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Father Jesus' God

I have not yet ascended to the Father, but go to my brothers and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.(John 20:17)

If Jesus says after the resurrection that the Father is his God, when according to scripture did the Father cease to be his God?

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 ---willa5568 on 7/5/11
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Michael 4

Protestant Reformer John Calvin said
(regarding "Michael" in its occurrence at Daniel 12:1):

"I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people."

J. Calvin, Commentaries On The Book Of The Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.
---scott on 7/9/11


"In a number of passages we read of an angel who is superior to the six angels of God's inner council, and who is regularly described as "most venerable", "holy", and "glorious". This angel is given the name of Michael, and the conclusion is difficult to escape that Hermas saw in him the Son of God and equated him with the archangel Michael...

...both...are invested with supreme power over the people of God...The evidence...from the Apostolic Fathers is meagre, and tantalizingly inconclusive. There is evidence...of attempts to interpret Christ as a...supreme angel, here the influence of Jewish angelology is discernible."

Early Christian Doctrines, pp 94, 95
---scott on 7/9/11

"Prototokos"- Colossians 1:15 Childbirth, offspring, firstborn

Look at the eight times that prototokos (firstborn) is used below, note that the idea of supreme is nonexistent.

Lu 2:7 (ESV): And she gave birth to her firstborn son

Ro 8:29 (ESV): in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers

Col 1:15 (ESV): the firstborn of all creation

Col 1:18 (ESV): the firstborn from the dead

Heb 1:6 (ESV): when he brings the firstborn into the world

Heb 11:28 (ESV): that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them

Heb 12:23 (ESV): and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven

Rev 1:5 (ESV): the firstborn of the dead
---scott on 7/8/11

Interesting question willa.
The was never a point in eternity that the Son was without the Father, nor the Father without the Son.
Although the rest of mankind is adopted through His Son, the Eternal Word of God, He was always a Son and there has never been a time in eternity where God was not a Father.
There has never existed God without His Word, Wisdom, and Power.
---micha9344 on 7/7/11

Is 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign, Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name [Immanuel].

Letters Defined:
Ayin-[To See]-image of the invisible God-Col 1:15
Ps 34:15
The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
Mem-[Water,people,nations]-2 forms-[open and closed]. Open-represent the revealed truth of God.Closed,represent the concealed truth of God as Mashiach-revealer of mysteries.Mat 13:13
Is 9:6-7
Nun-[Sprouting Seed]-Son of life
Lamed-[Shepherds staff]-to teach-learn,to point,give direction, order
Deut 4:1
Matt 1:23
[God with us].///

Aleph to Tav
---char on 7/7/11

Part 1/2 Clement of Alexandra(c150AD-c215AD), The Stromata, Bk 7, Ch 2, Para 2a
So the best thing on earth is the most pious man, and the best thing in heaven, the nearer in place and purer, is an angel, the partaker of the eternal and blessed life. But the nature of the Son, which is nearest to Him who is alone the Almighty One, is the most perfect, and most holy, and most potent, and most princely, and most kingly, and most beneficent. This is the highest excellence, which orders all things in accordance with the Fathers will, and holds the helm of the universe in the best way, with unwearied and tireless power, working all things in which it operates, keeping in view its hidden designs.
---micha9344 on 7/7/11

Part 2/2 Clement of Alexandria(c150AD-c215AD), The Stromata, Bk 7, Ch 2, Para 2b
For from His own point of view the Son of God is never displaced, not being divided, not severed, not passing from place to place, being always everywhere, and being contained nowhere, complete mind, the complete paternal light, all eyes, seeing all things, hearing all things, knowing all things, by His power scrutinizing the powers. To Him is placed in subjection all the host of angels and gods, He, the paternal Word, exhibiting a the holy administration for Him who put [all] in subjection to Him.
---micha9344 on 7/7/11

One aways knows when Warwick has lost the agrguement when he starts his diversionary/ducking tactics- avoid difficult questions and issues by attempting to divert the thread on to something totally obscure.

Warwick's cage has obviously been rattled. He is confronted with the clear proof that he is a polytheist, because as he has show- he believes there are 2 God's at Hebrews 1:1-3.

Warwick also lies regarding John 17:11 where 'name' only occurs once. Warwick (trinitarians as a whole) lyingly have 'name' twice, distorting Jesus' words.

Also John 14:14, another example of Warwick/trinitarian scandalous behaviour- inserting words that were not in the original Greek texts-such as 'me' in this verse- again dstorting Jesus words.
---David8318 on 7/7/11

Meaning "G-D" among us. The Name of Christ! CASE CLOSED!!!!"

But if Emanuel is Christ's name and Christ is God, don't you mean to write "E-L"? If Christ or Jesus is the Almighty don't you mean to write "C-T" or
"J-S"? How can you utter the name of God or write it with such thoughtless abandon?

Case open?
---scott on 7/7/11

Now Marc, Was this not your question?

"Can JWs or other Arians provide anyone after Paul and John, but before Arius (i.e. in that 250 year gap period) that held Jesus to angel called Michael...Can anyone give me the documented evidence?"

I have provided three're welcome.

We could discuss how the so called 'church Fathers' viewed Christ in toto (likely a futile exercise) but I've provided the evidence for the part of your question regarding 'Michael' and now I'm being selective?

You see how silly that is right? Perhaps it would be better not to ask such questions if you really don't' want an answer. Or at the very least it's probably best for you to do your own homework.
---scott on 7/7/11

"Right-hand"- Hebrew idiom
"by His own power"

That would be By "His Word"

Is 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Is 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.[moshiah "IS DELIVERING"]

By His Word.
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and [his name one]

One God-different dimension.
Yehovah's Word In flesh--Y'shua Jn1:1-15
---char on 7/7/11

Scott selectively quotes Clement of Alexandria.

Clement regarded Jesus as fully God who sometimes appeared as an angel, not that he once was an angel. This precedes Scott's misquote

'He [i.e. Jesus] also teaches Moses to act as instructor. For the Lord says, "If anyone sins before Me, I'll blot out of My book, but now, go and lead this people into the place which I told thee." Here He's the teacher of the art of instruction. For it was really the Lord that was the instructor of the ancient people by Moses, but He is the instructor of the new people by Himself, face to face. "For behold," He says to Moses, "My angel shall go before thee," representing the evangelical and commanding power of the Word.'
---Marc on 7/7/11

David my statements about blood transfusions, vaccinations, sexual behaviour, organ transplants etc came from WTS literature. Are you saying these things were not written where I have said they were?

Who is lying David?
---Warwick on 7/7/11

Scott's JW training manual selectively quotes from early Christians. Here's what Clement actually said about Christ a paragraph before:

'He is called Jesus. Sometimes He calls Himself a shepherd, and says, "I'm the good Shepherd." [1141] The Word's appropriately called the Instructor...our Instructor's the holy God Jesus, the Word, who's the guide of all humanity. The loving God Himself's our Instructor....Again, when He speaks in His own person, He confesses Himself to be the Instructor: "I'm the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of Egypt." [1147] Who, then, has the power of leading in and out? Is it not the Instructor? This was He who appeared to Abraham, and said to him, "I am thy God, be accepted before Me.'
---Marc on 7/7/11

JWs believe that Christ was never God but that he was a mere angel. Scott tries to tell us that Novatian held Christ to be the same as the JW theology. It's far too long to quote but look up Novatian's own writing and see the difference (A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, ch 19). Sure Novatian had some heterodox views but he wasn't an early JW. In any case, he overlaps Arius time by several decades. My point stays.
---Marc on 7/7/11

In his Dialogue with Trypho, Justin writes:

'He who is called God and appeared to the patriarchs is called both Angel and Lord, in order that from this you may understand Him to be minister to the Father of all things...Heappeared as a man to Abraham, and wrestled in human form with Jacob'

Novatian also argued that the Angel of Great Counsel was more than just an angel:

'[T]he name God has never been granted to angelsHe is entitled The Angel of Great Counsel'

Again Scott, misunderstands, misquotes etc what early Christians believed.
---Marc on 7/7/11

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One God-different dimension.

So shall [My Word] be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not [return unto me] void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

2 Kgs 6:17
And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Jn1:1-15 (all)
In the beginning was the Word...
Word was with God...
Word was God...
Word dwelt amoung us.

Immanuel-God with us
---char on 7/7/11

Sorry but got to laugh at Warwick's ridiculous statement's regarding the Watchtower. Warwick has seriously lost the arguement here. Unable to find anymore false trinitarian verses Warwick?

Warwick is prepared to lie about God, Jesus and the Bible, so what prevents him from lying about people who are interested in the truth of the Bible. Warwick's permissiveness knows no bounds.

The Seq & Warwick- Where in the Bible does Jesus sit on God's throne? Both Hebrews 1:3 and Acts 7:55 the resurrected Jesus is seen at 'God's right hand'.

Warwick is unable to deny his polytheism because he and The Seq believe God is 'standing at God's right hand'- (Warwick 7/6/11)
---David8318 on 7/7/11

Poor, sad Warwick.

Embarrassed by the abhorrent, spiritually leprous Jehovah's Witnesses. So in retaliation he cruises the internet for nasty, gotcha barbs hoping to direct attention away from the fact that he has been exposed as the spiritually flaccid apologist that he is.

The same internet BTW, that would have us believe that Christianity is dead, God's word is unreliable and full of inaccuracies and that aliens live among us.

Pick up your (spiritual) sword and answer a question. If you're right, state your case, make your argument. Have you heard a JW bring up the Crusades because we couldn't answer one of Cluny or Ruben's questions? Seriously...embarrassingly transparent.
---scott on 7/7/11

But Scott, Jesus said God is one, and He is one with the Father. Why would He disagree with the statement that God is one?

You fall into the same trap as other JW's holding an earth-bound human concept of God. God is an invisible spirit who, in Jesus took upon Himself a body that He could be Immanuel, God physically with us. God's spirit is not divided into three lumps of Spirit as His essence and domain is beyond our comprehension. He is with us, everywhere but we cannot see Him. But we can see Jesus the God/man who as to His flesh is man, but as to His spirit is God.

You try to comprehedd the mystery of God's reality via human reasoning, and without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.
---Warwick on 7/7/11

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"Scott, you never said how you were seduced..." Cluny


I'm trying to decide If there's an actual and honest question buried deep inside the disrespect and sarcasm. I'm gonna go with no at this point based, collectively, on the comments that you gave directed at me for the last couple of years.

Probably better that you just continue to view me as an anti-orthodox heretic without knowing anything about me personally.

Easier for the firing squad to blast the guy with the hood covering his face rather that looking at him in the eye and pulling the trigger.
---scott on 7/7/11

In the Watchtower of 1st April, 1986 p.321 there are printed a list of things which indicate "apostasy" and for you can be "disfellowshipped."

These include "that 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens...That only a 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward."

So you have to believe nonBiblical drivel and accept you cannot make it to heaven (all the seats have been taken) to be a good JW!
---Warwick on 7/6/11

"After Paul and John, but before Arius- Michael" Cluny

Arius (256 - 336ish C.E.)

Hippolytus (170-236 C. E):
(Identifies Michael with the angel in Moses' day.)

"And who is Michael but the angel assigned to the people? As (God) says to Moses. I will not go with you in the way,...but my angel shall go with you".

Scholia [Study] On Daniel, Chapter VI, item, 13, from fragments, ANF, Vol. V, reprinting of December, 1981, page 190. (Compare, Exodus 14:19, 23:20, 3, 32:34, 1 Corinthians 10:4
---scott on 7/6/11

In the JW church married couples can also be booted out for infraction of "unique" bed-room rules. Apparently touching improperly is forbidden! This comes from the Watchtower 1st December 1972, p. 735. Apparently love-making techniques had to be approved!

This gives a new meaning to The Watchtower!

Maybe it is forbidden to enjoy it?

Also at one time the JWs were forbidden to have children. I suppose that wouldnt be difficult if certain touching was verboten. From the JW publication 'Face the Facts' 1938 p.46 "Would it be Scripturally proper for them (JW's) to now marry and begin to rear children? No, is the answer which is supported by the Scriptures."
---Warwick on 7/6/11

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"After Paul and John, but before Arius- Michael" Cluny

Arius (256 - 336ish C.E.)

Novatian (210-280 C. E.)

"Because He [Christ] is subjected to the Father, and the Announcer of the Fathers will, He is declared to be the Angel of Great Counsel, Archangel...[Isa. 9:6], according to the Seventy". (Ex. xxiii)

See Bull, Defensio, etc., vol. V pp. 30. Comp. Hippol., p. 225, supra, Novatian, p. 632, infa.] 3 De subordinatione, etc.: Bull, Defensio, etc., vol. V. pp. 767, 685.
---scott on 7/6/11

Sorry Cluny, these three responses (about Michael) were for Marc.

My Apologies.
---scott on 7/6/11

It would seem that Arius's views were banned mainly for political reasons, the emperor believing that he couldn't have a unified state without a uniform set of religious beliefs in place. It's a shame, and haunts us to this day, the idea that Christianity can't exist properly unless everyone agrees on all doctrinal points, something not possible, ever.
---John.usa on 7/6/11

\\"After Paul and John, but before Arius- Michael" Cluny\\

That's not me, though I admit it's easy to lose track of who said what here.

scott, you never said how you were seduced from Christianity to follow the neo-Arian-Russell-Rutherford mystery of iniquity with all it's Romanizing baggage.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/6/11

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May God, who seeth all things, and who is the Ruler of all spirits and the Lord of all flesh WHO CHOSE our Lord Jesus Christ AND US through Him to be a peculiar people grant to every soul that calleth upon His glorious and holy Name, faith, fear, peace, patience, long-suffering, self-control, purity, and sobriety, to the well-pleasing of His Name, through our High Priest and Protector, Jesus Christ, by whom be to Him glory, and majesty, and power, and honour, both now and for evermore. Amen.

First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (50-100 AD) -Anti-Nicene fathers, Nicene and post-Nicene Fathers volume one Chp. LVII, printed 1885
---willa5568 on 7/6/11

But may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ Himself, who is the Son of God, and our everlasting High Priest, build you up in faith and truth, and in all meekness, gentleness, patience, long-suffering, forbearance, and purity,...who shall believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, and in His Father, who raised Him from the dead.---Polycarp to the Philippians Chp. XII (AD 65-100-155)
---willa5568 on 7/6/11

On Jesus: "And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed in world, elevated up with glory. In beginning being the Word, and the Word being from God, and God being the Word. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And we know that the Son from God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true: and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ, this is the true God and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. A-men." -Holy Bible, Brit Chadashah A.D.
---Eloy on 7/6/11

Meaning "G-D" among us.

The Name of Christ!


(I can't believe this silly question went on for 2 blogs and nobody can answer). I was hoping maybe Cluny might answer but he failed to do so. Forget the rest!
---John on 7/6/11

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"After Paul and John, but before Arius- Michael" Cluny

Arius (256 - 336ish C.E.)

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 C. E.):

"Formerly the older people [the Israelites] had and old covenant...and the Word was an angel, but the fresh and new people [the Christians] has also been given a new covenant, and the Word has appeared...and that mystic angel is born - Jesus."

The Instructor, Book I, chapter VII, Ante-Nicene Fathers Translations Of The Writings of the Fathers down to A. D. 325, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Vol. II, page 224, reprinting of August, 1980.
---scott on 7/6/11

"True Christians believe in ONE God". David8318

What clear, direct, scriptural declaration of proof is there (and from Christ himself)?

"Which is the most important [command]?" [Christ answered] "Hear, O Israel, the Lord [quoting Deut 6:4 where we find YHWH] our God, the Lord is one." Matt 12:28-34

A great opportunity for Christ to say otherwise. HE didn't. Was he lying?


"True Christians believe in ONE God in three Persons." Cluny

What scripture says anything like this. A clear declaration?
Cluny knows that this was developed over a considerable amount of time...centuries.
---scott on 7/6/11

Can JWs or other Arians provide anyone after Paul and John, but before Arius (i.e. in that 250 year gap period) that held Jesus to be created, an angel called Michael, didn't physically resurrect, a god etc?

Can anyone give me the documented evidence?

Heresies always come after the real, not before.
---Marc on 7/6/11

Cliff, the exJW has told us JW's teach that:

"Jesus returned (invisibly) in 1914 CE .What many witnesses of today don't know is that they first believed Jesus returned in 1884CE then changed it to 1914.
For many, many years they said the generation of 1914-1918 would by no means pass away before Armageddon!The "generation" (20 to 40 year olds) are long since gone,I don't know how they explain that today."

This is an organization which says blood transfusions, vaccinations and organ transplants are forbidden by God's word then changes its mind on two of them!

As Cliff has shown they have also given false prophecies, and again changed their mind.
---Warwick on 7/6/11

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Candice and other JWS,

1. 'The two most prominent messengers are the first and last Paul and pastor Russell, 'That wise and faithful servant' now many more are recognizing that Pastor Russell is that servant' (Watchtower, Nov 1, 1917)
2. 'Some were exalting creatures, indulging in a personality cult that focused on Charles T. Russell, the first president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society' (May 1, 1989, Watchtower, p. 4)
---Marc on 7/6/11

\\Unlike polytheistic trinitarians, true Christians believe in ONE God. \\

Unlike neo-Arian non-Christian Jehovah's false witnesses, true Christians believe in ONE God in three Persons.

Ego eimi means the same thing in modern Greek it does in Koine--I am.
---Cluny on 7/6/11

David would you really let your child die rather than allowing a life-saving blood-transfusion? The watchtower Society command this saying the OT commands we not eat blood. But Christians are no longer under Jewish dietary law.

Many innocents died because of this prohibition.

In this context it is revelvant that both vaccinations ( a violation of God's will) and organ transplants (cannibalism) were likewise forbidden by the WTS. But both prohibitions were later reversed. God must have changed His mind, cannibalism now apparently being allowed!

Considering the above how many JW's will have died before the prohibition against blood transfusions is also reversed.

What an evil antiChristian organization this cult is.
---Warwick on 7/6/11

You see what Warwick just said?

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
---TheSeg on 7/6/11

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David are you claiming humans or angels sit on God's throne? However Jesus does, and only God sits on God's throne.

Only in your indoctrinated cultic thinking do Hebrews 1,2 contradict what I wrote. We are talking of Jesus who alone God calls "my Son." God speaks to us in human terms so we will understand. We know a son is of equal substance with his father. Or do you claim my sons are inferior to me in substance?

Our understanding comes from Scripture, enlightened by the Holy Spirit whom you reject. We who have had experience with the JW church know your beliefs are dictated to you by a man!

You are schooled in how to undermine Christian beliefs. It works well with the unknowing but falls flat here.
---Warwick on 7/6/11

David8318 these words I'm writing are from me.
They are mine as sure as the arm sitting on my right side is mine.

If, the Lord Jesus the Christ of God is not a part of God himself.
Then no one should be listening to him. Because, it is not God!

Moreover I'll tell you something else The Lord himself said.
Aside from, Joh_10:30 I and my Father are one.
Which you dont believe, right?
In Joh_10:34-38 there's a part here that says the scripture cannot be broken!

Isaiah_43, tell me is Isaiah saying this of himself?
Or is it the one true God speaking?
Who is speaking?

Now go ahead try to break the scriptures.
David8318, it not just you!
There is only one!
---TheSeg on 7/6/11

The Watchtower Society falsely teaches that God raised Jesus as a "mighty imortal spirit Son." So Jesus was an angel who became a man but is now a spirit Son! What next?

After His resurrection Jesus made sure His followers understod He was flesh, by eating with them and inviting Thomas the doubter to touch Him.

Having seen and touched Jesus Thomas said (John 20:28)to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Jesus replied "Because you have seen me, you have believed,...."

Thomas calls Him My Lord and My God, (literally The Lord of Me and The God of me.) And Jesus accepts this!

If He was just an angel could He accept this? No!
---Warwick on 7/6/11

Col 1: 14-18 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence.
---christina on 7/6/11

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Unlike polytheistic trinitarians, true Christians believe in ONE God.

After his resurrection 'as a spirit', Jesus continued to refer to his Father as 'my Father', and is 'sitting at the right hand of God'.

Polytheists teach this position of being at God's right hand is 'reserved for God' (Warwick- 7/6/11)

Disciple Stephen had a different understanding to Warwick. Just prior to his death, Stephen saw heaven open up. What did Stephen see? God sitting at God's right hand? Did he see a 3 headed God, or a God with 3 faces?

'But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God's glory and of Jesus standing at God's right hand.' Ac.7:55.
---David8318 on 7/6/11

In his use of Hebrews 1:3, Warwick conveniently ignores verses 1 & 2 which read,

'God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.'

It is true though that we should let scripture interpret scripture.

Heb.1:3 ends with the truth that Jesus sits 'at God's right hand'. Warwick believes this 'sitting at God's right hand' is reserved for God- Warwick 7/5/11.

Conclusive proof that Warwick and trinitarians are polytheists- Warwick has at least 2 God's in Hebrews 3.
---David8318 on 7/6/11

Colossians 1:15 - 'Other'.

All Bible translators supply needed words in accordance with their own understanding of what meaning the Bible writer actually intended.

At Col 1:15 Jesus is not just called 'firstborn', he is called 'firstborn of every (pas) creature." Grammatically he is included among the created and is numbered as the first. Logically, those who followed would be 'other' creations.

Trinitarians gnash their teeth at Paul's clear declaration and argue about 'adding words'. However:

The KJV NIV, NKJV, TEV/GNB, Beck, etc., add the word 'other'' at Acts 5:29.

"Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." (Also KJV at Job 24:24).
---scott on 7/6/11

I would offer > God made Eve from Adam, so from Adam we have two persons of the same source. Like this, God can be more than one Person and these are one with one another . . . all the same spiritual being, but being personally different yet in perfect oneness of activity and cooperation and intimacy. Man in God's image is three basic persons . . . father, child, helpmate . . . like Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And Jesus died for your sins. Only God Himself could make such full satisfaction for our sins. If our Father is Jesus Christ's "God", this can mean our Father is supreme in hierarchical position. Jesus is positionally submissive to our Father, but "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" (in John 14:9).
---Bill_willa6989 on 7/6/11

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The New World Translation has every good reason to render Col.1:15,16 as, 'All [other] things have been created through him and for him.'

'All other' is translated from the Gr.word 'panta', an inflected form of 'pas' (Lu.13:2- rendered 'all... other' RS). So, after God created 'the firstborn of all creation,' all things that were brought into existence afterward were other creations. When creating all those other things, God used his 'only-begotten Son.'

We can better understand the apostle John's words in John 1:1-3: 'All things came into existence through him (The Word- Jesus), and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.' the Son derives pleasure from these works, and in this sense they are 'for' him.
---David8318 on 7/6/11

Alot of ways. C.T.Rusell didn't stop nor teach against birthdays, they also had the cross & crown emblem on the original WT's that i have access to, the jws dropped them. Rutherford quit using the studyin the scripture set though witnesses have them ni their library,but say "this was the old days we donot use them anymore"
---candice on 7/6/11

Hello Candice, you are correct in identifying J F Rutherford as CT Russell's successor as president of the WTBTS after Russell's death in 1916. However, I question your comments regarding Rutherford as 'going in the opposite direction'.

Both Russell and Rutherford were contemporaries and worked side by side in advancing scriptural truth in their day- fundamentally teaching Jehovah is God Almighty, Jesus is God's Son, no hellfire and immortality of the soul a false Hellenic teaching. Same belief's held today that can be supported scripturally.

Where did Rutherford go off in the opposite direction?
---David8318 on 7/6/11

Marc Warwick and others,

I know you stand on what you believe and that is your choice. I won't waste your or my time trying to convince you. So I just desire an answer to the question. If the Father is Jesus' God after his resurrection, as Jesus says, when did the Father cease to be his God and can you show scripture that says the Father is not his God now? Paul,Peter and the other Apostle say He is still plainly, no interpretation needed which I have shown numerous times.

The rest of the posts are for you all and I look forward to the explanations!
---willa5568 on 7/6/11

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Willa, Jesus does not call himself 'ego eimi' at John 8:58 or anything else in this verse. The Jews are questioning Jesus with regard to his age, not his identity.

Warwick insists the expression 'I Am' must be used in both John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14. But do both texts express the same thought?

No, because Ex.3:14 in LXX reads, 'Ego eimi ho Ohn', 'I am the Being.' This is different from the simple use of the words 'ego eimi' at John 8:58. The verb 'eimi', at John 8:58, is in the 'historical present' (ie. it antedates the differentiation into imperfect and aorist). Jesus was speaking about himself in relation to Abrahams past.

'Prin Abra-am ge-ne-sthai ego eimi', 'Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.'
---David8318 on 7/6/11

I do believe christan that you do not know quite what you believe do you. Are you trying to tell me that you believe Jesus to be a 'God-man' even after his resurrection to spirit life? Are you contradicting the apostle Peter at 1 Peter 3:18- 'he (Jesus) being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.' ?

Your comprehension of the scriptures ceases where the trinity cannot go. You cannot see beyond the pagan trinity dogma. You resort to hiding behind scriptural texts such as John 8:42-45 hoping the issue will disappear.

The fact of the matter christan- Jesus, as Peter teaches was raised 'in the spirit', yet still refers to his Father as 'my God'. Jesus is clearly not God but the 'Son of God'.
---David8318 on 7/6/11

Marc, C.T.Russell was not EVER linked to Jehovah's Witnesses , ONLY biblestudents. Jw's leader was J.Rutherford who went in the opposite direction of Russell. the Jw's teach differently then biblestudents and also the jw's think CTRussell is "old news" today.
---candice on 7/6/11

Jesus is The Father. "Phillip says to Jesus, Lord show us the Father, and it satisfies us. Jesus says to him: Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Phillip? the person that has seen me has seen The Father, therefore how say you, Show us the Father? Believe me that I in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me because of the very miracle's sake. I and Father are one. He that sees me sees him that sent me. To the person who overcomes will I grant to sit with me on my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with Father of me on his throne." Jn.14:8,9,11+ 10:30+ 12:45+ Rv.3:21.
---Eloy on 7/6/11

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\\The Watchtower cons people by claiming theirs to be the original teaching of the Church\\

Unlike the original church (Orthodoxy), Jehovah's False Witnesses have changed their teachings several times.

In 1972, in the Watchtower, they said that J[F]Ws were prophets, even as Jeremiah and Ezekiel. In 1986 in their book "Reasoning Together from the Scriptures" they said they were NOT prophets.

Question: When did the Organization lie?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/6/11

The Watchtower cons people by claiming theirs to be the original teaching of the Church. In one of their publications 'The Seven Messengers to the Church', they have Paul, John, a 250 year gap to Arius, a 1100plus gap to Waldo, Wycliffe, Luther and then their 19th century guy Russell.

Asked to provide anyone after Paul and John, but before Arius (i.e. in that 250 year gap period) that held Jesus to be created, an angel called Michael, didn't physically resurrect, a god etc, they're silent. Heresies always come after the real.
---Marc on 7/6/11

"At what point did he cease be be a 'God-man'?" David8318 is a clear rejection by you that Christ is God. Be reminded of Christ's discourse with the Jews,

John 8:42-45 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
---christan on 7/6/11

Wily, when we read that Jesus is the image of the invisible God we need to take it in context, remembering Scripture interprets Scripture. See Hebrews 1:3

Jesus Son is the radiance of God's glory
Jesus is the exact representation of his being
Jesus sustains all things by his powerful word.
Jesus provided purification for sins.
Jesus now sits in the position reserved for God, in heaven.

There is but one God, Jehovah our Righteousness, who we call the Lord Jesus our Saviour.

No man or angel can save.
---Warwick on 7/6/11

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willa5568: Please remove the blind-fold of your religious group from your face. (1) God appeared in human-form to Father-Abraham Gen.18 (2) God appeared as man to Joshua & acceppted his worship Joshua 5:13-15. With these 2 examples, it should not surprise you that God was in the body of the Lord Jesus Christ to save us from going to Hell.
---Adetunji on 7/6/11

Willa, at John 10:33 the Jews tried stoning Jesus because they believed Jesus was making himself 'a god.' The Greek word 'theos' appears at Jo.10:33 without the definite article.

The Jews were not referring to Jesus as 'the God' (ho theos) at Jo.10:33.

Jesus rejects the Jews faulty reasoning who like trinitarians had draw wrong conclusions by stating- 'I am Gods Son'- Jo.10:36.

Jesus even quotes Psalms 82:6 which refer to 'gods' and not 'the God'. Jesus thus understood the Jews faulty reasoning was with reference to him 'making himself a god' (not 'the God'), otherwise Jesus would not have quoted Ps.82:6 in his defence.

Thus, the trinitarian corruption of John 10:30-36 is easily rectified. Jesus is not God.
---David8318 on 7/6/11

Willa, Jesus, like God has many names/titles. One is 'Immanuel'-'God with us.' God is Spirit, not located in any one position, always with His people. Therefore calling Jesus, (fully God-spirit, and fully man-flesh) Immanuel, means He is God with us, like never before.

The Lord (Jeremiah 23:5,6)says the King/Saviour is coming, whose name will be "The Lord our Righteousness" i.e. Jehovah.

As I pointed out the Greek OT uses 'ego emi' (I am) at Exodus 3:14, for God's name. The same appelation Jesus uses of Himself in the NT and they wished to kill him-"you a mere man claim to be God"-John 10:33.

Jesus Jehovah with us, Creator, Redeemer, Saviour-all names/titles He alone shares with the Father.
---Warwick on 7/6/11

Its just hard for some sons to understand their father.
Im not saying they wont, just saying, its hard for them.
Maybe its because, they dont believe one day, theyll be fathers too.

This I do know!
Its easier for a father to understand his son, then for a son to understand his father.
I also see this!
Its even harder, almost impossible for a father to understand the love of a mother for her son.
Reminds me of something the lord said.

Didnt Christ say after he came back?
Luk_24:39! Flesh and bones!
John said 1Jn_4:2, Well?

Christ said Joh_4:24! So, God is the Spirit!
I only know of one!

Christ also said Joh_14:10-11
And to you he said Joh_14:12!
Greater than who?
---TheSeg on 7/6/11

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Colossians 1:15 He is the image(eikon) of the invisible God. First God is said to be invisible/unseen. Second he is the image of this unseen God, which Adam also was. Image also refers to likeness. Third, he is the Firstborn of all creation/every creature. Firstborn is referring to vs.18 where he is the firstborn from the dead while the creation, the governmental establishment(Kingdom of Heaven) is in verse 16 which is proven by the beginning of 16 "because/for". It then continues to say "by",which is better translated "in"him it was created.Why?"Because" he is the firstborn from the dead making him before all things and preeminent-vs. 17,18

Lord(King) not God read vs. 1-3
---willa5568 on 7/6/11


---John on 7/6/11

Willa, my name is Warwick.

What is the point of the Scriptures you have quoted? Do you imagine they somehow contradict those I quoted to you?

It is always helpful if you advise what your point is!
---Warwick on 7/6/11


"`Is not this he whom they are seeking to kill?-John 7:25

"Can it be that the authorities really know that this is the Christ" John 7:26

"Pharisees heard the crowd muttering these things... so the * chief priests and the Pharisees sent temple police to arrest Him"-7:37

"The Pharisees answered them, Have you also been deceived?Have any of the authorities or the Pharisees believed in him"-John 7:47,48

Nicodemus says, "Our law judges not a man, except it first hear from him.."

Why did they want him condemned?

Mark 15:10-"for he knew that because of envy the chief priests had delivered him up"

Can't change the context
---willa5568 on 7/5/11

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Willa, the Greek translation of the OT renders God's name (Exodus 3:14) as 'ego eimi,' 'I am.'

In the Greek NT Jesus calls Himself 'ego eimi,' 'I am' staking His claim as Almighty God of Exodus 3:14.

John 8:58: Jesus calls Himself 'ego eimi,' 'I am.' The Jews understood His claim and attempted to "stone Him."

John 10:30: Jesus says "I and the Father are one" and they attempted to stone him. Why "Because you a mere man claim to be God."

John 18:6 His opponents "fell to the ground." Why? Because a man said "I am" or because in doing so He revealed Himself as God?

Colossians 1:15,16 removes any doubt as Jesus is portrayed as the uncreated Creator, God!
---Warwick on 7/5/11

God has never ceased being Jesus' father, he still is.
---candice on 7/5/11

Yes christan we know what your belief is. The point of this thread and others is that your trinitarian belief does not fit into scripture and scripture does not support your view that Jesus is God

The confusion is all yours- evident by the fact that you are unable to tackle the issues raised by this thread.

Trinitarians maintain Jesus was '100% God and 100% man'- a 'God-man' or 'God incarnate' when on earth. At what point did he cease be be a 'God-man'? If it was after his resurrection to spirit life why does Jesus continue to refer to the Father as 'my God'?

If you can't answer this christan, your trinity belief falls flat and can be called heretic- unscriptural.
---David8318 on 7/5/11

When one person holds multiple names or titles, they are not equivalent. A judge's son who gives him a gift addresses it to "dad", not "your honor" - but when arguing a case before him, addresses him as "your honor", never "dad".

With God it is the same way. His many names are not interchangeable, e.g. the Holy Spirit did not die for our sins.


Sadly, there is no concensus on what "proper" Christian teaching is. Each denomination is different. If moderators say "this is Christian and that isn't", they become doctrinal police, and this will cease being ChristianNet, and will turn into BaptistNet, PentecostalNet, or something else equally sectarian.
---StrongAxe on 7/5/11

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God will never cease to be God, just as the Son will never cease to be!
Rev_21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

I see the confusion in the understanding the three being one.
Maybe if you look at it, as a marriage, you can better understand.
God said a marriage is a union of your spirits. One person in spirit!

Christ is joined to the Father in their Spirit.
They are one with the Holy Spirit, Which is God.
Not three separate, but one Spirit.
Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit:
and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The very reason I gave Rev_21:7!
---TheSeg on 7/5/11

If you believe that God which is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, you might not be so confuse and even start a debate of confusion like this.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE but three different "persons", that is to say -

- The Father chose His people
- The Son died for those whom the Father chose
- The Holy Spirit only gives life to those whom the Son died for whom the Father gave to Him

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit work in perfect harmony with each other because they are ONE. That's way salvation is a promise between the Holy Trinity, and none of those chosen by God will be lost.
---christan on 7/5/11

I've never understood why this "Christian" site continually allows these cults to push their beliefs!!!!
---KarenD on 7/5/11

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