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Are Crosses Biblical

Those of you who hold your holy crosses to your heart, what exactly is Jeremiah speaking about in his book in chapter 2:27,28? and again in Jeremiah 10:2-10? Is he not speaking clearly of a cross? We must follow His word, shouldn't we?

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 ---James on 8/24/11
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Darlene1- you still have not explained what it is you pay to God?

You pay taxes, loyalty and allegiance to Caesar- What do you pay to God? That was my simple question. Instead of answering it, you call me a liar. You don't say where I've lied which makes your allegation rather weak.

You said on 8/26/11- 'Giving allegiance to a Country takes nothing from God'. So what did Jesus mean when he drew the distinction between 'Caesar' and God? To you it appears they are one and the same. 'Giving allegiance to Caesar takes nothing from God' is what you are saying. Jesus said it's only taxes we pay to 'Caesar'. If you also pay allegiance to Caesar, what do you pay to God?

And where does the Bible say we are to 'pray for our leaders'?
---David8318 on 8/31/11

David8318 I won't give you many Bible verses because you don't receive them. I started to ignore you but decided you needed the truth. I'll simply tell you,you are a liar,I have never worshipped the state nor idols nor anything else but God through his son Jesus Christ for 63 years and loved God all my life. You lied on me based solely on what you have as your personal belief system not the Word of God because if you had followed God's Word you wouldn't have attacked me in such a why to begin with. Don't you realize when you tell lies, or tell many other evil things on people you are doing the devils work not Gods. Proverbs 26:28 A lying tongue hates those it hurts--. Instead live in God's Law of Love 1 Corinthians 13:4-8.
---Darlene_1 on 8/30/11

Strongaxe- I agree with you on the issues of payment of taxes and obedience Christians must give to Caesar. Again that was not the issue I raised with Darlene1.

Darlene1 believes Mt.22:21 involves not just the payment of taxes to Caesar, but also the payment of our loyalty and allegiance to Caesar. I disagree. I believe our loyalty and allegiance must go only to God- 'God's things to God'.

If as Darlene1 believes we must in addition to our taxes pay our loyalty and allegiance to Caesar, my question was- What's left to pay to God? What are the 'things' we pay to God if they are not our loyalty and allegiance?

Neither you nor Darlene1 has been able to answer this.
---David8318 on 8/30/11


We must not violate God's laws in order to support Caesar. However, we are not called to judge Caesar either. Jesus said we should pay taxes to Caesar - even though those same taxes paid to Caesar went to support pagan temples and armies used to conquer other lands and enslave them - yet Jesus did not say that because these acts by the government violated God's laws, that this would excuse us from paying taxes.

(In contrast, many Christians object to paying taxes because the government uses them for ungodly purposes, like promoting abortion and the like).
---StrongAxe on 8/30/11

"Doubt is not expressed." Warwick

A common misconception.

1914: "We are not prophesying, we are merely giving our surmises . . . We do not even aver that there is no mistake in our interpretation of prophecy and our calculations of chronology. We have merely laid these before you, leaving it for each to exercise his own faith or doubt in respect to them". WT, Jan. 1, 1908

1925: "Many [expect] that...the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year." WT, Jan. 1, 1925
---scott on 8/30/11

Warwick, Jehovah's Witnesses believe ever since 1914 we been close to Armageddon. 1914 marked the start of the 'Last days'. JW's believe the preaching of God's coming Kingdom government is the priority in life.

Anyone has the right to decide whether they want children. But Paul said,'Moreover, this I say, brothers, the time left is reduced. Henceforth let those who have wives be as though they had none.' 1 Cor.7:29.

The Watchtower you quote again focused on the preaching activity- and asked if any could make room for increased activity to give serious thought to it. Trinitarians of course ignore Christ's command to preach and during 1938 were focusing on more bloodshed in readiness for another World War.
---David8318 on 8/30/11

Warwick, whatever you may believe what Jehovah's Witnesses thought would happen in 1914, if anyone had been in your decrepit trinitarian religion they would have been slaughtered in the trinitarian First World War.

Jehovah's Witnesses were interested in Bible study and watching out for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

Why is it whenever there has been a World war has your false trinitarian religion been behind it? I can understand why you are so critical of JW's during 1914 and 1938. It's because you are a hater of peace and those who promote peace. You are a trinitarian warmonger. You are not interested in the Bible or Bible prophecies. That's all your pathetic religion is interested in is War and death.
---David8318 on 8/30/11

David, you wrote "JW's didn't know quite what would happen,..." However the truth is otherwise. When you read the many false prophesies doubt is not expressed.

It is amazing that false prophecies followed one after the other but the JW conviction that the latest is correct never falters!

The Watchtower, November 1, 1938, p.324 claim is just one of many "It would therefore appear that there is no reasonable or Scriptural injunction to bring children into the world immediately before Armageddon, where we now are."

But you say "JW's never said Armageddon would happen on the dates you claim" totally contradicting their false "immediately before Armageddon" claim!
---Warwick on 8/30/11

Strongaxe- if you go backover what Darlene1 and I have discussed, the issue was not over obedience but loyalty and allegiance.

I agree we should give to Caesar obedience. But that's not the issue I'm discussing with Darlene1.

It appears Darlene1 gives everything to Caesar- loyalty and allegiance, leaving nothing much else to God.

Darlene1 (and others) believe we must pay taxes, loyalty and allegiance to 'Caesar'. If that's the case, what did Jesus mean when he said to pay 'Gods things to God'? What are the things we pay to God if they are not our loyalty and allegiance? There's not a lot left to 'pay to God'.
---David8318 on 8/30/11


Where did you ever get such an idea from what Darlene1 wrote? The Bible (with scriptures she offered) points out the ruling powers are here because God wants them to be, and it frequently condemns disobedience against authority. So, obedience to ones government is something God approves. Note that Jesus said "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" even though the Roman government was corrupt and idolatrous. Obedience to one's government is not worship.

The Bible requires two or three witnesses for an accusation, yet you are not even providing even one, since "no doubt" and "I wouldn't be surprised" are words commonly used when one makes accusations with absolutely no evidence at all.
---StrongAxe on 8/29/11

Darlene1- you are a worshipper of the country in which you live. No doubt you are the type of person who arrogantly believes the USA to be exempt from punishment by God. You probably believe the USA not to be among the Kingdoms of the world Satan offered to Jesus- Matthew 4:8.

Afterall, that 'Pledge of Allegiance' you recite does state 'one nation under God', doesn't it? It's your arrogance and pride of race that blinds you to true knowledge of the Bible, and to the truth of what God will soon do to Satans system of which the USA is a part- Rev.16:14.

I wouldn't be surprised if you've got the stars and stripes flying somewhere on your property.
---David8318 on 8/29/11

Warwick does highlight the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are interested in the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, and how world events point to the fulfillment of those prophecies.

A case in point is the year 1914. JW's began printing the Watchtower in 1879 as 'Herald of Christ's Presence'. JW's knew 1914 was a year prophesied in the Bible. For sure, JW's didn't know quite what would happen, but JW's knew 1914 marked the end of 'the times of the Nations' or the 'Gentile times'- Lu.21:24. JW's encouraged people away from false religion & to study the Bible for themselves.

While Warwick's trinitarian brigade were thirsty for blood during the 1914 debacle called the 'Great War', JW's were interested in people & in Bible study.
---David8318 on 8/29/11

David the The Watchtower, November 1, 1938, p.324 falsely claimed "It would therefore appear that there is no reasonable or Scriptural injunction to bring children into the world immediately before Armageddon, where we now are."

The watchtower said they were "now" immediately before Armageddon and you say "Armageddon is still future." What does now mean? You are commanded-Come here now-and you take 70+ years!

The WTS confidently commands JW's not to have children prophesying that Armegeddon was "now." This again shows false prophecy and the usual, obviously unwarranted, intrusion into peoples lives. Blind controlling guides!
---Warwick on 8/29/11

So then, what is the Greek word for 'cross'?
What was the Greek word for 'cross' in the 1st century?
If they are different, why did it change?
When did it change?
FYI 'stauros' is the current Greek word for 'cross'.
---micha9344 on 8/29/11

David, I admit I gave the wrong Greek word for "Crucify" I said "Stauros" when I meant "Stauroo" Cross, Crucify, spoken of the punishment of crucifixion (Matt. 20:19, 23:34, 26:2). The crucifixion of Christ is mention many times, there is no mention of the other word for a stake. Why not try stakefixion.
---Mark_V. on 8/29/11

David8318,your lack of knowledge of the Word is showing. Matthew 7:1 Do not judge,or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others,you will be judged,and with the measure you use,it will be measured to you. John 4:23,24 Yet a time is coming and has now come,when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth,for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit,and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.Psalms 47:7-9 For God is King of the earth--.God reigns over the nations-.-for the Kings of the earth belong to God,he is greatly exalted. Since God reigns over nations,therefore,if we dishonor our nation we dishonor God,showing loyalty and allegiance to our nation shows it to God too.
---Darlene_1 on 8/29/11

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Most Christians treat the cross as a symbol of Jesus's sacrifice - a symbol to remind them of it, and as a witness to declare their faith to others. Some, however, treat a cross as some kind of magic talisman, focusing too much on the object rather than who it represents. This is idolatry. The same can be said of statues of saints, human figures like televangelists and other religious leaders(who can be treated as teachers, or as worship objects themselves), and even organizations like the Watchtower.

Anyone who believes that any human organization is infallible and a direct pipeline to God (and the only such pipeline) is in extreme danger of idolatry.
---StrongAxe on 8/29/11

As usual, MarkV is forced to re-invent the meaning of Greek words for the sake of his false doctrines. MarkV states without any scholarly references- "Stauros" can mean both, "A Cross" and "a stake".' This is of course the gospel according to MarkV and other cross worshippers.

The inspired writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures wrote in the common (koi'ne) Greek and used the word 'stauros' to mean the same thing as in the classical Greek, namely, a simple stake, or pale, without a crossbeam of any kind at any angle. There is no proof to the contrary. (W.E.Vine Expository)

MarkV, your idol worship of the cross has nothing to do with Christ, but everything to do with Tammuz.
---David8318 on 8/29/11

Cluny, regardless of what you may say of Jehovah's Witnesses, your False-odox form of religion has caused more misery, disunity and scriptural falsehoods than all the false religions put together.

Your form of false religion is riddled with cultish idolatry. The amount of wooden statues and crosses your false-odox religion demands, I fear for the rain forests.

Warwick, JW's never said Armageddon would happen on the dates you claim. Armageddon is still future. Unlike the Babylonian form of religious organisation you belong to, JW's are interested in 'Keeping on the watch' for the God's day of Armageddon.
---David8318 on 8/29/11

David, interesting that you mention Armageddon.

The Watchtower, November 1, 1938, p.324 falsely claimed "It would therefore appear that there is no reasonable or Scriptural injunction to bring children into the world immediately before Armageddon, where we now are."

Relevantly since the first Watchtower in 1879 the organization has had a history of proclaiming the end of the world: 1914,1915,1918,1925 etc. Which Armageddon are you writing about?
---Warwick on 8/29/11

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talking about such, did you know that here in africa, upto recent the JW's had versions of their New world translation? i was in a discussion once with a JW guy and he showed me John 1 where it was written and he was god (whilst their normal translation says a god, i was anathemised as soon when i pointed out he wasn't using the proper new world translation.(again)
---andy3996 on 8/29/11

Andy3996, the false accusation you made was the ridiculous statement 'some JW's do treat the watchtower as others would the cross.' I've asked you to explain this accusation. Are you saying JW's believe Jesus died on a Watchtower as those in Christendom believe Jesus dies on a cross? What are you trying to say? You've lost credibility.

And what on earth is a "kringleader", of whom you claim a JW denounced? You are talking gibberish. You're either on drugs or alcohol. None of what you say can be taken seriously.

JW's view the Bible as their authority. As all of Christendom's publications promote Babylonian and Platonic trinity & hellfire falsities, the Watchtower is the only publication promoting scriptural truths.
---David8318 on 8/29/11

MarkV- that's what I said about Matthew 22:21. The issue was over the paying of taxes, not loyalty or allegiance. We pay taxes to Caesar, that's all. Paul amplified on what we 'pay to caesar' in Romans 13:5-7. Nothing of what Paul or Christ said included paying to 'Caesar' our loyalty and allegiance- which is what Darlene1 believes we should pay to 'Caesar'.

Darlene1 (and others) believe we must pay taxes, loyalty and allegiance to 'Caesar'. If that's the case, what did Jesus mean when he said to pay 'Gods things to God'? What are the things we pay to God if they are not our loyalty and allegiance? There's not a lot left to 'pay to God' by the Darlene1's of the world. Not only does Darlene1 worship idols, but also worship of the state.
---David8318 on 8/29/11

\\Jehovah's Witnesses are Bible students, but they do not 'pull it totally out of order, and then give the explanation that fits the JW doctrine' as you assert. JW belief is firmly based on the Bible.\\

But that's EXACTLY what Jehovah's False Witnesses do.

They even publish their own New World Mistranslation of the Bible to support their errors.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/27/11

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David, the word "Stauros" can mean both, "A Cross" and "a stake" in the case of Jesus it meant "a Cross" for later the writer uses the word "crucify" meaning Stauros" to crucify, spoken of the punishment of crucifixion. ( Matt. 20:19, 23:34, 26:2) to crucify the flesh along with its affections and lusts so as to mority them through the faith and love of the crucified Christ (Gal. 5:24, 6:14). While your religion has no respect for the Savior and in the process strips Christ not only of Deity, but even His crucifixion. That is why your religion is heretic.
---Mark_V. on 8/28/11

"Jehovah's Witnesses are Bible students, but they do not 'pull it totally out of order, and then give the explanation that fits the JW doctrine' as you assert. JW belief is firmly based on the Bible." David8318

Yes, the Jehovah Witness bible which they rewrote to suit their doctrine. I could make up a doctrine if I wrote my own bible to support it.
---KarenD on 8/28/11

Darlene1, do you believe come Armageddon when 'the kings of the entire inhabited earth are gathered together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty' (Rev.16:14) that the USA will not be included among those Kings?

All the 'kings' of the earth will be led into opposition to God by Satan and his demons at Armageddon. Nobody has said you are under the power of the wicked one, but the 'wicked one' certainly exerts power over the world. The evidence for Satan influencing the world is clearly seen.

Psalms 47:1-9 is a prophetic description of the time when God will remove and 'subdue' earthly kings.

The cross, saluting a flag, bowing to an edifice (Dan.3:10) are all types of idolatry.
---David8318 on 8/26/11


Colossians 1:16 (also 17) [NWT]
"because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him."

"other" is not in the Greek, and not implied by Greek grammar.

Jehovah's Witnesses add "other" because they believe "Jesus was created. He could not create himself. So, this MUST mean other things" - i.e. rather than deriving their beliefs from scriptures, they reshape scriptures to their beliefs.
---StrongAxe on 8/26/11

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Darlene dear,

I believe that is one messed up gospel you just preached,

2Ti 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Dan 5 V 23

Col 2 V 8

2Ti 3:6
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

2Ti 3:7

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
---Carla on 8/26/11

the fact that the watchtower leaflets are "equal to the bible" in the sense that none can explain the bible independantly allready shows that the watchtower isput it on a pedestal where it doesnt belong.
the fact that i know JW's who know the watchtower booklets from heart whilst they are unable to find their way in any given bible (not all JW's).
the fact that when you question a watchtower-leaflet(some will declare anathema and "shake the dust from their sandals". Above are only three of a number of examples. the fact that JW's keep disagreeing inspite of aercheological proof.
did i ever in an unmature state exagerated the bible? However as soon as i realised i didn' cover up, i repented my evil way
---andy3996 on 8/27/11

Galatians 3:13, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"

When Christ hung and died on the tree, the sins of His people died with Him literally, for He was the perfect sacrifice whom God demanded (the wages of sin is death) and provided for His people as promised before the foundations of the world (1 Peter 1:19,20).

As for making a "cross" and wearing it, you are in disobedience to Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
---christan on 8/27/11

David, your interpretation of Matthew 22:21 is the opposite of what you said. (v. 17-19) The people question the paying of Taxes to Caesar. The main issue was the poll tax an annual fee of one denarious. It was most hated by the Jews. The Jews considered such images on the coins idolaltry, they had Tiberius face on one side, which the Jews felt forbidden by the Second Commandment (Ex. 20:4), which made this tax and these coins doubly offensive. Christ acknowledge Caesar's right to assess and collect taxes, and he made it a duty of Christians to pay them. Caesar had sole authority in the social or political realm, yet ultimately all things are God's (Rom. 11:36, 2 Cor. 5:18, Rev. 4:11).
---Mark_V. on 8/27/11

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\\Jesus Christ is no longer a baby and his mother is never to have the preeminence over him\\

And who believes this, mima?

all TRUE Christians believers in Word Christ Jesus know Christ lived to be aGROWN MAN how could anyone MISS that in Holy Scripture??

TRUTH is Mary is superior to nobody ....she was simply the mother of physical Christ and many other children her role was finished after giving birth and raising HIM ...Apostles preached and taught about Christ and Gods Kingdom to come ...Apostles ONLY mention Mary once after Christs death Acts 1:14

lying false ministers are antichrist to Holy Scripture teaching "maryism" a concept foreign to Holy Scripture Apostles and Christ HIMSELF
---Rhonda on 8/27/11

David i am not aware that i made an accusation, i did specify that

SOME DO, and that most call them weak brothers,

in what way was that an accusation?

then again, it is difficult to a JW to see the weaakness in his own organisation, since the heads are always ready with ANATHEMA. and expulsion.

i have a friend who was expelled because he denounced a "kringleader" for immoral behaviour. i know that is not standard procedure but it happens with the JW's just as it happens with any other humanly held organisation. as long as man is there ther always be slipups as good as the organisation intends are because the err is human...
THIS AGAIN IS NO ACCUSATIION IT's only a matter of facts.
---andy3996 on 8/27/11

Jeremiah 2 & 10 BOTH describe worship of OBJECTS like sticks and stones by pagains - admonishing those who seek to worship other gods USING objects and admonishing those following empty pagan traditions and by doing this how they drift away from the LORD

counterfeit christianity rejects the Word Christ Jesus and simply ignore and dismiss CLEAR instructions and messages in Holy Scripture to serve their gods

wearing of a cross is an object as described in Jeremiah - it is breaking the 2nd commandment

Christ told HIS True followers The Father in Heaven wants those to worship HIM in Truth and Spirit cannot serve both GOD and mammon
---Rhonda on 8/27/11

Alright,well since noone wants to answer my question or even respond to it,ill just leave you all with this verse,"you will be ever hearing but never understanding,you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this peoples heart has become calloused,they hardly hear with their ears,and they have closed their eyes." Isaiah 6:9,10. God bless you all.
---James on 8/27/11

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are they biblestudents or bible explainers?

how come a JW is not allowed to study the bible without the help of the watchtower?
---andy3996 on 8/27/11

Andy3996, you're going from one topic to another. You're all over the place. Can you support your accusations directed at Jehovah's Witnesses with facts, rather than your opinions.

Jehovah's Witnesses are Bible students, but they do not 'pull it totally out of order, and then give the explanation that fits the JW doctrine' as you assert. JW belief is firmly based on the Bible.

Are you sure you are not guilty of 'pulling the Bible out of order' yourself? You state for example, 'as long as he accepts Christ as GOD IN THE FLESH'. I notice you did not provide scripture proof for this statement.

To 'pull' verses from the Bible, Jesus said, 'I am God's Son'- John 10:36. Jesus is 'the Christ, the Son of God'- John 20:31.
---David8318 on 8/26/11

The Greek word from which the English word 'cross' is translated by the churches is 'stauros', but to the Bible writers it did not stand for the cross that churches display as the symbol of Christianity. It meant a plain upright stake.

W. E. Vine states (p.256 vol.1 of his expository): 'Stauros denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb 'stauroo', to fasten to a stake or pale, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross. The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz.'
---David8318 on 8/26/11

David 1883 If that's what you care to believe fine. I think you're very mistaken. The world in the power of the wicked one?,I'm not. Psalms 47:8,9 God is seated in his Holy throne. God rules over the Nations.-for the rulers of earth belong to God. I have many loyalties in life to my Country,family,husband for 56 years,friends and so on . I do have loyality to God but even more than that alone,I have so much more faithfulness, commitment,dedication,adherence to his word,service,love deeper than there are words to describe. The Bible says we are in this world but not of this world. Giving allegiance to a Country takes nothing from God in fact we are obeying the Word for we are told to pray for our leaders that God establishes the thrones.
---Darlene_1 on 8/26/11

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Is the pope a weak catholic?No.Is the pope a weak Christian?Yes.For the fact that he is supposed to teach Gods word and doesn't even follow it himself.God says to pray to Him and only Him,so why do catholics pray to the virgin mary,and all the saints??? All of these people are sinners,just like you and I,so what can they do for you? Only Christ was perfect.The pope states not to ask God for forgiveness of sins,but to ask the pope himself and he will do it. The only thing that can forgive anybody for sin is God.The Bible also says those who know the word and still do not obey it receive an even more harsh punishment. God bless.
---James on 8/26/11

How come nobody has told me what else besides a cross in this world do people make out of wood,say "you are my father"to,decorate it,have to nail it down for it to stand, and looks like a scarecrow? Someone said animals or something like that,but i dont know of any animals that look like scarecrows,or that people say thats their father.Someone please enlighten me. God bless.
---James on 8/26/11

Andy3996 you say, some JW's do treat the watchtower as others would the cross'.

In what way do 'some' JW's treat the Watchtower as others do the cross? Your statement is unqualified. Until you support your statement with fact, your comment is baseless.

Are you trying to say JW's believe Jesus died on the Watchtower- in the same way those in Christendom believe Jesus died on the cross? This is of course absurd. You need to explain yourself better.

You do appear to be grasping at straws. Is the Pope a 'weak' Catholic because he crosses himself when he sees a cross? I don't think you've thought your argument through.
---David8318 on 8/26/11

Like I said, if the very word "Cross" is foolishness to those who are perishing, how much more is its visible representation?

Mahometans hate the Cross, too, and will not allow it to be displayed in mahometan countries.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11

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Darlene1, I believe you forget that the 'whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one' (1 Jo.5:19). Satan is the 'god of this system of things' (2 Cor.4:4). Jesus said 'my Kingdom is no part of this world' (Jo.18:36).

Pledging allegiance and loyalty to any earthly, man-made system is giving to 'caesar' what should only be given to God- Matthew 22:21. The issue at Mt.22:21 was the paying of taxes, not loyalty or allegiance. The US Pledge of Allegiance does have religious connotations.

The 3 Hebrews at Daniel 3 set a fine example in refusing to 'salute' a representation of a man-made national symbol in a religious gesture.

'With someone loyal you will act in loyalty'- Psalms 18:25. A Christian is loyal only to God.
---David8318 on 8/26/11

Several years ago my husband gave me a cross for Christmas. Itis a cross with large diamonds set in gold and is just beautiful. When I wear that cross it reminds me that my husband gave it to me which makes it very special. The cross is a symbol of the blood of Christ shed for our sins but to me it is also a symbol of my husbands love. How he searched to find just the right cross to please me. You see you can't always know why people wear a cross,there are some reasons you don't even think of.
---Darlene_1 on 8/26/11

\\Jesus Christ is no longer a baby and his mother is never to have the preeminence over him\\

And who believes this, mima?

Do you personally know anybody who does?

I surely don't.

Sounds to me like you're using a straw-man argument here.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/11

James, I am so liking your answers to the wearing of these things and also the fact that there are some traditions of men, Christ came to put to remind the church not to do and to remeber in addition to the ordinances set out that we should be keeping instead all of these additional heresies like christmas birthday, halloween, pleading the blood , repenting at the cross rubbish that false leaders preach to their congregations.

No wonder when people go for prayer the go home and die from their illnesses.
---Carla on 8/26/11

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Matthew 22:21 Render therefore unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's,and unto God what is God's. The Pledge of Allegiance merely stands for our loyality to our Nation. Most do it with bent arm with hand open over chest or more specific hand over heart. No American salutes the flag except the Military. The Pledge is Temporal of this life and the cross is a sign of the way into a spiritual life through Christ,with God,for eternity. Loyality to ones Nation does not exclude our total commitment to God.
---Darlene_1 on 8/26/11

David, That is exacltely bible study the JW style, take a happening in the bible, pull it totally out of order, and then give the explanation that fits the JW doctrine.
i say again i am in my church because it is there that i am free in all ideas proposed, i disagree with certain things of other churches. but that does not imply they cannot be saved. le God deside. for me it is good to not reject anyone as a true Christian as long as he
accepts Christ as GOD IN THE FLESH THAT CAME TO DIE FOR OUR SINS. now whoever believes in GOD JEZUS will be saved. since the judge is on the throne i look at what people belief about Christ. before i call anyone brother.
---andy3996 on 8/26/11

Flag saluters- 'Are they guilty of idolatry?' (Cluny 8/25/11)

Of course they are. Flag saluting was a huge issue in the US during the 1940's and 50's. In many respects it still is.

People do not just salute a flag in the US. They recite the 'Pladge of Allegiance' to the flag. For true Christians, their allegiance is only to Jehovah.

Schools compelled students to salute the flag only until Jehovah's Witnesses took the issue to the US Supreme Court and in the decision West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), JW's won the battle stopping schools forcing students to salute the flag.

The 3 Hebrew boys at Daniel 3 faced a very similar situation on the Plains of Dura.
---David8318 on 8/26/11

Some are so attached to the physical cross that they do not realize nor understand that the cross has become an idol to them. Just as the physical cross is not to be worshiped neither is portraying the Lord Jesus Christ as a baby on his mother's knee to be idolized. Jesus Christ is no longer a baby and his mother is never to have the preeminence over him.
---mima on 8/25/11

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Actually i didnt ask the same question. I had said in order to remember Christ and what he did for us,we should celebrate the festivals that he taught us and also live how he lived. A cross and wearing one can not give you eternal life,so theres no point in even owning one,to me at least. If you really want to remember the Lord and what hes done for us,dont wear a cross just to show you beleive in Jesus,celebrate Gods appointed festivals that he gave to us since the time of Moses,and thats what Jesus came 4
---James on 8/25/11

The cross on the other hand for many enslaved to idolatrous Christendom do view it as a religious symbol worthy of worship & veneration, and cannot do without it.
Agreed, but some JW's do treat the watchtower as others would the cross, you call them "weaker brothers" as do we call those who worship the cross weaker. justt like us, youendure these weak oines in the hope they come to a full recognition.
i agree that (you refer to the RCC) some seem to idolater things, but much we condemn is rather based on a lack of knowledge from our part.
---andy3996 on 8/25/11

2 however that does by no means imply i agree with everything happening in the RCC, and much is not to my likings.
i totaly disagree with the infallibility of the pope, then again, not every catholic agrees with thatb as well,
i also disagree with prayers to anyone else then to God, but i do not confuse symbolism with idolatry as some tend (know that the RCC condemned orthodox because of their iconoclasm)
---andy3996 on 8/25/11

The New Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The representation of Christ's redemptive death on Golgotha does not occur in the symbolic art of the first Christian centuries. The early Christians, influenced by the Old Testament prohibition of graven images, were reluctant to depict even the instrument of the Lords Passion." NCE, 1967, Vol. IV, p. 486.
---scott on 8/25/11

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I didnt ask the same question actually,but to put it bluntly for everybody,wearing,setting up,or just having a cross cannot give u eternal life,so why even own one? if u really want to remember what Christ has done for us,then keep the festivals which he taught us,the same feasts all the way from Moses time. That gives glory to God,and it says it in the Word. it does not say anywhere in the bible to have a cross,new or old test. So if u want to remember what Gods done for us,then we need to follow his word.
---James on 8/25/11

\\Many of Christendoms adherents cannot pass by a cross without crossing themselves.\\

By the same token, many people cannot pass a US flag without taking off their hats and saluting it.

Are they guilty of idolatry?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/11

\\? The cross is not Jesus,Or God,So why wear it around your neck,Or hang it up in your house? That would be considered an idol wouldnt it?\\

Several people have already told you repeatedly that it isn't.

Why do you ask the same question again? Do you just not like the answers you got?

It's not idolatry the first time you asked, and it won't be idolatry the last time you ask, either.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 8/25/11

James....I am a "people" and I don't do any of the things you say "people" do with crosses. The scriptures to which you refer are dealing with actual carved idols that people worshipped. I don't know any "people" who worship the cross. Jesus died on that cross for you too. HE can give you eternal life too.
---KarenD on 8/25/11

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Andy3996- if the cross has as much effect on you as a car badge or the Watchtower symbol on a Watchtower book, then you are not as engrossed in idolatry as others are.

For many, the cross is a symbol of worship and veneration- not just for those in Christendom. Many of Christendoms adherents cannot pass by a cross without crossing themselves.

When was the last time you saw someone cross themselves when they saw a Mercedes badge? I never make a religious gesture of any sort when I see the Watchtower symbol- it is just a symbol.

The cross on the other hand for many enslaved to idolatrous Christendom do view it as a religious symbol worthy of worship & veneration, and cannot do without it.
---David8318 on 8/25/11

Thank u very much Carla. Now Darlene,you raise a very good point about the Passover,so why use a symbol of a cross to remember what Jesus has done for us when Jesus clearly tells us that celebrating the Passover is what forgives us for our sins (matt.26.26-29), not just him dying on the cross. In fact,even if we beleive Jesus died on the cross for our sins,and do not celebrate the passover,then we truly dont have the body and blood of Jesus in us,so were not even saved! We need the passover to be saved.
---James on 8/25/11

Crosses are not required and are not symbolic of representing Christ in no way shape or form. These are idol's that originate from misinterpretation of scriptures.

The tree that Christ was hung on was not meant to be symbolism in the way of wearing or bowing down to any artifact as the church has being practicing for years, Jeremiah warned of these things....
---Carla on 8/25/11


Some people use crosses to remind them of their connection to Jesus, and/or to show others that they have such a commitment - which is fine. But others use crosses as magic amulets to ward away evil. When used in this way, it IS idolatry.

In the same way that when people go to the Lincoln Memorial to remember the freedoms that Abraham Lincolon fought for are not committing idolatry, but people who bring grain offerings to a statue of a saint in order to obtain favorable harvest ARE committing idolatry.
---StrongAxe on 8/25/11

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James no,no the cross isn't a symbol of Jesus,but of the blood he shed on that cross,his sacrifice, to give us the chance to come to him and repent of our sins. It is a rememberance of Christs death for our sins,just as the wine and bread are a rememberance of Christ for Jesus himself told us to take the bread and wine and when doing it remember him. The cross is a symbol of the fact we are people who accept Christ who shed his blood on that cross for our sins,the cross symbolizes who we are in Christ,Christians. Its like a name on a house saying Frenchmen live here. To me the cross is a symbol that we love and belong to God . Its saying a Christian lives here.
---Darlene_1 on 8/25/11

While some people wear crosses for that reason,some don't. Some people like me wear crosses not as a symbol of Jesus,but as a symbol of love,respect,thankfulness of what Jesus did for us by going to the cross and dying for us on the cross. But He didn't stay on the cross,He rose up again on the Third day. I wear the cross as a reminder of what He did for me,and if He hadn't done what He did,i would be going to hell when i die. I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior into my heart,and i know one day i will be going to heaven. That is what Jesus did for me. So i look at the cross as a reminder of He done for me so i could be with him in heaven one day. I don't look at it as a symbol of Jesus,or worship it like a idol either.
---alice on 8/25/11

wow! scripture that is applied to its exact opposite meaning.
---aka on 8/25/11

Ok James, granted the cross is not Christ, so why ware it?
the flag of your nation is not the nation, so why put it up?
the star of Mercedes isn't mercedes, so why have it on the car? the tower on the watchtowerbooks isnt the watchtower, so why printit? the 50% dealcoupon in the gazet isn't the money, so why putit?
as long there's man, there will be symbolism, sacred or otherwise. gues what, we learned it from GOD. Jesus Lion of Judah, Lamb of God, the HS a dove,the fourgospels lion, eagle, calf, and a man. (revelation4:7)
symbolism is used to express an idea or a value. look at the money, it's only paper but it symbolises the weight of Gold silve and copper. i rest my case.
---andy3996 on 8/25/11

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I really wish people would stop misapplying scripture to misdefine and misdirect people to lead them astray. Jeremiah is clearly speaking about idolatry. He is not speaking about Jewelry that people wear nor is he speaking about Christmas trees. Jewelry and Christian Jewelry is not idolatry, for I know of no one whom consults their jewelry for advice, nor bows down and worships their jewelry as God.
---Eloy on 8/25/11

James- the Bible does not command anyone to worship, or pray using a cross. There are no scriptures commanding the use of a cross in worship or any other idol.

In fact, the use of a cross as a religious symbol pre-dates Christ. The ancient Egyptians used the cross and can be seen in Egyptian reliefs and ancient Egyptian wall drawings as the 'Anc'. The 'Anc' (T shaped symbol with a loop above it) is still used in Christendom and its church leaders.

'Ages long before the birth of Christ... the Cross has been used as a sacred symbol. The Greek Bacchus, the Tyrian Tammuz, the Chaldean Bel, and the Norse Odin, were all symbolised... by a cruciform device.' The Cross in Ritual, Architecture, and Art (London, 1900),G.S.Tyack.
---David8318 on 8/25/11

I never heard that the cross is a symbol of Jesus. I've always heard that it was a symbol of His sacrifice for our sins. Even so, it is Christ we are grateful to. Not the cross. I look at the cross as a reminder of what it cost our Lord to redeem us from sin, death, hell. It's what the person feels in their heart as to whether the cross is an idol to them. But to say wearing a cross necklace is the same as worshipping an idol, there I disagree.
---Reba on 8/25/11

I just dont know what else a craftsman shapes out of wood,decorates it,looks like a scarecrow,and people say"you are my father" to. What else do people pray to that fits that discription? Dont people say that the cross is a symbol of Jesus Christ? The cross is not Jesus,Or God,So why wear it around your neck,Or hang it up in your house? That would be considered an idol wouldnt it? The cross was just a way they killed people in that time,so if they wouldve shot Jesus,would you wear guns on jewlry to show how our Savior was killed?I certainly hope not. But if there is just one scripture that says the cross is a symbol of Jesus,can someone please tell me where its at? God bless.
---James on 8/24/11

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If the preaching of the Cross ("The very word 'cross'" as it reads in Slavonic) is foolishness to those who are perishing. how much more its image or other visible reminder of it is offensive to the lost?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/24/11

The verses you mentioned in Jeremiah are talking about idols being worshipped instead of God. Some may hold the cross in high esteem however, I've never personally known anyone who worships the cross as a god. The cross for me is a cruel sign of what it cost my saviour to save me from my sins & it is a true symbol of what love really is. Nothing more & most certainly nothing less. We should always give thanks to God for the cross & what it stands for in our life. It deserves to be treated with respect.
---Reba on 8/24/11

Those verses don't refer to crosses.What they did of wood and stone was to carve the likeness of animals or people making idols of them to bow down and woeship. We neirher bow down nor worship the cross but do worship he who died upon it for our sins. The cross is only a symbol showing we are Christians just as a fish was a symbol used by early Christians. We do follow Gods Word by not bowing down and worshiping idols.
---Darlene_1 on 8/24/11

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