenant of WORKS, then they did not live by Faith. WORKS is not of FAITH correct.
God planned to allow SINNERS, in their depraved state, the ability to BELIEVE Jesus Died for their sin. God Gave man His Word through the Prophets and Angels, and now has spoken to us His Son Jesus Christ. Many witnessed His death and resurrection of which they testified Jesus was in fact the Promised Son of God. This is the Gospel we must believe. Once you believe you are Justified by His Blood, being forgiven/mercy of your sin.
---kathr4453 on 4/20/11

well lets try to be totally honest without revealing it openly,as a guy at any time during your life,what thoughts are in your mind when you see a beautiful,well endowed woman?I rest my case.
---tom2 on 4/20/11

James L, I'm sorry you feel that way. I also sorry discussing topics of Scripture is not what you want to do. On the other blog you accuse me of stalking you and dancing and insulting you. If questioning you is insulting you, then everyone who questions you is insulting you. And they should not disagree.
I'm sorry you felt insulted when I disagreed with you concerning how much we should love God.
I would hope that if I mention anything like you, someone will question me, or as you put it, insult me. Because our love for God should never be question. I also noticed how you spoke to me and accuse me, and then close with, peace brother. That was very kind of you James. I turn my other cheek. I do hope you have peace today and always.
---Mark_V. on 4/20/11

I say we just drop it at this juncture. 50 more posts will fill up this topic, and I just don't think I have the mental energy to watch you dance through 49 of them with insults and emotional appeals to others who sympathize with your views.

I do believe I'll stop replying to any of your posts because your condescending attitude, insults, nitpicking typos, etc do nothing but put me in a frame of mind that is not honoring Christ.

Peace, brother.
---James_L on 4/19/11

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Well Mark V we agree that Total inablility is a better term.

I also agree that it is the HOLY SPIRIT who wakes us up. We are all sinners. Even when justified by the Grace of GOD. John tells us in First John never to say we are without sin. We are made righteous by the blood of JESUS alone. So GOD only justifies sinners. For all humans are sinners. Romans 3.

Donna you are right about most Calvanists. It is a sad state but many do not really know what their church actually teaches. Still I hope to see Calvan in heaven. So I can tell him he was wrong and we can praise GOD together.
---Samuel on 4/19/11

Sister Donna66, I want to thank you so much for your support of God and His sovereign right to not only rule in the affairs of man, but also for your support of what I have written. Also, feel free to question anything I might write that I might put down wrong for I do make mistakes as I have been corrected a few times. I also want to thank all the other brothers and sisters who do great work in answering. I use to thank others a lot, but I stopped because others who oppose me would attack them too, like they did with Shawn T. I sometimes don't know what my opposers argue about also, so I answer only those things I do understand, again thanks, peace be with you.
---Mark_V. on 4/19/11

MarkV -- I appreciate your posts. They are simple, clear, and most often quote scripture. The responses you get are more confusing. A lot of times I don't even know what they are disputing! Many seem to argue just for the sake of arguing.
---Donna66 on 4/19/11

"Lets begin with lost (natural) man. They cannot see, hear, are comprehend the spiritual things of God. They are foolishness to him, because they love darkness rather then Light."
Mark_V. on 4/19/11

As always, you trow all mankind in your same sick basket.
"He came to His own, and His own (people) did not receive Him, But as many as received Him..."
Many did receive Him, then and thereafter, and what is born is the Word of God and nowhere it is said that God changes the soil.

John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word,...".
---Nana on 4/19/11

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our righteousness is in him,without him we are TOTALLY DEPRAVED.
---tom2 on 4/19/11

James L, there is no contradictions in Scripture. Lets begin with lost (natural) man. They cannot see, hear, are comprehend the spiritual things of God. They are foolishness to him, because they love darkness rather then Light. While in that state, he needs for God to give him those abilities for him to ever come to Christ. "He came to His own, and His own (people) did not receive Him, But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, (who were these people that received Him?) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" John 1:11-13.
---Mark_V. on 4/19/11

Samuel, that is why I said what I did. Total Depravity was a good enough answer when it was given to counter the first article of faith written in the Remonstrance given to the State of Holland demanding that the Belgic Confession of Faith and the Heidelberg Catechism be changed. I believe at the time it was a great answer. Looking back now, those words have stood the test of time. My studies show "Total Inability" for a better word. Which declares that lost men are dead in sin, spiritually dead. A lost person is an alien by birth, and a sinner by choice.
---Mark_V. on 4/19/11


Pleez eks-kuse duh typos in my poasts. I do not tipe perfktly.

your "second" cannot be demonstrated when scriptures are taken in context. You throw out half the New Testament by saying "well that is speaking to unbelievers."

Wow, I never knew so much scripture was written to unbelieving saints.

Your "third" and "fourth" are self contradictory. If we are "made alive" before we "come to Christ", then that would mean that God is not justifying an ungodly person. Rather, He would be justifying someone He already made godly.

There is no way you can get around your false teaching that only good people go to heaven.
---James_L on 4/19/11

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James L, your right, I need to find out what WCF and WFC is before I can brush up on it.
Second. According to the Bible, if you have faith, and show no works, you are not going to heaven, your faith is not true faith in Christ. True faith always produces good works, because of Christ who lives in us. If Christ did not live in us our good acts would be sin, for anything without faith is sin.

Third," According to the Bible God justifies ungodly people, because the godly are already justified.

Forth, According to the Bible, By Grace God made us alive when we were dead in trespasses and sin first in order for us to have the ability to come to Christ.
---Mark_V. on 4/18/11

You need to brush up on your WCF.

According to WCF, if a man has faith, but no works, he cannot go to heaven. So, he must be good in order to go to heaven.

WFC does not teach that God justifies ungodly people, only those who He has made good first.

WFC teaches that God makes them god first so that they have the ability to choose Christ.

And that's the truth, Mark. That's not my opinion, I know the WCF very well. It is laden with unscriptural presumptions
---James_L on 4/18/11

Yes. All my righteousness is as filthy rags. My flesh is totally depraved, yet I continue to look unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of my Faith and By His Blood, I come humbly to the throne of Grace and Mercy to receive Grace and Mercy in time of need (which is every minute of every day).
---Donna5535 on 4/18/11

Samuel--//I do believe in the inability of man to do right and to save himself. Which is why the Holy Spirit must bring conviction to ever person and why no one can save themselves.//
Well put. Without the work of the Holy Spirit first...
what sinful man would ever muster the faith to believe and accept the Gospel?

Many "Calvinists" don't know a TULIP from daffodil and have never heard of "total depravity". Nor do they believe that every event in life is unalterably pre-programmed by God.
It bothers me to hear them vilified on these blogs and called "evil" by those who claim to know the same Savior they do.
---Donna66 on 4/18/11

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Dear Mark V you took some of the words out of my mouth. Total Depravity does mean being as evil as you can be. That is the T in the Tulip of Calvanism. I do not believe in the total depravity of human beings at this time.

I do believe in the inablity of man to do right and to save himself. Which is why the Holy Spirit must bring conviction to ever person and why no one can save themselves. But this inablity does not mean we cannot choose to do right. That is why I also believe in free will and that GOD forces no one to be saved or lost.

My Daughter who went to a Baptist college and I had this discussion a year ago.
---Samuel on 4/18/11

Total depravity is accurate from God's viewpoint concerning the humans race, for he has said even our righteousness is as filthy rags.
---boo_boo on 4/18/11

"Total inability" is a better term, "Total depravity" can be misleading, because it suggests a moral condition of utter depravity, which means a person is as wicked as he can possibly be. However the doctrine does not teach that man is as wicked as he could possibly be. Even Hitler could have loved his mom, or even been kind to others. Jesus described this condition with images drawn from our nature. Just as a corrupt tree yields corrupt fruit, so sin flows out of a corrupt human nature.
We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. When the depraved do something good, such outwardly acts are motivated, not by a desire to please or honor God, but for a desire to protect our own interests.
---Mark_V. on 4/18/11

Yup totally depraved by the fall of Adam...only when God sees the BLOOD applied does He say "paid in full" these are basics,they are taught together with salvation!
---richard on 4/18/11

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The Calvinist doctrine of corruption as a result of original sin.
Some things I believe and other I know.

I know, every time I look at me, myself. All I see and feel is a sickness.
I am in a place where I feel even the devil himself wouldnt go. I truthfully feel this way.
But, so much, so! That I wish I was never born. I see it in everything I think, say or do.

But when I see or hear you thinking that God doesnt love you.
When I know he died for you. I see God in myself.
I cant make any of you understand this!
Just as no one could, make me!
Its The Spirit eternal generosity.
So no, I dont!
---TheSeg on 4/18/11

James L, you are entitle to your opinion, so is everyone. But it does not have any truth in it.
You say:
"Another is that only good people go to heaven (that's why there is a P on the end of TULIP). Good people persevere, and only those good people will go to heaven."

Your tulip is a false tulip. Good people do not go to heaven, sinners who are forgiven go to heaven, they are imputed with the righteousness of Christ. They persevere because of Christ, not because of their own good works.

You said:
"One error is the assumption that the gospel is something we "choose"
That does not make sense, since all who come to Christ are saved because they receive the gospel by faith.
---Mark_V. on 4/18/11

"Total-depravity-of-man" must be the devil's sermon. God has put a lot of good gifts in man which the evil one will never want to see manifested. Exercising the godly gifts in man(God's design) is punishment to the devil.
---Adetunji on 4/18/11

Total Depravity means that a man is depraved in every facet of life - desires, will, flesh, etc.

It does not mean that man is infinitely depraved, just that the whole man is depraved.

But it can't be reconciled with scripture.

It goes hand in hand with the rest of the TULIP, which is altogether unbiblical on every point.

One error is the assumption that the gospel is something we "choose" when there is not one shred of biblical support for that notion. That's why the unbiblical notion of regeneration before faith.

Another is that only good people go to heaven (that's why there is a P on the end of TULIP). Good people persevere, and only those good people will go to heaven. False again
---James_L on 4/17/11

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Bill willa6989-- I agree. Even men who don't know God, are not totally evil. BUT, we are all fatally flawed and often blind to the truth.

However, if our salvation is dependent on our own wisdom/goodness to choose following Christ instead of some other course...we make Salvation something we deserve instead of a gift freely given by God.

We can have inward pride for making the right choice ( many others have chosen the path to Hell!).
and accept Salvation as a consequence of our own choice, rather than an undeserved expression of God's Grace.

Thus I would rather err on the side of "total depravity" than of total "free will".
---Donna66 on 4/17/11

No, because sin is not part of our original ontology. As we were created originally, God called us "very good," along with the rest of His creation.

Sin is an un-natural add-on.
---Cluny on 4/17/11

I don't believe in "total depravity" because it says, "But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13) So, Mima, if people can become "worse and worse", they are not already totally evil.

But it says, "God be thanked" that we obeyed, not thanks to our own wills (Romans 6:17). And in sin we were "slaves", so I can see our wills were not free. Also, "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:5) so we are s-t-i-l-l totally *dependent*.
---Bill_willa6989 on 4/17/11

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