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Christ Is God In The Flesh

Many people deny and reject that CHRIST IS GOD IN THE FLESH, and took on the form of humanity. As an individual, how do you reconcile what is written in the following passages of scripture, Genisis 1:1, Matthew 1:16-23, Matthew 4:1-10, and John 1:1-18?

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 ---Rob on 9/4/11
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"Homework" aka

Here's something to get you on your way:

The (Trinitarian) New International Dictionary of NT Theology, 1986, Vol. 2 states:

"Emmanuel...[Isa. 7:14 and 8:8] means lit. God [is] with us...the name is given to a child [one of Isaiah's sons?] as yet not conceived...a sign of Gods gracious saving presence among his people .... [Emmanuel] could be a general statement that the birth and naming of the special child will indicate that the good hand of God is upon us." p. 86.

"[Matt. 1:23]...the birth of Jesus [is] a saving act of God, [John 3:16] comparable with the birth of the first Emmanuel. Both births signify Gods presence with his people through a child." p. 87.
---scott on 9/8/11

Warwick is 'misleading and being misled'- 2 Tim.3:13.

Thomas did not say 'the God of me'. This is the Greek word for word. Thomas likely speaking Hebrew said ' God' as nearly all translations will agree. Trinitarians are fascinated by the sayings of the imperfect Thomas and deny the words of Christ when he said, 'I am ascending to my God'- Jo.20:17.

Jesus is not the Creator or Alpha and Omega. These titles belong only to Jehovah God.

Isaiah 43:11, Jehovah was Israel's saviour out of Egypt and on many other occasions. As for Christians, Jude 25- 'to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord.' (NIV) Jehovah is our saviour 'through Jesus Christ'. Jesus is not Jehovah.
---David8318 on 9/8/11

scott, yes, i did make a mistake. but, reputation is nor what i seek. Jesus was perfect and He was disregarded, maligned, and mocked by thos who do not know who He really is. so, it does not matter about my reputation.

NWT Mat 1:23 Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Immanuel, which means, when translated, With Us Is God.

Now time to do my homework...
---aka on 9/7/11

"What is the god which you serve?" Rob

"As for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah." Joshua 24:15 ASV
---scott on 9/7/11

Andy- getting picky now. Let me remind you that you haven't quoted John 1:18 in full yet, neither have you refuted the fact that 'no man has seen God', and you avoid the issue of what it means to be in the 'bosom position' with the Father. NIV says, 'who is at the Father's side'. Afraid of tackling the issue of what 'bosom' (kol-pos) means? 'Position'... 'side'... I can only imagine the headache this gives you.

Neither have you refuted the fact that your trinity doctrine teaches polytheism. If you want to be a proud polytheist trinitarian, that's your prerogative.

I do agree that the pagan trinity is 'beyond logic'. Most trinitarians will eventually admit the trinity is a 'mystery'- a mystery beyond logic.
---David8318 on 9/7/11

Paul, you grumbling about Kath not answering your question is quite ironic.

As has been explained here many times Scripture says Jesus is fully God and fully man. As a man he can be subjected to temptation by another. But the point is that he resisted the tempter.

Where does Scripture say Jesus is fully God and fully man? In many places but it is perfectly summed up in Hebrews chapter 1 and chapter 2.

BTW Scripture does not have to literally say "fully God and fully man" for the meaning to be clear.

---Warwick on 9/7/11

Scott, Jesus is God for numerous reasons.

He is Creator Redeemer, Saviour, the Alpha and the Omega-all titles shared with God.

Isaiah 43:11 says only Jahweh is saviour. Therefore a claim to be saviour is a claim to be Yahweh. In the NT Jesus is the Saviour, therefore Yahweh.

He is the Son of God therefore equal with the Father, as an earthly son is equal with his father.

He is in very nature God.

He is named Jehovah Our Righteousness. He is just that as 1 Corinthians 1:30 attests.

His mortal enemies killed Him, whom they saw as mere man, because He claimed to be God.

Thomas called Him "...the God of me."

And more...
---Warwick on 9/7/11

Paul, I believe I have answered your questions. If Jesus wasn't FULLY God manifest in the flesh, then I'm sure like us, being only flesh he would have sinned.

JESUS HUMAN NATURE WAS sinless, JUST AS His Divine nature was sinless.

He was tempted in all ways JUST LIKE US who are humans, yet without with that Paul, So He could be that faithful High Priest in helping us with our infirmities.
---kathr4453 on 9/7/11

Paul, Jesus said FOLLOW ME! His obedience was for an example for us to follow.

2 Corinthians 4:10
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Philippians 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death,
---kathr4453 on 9/7/11

Well, according to the ORIGINAL, GOD in 1st Timothy 3:16 Strongs 2316, is the exact word in John 1. who was GOD 2316.
---kathr4453 on 9/7/11

MarkV, I was looking for "chris", realized it was me, chria/christina, typo I've made before...I'm thinking, just as we must lay down self at His feet to be more like Him, He chose to lay down His nature (divine) to become flesh, Phil 2:6.7 "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage, 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." divine nature did not cease to exist, just as our flesh does not cease to exist. "if we are to believe in our rebirth, how can we do that without the Divine Spirit of Christ in us?" Agree. the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God Ro 8:16
---chris9396 on 9/7/11


You have never answered my question I have asked you several times, and I understand why.

If Jesus is God how was He tempted?

---paul on 9/7/11

Scott, what is the god which you serve?
---Rob on 9/7/11

Paul, I never said Christ was the Father Himself. His the Son. Each One holds a position in the Godhead. The Father did not come in the flesh, the Son did, Christ. He was sent by the Father. Christ did not become the Son of God in His humanity, He was the Son of God by Divine nature. His human nature was of the seed of David, the son of Mary, the firstborn of the dead of all creation in His humanity. But in His Divine nature He was the Son of God. When the Father sent Him, He did not created Him Son. Senting Him does not mean created Him. Read the Scriptures cleary with an open heart, because in order to teach at any Christian Church you need to know the distiction of the two natures. That's where the heretics attack the Deity of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 9/7/11

"Gabriel-God" Mark_V

The quagmire that trinitarians find themselves in when trying to find support for their doctrine is like a parent convincing himself that his hideous child is actually adorable in the right light. They reason:

Jesus is God because he is called Emmanuel -(God is with us).

But they have to 'turn the lights down' or off when it comes to similar references applied to individuals that are not God.

Jehu means: 'Jehovah is he' or 'He is Jehovah'.

Jehu was not Jehovah.

To force a trinitarian conclusion in one instance while ignoring all of the other instances that undermine that conclusion is not a search for truth but blind special pleading.
---scott on 9/7/11

David where did you find 'position' in that scripture, first you don't quote the full text, then to refute you add words that are not there to be found. as a "trinitarian" something i am quite pride of, i believe Christ is the substance of the father, as the bible truly reveals we donot and never teached that Christ is the father. but we do and continue to teach that Christ is ETERNAL GOD. we teach that the Name (not names) is the father the son and the Holy Spirit.we have teached and accepted this because it is the "only revealed truth which is logical. (that it is beyond logic)
PS. remember the scriptures used to establish trinity where read in its original language by everyone who seperately came to the same conclusion.
---andy3996 on 9/7/11

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"Rephrase: [NLT] The version that JWs like to use." aka

Rephrase: You are mistaken. The New Living "Translation" is a paraphased edition and doesn't even technically fit the description of a "Translation" because of it's loose adherence to the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic biblical languages.

Do your homework if you want to be taken seriously. Jehovah's Witnesses use lots of translations for comparison but the NLT is not likely high on anyone's list because of it's (like all paraphrases) loose treatment of God's inspired word.
---scott on 9/7/11

I don't deny Christs divine nature but you have to admit that He is the Son of the Father and not the Father Himself.

---paul on 9/7/11

This is exactly what happens with the eternal son dogma.

GOD was made flesh.

Isaiah 43:10-11!

SON is His Position as the FIRST BORN. FIRSTBORN means POSITION as well.

Just as Esau was technically the Firstborn, Jacob, renamed Israel was God's Firstborn.

Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
---kathr4453 on 9/7/11

Andy- Jesus being in the 'bosom position with the Father' makes Jesus God? How do you work that one out? Do you not know what 'in the bosom position' means? So you believe there are 2 God's? 'God the Son is in the bosom position with God the Father'. As always Andy, your trinitarian theory promotes polytheism.

Marc- yet again you've got it all wrong with your ant/dog rhetoric. Jesus was not an angel or man-angel on earth. Not even God. Jesus was made 'lower than the angels'. Jesus was a human being on earth- an 'ant' in your understanding. Jesus 'emptied himself and took a slaves form'- Phil.2:7. Not the form of God... or an angel.

Jesus reflected his Father's qualities perfectly- reason why Jesus said what he said at John 14:9.
---David8318 on 9/7/11

Westcott etc WERE Trinitarians.

The Watchtower is behind this calumny...
---Marc on 9/6/11

Doesn't make sense since I'm sure the Watchtower was over joyed with the new translation. Maybe you should read the very words from their own mouths i.e. Life and Letters of Westcott and Hort. Both men rejected the infallibility of the bible. Both men didnt believe the bible was the inspired word of God. Hort referred to the doctrine of substitutionary atonement as "immoral". Westcott didnt believe in the historical accuracy of Genesis one to three and Hort was a Darwinist and denied the divinity of Christ. Dean Burgon certainly didnt have anything good to say about Westcott & Hort in his book, The Revision Revised.
---Jason1072 on 9/7/11

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Warwick, please open your Bible and read it. Who do you think Moses was communicating with on Mount Sinai? It wasn't men from Mars? Moses knew he was communicating with God.

Acts 7:38- 'He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, and he received living words to pass on to us.' (NIV)

Without the pagan trinity, there is no contradiction. Jehovah transmitted the Law to Moses through 'the angel' on Mt.Sinai. Yes I agree with you on one point- that angel was likely God's Son, the Word- the pre-human Jesus.

Jesus is not 'God', but 'the angel' who transmitted the Law to Moses. Thus it still remains a Biblical fact- 'No man has seen God at any time'- Jo.1:18.
---David8318 on 9/7/11

Warwick // Interesting but Exodus 24:10 says 70+ people saw "the God of Israel.// indeed but then again Deutero 4:12 needs to be put next to this event to understand it to the full...
---andy3996 on 9/7/11

Just a word of wisdon here or shall I say for some common sense.

Your going to argue here is this good NO.

Come out from amongst the NAMES and false interpretations of the churches and read the bible indiscriminately for yourself.

The muslims and other faiths are wripping apart your false interpretation of the trinity, jesus only, calvinism, mormonism and all the other isms and scisims.

STOP YOUR FIGHTING AND REASON LOGICALLY AND SOUNDLY putting away all disputations that do not have any clarity according to the nearest biblical accounts.

You are all losing the battle, becasue you all profess Christ but cannot agree.

---Carla on 9/7/11

Also, we are told by God that only God saves, If Jesus Christ saves, He has to be God.
---Mark_V. on 9/7/11

What we are told is that anyone who comes to the Father come through Jesus Christ the Son.

I don't deny Christs divine nature but you have to admit that He is the Son of the Father and not the Father Himself.

---paul on 9/7/11

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Scott, you wrote (or cut and pasted) "Was Gabriel calling himself God when he visited Mary and declared: "The Lord is with thee". Luke 1:28 ?

As I keep telling you Scott it is all about context.

See verse 26, 27 which says God sent Gabriel to Mary. Therefore Gabriel was only conveying that his Master "the Lord" is with her.
---Warwick on 9/7/11

Scott, try as I may I cannot comprehend what you are trying to prove.

Whether we translate 1 Timothy 3:16 as he, God or Christ changes nothing.

Who appeared in a body? Christ did. Hebrews 10:5 Christ said "a body you prepared for me."

And who is Christ:

In Hebrews 1 God says Christ is:

vs 3 The exact representation of God's being.
vs 5 God's Son.
vs 6 To be worshipped by all angels.
vs 8 The God whose throne lasts for eternity.
vs 8,9 Righteous as per Jehovah Our Righteousness Jeremiah 23:6.
vs 10 The Creator God.
vs 12 Eternal.
vs 13 Above all angels.

Christ is God, forever praised
---Warwick on 9/7/11

Yes, my apologies Scott. The Watchtower isn't behind the calumny against Westcott at al: they just regurgitate it through websites run by its members.
---Marc on 9/7/11

David you worry about 'incarnate' which is just another way to express the idea of 1 Timothy 3:16 "He appeared in a body" (NIV). The fact that incarnate cannot be found in Scripture is irelevant as neither can Jehovah!

You believe John 1:18 "stumps the trinitarian- 'No man has seen God at any time." Interesting but Exodus 24:10 says 70+ people saw "the God of Israel."

How do you explain this? Does Scripture contradict itself or is there an explanation.

Who did they see?

Did they not see God the Son who is "the image of the invisible God..." Colossians 1:15.

Is this not what Jesus said "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" John 14:9? Also John 12:45
---Warwick on 9/7/11

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Scott, you gave the passage in Luke
"Was Gabriel calling himself God when he visited Mary?" Of course not. (v.26) tells us the angel Gabriel was sent by God." your trying to confuse the context.
Then give Luke 1:68,69 to confuse the context again, saying:
"Did Zachariah mean that John the Baptist (his new son) was actually God" of course not, no where does the context say that. It says that by the Lord visiting them, He had raised up a horn of salvation for them. A common expression in the O.T, (2 Samuel 22:3, Ps. 18:2: 1 Samuel 2:1) The horn is symbol of strength (Deut. 33:17). The One raised up in the house of David could not be John, but spoke of Someone greater then John.
---Mark_V. on 9/7/11

//"In the bible, even your version (NLT)": aka...The NLT is not a JW translation. // - rephrase: The version that JWs like to use.

//Was Gabriel calling himself God when he visited Mary and declared: "The Lord is with thee". Luke 1:28 ?// - C'mon, baby, let's do the twist

//"I wonder what this child will turn out to be?", and he answered, "Praise the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has come to visit..// - let's twist again, like we did last summer. ...let's twist again like we did last year.

Luk 1:76 And you [John], child, will be called the prophet of the Most High, for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways,

one verse theology with a twist.
---aka on 9/7/11

Chris, their arguments are rediculous, they only see the human nature of Christ, and when they argue they argue everything from His humanity. And since He was obedient to the Father, they insist, how can He be God. They cannot belive He had a Divine nature. He was always the Son, the Word who would testify of the Father. Speak for Him in the last days. How could He not be from God if He testified of Him? And if we are to believe in our rebirth, how can we do that without the Divine Spirit of Christ in us? Also, we are told by God that only God saves, If Jesus Christ saves, He has to be God. We are told that "all come short of the glory of God" because all sin, only God is perfect. Yet Jesus Christ did not sin because He was perfect.
---Mark_V. on 9/7/11

Mark V,

Threaten you? What in the world are you talking about?
---James_L on 9/6/11

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Scott, as I have said before you are the Cut and Paste Kid. Your post, part of which I include below, is cut word for word from a JW website. And without any acknowledgement. I would like to give a link but the rules here do not allow:

"Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with "God", nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: "he" (NIV, RSV, NRSV, JB, NJB, REB, NAB [`70], AT, GNB, CBW, and Beck's translation), "he who" (ASV, NASB, NEB, MLB, BBE, Phillips, and Moffatt), "who," or "which."

Even the equally old Douay version has "which was manifested in the flesh."

Dear oh dear.
---Warwick on 9/6/11

Paul, it is not that you are boring but that you do not have the courage to tell us what you do believe.

I'll just have a nap waiting.
---Warwick on 9/6/11

"If you cannot believe Jesus Christ had a human nature and a Divine nature, how could you possibly believe in rebirth, that Jesus Christ lives in you?" Good point MarkV. This immediately came to mind: Col 1:27-29 "To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. 29 To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me."
---chris9396 on 9/6/11

"Westcott etc WERE Trinitarians...The Watchtower is behind this calumny..." Marc

Hah, that's really amusing.

Did you actually even read my post? (To kathr4453) to which Jason1072 responded.

Who's misrepresenting who's reputation? Calumny indeed.
---scott on 9/6/11

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David and Scott, the original language which the Bible was written is Hebrew, Armaic, and Greek.

The New Testament was written in Greek.

Everytime you find the name/word God in the New Testament, in Greek the word is "THEOS" which means Supreme Divinity, and Very Exceeding God.

In case you are wondering how I know this, my answer is I have been researching Hebrew and Greek, for many, many, many years.
---Rob on 9/6/11

1 Timothy 3:16 - Commentaries" Warwick

Commentary on the Greek NT by the United Bible Society (UBS -1971) regarding their decision to use oV (who) as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

"it is supported by the earliest and best uncials." And, "Thus, no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports qeoV ["God"], all ancient versions presuppose oV ["who" - masc.] or o ["which" - neut.], and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [370 A.D.] testifies to the reading qeoV. The reading qeoV arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as QC, or (b) deliberately...." p. 641.
---scott on 9/6/11

1 Timothy 3:16 - Commentaries (2) Warwick, Jason1072

NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun oV (who) in this scripture and tells us:

"The textual variant qeoV in the place of oV has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the `majority text' school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested, but the syntactical argument... is entirely without weight...

...As attractive theologically [for trinitarians] as the reading qeoV may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course, it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text." -

Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996, pp. 341-342,
---scott on 9/6/11

Paul, more evasion.
---Warwick on 9/6/11


---paul on 9/6/11

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Westcott etc WERE Trinitarians. You shouldn't believe internet sites which don't document their claims.

My 1885 edition of Westcott's 'The Historical Faith: Short lectures on The Apostles' Creed', page 49ff, says, ''[Jesus'] Godhead is one with the Godhead of the Father, His sovereignty over men is absolute. Christians are sons of God, but sons by adoption in virtue of their fellowship with Him Who is Son by the only Son of God, and therefore Himself in essence very God.'' No non-Trinitarian would confess this!

The Watchtower is behind this calumny, this attack on truly Christian men who no longer are able to defend themselves. The Watchtower seeks to divide and conquer with this lie about Westcott et al.
---Marc on 9/6/11

If we follow through with The Watchtower theology, God's Fatherhood is entirely dependent upon the creation and not on His eternally being Father. For the Watchtower God to be Father he had to bring into being a creature called Michael, an angel. God's Fatherhood didn't and couldn't exist before a creature existed. God can't be an eternal Father but had a beginning.

Only if Jesus is co-eternal with the Father can God be a Father always and who isn't dependent on the creation to be Father.

''Seeing there are things more true than plain our tendency is to make them more plain than true.''
---Marc on 9/6/11

"Rom. 9:5" Jason1072

"[If the words were directed to Christ] Christ would not be equated absolutely with God, but only described as being of divine nature, for the word theos [at Rom 9:5] has no article. But this ascription of majesty does not occur anywhere else in Paul. The much more probable explanation is that the statement is a Doxology [praise] directed to God."

The (trinitarian) New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology Vol. 2, p. 80, Zondervan, 1986.

"Blessed forever be God who is over all! Amen." NAB, 1970

"God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen." RSV

See also the NEB, REB, NLV, Mo (Moffatt), ETRV, AT (Goodspeed), etc.
---scott on 9/6/11

"he" (NIV, RSV, NRSV, JB, NJB, REB, NAB [`70], AT, GNB, CBW, and Beck's translation), "he who" (ASV, NASB, NEB, MLB, BBE, Phillips, and Moffatt), "who," or "which."

(including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word oV ("who") here instead of qeoV ("God"). ---scott on 9/6/11

Of course all of those translations agree because they are based on the same corrupt manuscripts. It could hardly be said that Westcott and Hort were trinitarians. They certainly didnt believe Jesus Christ was God. It is very clear from the majority text that Christ is God. If you dont accept that then you are lost.
---Jason1072 on 9/6/11

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"In the bible, even your version (NLT)": aka

The NLT is not a JW translation.

"Emmanuel" (God with us)." aka

Was Gabriel calling himself God when he visited Mary and declared: "The Lord is with thee". Luke 1:28 ?

Did Zachariah mean that John the Baptist (his new son) was actually God when he was asked, "I wonder what this child will turn out to be?", and he answered, "Praise the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has come to visit his people and has redeemed them."? Luke 1:66-68, LB

Four individuals in the Bible are named 'Jehu'.

Jehu means: 'Jehovah is he' or 'He is Jehovah'.

None of these men were actually Jehovah.
---scott on 9/6/11

David, that is why most of you are not born of the Spirit. You cannot possibly believe that Christ spiritually can live within you. If you cannot believe Jesus Christ had a human nature and a Divine nature, how could you possibly believe in rebirth, that Jesus Christ lives in you? You say He was only human in nature, not Divine, so how could He possibly live in you? Just not possible. His human body was only One. Your whole salvation goes down the gutter.
---Mark_V. on 9/6/11

Paul, more evasion.
---Warwick on 9/6/11

David8318 said:Jesus was not God incarnate. God is 'a Spirit'- Jo.4:24.

Yea...just like ice. It can't be water, water is a liquid.
---JIM on 9/6/11

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James L, I could not answer you on the other blog but I will answer here. You cannot stop me from defending the eternal Sonship of Christ. So please don't threaten me. I'm not afraid to defend the essentials of the Christian faith with anyone. If someone teaches another Jesus and not the Eternal Son, then I have as much right to defend against heretical teachings with anyone. Thousands have died for the Truth, small threat's do not bother me. I was not even answering you, I was anwering Kathr on the created Son she introduced. He did not become the Son, He was always the Son. If you have questions on Scripture put them down. But please don't threaten me.
---Mark_V. on 9/6/11

Regarding 1 Timothy 3:16 I note that 6 translations say "God" was manifest in flesh, 6 "he" 3 "Christ" and not one says "Jesus."

It would appear to me, and to commentaries that "he" refers to Christ. And this is the same as saying God, for numerous reasons. For example Jeremiah 23:6 tells us the coming Messiah, (or Christ in Greek),He who said "a body you have prepared for me" Hebrews 10:5, is "Jehovah Our Righteousness."

As John 1:14 says "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

This is Immanuel, God with us!
---Warwick on 9/6/11

God made everything (Genesis 1:1) through His Son Jesus (John 1:1-18). And Jesus is all that God is, in human form, "full of grace and truth" (John 1:14). It is like how gold is in different places, but gold can be in the form of a cup, while elsewhere also.

And we are to worship God, alone (Matthew 4:1-10), and Jesus says the Father "'has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.'" (in John 5:22-23)
---Bill_willa6989 on 9/6/11

Timothy 3,16- kathr4453

Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with "God", nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: "he" (NIV, RSV, NRSV, JB, NJB, REB, NAB [`70], AT, GNB, CBW, and Beck's translation), "he who" (ASV, NASB, NEB, MLB, BBE, Phillips, and Moffatt), "who," or "which."

Even the equally old Douay version has "which was manifested in the flesh." All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word oV ("who") here instead of qeoV ("God").
---scott on 9/6/11

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David you forgot a small part of verse 18 the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
thanks but then again this is typical JW tactics isn't it?
read also Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22, Collosians 1:15, and very important 1 Timothy 6:14-17) try to use a bible everyone agrees on.
---andy3996 on 9/6/11

Matthew 1:16-23 proves Jesus (or God for that matter) was not incarnated on earth. Jesus was born in the natural way as a flesh and blood human being. God did not 'incarnate' himself on earth in any form whatsoever. 'Incarnate' is not a Bible word, but like the trinity doctrine, stems from pagan Egyptian mythology.

Jesus was not God incarnate. God is 'a Spirit'- Jo.4:24. Jesus was born naturally in the flesh.

Matthew 4:1-10 proves Jesus was not God. Do trinitarians honestly believe Satan was tempting God!? How ridiculous! 'For with evil things God cannot be tried'- James 1:13.

John 1:1-18. Verse 18 stumps the trinitarian- 'No man has seen God at any time.' How can this be if Jesus is God? ANS: Jesus (the Word) was not God.
---David8318 on 9/6/11

David8318: The verse that normally makes JW people speechless the time we had encountered is Isaiah 9:6 where God pronounced through Prophet Isaiah that the name of the child to be born is "Eternal(or Everlasting) Father". This fact was intact in the JW Bible up till 2007, I do not know if it is still the same.
---Adetunji on 9/6/11

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
---andy3996 on 9/6/11

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Where does the Bible specifically state Jesus is 'fully God' or even 'God'?---David8318 on 9/5/11

Rom. 9:5 - Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever.

Col. 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Titus 2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Heb. 1:8 - But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
There are many more passages, but of course if you're using corrupt manuscripts your bible will say something totally different.
---Jason1072 on 9/6/11

As demonstrated by trinitarians, the teaching that Jesus Christ is 'God' or 'fully God' is unscriptural. And for good reason because teaching Jesus is 'fully God' is antichrist- 1 Jo.4:2.

Warwick perfectly demonstrates how his belief is antichrist. Warwick believes Jesus is 'God' before he came to earth, was 'God' on earth and is 'God' after His resurrection. Jesus said 'God is a Spirit'- Jo.4:24. The Warwick/trinitarian view is thus- Jesus is '...a Spirit'. This is antichrist.

Warwick does touch on the truth, but rejects it. Jesus was/is the archangel- 1 Thess.4:16. Jesus came as a human, born in the natural way (flesh, not Spirit)- Jo.1:14, Phil.2:5-8. Jesus was resurrected 'in the Spirit'- 1 Cor.15:45, 1 Pe.3:18.
---David8318 on 9/6/11

An ant (man) says to a dog (angel), who looks like an ant, show us a man (God). The ant/dog says, ''If you've seen me, you've seen a man.'' This is what the JWs want you to believe. It just doesn't make sense.

But a man says to the man Jesus, show us God, and Jesus says ''If you've seen me, you've seen God.''

Question: If Jesus isn't God, how can he show God, for there is no one or no thing like God. God is unique and incomparable. Otherwise, the creature is exactly like the Creator. On the JW scheme, the creature Jesus is exactly like the Creator or Jesus was lying. Only if Jesus IS God can Jesus say truthfully ''If you've seen me, you've seen God.''
---Marc on 9/6/11

David, God is spirit, the reason you cannot see Christ Divine nature. You only read of His human nature, that came from the seed of David. You and others always argue from His human nature.
"That Holy Thing, born of the virgin, was according to Luke, "to be called the Son of God" The same way as Christ was God before He was called Immanuel, so was He the Son of God before, as being born of the Virgin. The Son of God could not be seen or known by the sons of men except as born of the Virgin: but His being so born did not constitute Him the Son of God.
If your born of the Spirit, and have the indwelling of the Spirit, you too cannot see Christ in you. So how can you believe your born again of the Spirit?
---Mark_V. on 9/6/11

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Paul, pure evasion!
---Warwick on 9/5/11

Or discussed to death one, this subject has been discussed five times in the last thirty days.

Archive it and you will find all my answers without me reposting them for the sixth time....

I still believe Jesus answered this question for you if you will look you will find it.

---paul on 9/6/11


The specific question was with the reconciliation of specific scripture. You did not address any of those.

//Where does the Bible specifically state Jesus is 'fully God' or even 'God'?//

Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet [Isaiah]:
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us).

this is not exclusive to the trinitarians. this is in the bible, even your version:

Matthew 1:23

New Living Translation (NLT)

23 Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel, which means God is with us.
---aka on 9/5/11

DAVID //Jesus as the 'Son of God' is subject to his Father- even after his resurrection.//
not one trinitarian disagrees that Christ has submitted to the father.
yet the difference between our and your vieuw is that TO US The son is voluntarely submitted to the father "he learned obedience unto death", the voluntary submittion of ChristGod is essential in the salvationplan of the Father. whilst the doctrines of arius imply a POSITIONAL subjection.

for indeed whatever is not GOD canot escape subjection to whatever IS GOD, this idea makes Christ's voluntary sacrifice void and nul, in the best, for non-trinitarians Christ was a martyr. Christ's sacrifice becomes diminuished to an effort of a lower form then God
---andy3996 on 9/5/11

David, I guess you did not take the time to read the scriptures I presented in my question.

There are many more passages of scripture I can present.
---Rob on 9/5/11

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Paul, pure evasion!
---Warwick on 9/5/11

That Jesus is fully God/fully man i.e. fully spirit/fully flesh has been shown here repeatedly. The Messiah said "a body you have prepared for me" Hebrews 10:5

David belongs to an antiChristian cult which endeavours to undermine Biblical Christianity. They teach Jesus is an angel, which became a man who was raised a spirit creature. This is contradicted by Scripture-Luke 24:37-39, John 20:24-28, Acts 2:31,32.

Hebrews ch. 1 demonstrates Jesus is God, who isn't, and never was an angel.

Chapter 2 demonstrates He is also man.

David attempts to avoid the reality that I and others many times have used words to the effect of-as to His spirit He is God, as to His flesh He is man.

Inconvenient truth.
---Warwick on 9/5/11

Good point Micha.

Philip asks Jesus-show us the Father. Jesus effectively says look at me and you will see the Father. Is Jesus saying He is the Father? Not at all. This comes from the purposeful misunderstanding of JW's who insist we have 3 Gods, when they know we believe in 1 God who is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That God is spirit, and not visible, not human, is the reason a body was prepared for the Messiah, so He can live with and relate to humans. As Philippians 2:6-11 explains the Messiah is in very nature God who took the nature of a servant, humbled Himself to die upon the cross for us!

In heaven we will see Jesus in His glorified human body. No 3 Gods sitting on a bench.
---Warwick on 9/5/11

Rob, another verse so important is 1st Timothy 3,16

And without controversy great is the mystery of Godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, seen of Angels, preached unto the nations belived on in the world received up into Glory. I too love 1st John 1:1
Hat which was from the beginning, which we have heard which we have seen with our eyes which we have looked upon and our hands have handles of THE WORD OF LIFE, just as John 1:1-18 declare, the EXPRESS image of God.

The WORD was God who was ade flesh, witnessed by the Apostles.
---kathr4453 on 9/5/11

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Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth

Seems that Jesus, the SON OF GOD / SON OF MAN is actually the creator
---Francis on 9/5/11

\\Where does the Bible specifically state Jesus is 'fully God' or even 'God'?\\
---David8318 on 9/5/11

Where does the bible specifically state half the nonsense you believe?
---James_L on 9/5/11

'Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God.' 1 John 4:2. It is 'antichrist' to teach contrary to this.

However some maintain the Bible specifically states Jesus is also 'God' or 'fully God', without providing scriptural support for their view. Where does the Bible specifically state Jesus is 'fully God' or even 'God'?

Jesus as a man on earth said, 'God is a Spirit'- John 4:24. If Jesus was 'God', then he would be 'a Spirit'. This teaching is antichrist according to 1 Jo.4:2. The trinitarian philosophy is God is 'fully man', or 'flesh'. This is contrary to what Jesus taught.

Jesus as the 'Son of God' is subject to his Father- even after his resurrection. 1 Cor.15:28.
---David8318 on 9/5/11

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Paul believes what he believes.
---micha9344 on 9/5/11

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Paul, I am not sure what you are endeavouring to say.
---Warwick on 9/5/11

I believe Christ to be who HE says He is, why do so many stumble at Jesus own words.

---paul on 9/5/11

Paul, I am not sure what you are endeavouring to say.

But I believe Scripture tells us Jesus is "the Son of Man" (e.g. Mark 14:62) as to His flesh. And the Son of God (e.g. Luke 22:70), as to His spirit. Therefore fully God, and fully man. Chapters 1 and 2 of Hebrews make this very clear.

Being the Son of Man He is man while being the Son of God He is God. Some would have us believe that being the Son of God does not make Him God.

As recorded in John 10:33 His mortal enemies wanted to stone Him to death because He claimed to be God.
---Warwick on 9/5/11

Paul, you have not answered James' question.

By Son of God, do you mean He is God?
---Warwick on 9/5/11

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