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Confessing Christians To Heaven

Can a person go to Heaven no matter how they act, post-profession of Christ?

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 ---paul on 10/5/11
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How hypocritical of you who rarely answer questions to whine about me not answering to your satisfaction.

You have asked "What I keep asking you is what is that minimum standard of commandment keeping you imply that proves one is saved?"

I answered-I do not know of any minimum standard. Your question is a red-herring.

I have clearly made a difference between those who slip occasionally and repent, those of whom 1 John 2:1 speaks. And those given over to lives of planned, persistent, rebellion against the law God has put on their hearts and in their mind. Refer to 2 Peter 2:20-22.

I note with a smile that you try to write this off as "commandment keeping."
---Warwick on 10/11/11


Mark

You are being very condescending, which is typically not like you.

If one believes in Christ he will be saved, no probably to it.

Unless he backslides....

Explain this away, A servant is forgiven a debt by his master, and does not offer the same forgiveness to a fellow servant.

The master finds out and REVOKES his previous mercies because of the acts/works of the servant.

Their are stipulation attached...

Paul
---Paul on 10/11/11


Haz I did not sidestep your question regarding divorce but answered it truthfully "I have been married only once, and that to the same wonderful woman, for almost 45 years. And I believe divorce is wrong other than for Biblically permitted reasons. If anyone asks I tell them so." You demand more?

I have attended the same church for years and do not know of one person there who is "intentionally, willingly, persistently living a life-style of lawlessness."

I am sure, being falible humans all sin on occasions but repent, a different situation. Remember 1 John 2:1 which says if we sin we have one who talks to the Father in our defence.
---Warwick on 10/11/11


When someone truly believes, he or she acquires a new nature upon being born spiritually in Christ that abhors sin.

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

So it is impossible to live a lifestyle of sinfulness and be a Christian.

The song is true. Trust & obey for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus than to trust & obey.
---lee1538 on 10/11/11


Warwick:
You asked if Christians should live a lifestyle of persistent commandment breaking.

Answer: Christians should not use their LIBERTY as a cloak for vice (1Pet2:16).
And any doing wrong will not profit by it.
But look at your lifestyle and those in church around you. As James 2:10 shows even YOU are guilty of ALL.
I also asked about the remarried Christian divorcees (adulterers, Mark 10:11) but I note you sidestepped it.

Please don't avoid this question.
You CLEARLY claim that a persistent lifestyle of lawlessness is not possible for Christians(yet you are guilty of all).
What I keep asking you is what is that minimum standard of commandment keeping you imply that proves one is saved?
---Haz27 on 10/11/11




"Nana:
And what are these commandments?
Haz27 on 10/11/11

1 John 3:22 "And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight."
1 John 3:24 "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."

A new commandment Jesus gave, John 15:12.
But the word speaks of commandments and the living word which come from God:

John 14:24 "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

Haz, worry about what you are told to do rather...
---Nana on 10/11/11


Haz, as usual you missrepresent what has been written.

What I have written, and read is that it is wrong, and hypocritical, for a person to claim to be saved, while at the same time intentionally, willingly, persistently living a life-style of lawlessness.

Therefore the saved (by grace) will not live a life of planned, persistent, rebellion against the law God has put on their hearts and in their mind.

I know it is pointless asking you a question but I will ask another anyway. Your refusal to answer is an answer in itself!

Do you believe a Christian should live a lifestyle which is given over to persistent, intended rebellion against the law which is written on our hearts and in our minds?
---Warwick on 10/11/11


James what I am saying is, a Christian is one who has been saved by faith in the finished work of Jesus upon the cross. There is no work anyone can do by which they can be saved. I trust I have made myself clear.

However when saved from hell surely gratefullness commands our lives will show we are saved! From long experience I know we will fail. However I am convinced, because Scripture tells me, that we cannot claim to be saved and then return to our previous lives of wilful lawlessness.

May I say it again: we cannot be saved by obedience to law, but only through faith in the finished work of Jesus. But surely you do not believe Christians can live contrary to the law God has put upon our hearts and in our minds?
---Warwick on 10/11/11


James_L said:
"I have asked many "fruit" inspectors: "if a man has faith, yet no works, will he enter heaven?"
The answer is always "well, works are proof..."
But a straight answer? never. It's always hidden in ambiguity.
That's because they know the automatic implication, and don't want to face it"

I agree. I have been trying to get an answer out of Warwick over several blogs now and he maintains the same ambiguous replies whilst denying all attempts to clearly understand/expose his doctrine.
It's like you said. They know the automatic implication of their doctrine but don't want to face it. Hence all the ambiguity and false allegations.
---Haz27 on 10/11/11


Nana:
And what are these commandments?
1John3:23
"That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another"

As for the legalists here who insist that keeping the 10 commandments is proof of salvation, a reading of James 2:10 shows that even they are guilty of ALL the commandments.

Thank God that a Christian's life is hid with Christ in God otherwise no one would ever enter the kingdom of God.

For the legalists worried about the wrong Christians do
consider King David who did not profit from his adultery/murder. A very different response by God compared to the legalists condemnation.
---Haz27 on 10/11/11




Paul, is that the anology you are going to give your members who ask you what happens to one born of the Spirit?
You are not been saved from drowning in water. You are been made alive to Christ. Born of the Spirit. United into One Body in Christ. And made to seat together with Christ in the heavenly places. Now tell me, what happens to all this if he sins? There is no water to fall back into.
So what do you tell your members? Hey guys, If you believe in Jesus Christ by faith, you will probably be saved at some other time, but remember, you have to keep yourself without sin, because if you fail, God will sent you to hell. So keep up the good works and maybe you will be saved. Depending on how great your works are.
---Mark_V. on 10/11/11


We are justified by faith same as Abraham was, and our works are the evidence/manifestation of our faith. This is how Pauls and James writings complement each other as they expounded the teachings of the Master. I have asked many times and never had an answer, is this a work centered salvation, or a Christ/Gospel centered salvation. What is your definition of the Gospel Paul? Your lines usually sound like the Old covenant, whats the difference to you between that and the Covenant at the supper in the upper-room.
In His grip
---Poppa_Bear on 10/11/11


Mark, I have explained my position on numerous occasions, illustrating it from Scripture. Somehow you still do not understand.

Paul said it well "Christ paid the price but we must walk upright before Him to maintain our relationship."

We were saved only by Jesus' finished work upon the cross. Nothing we did saved us. Even our faith to ask for forgiveness was a gift.

Once saved by faith how should we endeavour to live? Do we return to our previous lawless life-style? Or do we endeavour, and ask for God's help, to live as He would have us do?

Can we claim we are saved and live contrary to the law He has placed upon our hearts and in our minds?
---Warwick on 10/11/11


Mark

I don't know how to get through to you my friend.

If I pull someone from the waters they are drawing in, I just saved them.

If they fall again into the water they are drawing again my friend.

Paul
---Paul on 10/11/11


John 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

Where does one who does not keep God's commandments abide?
What happens to those who do not abide in Christ?

Answer:
John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
---Nana on 10/11/11


Paul, you assume a lot. So what you are still saying is that you really never are saved. Because if you are "saved" it is a done deal, and you say no. It is not a done deal. If salvation is not by any of our works, why is it not a done deal? And why did you not answer me what happens to believers if he does sin. Does he stop been in the heavenly places in Christ? Does he go back to been dead in trespasses and sin? How can you compromise the Word of God? And if Jesus Christ sustains you till the end guiltless in the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ" you again say no, it's not true, and if Jesus says, He will never leave you, you say no, its not true, because if you leave Him He will leave you. Such nonesense.
---Mark_V. on 10/11/11


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Mark

What I am saying is that Christ has paid the price for us to be born again.

And we, who are in Christ are born again of the Spirit.

But what are we saved from, SIN?
I don't think so, for to will is present.

Christ paid the price but we must walk upright before Him to maintain our relationship.

As I have said before, for one to backslide he must turn from God and deny Christ salvation purposefully.

Not make a mistake and sin.

But to think you will make it in no matter what because Christ paid the price is an insult to Christ sacrifice and a mockery to His salvation.

Paul
---Paul on 10/10/11


Haz,

I think the difference between what you wrote and how Warwick interpreted it is somewhat irrelevant.

Whether "root" or "fruit", both are essentially saying the same thing, that faith in Christ is not enough to have eternal life.

I have asked many "fruit" inspectors: "if a man has faith, yet no works, will he enter heaven?"

The answer is always "well, works are proof..."

But a straight answer? never. It's always hidden in ambiguity.

That's because they know the automatic implication, and don't want to face it
---James_L on 10/10/11


Haz, careless of me!

You wrote "I said you believe there's a minimum standard of commandment keeping as PROOF of salvation."

I have never said this and don't believe it. What I have written is "What has been said is that one who claims to be saved will not continue in a life-style given over to persistent adultery, theft, murder, blasphemy, dishonouring parents etc. Do you suggest I can rob banks as a lifestyle and still claim to be a Christian? "

Do you? Shock yourself and answer a question!

I have been married only once, and that to the same wonderful woman, for almost 45 years. And I believe divorce is wrong other than for Biblically permitted reasons. If anyone asks I tell them so.
---Warwick on 10/11/11


Warwick 2: You said:

"Both Francis and I have been perfectly plain in saying that we can only be saved by God's grace, not works. What part of that do you not comprehend?"

If you believe a person is saved by grace through faith, why do you continue with your legalistic points of the law? What do you gain? You want to make everyone do what you do, follow the law, and if they don't they are breaking the law. As if none of you broke the law youselves. No one here insist you do Sunday or Monday, but you insist we do Saturday. It is this one legalistic point that separates you for other Christians. For you are a spokeman for the Law, not for faith in Jesus Christ works on the Cross.
---Mark_V. on 10/11/11


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Correction Warwick, I did not suggest you believe "there is a minimum of law keeping for one to be saved".
INSTEAD I said you believe there's a minimum standard of commandment keeping as PROOF of salvation.

I suggest reading my posts more thoroughly before making wild allegations.

---Haz27 on 10/10/11


Warwick //What has been said is that one who claims to be saved will not continue in a life-style given over to persistent adultery, theft, murder, blasphemy, dishonouring parents etc.

I believe that this point is totally from what we read in scripture.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness, sin is lawlessness.

1John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Howbeit we do not believe the Adventist position that one must reach meritorious perfection to have eternal life by obedience to commandments.
---lee1538 on 10/10/11


Warwick said:
The "saved will not continue in a life-style given over to persistent adultery..."

This CLEARLY indicates you believe there's some minimum standard of commandment keeping proving salvation.

You used "persistent adultery" as example.
Ok, what about the many re-married divorcees in churches? They're in "persistent adultery" (Mark 10:11). Can you PLEASE answer this.

The adultery you should be concerned about is the spiritual kind. Like the foolish Galatians, having begun in the Spirit but seeking to be made perfect by the flesh.
"For if I rebuild again the things which I destroyed (self-righteous works), I make myself a transgressor" Gal 2:18


---Haz27 on 10/10/11


Haz, I say it again you are an evasive, deceitful person. I am not frustrated or annoyed, just making a well founded obsevation.

I have never said there is a minimum of law keeping for one to be saved. I have told you this before but you continue to say it.

What has been said is that one who claims to be saved will not continue in a life-style given over to persistent adultery, theft, murder, blasphemy, dishonouring parents etc. Do you suggest I can rob banks as a lifestyle and still claim to be a Christian?

Both Francis and I have been perfectly plain in saying that we can only be saved by God's grace, not works. What part of that do you not comprehend?
---Warwick on 10/10/11


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Warwick:
Please try to be civil. I noticed your attacks on others here on CN too. It is easy to get frustrated in debates and most of us would admit we have posted inappropriate comments at times. But this is unhelpfull.

My questions to you remain. What is this minimum level of commandment keeping that proves we are truly saved?

What if you got the Sabbath day wrong? Then continual lifestyle of observing Sabbath on Sunday will condemn you.

What of divorcees who marry another (Mark 10:11 adulterers)? They are in continual/lifestyle of adultery therefore condemned.

Your's and Francis's doctrines seem very much like works and not grace.

It's sin of unbelief the world will be convicted of John 16:9.
---Haz27 on 10/10/11


Paul, Your contradicting the Word of God and making it a lie. You now say, that we are not saved yet because that is to come. So what God said is not true. That God never made us alive together with Christ, never set us in the heavenly places because it hasn't happen yet. Then you throw in works. How do you live with yourself teaching this garbish to Christian members at your church? Nothing really happen yet. It will happen at the wrath. The Bible speaks of salvation in the past, present and future? Read the passages in Eph. 2:4-10 and see why He already did what He said He did, "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus"
---Mark_V. on 10/10/11


Paul 2: Do you not understand what you are suggesting? That there is really no one born again, because we really were not made alive together with Christ when we were dead in trespasses, and never raised up together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that it was all a lie, because it never happen. That somehow it becomes reality if we endure till the end, because we have to do our works to endure if we have faith. You turned everything around to justy your theory. How you did that I don't know how, but you have. You twisted the meanings of Scripture to sadisfy you theory. I really hope no one hears this stuff at your church.
---Mark_V. on 10/10/11


\\But the Bible also speaks of being saved in the future terms.\\
---Paul on 10/10/11


Paul, you're right that the bible speaks of being saved in the future tense. It also mentions eternal life in both present and future tenses.

Something interesting, though, is that when either one are mentioned in the present or past tense, it is ONLY by the sovereignty of God and through faith ONLY.

But in future tense uses, works are always involoved.

there are different aspects of salvation. If you continue to think of salvation in such a narrow sense, you are going to end up concluding that the bible is contradictory
---James_L on 10/10/11


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Baloney. If everything was predestined, then the entire being and existence of Earth is meaningless.

---Rocky on 10/9/11

That is taking predestined to the extreme ends. Christ was predestinated. He came. Who did he come for? Was Israel Predestinated? To be a blessing,servant people, wife.
Some are some aren't. It was still foretold, and the Pre-destiny of "many".
Matt 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for "many" be called, but "few" chosen.

Many is not all.
---Trav on 10/10/11


Baloney. If everything was predestined, then the entire being and existence of Earth is meaningless.

---Rocky on 10/9/11

That is taking predestined to the extreme ends. Christ was predestinated. He came. Who did he come for? Was Israel Predestinated? To be a blessing,servant people, wife.
Some are some aren't. It was still foretold, and the Pre-destiny of "many".
Matt 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for "many" be called, but "few" chosen.

Many is not all.
---Trav on 10/10/11


1)Rocky, you are so arrogant to think you are controlling the whole show in a relationship with God almighty.
2)you are a clear and present danger to others as you advocate the Heresy of Arminianism.
.---Blogger9211 on 10/10/11
1)I never wrote or thought that. Your stupid assumption and wrongful attack only displays your own poor judgment.
2)How can I be any kind of danger to others if the elect are already predestined? Dont YOU believe what YOU are espousing?
Finally, youl are evading the question I asked on 10/9. It's a simple question, please stop evading and respond.
---Rocky on 10/10/11


Rocky, you are so arrogant to think you are controlling the whole show in a relationship with God almighty. God the father alone picked those who he wanted to be in his family. Christ crucifixion was necessary to pay price of the Elect to move from their previous Patria Potestas Into Gods. Your level of biblical ignorance of significant but worse you are a clear and present danger to others as you advocate the Heresy of Arminianism.
.
---Blogger9211 on 10/10/11


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Mark

Sorry if you misunderstood my post.

I don't mean to be contradictory at all.

But the Bible also speaks of being saved in the future terms.

And I think that is in keeping with the all around theme of scriptures.

Typically judgment was not pronounced upon anyone in the parables until the master returned from his journey to take an account.

Thus delaying the saving until after the act, those who ENDURE SHALL be saved.

And don't forget that Faith, which you must have to please God, is dead without works.

Paul
---Paul on 10/10/11


Haz, either you lack intelligence or purposefully misunderstand.

Francis' quote refers to the forgiven who .."does NOT return to a life of trangressing the law"

A lifestyle of law transgression refers to a person whose life is given to continual purposeful criminality.

Francis' quote therefore does not refer to one saved who may on occasion sin again.

I believe you are purposefully missunderstanding him so as to undermine his credibility, making you a deceiver, a person of poor character.

Such deceit is particularly unimpressive for someone who says the saved cannot sin!
---Warwick on 10/10/11


Paul, you contradict the words of God. Just read what you said, "And I realize we are saved by Grace and not of ourselves."
If you believe this statement, which speaks of saved (past tense) by grace, and then turn around and say,
'But I also know that if we turn from our savior unto the weak and beggarly elements again that we have backslidden and need to return as did the prodigal."
So now you say, we were never saved by grace to begin with, it was all a lie. There was no salvation. God says, "For by grace you have been saved" ". To show that it is not by any of your works, God says, not of works, lest anyone should boast. You say no, you were never saved to begin with. God says yes.
---Mark_V. on 10/10/11


"Rocky, your post sounds like a bad case of sour grapes from someone who did not make Gods list"

So you, Blogger, did "make God's list"?

How did you do that? Sounds as if somehow you managed to secure your place on the list!
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/10/11


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Free will is just being in a state of rebellion against almighty God and if that is what you advocate I have no use for you and I doubt that God does either.
---Blogger9211 on 10/10/11
Your statements make no sense. Without freewill to make a choice, what is faith? Or what are works if not freely chosen? Free will isn't a state of rebellion but the ability to choose to have faith in and love God. I don't want, nor believe, whatever automaton religion youre selling. It's sad that you presume to speak for God and to judge when we are commanded not to judge. Apparently though you have no free choice you're free to disobey God's commandments. How strange.
---Rocky on 10/10/11


Paul, I wonder if we were in jail together. That is where I ran into the most legalism being pushed by the SDA volunteers, anyone who didn't believe in their way of thinking was condemned, but if you were in with them, then they had the biggest hand squeeze and warmest greeting this side of the Mississippi. By the way, you can barely lecture a person with a measly 125 words. Also, I was trying to speak in love with gentle words, sorry if they came off another way.
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 10/10/11


I agree with Rocky. That is so silly.
---God.is.everywhere on 10/9/11


Rocky, your post sounds like a bad case of sour grapes from someone who did not make Gods list. God the father know everything you would do and would not do before the beginning of time and officers his irresistible grace to those of his personal choosing by a criteria only know to him at a time and location he deems appropriate. Free will is just being in a state of rebellion against almighty God and if that is what you advocate I have no use for you and I doubt that God does either.
---Blogger9211 on 10/10/11


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Francis said:
"GOD HAS FORGIVEN HIM.HIS SINS ARE COVERED and he does NOT return to a life of trangressing the law"

Yet you admit SDA's DO return to transgressing the law after being forgiven.
I suspect from your post you imply there is some limit to transgressing the law. Is this correct?

To return to sin is to return to works of the law. These are dead works (Heb 6:1)

2Pet 2:19 "if after they have escaped the pollutions (without Christ/self-righteousness) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein (returning to works of the law, establishing their own righteousness), and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning"
---Haz27 on 10/9/11


The answer is that going to heaven is by God the Father's invitation only and this determinations were made billions of years ago prior to the creation process and that is when God not Jesus made his choices. So if you were non-select then you are out of luck because invitation to Gods family are now closed.
---Blogger9211 on 10/9/11
Baloney. If everything was predestined, then the entire being and existence of Earth is meaningless. Why would God waste time creating meaningless things or listening to and answering prayers of billions of people when all is predestined anyway? It also is antithetical to free will and any concept of judgment based on works.
---Rocky on 10/9/11


Paul, Im not sure if you understand how sinful we are,
---Poppa_Bear on 10/7/11

Popa

My friend, I have done despicable things and even been to prison so please don't lecture me on what I do or do not know about how sinful we are.

And I realize we are saved by Grace and not of ourselves.

I know we can never be good enough to earn salvation also.

But I also know that if we turn from our savior unto the weak and beggarly elements again that we have backslidden and need to return as did the prodigal.

If you are practicing sin unto death or at Christs coming you will not enter Heaven according to Gods Word.

Paul
---Paul on 10/7/11


Popa

Paul:
What I was questioning is your judging whether someone is a Christian based on their lifestyle.

After all, you cant tell a tree by the fruit it bares....

Or can you?

Paul
---Paul on 10/7/11


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\\Francis said:
"Can a person go to Heaven no matter how they act, post-profession of Christ? NO NO NO"\\

In other words, francis, you do NOT believe in salvation through faith by grace alone, but in salvation by WORKS.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/7/11


---Haz27 on 10/7/11
1 Corinthians 5:11 I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is CALLED A BROTHER be a fornicator, or covetous,.. with such an one DO NOT EAT

One who is a christian doesn't return to sin.John 8:11 go, and sin no more.

Romans 4:7 Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Such a man is not guilty because GOD HAS FORGIVEN HIM.HIS SINS ARE COVERED and he does NOT return to a life of trangressing the law

2 Peter 2:21 it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment.
---francis on 10/8/11


"Can a person go to Heaven no matter how they act, post-profession of Christ?" No. One must also "believe in ones heart that God has raised Him from the dead." That is the "work of God" in man. He started that good work, He will bring it to completion. The character of one who has been adopted by the Father, will be molded by HIm "For whom the LORD loves He chastens corrects, instructs, and trains, And scourges every son whom He receives." Hbr 12:6-11
We are all at different stages of our Christian growth. Don't judge righteousness/holiness by works of the law. " ---Haz27 on 10/6/11 Amen.
The only righteousness or Holiness man will ever have, is in Christ.
---Josef on 10/8/11


It bothers me that people who call themselve christian do not read the bible.
Francis 10/7/11
It bothers me that you keep making these kind of stupid attacks on people that disagree with you. The Bible is a large and complicated book, subject to many interpretations. The greatest Biblical scholars and church leaders disagree with one another. Your dismissing others this way only proves your own poor judgment and arrogance and that you like to attack others instead of discussing scripture.
---Rocky on 10/8/11


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If one is truly a Christian, born spiritually in Christ, then that person will be molded into the image of Christ as he or she grows in the faith. "For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them". Eph. 2:10

So Yes, those not yet perfected in their Christian walk will have eternal life as scripture clearly states salvation is a gift thru grace received by faith -

(2:8-9)"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast".

Will any Adventist be able to boast that they kept the 10 commandments and thus merit eternal salvation?
---lee1538 on 10/9/11


The answer is that going to heaven is by God the Father's invitation only and this determinations were made billions of years ago prior to the creation process and that is when God not Jesus made his choices. So if you were non-select then you are out of luck because invitation to Gods family are now closed.
---Blogger9211 on 10/9/11


Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
---Rocky on 10/9/11


Paul said:
"what standard do you think men will be judged if not by the law of righteousness?"

Rom 9:31-33
" but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
Why? Because they did not seek it by FAITH, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written:
Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever BELIEVES on Him will not be put to shame.

1John5:5 "Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son of God?"

Rom 11:16 "if the firstfruit (Christ) is holy, the lump (believers) is also holy"
---Haz27 on 10/9/11


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Francis said:
"Can a person go to Heaven no matter how they act, post-profession of Christ? NO NO NO"

But later you quote James 2:12 "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty".

Knowing your insistence that commandment keeping is proof of salvation your 2 quotes above appear to be contradictory.
Can you explain your position further?
---Haz27 on 10/7/11


It bothers me that people who call themselve christian do not read the bible.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law,
(ALL OF US here have the bible and the law and we will be judged based on the law written in the bible)

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

If soem had taken thetime to evne read the bible, they would see that yes we will be judged by the law ( of liberty, of righteousness)
---Francis on 10/7/11


The righteous go to heaven, and the sinuous go to hell.
---Eloy on 10/7/11


Well, where will Jesus be while He is judging everyone??? Everyone will go where He will be judging. So, if judgment will be in Heaven, then everyone will go to Heaven! But not everyone will stay there!!

"Pursue peace with all men, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14) "Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17) And Isaiah 55:11 says God's word "shall accomplish" what God pleases. So, we who trust in the real Jesus are unconditionally guaranteed that God's word "shall accomplish" all that God pleases . . . all that God Himself means by His word!!!
---Bill_willa6989 on 10/7/11


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Paul, Im not sure if you understand how sinful we are, sin lurks in our humanity like dust in a house, though you mop-dust-sweep it, it still remains, yes, were called to pursue Holiness at all times and repent of our sins, but if you think that if you dropped dead this second and you were without sin then youre deceived., as true believers it is the Spirit which convicts us of sin. Even The recognition of sin is a gift of God through divers means and ultimately His Spirit convicting our Spirit. Sometimes it seems you propound some coltish system that cant contemplate anything but a rule keeping agenda.
Your tenacity is admirable and I can respect your position, but strongly disagree with you according to the Gospel/atonement of Jesus Christ.
---Poppa_Bear on 10/7/11


Paul:
What I was questioning is your judging whether someone is a Christian based on their lifestyle.

So does Clearview marry divorcees in light of Mark 10:11,12 considering your previous post questioning whether those in adultery would enter Heaven?
And do you have remarried divorcees (adulterers) in your church?
If so is Clearview confronting them?

INSTEAD scripture actually says that we are righteous and holy only because of Christ in us (not a self-righteous works/lifestyle).
Believe on Jesus.
---Haz27 on 10/7/11


Warwick said:
"If we believe God then we will not live a life contrary to His moral law."

And yet we see many do to varying degrees.
Hence my questioning you that this doctrine you follow is not the gospel of Christ.

What if you are observing the wrong Sabbath (Sunday instead of Saturday)? Your condemned by your own judgement.
Divorcees who marry another are in adultery (Mark 10:11,12) therefore condemned under your doctrine.

Your doctrine points to a limit on breaking commandments whereby it reveals someone is unsaved.

Yet God asks us to forgive 7x70.
But your doctrine suggests God is less forgiving than He asks us to be?

It seems your gospel is works and not grace.
---Haz27 on 10/7/11


Paul said, And by what standard do you think men will be judged if not by the law of righteousness? I dont mean to be over-analytical, but judged and justified have different connotations in the plan of salvation. We'll be justified by the saving work/merits of Christ, if it were any other way we'd be saving ourselves. Our works may be judged, and some by fire so that only the works of the Spirit will come forth reflecting God and glorifying him alone. Remember that the Apostle-Paul had to rebuke Peter because Peter was leading believers back into the law rather into the grace of our Lord, pleas be careful with this line that looks like legalism. This looks so much like a works based salvation and not a Christ centered Salvation.
70x7
---Poppa_Bear on 10/7/11


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Father will take Him to the wood shed for a licking, just like I do my child when he/she gets so out of line
---Poppa_Bear on 10/6/11

Popa

David turned from his ways and lived.
Ez 18:32

So if a Christian refuses to turn from sin and dies therein do you honestly think he is going to Heaven?
Ez 18:24

Paul
---Paul on 10/7/11


Paul, I believe you are wrong and James gave you a good explanation, so did Haz and Poppa Bear. The first thing you need to remember is that we are not save by any acts of our own. It is by Grace. Second, that the new life in us, our new creation in us, the Spirit of Christ, is sinless. The soul is not. The flesh is not. The soul has to be change by the Spirit through sanctification. The flesh will die. And we will receive new bodies prepared for eternity at the Second Coming. Our walk with Christ is to crucify ourselves, or carry our cross everyday now that we are saved, but we don't do it alone, for Christ lives in us. He Helps us for regeneration is a transformation. But in life we still fail, we sin. But we have an Advocate in Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 10/7/11


I guess you would not allow any such people in your church then and nor would your church marry such people into adultery. Or does your church allow/do this?
---Haz27 on 10/6/11

Haz

Dont stereotype me as some kook fringe radical because I believe the Bible.

And it is NOT MY CHURCH, It is Gods Church, and just so you know Clearview is a contemporary Church which is very accepting of people.

But I don't compromise God's Word to appease men.

And by what standard do you think men will be judged if not by the law of righteousness?

Paul
---Paul on 10/6/11


Paul said:
"So you believe a Christian can be living in adultery unrepeated and still enter Heaven?
God has a standard and it is Holiness, and without it you will not see God, Heb 12:14"

BUT what of this example:
Mark 10:11,12 describes divorcees who marry another as adulterers.

I guess you would not allow any such people in your church then and nor would your church marry such people into adultery. Or does your church allow/do this?

I suggest believe on Jesus and leave it to God to work in each Christian's life. We are all at different stages of our Christian growth. Don't judge righteousness/holiness by works of the law.
God knows our hearts.
---Haz27 on 10/6/11


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I believe that the Father disciplines/chastises His children and if a true child of His is living in adultery, the Father will take Him to the wood shed for a licking, just like I do my child when he/she gets so out of line that patient words wont help. I do it because I love them and want the best for them, I dont cast them off and shut the Dore of my home to my little ones. Does this line up with scripture for you? He dealt with Davids adultery and other treacheries and still called Him a man after His own heart.
In His loving grip, 70x7
---Poppa_Bear on 10/6/11


No they can not go to heaven no matter how they act,if its sinful. Only those who believe Christ is the son of God,born,died for our sins,and rose again alive setting on the right hand of God and have repented of their sins,made a commitment to God through Jesus and their names are written in the Book of Life and pass the judgement of God will go to heaven,read Revelations 20:12-15. The old saying "you can't do wrong and get by" applies perfectly to this.
---Darlene_1 on 10/6/11


Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Can a person go to Heaven no matter how they act, post-profession of Christ? NO NO NO
---francis on 10/6/11


Paul,

there are several issues that must be considered.

Redemption
Enlightening
Faith
Justification
Regeneration
Indwelling
Sealing

Romans 3-4, there is no room for boasting because it is all God's work

We must be enlightened by the Holy Spirit to believe. Then God justifies, regenerates, seals, indwells the believer.

What do you think a new creation is? When God recreates us, we are a sinless spirit in a sinful body. The only thing a believer needs in order to go to heaven is to DIE physically, and leave this sinful flesh here.

I asked you to write me once, and you never have. I'll invite you again. If you want to get to the bottom of our differences, write me.

jamea3384
---James_L on 10/5/11


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Didn't the Lord Jesus have something to say about people who just said "Lord, Lord"? Such people were making a profession....
---God.is.everywhere on 10/5/11


Paul,

stop trying to change the words of scripture to match your doctrine.

1Cor 6:9 says nothing about ENTERING the Kingdom. It says INHERIT the Kingdom.

The promised land was an OT image of the Kingdom. But some who ENTERED the promised land had no INHERITANCE IN the promised land.

Also, John 12:42-43
Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that the would be put out of the synagogue, for they loved the approval of men rathe than the approval of God.

The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers who were considering returning to the Law so they wouldn't SUFFER persecution.
---James_L on 10/5/11


Psalms 25:13 His soul shall dwell at ease, and his seed shall inherit the earth.

Psalms 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Psalms 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalms 37:22 For [such as be] blessed of him shall inherit the earth, and [they that be] cursed of him shall be cut off.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


OUR INHERITANCE IS THE EARTH
---francis on 10/6/11


Paul....Heb.10:10 says we(believers) have been made Holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.
Heb.10:14 goes on to say that by one sacrifice he has made perfect FOREVER those who are being made Holy.
---JIM on 10/6/11


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James

So if Heaven is not our inheritance, then what is?

We are heirs with Christ,Rom 8:17 declares, and your suffering argument is applicable to all Christians for we all suffer the lose of our desires in life for Christ.

1 Cor 6:9 kinda sums it all up for us, in regards to who will enter the kingdom or not.


Popa

So you believe a Christian can be living in adultery unrepeated and still enter Heaven?

God has a standard and it is Holiness, and without it you will not see God, Heb 12:14

Paul
---Paul on 10/5/11


Paul,

If you think the inheritance is entrance into heaven, then you have a lot more studying to do.

Go back to the Old Testament and study the inheritance. It was given to whomever was chosen (elect) to receive it. Isreal was chosen to recieve an inheritance and Gentiles were not.

But there were many Gentile believers (Rahab, Ruth, etc)

Apostle Paul wrote "Salvation has come to the Gentiles"

Inheritance is ONE ASPECT of salvation. If "heaven" is only now available to Gentiles, how do you explain the Gentile believers in the OT? Are they in hell?
---James_L on 10/5/11


Do you think that we can add anything else to Christs saving work on the Cross? Can we earn salvation, or work hard enough to get to heaven? Are the good works we bare a manifestation of the new birth or a matter of keeping as many laws as possible in order to make some mark? What is the role of the atonement, propitiation and the new covenant in all this? Also, who is teaching that Christians can do anything and go to heaven? I missed that blog.
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 10/5/11


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