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Finish It Here September 2011

Finish it here-September

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 ---John on 9/11/11
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Unbelief is the sin the world is convicted of. John 16:9.

It does NOT say transgressing the law.
And regarding the law, sin was condemned in the flesh "that the righteous requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us" Rom8:4.

But if you bring yourself under law and judge righteousness by it, that is unbelief as you are seeking to establish your own righteousness thereby not submitting to the righteousness of God Rom 10:3

All unrighteousness is sin, 1John5:17. In other words if you do not BELIEVE on Jesus you are an unrighteous sinner.

As 1Pet4:18 shows, you are EITHER righteous OR sinner. You CANT be both.
---Haz27 on 9/20/11

James L, I believe you are following wrong steps. you said:
"Mark V, the word apostate means to abandon something you formerly embraced."
Embracing something does not make someone a believer or saved.
1. The Pharisees embraced the letter of the law of God, they were not saved because inside they had no genuine faith in Christ.
2. How about those disciples who walked with Him no more. They had no genuine faith.
3. Many embrace Jesus with their lips but not with their hearts.
Only those who preserver do, "But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul" Heb 10:38. Only those who overcome are saved.
---Mark_V. on 9/20/11

The problem with the sin "limits" doctrine is it's judging people by WORKS.
Yet "by the deeds of the law shall NO flesh be justified" Rom3:20
This includes you.
YOU are guilty of ALL 10 commandments as James2:10 says.

But you claim there is ANOTHER limit allowing some transgressions, but not too many.
Please explain in scripture WHAT this other limit is.

What you forget is "sin was condemned in the flesh" Rom8:3.

"The body is DEAD because of sin" Rom8:10

"I no longer live but Christ lives in me" Gal 2:20

We are new creations.
Christians are holy because Christ in us is holy.

Stop looking at the flesh. It's DEAD.
---Haz27 on 9/20/11

You truly are a judgmental work-o-art.
---paul on 9/19/11

Ooooo. Danke. You auto qualify too now.
As the fruit advertises, one expects it to be.

Did I really help?
How did that analyze me, we won't respond,self reflecting thingy go? Sure hard to follow ones own rules....course they don't realllllly apply when ones a (pastor). Shhh.
Ecclesiastes 12:10
The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.

Acts 10:36
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
---Trav on 9/20/11

\\It cannot refer to the apostates, because only genuine believers are sanctified.\\
---Mark_V. on 9/20/11

Mark V,
You think a genuine believer can never become apostate, but scripture disagrees with you.

the word apostate means to abandon something you formerly embraced.

Your view would be like a man divorcing a woman he never married

or a man quitting a job he never got hired to

or a singer quitting a band he was never part of

those examples doen't make sense any more than your view that someone can abandon the faith of Christ when He was never a believer in the first place.

Would you care to explain how someone can exit a house when they've been outside the whole time?
---James_L on 9/20/11

Trav, To redeem THEM that WERE UNDER LAW would certainly EXCLUDE YOU wouldn't it?
---kathr4453 on 9/20/11

Well it most certainly could.
If it makes no difference now does it?
GOD does as he likes with who he likes too.
Tell him to ask you if it is OK.
You obviously don't agree, making your own doctrine and attempt teaching it for Gospel. As authorized in the Testaments.

Think I'll just honor what ALL his prophets,Christ and the Apostle have stated. Trying to be the best "Sheep Dog" he ever had as a goal.
Bark, bark, ruff,ruff back to the pen you crazy woolies.
Eze 34:11
For thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
---Trav on 9/20/11

Haz, you wish to define sin only as 'unbelief' because you do not want to agree with John when he writes "Everyone who sins breaks the law, in fact, sin is lawlessness." This does not fit in with your Holiness beliefs so must be rejected.

Paul writes of lawlessness in Hebrews 10:26 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left."

Therefore the saved can sin and can be forgiven but there are obviously limits.
---Warwick on 9/20/11

Mark V,
Maybe you didn't fully read my comments on 1John 2:2

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins...also for those of the whole world."

\\Christ dying for the sins of everyone, that places it squarely in the context of the flesh.
---James_L on 9/16/11\\

Rom 5 and 1Cor 15 clearly say that EVERYONE will be raised to life, and they are both clearly speaking of a PHYSICAL resurrection, not universalism.

That places 1John 1:8-2:6 squarely in the context of the flesh, where sin is found, according to Romans 7:20
"It is no longer I doing it, but rather sin that dwells in me."

Do you reject this teaching of the apostle Paul?
---James_L on 9/19/11

as Heb 6:1 shows, "repentance from DEAD WORKS"
Heb 9:14
"how much more shall the blood of Christ...cleanse your conscience from DEAD WORKS".

You said "there is a limit" to how often we can do wrong (sin).

Correct. And that limit is unbelief in Jesus.
It's not how often you break commandments. James2:10 shows, to offend in ONE you are guilty of ALL.

What about Galatians 3
"O foolish Galatians!...Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?"

Here we have commandment keepers accused of being "foolish".
They sought to establish their own righteousness even though they begun in the Spirit.

---Haz27 on 9/20/11

Its my belief that this falling away (caused by sin) is when the Spirit stops convicting you because He knows you will not repent anyway.

So if youre backslidden and wondering if you have "fallen away" beyond the point of no forgiveness and can't come back, Id have to say the desire wouldnt be there to return to God if the Spirit wasnt leading you to repentance in the first place. He will forgive you if you desire to return to him. (Parable of The Prodigal Son)
---CraigA on 9/20/11

Craig, again you are wrong in your interpretation of Hebrew 10:29. You said:

"Those "sanctified" by the blood of the covenant can still do despite to Spirit of grace! Man CAN reject the call."

The One sanctified was not man but Christ in the context. In (9:14,15) we read that Christ death inaugurated or ratified the New Covenant. "Sanctified" This refers to Christ, in that He was set apart unto God (John 17:19). "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they (genuine believers) also may be sanctified by the Truth" It cannot refer to the apostates, because only genuine believers are sanctified.
---Mark_V. on 9/20/11

Warwick said: "Do you imagine sin was not involved in their falling away?"

You're correct. BUT, the "sin" was "unbelief", and going under works of law is unbelief.

"All unrighteousness is sin" 1John5:17.
So unless you believe on Jesus, being righteous in him only, you sin.

James1:14 "each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."
Don't be tempted into establishing your own (filthy rags) righteousness through the law.

We are EITHER righteous in Christ OR we are (self-righteous) SINNERS. You CANT be both. 1Pet4:18
---Haz27 on 9/20/11

Haz, you are correct Heb 6:4-6, 2 Peter 2:20,21, speaks of turning away from Christ after having had known Jesus as Lord and savior.

Do you imagine sin was not involved in their falling away? Paul writes of the impossibility of those who have fallen away being brought back to repentance. Repentance from what? Sin, which is unbelief and as John says "Everyone who sins breaks the law, in fact, sin is lawlessness."

It is obvious those saved can and do sin. And can be forgiven, but there is a limit. But many of us have sinned, not fallen away, are repentant and seek forgiveness.

However you cannot be forgiven as you insist you don't sin.
---Warwick on 9/19/11

Heb 6:4-6, 2 Peter 2:20,21, speaks of turning away from Christ after having had known Jesus as Lord and savior.
I suspect you think these verses refer to an excessive level of commandment breaking.

You still avoid answering scriptures such as 1Pet4:18 that contradict your claim Christians "sin". Why? Avoiding this only shows your doctrine to be flawed.

And as James2:10 shows YOU are GUILTY of ALL commandments, how is that different to the doctrine you hold to that a "lifestyle" of "sin" means a person is not Christian.
Please show in scripture what is this minimum lifestyle standard you refer to as it differs from James2:10 claim that to offend in ONE point your guilty of ALL.
---Haz27 on 9/19/11

You truly are a judgmental work-o-art.

---paul on 9/19/11

1 John 1:8-10 and 1 John 2:1 prove the saved can sin and be forgiven. These verses, written to the saved, warn against the arrogance of saying we cannot sin. And obviously say we can be forgiven. The Holiness movement taught the truly saved cannot sin. I thought this thinking had disappeared. Apparently not so. Followers were told-if you are truly saved you will not sin. But even the saved sin, as the above verses show-also Hebrews 6:4-6, 2 Peter 2:20,21.

When Holiness followers sinned (as all men do) they 'knew' they were not truly saved and fell away.

This is akin to those who teach all prayer will be answered if you just have enough faith. By their thinking those whose prayers are not answered lack faith. Many fall away.
---Warwick on 9/19/11

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What makes you think I dont judge my own deeds, rest assured I do.
---paul on 9/19/11

Your owerwhelming shepherds humility.

I rest assured High Priest, knowing I'm free of manipulative, self installed pastors.

May those your shepherds hook strangles get free.

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
---Trav on 9/19/11

2 Peter 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction

Christ died for even false prophets.

Hebrews 10:29

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Those "sanctified" by the blood of the covenant can still do despite to Spirit of grace!

Man CAN reject the call.
---CraigA on 9/19/11

Christ (while still hanging on the cross) cries out for forgiveness for those CRUCIFYING him!!! Yes the unbelievers!

If He didnt die for unbelievers... why would He even bother to ask for forgiveness for them? He would know that is impossible without his own blood being shed for them.

Theres so many holes in your delusional gospel. I can only imagine the anger the Lord holds back knowing you are teaching those he died for that he never loved them to begin with. You, sir, are a testament to Gods longsuffering.
---CraigA on 9/19/11

Mark V.

Correction to last post. The question at the end should read -

Do you believe Christ was raised spiritually?
---James_L on 9/18/11

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James, the reason I answered is because I opened my Bible. I cannot memorize everything. And what I see now you made a two step move. Now you are talking about the resurrection from the dead, and that is not what you were saying in your statements. You were talking about the propitiation of the whole world when you gave 1 John 2:3 and tried to connect it with Rom. 5 and 1 Cor 15. In doing so you were presenting a "Universal salvation" which we know does not exist in Scripture. For many are going to hell. There is a resurrection of the dead all right. And Jesus did rise with a glorified body, His Spirit which is of God never died. It had already returned to the Father before His death.
---Mark_V. on 9/19/11

Mark V,

1Cor 15 in context:

v 12
"Now if Christ is raised from the dead (PHYSICALLY), how can some say there is no (PHYSICAL) resurrection of the dead?"

v 13
If there is no (PHYSICAL) resurrection of the dead, the Christ has not been raised (PHYSICALLY)

v 16
FOr if the dead are not raised (PHYSICALLY), then Christ has not been raised (PHYSICALLY).

v 21
For since (PHYSICAL) death came through a human being, the (PHYSICAL) resurrection of the dead has also come through a human

v 22
for as "ALL" die (PHYSICALLY) in Adam, so "ALL" will be made alive (PHYSICALLY) in Christ.

Raised like Christ was. Do you believe Christ was raised only spiritually?
---James_L on 9/18/11


it's too bad you close your mind before you open your bible
---James_L on 9/17/11

I agree with Mark that this is a foolish argument. It is clear forgiveness is available to the already saved meaning they can sin.

I am content to leave it there. I feel confident some are defending peculiar denominational beliefs, as the JW's do.
---Warwick on 9/17/11

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I use the KJV which says "CANNOT SIN" 1John3:9. This does not contradict 1John1:8 as shown to you earlier posts.

1 Pet 4:18 even speaks of 2 SEPARATE groups. You are EITHER righteous (saved) OR sinner/ungodly. You CANT be both.
This scripture also, plainly contradicts your claim.

But the doctrine you hold to is judging by works of law as those who do not attain a minimum required standard of good lifestyle are NON-Christians.

But the law says if you offend in ONE point your GUILTY of ALL. Based on James2:10 even you would be GUILTY of ALL.

Better to be righteous in Christ and NOT a sinner.
---Haz27 on 9/17/11

Warwick, can you explain, with scriptures, what is the minimum standard of lifestyle God expects to prove we are Christians?

I have found God to be specific in His word. Example: BELIEVE on Jesus. We are justified by faith, NOT works of law, etc.

But the doctrine you talk of is ambiguous. If proof of being saved is determined by how often we break commandments over our lifetime its needs explaination what the minumum standards are.

I see the criminal on cross next to Jesus was criminal till the day he died, YET was saved.
But you say someone who lives for years as a Christian has a minimum lifestyle standard to meet.
What is that minimum standard explained in scriptures?

---Haz27 on 9/17/11

1 Cor. 15:20-23 does not say
" is abundantly clear that in Adam all die physically, and in Christ all will live physically."
The two "all's" are alike only in the sense that they both apply to descendants. The second "all" applies only to believers (Gal. 3:26,29: 4:7: Eph. 3:6: Acts 20:32: Titus 3:7) and does not imply universalism (the salvation of everyone without faith). Countless other passages clearly teach the eternal punishment of the unbelieving ( Matt.5:29: 10:28: 25:41,46: Luke 16:23: 2 Thess. 1:9: Rev. 20:15).
Romans 15:15-21 does not say: "There are two places where Paul wrote of Jesus dying for the sins of everyone -" It says for many.
---Mark_V. on 9/18/11

1 John 2:2 is not saying that "He Himself is propitiation for every single individual in the world," it is referring to mankind in general. Christ actually paid the penalty only for those who would repent and believe. A number of Scriptures indicate that Christ died for the world John (1:29: 3:16: 6:51: 1 Tim. 2:6: Heb. 2:9). Most of the world will be eternally condemned to hell to pay for their own sins, so they could not have been paid by Christ. The passages which speak of Christ dying for the whole world must be understood to refer to mankind in general as in (Titus 2:3,4). World indicates the sphere, the beings towards whom God has mitgated His wrath on sinners temporaryily, by letting them live and enjoy life.
---Mark_V. on 9/18/11

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Warwick part,

1John 2:1 shouldn't be isolated.

Verses 2-3 add clarification when other scriptures are taken into account.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins...also for those of the whole world.

There are two places where Paul wrote of Jesus dying for the sins of everyone - Romans 5:15-21 and 1Cor 15:16-26. 1Cor 15 is abundantly clear that in Adam all die physically, and in Christ all will live physically. Compare the two passages above, and it should be clear that Rom 5 is also speaking of physical death and life.

Christ dying for the sins of everyone, that places it squarely in the context of the flesh. This harkens to my comments on 1John 1:8, only 3 verses earlier.
---James_L on 9/16/11

Warwick part 2,

1John 2:6
the one who says he abides in Him ought to "walk in the same manner" as He walked.

Paul also wrote "walk by the spirit", and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the spirit...these are in opposition to one another... (Gal 5:16-17

Rom 7:22-23
For I joyfully concur with the Law of God in the inner man. but I see a different law in the members of my body...

2:1 sounds like it supports your view, but should be read in context - flesh.

scripture clearly differentiates between spirit and flesh. Sinless spirit, sinful flesh.

You didn't answer my ? about regeneration
---James_L on 9/17/11

Romans 3:20 for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:7 I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
1 John 3:4 for sin is the transgression of the law.

If you think that a a believer that you are not INTENTIONALLY SINNING look at the LAW AGAIN!

1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet

Which one are you INTENTIONALLY wilffuly not obeying?
---Francis on 9/17/11

Haz, I use the KJV which has the 1 John 3:8,9 rendering some prefer.

KJV 1 John 1:8,9 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

KJV Vs.2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

KJV verse 3:9 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not..."

The first 2 verses say we do sin, and it is forgiveable but you claim the third quote says we "cannot sin."

In your version John plainly contradicts himself!
---Warwick on 9/17/11

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I, myself believe this is a very rediculous argument, sinlessness. God said, "All come short of the glory of God"
If anyone doesn't, then God is wrong, I'm wrong, and all the sinless people are right.
I myself will believe what God said. Not what man claim. "If" John in 1 John believed everyone was sinless after salvation, he should have said, "all believers are without sin" and closed his book. No need to know about God, Christ as our Mediator for sin, how to treat our wives, kids, neighbor, the New Testament, other then the part of salvation would be useless. We would have no need for the Holy Spirit to sanctify us, it's a done deal. Sin is not sin anymore to believers.
---Mark_V. on 9/17/11

Here's another way of looking at it. Is remaining a milk fed spoon fed baby a sin? Can milk fed spoon fed christians continue to sin as their was a lot of sin in Corinth Paul had to address. He first called them SAINTS yes, not sinners, but addressed SIN in the Church, and with them.

That tells me absolutely Christians sin. What is so wonderful about being a Christian is that AS WE GROW, many times falling, failing, disobeying, God disciplines us to bring about HIS HOLINESS in us..

So if anyone here claims they've never been disciplined, they are admitting they are illigetimate sons and not His Sons.
---kathr4453 on 9/17/11

James if you believe that because you have been saved you cannot sin then you are easy pickings for satan who prowls like a lion. This view is akin to pride.

Maybe you could be unique here and answer a question?

Condisering 1 John 2:1 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

If we cannot sin, what is John on about?
---Warwick on 9/16/11

It's good to hear you believe we are saved by grace.

But, as James_L pointed out, you misunderstand 1John3, especially in how those Bible translations put it.

You gave examples of intentional sin proving oneself to not be Christian. What about that example I gave of divorcees remarrying? A marriage, defined as adultery in Mark 10:11 would be classed as lifestyle sin by you.

And 1Pet4:18 shows 2 distinct groups. You are EITHER righteous OR a sinner. How do you explain this?

James 2:10 says if under law and offend in ONE point you are guilty of ALL. Based on this how is an alleged "lifestyle of sin" different from "occasional sin" when regardless of which it is you are GUILTY of ALL?
---Haz27 on 9/16/11

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My original question concerned Christians (saved only by grace) who as a matter of course, as a habit, intentionally, day after day, live sinful lives. Sin defined as rebellion against God's will or commands.

We all know the law, for us, is no longer written on stone but upon our hearts and minds. Let us not, for the moment, fret over what this new law contains but consider: Can we live lives of rebellion against Gods will or law? For example can we continue stealing, lying, fornicating, or dissrespecting our parents, as a lifestyle?

I know some have found this question hard to understand so let me say, I am not talking of occasional regretted sin, but a life-style of continued intentional sin.
---Warwick on 9/16/11

Warwick part 2 (which didn't get posted last night)

1John 3:9
You err by using NIV, NET, or whatever "interpretive" translation you quoted from.

There is no element of "habitual sin" in this verse, that is a reflection of a previously held doctrine (injecting what they think it means, instead of what the text actually says).

it says
"the one born from God" (o gegennemenos ek tou Theou)

"does not sin" (hamartian ou poiei)

"he is not able to sin" (ou dunatai hamartanein)

Believers are not able to sin after regeneration. That's what a new creation is. Do you believe God creates sinful people? or maybe regeneration is a hoax?
---James_L on 9/16/11

I said nit-picking over the Law being the only sin. Or it seems as though that is what you are saying. Whatever is not of faith is sin. But there are a lot of things that are of faith that have nothing to do with the law. Example, Abraham obeyed God and placed Isaac on an alter. WHERE is this one of the 10 commandments, or not one of the 10 commandments?
So I would say you have a very liberal lefty view of sin, by calling it a mistake and not what it is. ( sorry, I just simply could not help myself) SIN.
Turning the other cheek is another. No Law said to or not to turn the other cheek.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/11

James I do not believe I have changed the meaning of 1 John 1:8. I take it to mean we deceive ourselves if we say we are incapable of sin or do not sin.

1 John 2:1 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

He writes this to those already saved-verses 12-14.

In this light 1 John 3:9 says true Christians, those born of God, will not continue in a life of sin. We do sin however we do not plan to give our lives over to continual, deliberate sin. Sin is there within us but we do not habitually surrender ourselves to it.
---Warwick on 9/16/11

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Jim I do not believe John was talking only to Gnostics. He was saying "we" can sin, we is inclusive.

That we can sin is confirmed by 1 John 2:1 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

If it were not possible for the saved to sin why would John write this?
---Warwick on 9/16/11

You are correct even those who never were under the law have been crucified with Christ.

Scriptures refer to Israel as an example of trying to attain self-righteousness by works of the law. Hence the references to law.

And I am not saying that sin is only transgression of the law. This is one of God's definitions of sin that fits closest to what is traditionally believed about sin.

I don't believe this discussion is "nit picking over sin". We are saved by grace but some misunderstand scripture on sin, bringing in works of the law. I would think most here including you believe this.
---Haz27 on 9/16/11

God's definitions of sin are the ONLY ones to use. Transgression of the law 1John3:4 does NOT apply to Christians as we are NOT UNDER it. So how can Christians be charged with transgression? Haz27

Haz27, God's definition of sin is everything and anything that belongs to Adam 1. When I am Crucified with Christ my history in Adam 1 ended at the Cross. Not only did adam 1 die to sin, he died to this world and the things of this world.

This is what Paul taught in Romans 6-8 and Galatians , please not Chapter 6 in Galatians especially. So this nit picking over sin only being associated with the law is nonsense. Even those without the Law, who were never under Law have died, being crucified to the world and the world to them.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/11

His Divine Spirit came from God and went back to God.
---Mark_V. on 9/15/11

Markv is saying as you that Jesus Christ either was never God in the Flesh, or ceased to be God in the Flesh, and then resumed at some point to be God in the Flesh, or else God has two sons, one only flesh, and a begotten son who cannot die.

He says Jesus is the man, Christ is the Eternal begotten son.

My Bible says Christ His Only Begotten died and rose again. And that we were reconciled through the death of His son.......but which one?

///His Begotten Son never died. The man called Jesus in His humanity died for your sins.
---Mark_V. on 9/8/11

What Markv is saying is Jesus was Never God, or God has TWO Sons.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/11

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\\John says we are liars if we say we don't sin. But you say John also says we cannot sin.\\
---Warwick on 9/15/11

Warwick part 1,

First, I agree with Haz, mostly. I disagree that sin is strictly defined as unbelief. BUT,

you changed the wording of 1John 1:8 in your question. It does not say that we sin, it says that we HAVE sin. Big difference. Romans 7:17 Paul said he no longer sins, but still HAS sin in his flesh. At reneneration, we are washed, cleansed, regenerated. New creation altogether, not just "viewed" as righteous.

Do you think God takes out a sinful heart and puts in another sinful heart?
---James_L on 9/15/11

His Divine Spirit came from God and went back to God.
---Mark_V. on 9/15/11


I dont think anyone would deny that Jesus Spirit was from God.

He gave up the Ghost by the power of God much like Ananias did.Acts 5:5

And your correct, death by asphyxiation was a very slow and cruel death.

But the reason Christs was so quick was so the prophesy could be fulfilled which said not a bone in his body was broken.John 19:36 which references Ps 34:20

Had He not given up the Ghost the soldiers would have expedited His death by breaking His legs.John 19:32-33

---paul on 9/15/11


If you look at Heb 1:2 you'll see Jesus called the Son which He is, in Heb 1:3 you see Him at the right hand which is a place of secondary command, and in Heb 2:9 you find a creation a little lower then the angels, does that sound like God Almighty to you?

Jesus reiterates the Father being greater in Mark 10:18 as well, this is indeed in position in the physical and Spiritual, if nit why did the Spirit descend upon him at His baptism?

Retranslate it all you wish but you cant change what the scriptures plainly say.

---paul on 9/16/11

//Why do you have such an issue with Jesus claim that He is God's Son and not God Himself.//

Everybody claims to know God. Everybody claims to be led by the HS.

Some find Scripture that says one thing, others find scripture that indicate another thing.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The divine was manifest in the flesh. it does not say that God is a mystery, it says that Godliness is.
---aka on 9/16/11

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59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Houston we have a problem.

Was Stephen equal to Jesus a meer man who too gave up his spirit to God before falling asleep. AKA DEAD.

Scripture teaches scripture. What exactly is God showing us here, that Jesus wasn't God or Stephen was God too?

---kathr4453 on 9/16/11

Warwick: 1John3:9 "those born of God CANNOT sin". Why? Because we are "born of God", "his seed (Jesus) remaineth in him".

Christians are HOLY because Christ in us (the firstfruit Rom10:16) is HOLY.

God's definitions of sin are the ONLY ones to use. Transgression of the law 1John3:4 does NOT apply to Christians as we are NOT UNDER it. So how can Christians be charged with transgression?

"If Christ be in you the BODY IS DEAD because of sin" Rom8:10
"He that is DEAD is FREED from sin" Rom6:7

1Pet4:18 "if the righteous are scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear"
2 groups here. Righteous OR sinner. How do you explain this?

---Haz27 on 9/16/11

Why do you have such an issue with Jesus claim that He is God's Son and not God Himself.//

Paul, your reference to Jesus being God's Son is you denying His Deity, that God was in Christ reconciliating the world to Himself. So if God was in CHRIST reconciliating the world unto Himself through His death and resurrection and atoning blood, are YOU saying God was not in CHRIST? Or as Markv believes, God left Christ or Markv belives as the SDA's that death means a total cessation of existence.

I'm saying there was no BEGOTTEN SON before His Incarnation. The BEGOTTEN SON, Jesus Christ died on a Cross and Rose again.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/11

Did God die when Jesus died on the cross? The answer depends on how we understand the meaning of the word "die." To die does not mean an end of existence. Death is separation. Death is when the soul-spirit separates from the physical body. So, in that sense, yes, God died, because Jesus was God in human form, and Jesus' soul-spirit separated from His body. However, if by die we mean a cessation of existence, then no, God did not die. For God to die would mean that He ceased to exist, and neither the Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit will ever cease to exist.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/11

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You believe Christians are UNDER the law, in spite of:
Rom 8:2 "SET FREE".
Rom 10:4 "Christ is END of law"


How can 1John1 be speaking to Christians when it's context is evangelical?
And verse 6 even speaks of those in darkness (without Christ) being Liars.

And who is a Liar?
1John 2:22 "he that denies Jesus is the Christ"

You say 1John3:9 refers to deliberate sin.
How do you determine what is "deliberate"?
Example. Mark 10:11 To divorce and marry another is adultery. But churches marry divorcees often. Your doctrine says these married divorcees are in "deliberate" sin, so NOT Christians.

---Haz27 on 9/16/11

Warwick//1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Warwick..John was talking about the gnostics in those days who claimed that they had no sin.
---JIM on 9/16/11

A better translation -

1 John 3:9ESV No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

NIV No-one who is born of God will continue to sin, because Gods seed remains in him, he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
---leej on 9/16/11


1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him, he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

1 1:8 says we do sin while 1 3:9 says we cannot continue in sin. You say this means we simply cannot sin. The fact that John uses the same word for sin throughout means its definition is not the point. Sin no matter how you define it is rebellion against God.

A question: John says we are liars if we say we don't sin. But you say John also says we cannot sin.

Both cannot be right. In which verse has John got it right?
---Warwick on 9/15/11

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Before Christ died, He gave of His Spirit back to God.

"And when Jesus Christ out with a loud voice, He said, "Into your hands I commit My Spirit" Having said this, He breathed His last"

This quote is from ( Ps. 31:5) and the manner of His death accords with John ( 10:18) Normally victims of crucifixions died much slower deaths, Jesus, being in control, simply yielded up His Spirit, committing it to God, Thus He offered His human body without spot to God. ( Heb. 9:14).
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God"
His Divine Spirit came from God and went back to God.
---Mark_V. on 9/15/11

you claim 1John 3:9 refers to "intentional persistent sin"

BUT, we MUST ONLY use God's definitions of sin to understand.

Sin is:
1John3:4 transgression of the law.

So 1John3:9 "we CANNOT sin" is supported by Rom8:2 We're SET FREE from the law.
And where there is NO law there is NO transgression (sin) Rom4:15
Whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT Rom3:19.
We are justified by faith WITHOUT the deeds of the law Rom3:28

When we believe on Jesus our old man is crucified (Rom6:6) and we CEASE from sin 1Pet4:1.
But if we bring ourselves under law and judge our physical actions by it you'll be guilty of ALL and also in sin of unbelief.
---Haz27 on 9/15/11


I do understand the difference between right and just as most do not.

And I agree Christ took our sins and shame and overcame death.

This is a feat that God would not have to do for He is not able to for His holiness will not allow it and He can not die.

Why do you have such an issue with Jesus claim that He is God's Son and not God Himself.

I think you are well intentioned but what you have been taught is over ridding your ability to discern the scriptures.

I have never been taught by men but have self studied with the assistance of the HS.

So again what is the feat of overcoming sin for God?

---paul on 9/15/11

Paul, Hebrews 1:3-the Son is "the exact representation of God's being" Verse 8 God calls Him "God", and in v.10 Creator. Nothing here even hints at a lesser being, only the opposite.

John 14:28 Jesus says "the Father is greater (Greek meizon) than I", which refers to the Fathers superior position in relation to His Son who "is in very nature God" now "made in human likeness" willingly humbled to be a servant-see Philippians 2:5-9.

If the Son had meant to say the Father was better in substance than He the Greek 'kreitton' would be used as it is in Hebrews 1:4 where it shows the Son is not only superior in position to the angels but 'better' (kreitton) in substance.
---Warwick on 9/15/11

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Paul, also remember, we deserve death. Not only is God a loving God, He is a Just God. The wages of sin is death/punishment/wrath. It's just the way it is. He came to take away our sin and punishement. He took the punishment for us, in our place. All our sin was placed on Him. He paid the penalty DEATH and separation. He could not do that as a spirit being. It was necessary that He be made like us. He was the propitiation for OUR SIN.

Do you know you can actually go to jail and pay the punishment for someone elses crime. Who does that? Who would lay down their life for another?
---kathr4453 on 9/15/11

Paul, here is WHY God came in the Flesh to overcome DEATH. He explains this in Hebrews 2. You can't separate sin from death. And just another Adam made out of the dust, not being begotten, but newly created would not have answered the issue. CHRIST Died on the Cross, and sin is broken when WE Identify with Christ..I am Crucified with Christ. Another Adam made out of the dust would have no power even resurrected to be our life. His Risen Life lives in us. He is the Christ, the Messiah who ddied and rose again.

MarkV simply cannot explain it, because He has stated only Jesus died in the flesh. That Jesus was teh man, and Christ was eternal and could not die. The Bible clearly states CHRIST CRUCIFIED and Risen is who we place our faith in.
---kathr4453 on 9/15/11


You are a very learned individual in the Word and that is very admirable.

And I don't disagree with you for the sake of disagreement.

But as I told Mark, I cant believe that God came here and wore flesh in his full power and overcame sin.

Jesus said the Father is greater, and I understand the Spirit of Grace and Truth which does not indicate that Jesus is God in His fulness of strength and power.

I fell as Jesus must have in Matt 19:17 when He to was pleading the case that the Father is different and greater.John 14:28

God Bless You,
---paul on 9/15/11

Elena, "she just hugs me & the tears roll!Wow! That's a life being changed becuzJesus step in rite on time! Truly awesome to see God work so in someones life! He IS always on time! I am happy to pray for you and the difficulties you are having. I understand well those situations, and because Ive been in similar ones, I am able to testify how God provides, in some incredible ways sometimes. It helped me learn to trust Him when the paychecks were squandered, and what was set aside would be stolen for drugs, and you still need to feed little ones. I know it can be trying, but I also know He will see you through. He is faithful. Many blessings
---chria9396 on 9/15/11

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Kathr4453, your answer is right on target. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He and His Father are One. I don't comprehend all that but I surely believe it. Our comforter is the Holy Spirit.
God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
---shira3877 on 9/15/11

thankyou Chria,and all who pray'n for Mary! she just hugs me & the tears roll!Wow! That's a life being changed becuzJesus step in rite on time! Please pray for me! I have not received my check in my acct. And the bank keeps charging me utilities are going be cut off!The landlord my apt. He's not say muchI been live here nearly 12 yrs. I never been behind on my rent. Please pray my utilities get paid! Went to an agency and they turn me down.I told'm just a one time help... Ok.thanks! Pray for me!
---ELENA on 9/15/11

Paul, sorry you took offense and failed to see the point. Donna is correct, TRUTH isn't learned, it's revealed.

Jesus said MY WORDS are Spirit and truth. If you don't believe me, believe MY WORD.

FAITH cannot be intellectually reasoned. Just ask Moses. Did he have to know exactly how God would part teh sea, or did he just BELIEVE and Obey?

The Spirit of GRACE was In Christ, and that Spirit of GRACE is what the pharisees rejected, the unpardonable sin.
---kathr4453 on 9/15/11

Paul again, Jesus said MY WORD is SPIRIT and LIFE.

Just read all scripture Jesus says about His WORDS.

Sanctify them through thy Truth, Thy WORD is Truth. The WORD became flesh filled with GRACE and TRUTH.

Only that can be revealed by the Holy Spirit.

You didn't come here to learn and grow Paul, but to obstruct and bring doubt. There are many here like you on line.

The Body of Christ nourishes one another and God uses them/us to help each other GROW, if our pride and man made doctrines don't hinder and get in the way. He wants to PURGE out of you those man made doctrines.
---kathr4453 on 9/15/11

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Jesus was not our example for obeying, he was our example in suffering///

Jesus learned obedience from the things He suffered. So you can't separate obedience from suffering. He also was our teacher in learning obedience. Keeping this mind in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who made Himself of no reputation, but became obedient unto death, even death of a cross.

Jesus OVERCAME, and those who follow His example, through His life and power in us, will be overcomers.
---kathr4453 on 9/15/11

Elena, I am happy to hear the good news about Mary. So many do not believe anyone cares, and what a sad condition to be in. Praise God, some here truly do care, and most importantly, God cares. Yesm continue in prayer!
---Chria9396 on 9/14/11

\\what would be the challenge for GOD to come here and overcome the very power He gave?

Where is our example in that?\\
---paul on 9/14/11

Jesus was not our example for obeying, he was our example in suffering

1Peter 2:21
For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps

What great feat for God to defeat sin? Think about giving money for people to have a well in other countries.

Americans giving a measley 250 bucks? We're rich, big deal, right?

Ask someone in Africa how great that is. The greateness of the feat is not determined by the greatness of the giver, but the lowliness of the receiver.
---James_L on 9/14/11

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/11

You know Kathr I have made a huge effort to refrain from this type of demoralization of the Saints.

I ask you what does it minister to other then ones own ego?

But to your point, I do not disagree that Christ, after His baptism, was indued with power from on high.

Thus manifesting God in the flesh, the flesh of Christ.

Again, If all power comes from God, what would be the challenge for GOD to come here and overcome the very power He gave?

Where is our example in that?

---paul on 9/14/11

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1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

But then again the BIBLE says GOD was manifest in the flesh. The word was with God and the Word was God. There is the mind of God, the Word of God and the Power of God.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this. However it does take FAITH to believe it, whether we understand it or not.

If that verse in scripture is a lie, then it's all a lie.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/11

You can kind of tell which people here are being taught by the Holy Spirit and which learned theology by studying the bible on their own.
---Donna on 09-14-2011----


What was reveled to Simeon, was that Jesus was the Son of God, not God.

What you are indicating here is that if anyone sees it different then you then they are not taught of the Spirit because it doesn't agree with your infallible version.

Let me ask you if all powers are ordained of God Col2:10 even satans Acts 26:18.

Then where is the triumph for God to come to earth and overcome the very power he gave?

Jesus is the SON of God, not God and no Spirit of God is going to teach you what is contrary to the Word.

---paul on 9/14/11

Wow! So,good be here.. My family on ChristiaNet.. Mary told me thank all of you prayed with me (she the prostitute) had gotten beat up out hereand she said please keep her 'n prayer!She so happy! She didn't think nobody cared 'bout her! I said yes! Always care I just know how things are out here..Anyway,she found an apt. Getting off the streets! Thank you Lord Jesus! Really a miracle! Also,Donna I am praying for your friend,she be ok..chemo powerfull & God keep her strong! I pray you get together soonthe Lord bless you both! Love always!Pray God bless me get computer or a large screen android fon sure! :) want to be pen pals with all on here!Keep the faith!
---ELENA on 9/14/11

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