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Date Of Trinity Doctrine

At what point in time did the trinity doctrine emerge?

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 ---1st_cliff on 11/15/11
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Warwick, Archaeological scientists (of the long ages persuasion) claim that Australia and south America (Argentina in this subject) were once joined via Antarctica, explaining the relative of the platypus fossils being found there!
I'm not saying that I agree but it is an alternative to dogmatism!
BTW Wang Wang and Funi are Giant pandas currently in Australia but are indiginous only to China, again creating problems with global flood!
I don't hastily dismiss anything without thorough study! Agape
---1st_cliff on 11/27/11

Cliff, "Jesus said to him, Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."..John 14:8,9

"He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high." Hebrews 1:3

"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities,..." Colossians 1:15

See Nehemiah 9:6 Jesus is the Lord God, Creator of everything, worshipped by "the host of heaven.'"
---Warwick on 11/27/11

Cliff, up and down are earth-bound realities so I consider it is you who are upside down.

A study of the fossil record shows creatures living in any area today are those which have survived there. Interestingly the platypus is considered to be uniquely Australian however platypus fossils have been found in Patagonia.

I am also confident you know of thre fossils of creatures no longer living in the ole US of A which come out of the ooze at the La Brea tarpits. Fossils of many creatures which no longer live in the UK are found there, even rhinocerus! So that which lives here is what survived here. Most likely because of the lack of large predators.

Kangaroos are found on the islands to Australia's north, as well.
---Warwick on 11/26/11

Warwick,Ok,I suppose you take it, that because Thomas said "You are the God of me" Jesus commends him for this, even though scripture says "no man can see me (God) and live"???
Jesus is commending him for accepting the fact that He returned from the grave!That he now understands that as the "Christ' He has the mastery over death!
If your best friend was resurrected ,wouldn't you be "taken aback"??
When Jesus asked the disciples "Who do you say I am?" Not one said "you are the God of me"
Our Thanksgiving was Oct.12
---1st_cliff on 11/26/11

That word is GOD and in the Hebrew it is Elohim and Elohim is a "uniplural noun" which means more than one

more than one is two or more

it is STRETCH to IMPLY it means three when not one verse supports "three gods"

Apostles NEVER acknowledge ANY OTHER GOD

Christ HIMSELF ONLY acknowledges The Father in Heaven

rcc's babylonian pagan trinity was absorbed into this false churches doctrines and all who worship and serve a trinity god bow down and serve their MOTHER (REV 17)

True Believers fellowship with The Father in Heaven through Christ Jesus the ONLY GODS recognized by the Apostles
---Rhonda on 11/26/11

Warwick, Sorry I didn't realize that you were "dayne unda"
Now I see why we're at opposite ends of the (theology) spectrum, from my geographical position, you are always upside-down!(LOL)
Do the kangaroos, and koala bears. and creatures indigenous only to Australia complicate the "world flood" belief? It's a long way from Mt.Ararat!
---1st_cliff on 11/26/11

Cliff, Biblically speaking what is God's name?

I have to give it to you, you are a tryer!

John 20:28 Thomas won't believe unless he sees and touches Jesus wounds.

Jesus appears before Thomas-see and touch!

Thomas said to Jesus, got that he directed these words to Jesus-My Lord and My God. This is not just some meaningless babble but Thomas' words to Jesus.

Jesus said you now believe because you have seen. Believed what? That Jesus is-the Lord of Me, and the God of me. Just as Thomas says.

Jesus is also here called the Son of God. That by itself is calling Him God, as a son is equal in substance to his father. Your sons are equal in substance to you aren't they?
---Warwick on 11/26/11

Yes Cliff he had long been Thomas' Lord, now He calls Him My Lord and my God.

We don't do Thanksgiving Dinner in Australia, that's a US thing!
---Warwick on 11/26/11

Warwick,**believed what?**
That he returned from the grave, from being dead. That was the shocker. He had been Thomas' Lord for 3 1/2 years!
Using the lord's name in vain?? Do you think "God" or Lord" is the Creator's name??
When You race, do you get a free Thanksgiving dinner??
---1st_cliff on 11/23/11

Cliff, John 20:28 "Thomas answered him, My Lord and my God!" Literally The Lord of me and the God of me. Nothing like "Oh my god."

Vs 29 'Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Believed what? That from Thomas' statement Jesus knows Thomas now believes Jesus is his Lord, and God. Jesus' reply is in direct responce to Thomas' statement of belief. Otherwise the dialogue makes no sense.

It was not uncorrected blasphemy (using the Lord's name in vain) between a Godly man and his God. The JW's still have you.

Off car racing tomorrow (Thursday) back Saturday.
---Warwick on 11/23/11

Warwick, What's the difference in "The Lord of me" or "The God of me" and
"Oh! my god?'
Scarcely a day goes by without hearing someone who have been "taken aback" from uttering these words.Not declaring that that person is their god!
Jesus was not going to nit-pic semantics understanding Thomas' shock!
Non of His disciples referred to Jesus as "God", but Christ "Son" of the living God (Peter)
Thomas said "God" so that makes him God??? Naw! It's a big bible!
---1st_cliff on 11/22/11

Cliff, have a look at what and how I write-sentences, Biblical quotations and explanations and have a look at what you write. You, and others ask many questions and I do not have time to answer them all.

What Thomas was shown was enough to cause him to call Jesus-The Lord of me, and the God of me. Jesus in His risen body was obviously different in appearance as the meeting on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13 "their eyes were kept from recognizing him.") and at the tomb shows. Despite the difference in appearance Thomas did not have to touch Jesus' wounds to know he was standing in the presence of God. Seeing His wounds was enough, as for Mary the sound of His voice-John 20:16.
---Warwick on 11/22/11

Warwick, Let's hold on here a second!
You are accusing me of doing exactly what you do, namely, ignore my questions.
I don't answer rhetorical Qs but I don't ignore important ones!
What He showed Thomas was not His "glorified body" but similar to Angels he could materialize in any form he chose. Remember they thought he was the Gardiner, not recognizing someone they knew for many years!
Now answer my Qs!
---1st_cliff on 11/22/11

Cliff, stop asking questions and answer a few.

"Can you give a Biblical quote which places man's logic above God's revealed truth?"

You asked: "How come when He showed Thomas His "glorified" body , that it still had holes in it???"

I answered "Doesn't John 20:28 plainly answer that? To show Thomas (and others) He was Jesus, God the risen Saviour, not a ghost. Thomas definitely got the point!"

Doesn't this deserve a responce?

Don't you notice what you do? You ask multiple questions which I endeavour to answer but you mostly ignore my answers, not acknowledging them as true, or showing where they are wrong, but just move on to the next question.
---Warwick on 11/22/11

Warwick, Man's failable logic??
You have a problem with discernment! (like the immortal God died)
You can't comprehend "death"
You think shedding a body is death? Angels don't have bodies, are they all dead?
Death is the absence of life, Resurrection is the re-creating of life IE your memory, personality,cognizance etc. That's the real miracle of being resurrected, not going to Walmart and buying a new suit! What kind of resurrection is that?
---1st_cliff on 11/22/11

Cliff "But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." Hebrews 2:9

Please explain what this Scripture means.
---Warwick on 11/22/11

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Cliff you stick with man's falible fallen logic, and I will hold God's word supreme. Can you give a Biblical quote which places man's logic above God's revealed truth?
---Warwick on 11/21/11

**He lowered Himself but He was still God**
1Tim.6.16. God alone is "IMMORTAL"

He was still God, God was was/is immortal, God died on Calvary????
Explain that without too much fancy dancing!
---1st_cliff on 11/21/11

Jesus emptied himself by putting on a body. Satan bore false-witness against my God saying, "You do not know what it is like upon the earth, suffering in the flesh, for you sit up there in your glory and paradise detached from the suffering upon the earth: the pain, the hardship, the hunger, the thirst, and the death, none of this you know." Now, God Almighty has proven Satan's accusations to be false, for he has taken upon himself the full fury of hell, and was mocked and spit upon and beaten and crucified. "O death, where your sting? O hell, where your victory? I have overcome. And I am he that lives and was dead, and here, I am alive for evermore, A-men, and have the keys of hell and of death."
---Eloy on 11/21/11

Cliff, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness" Philippians 2:6,7

By becoming man to become a servant He lowered Himself but He was still God. Now somewhat limited by His physical body, limited in a number of ways including limited to be in one place at a time.

Regarding *You have been told many times** you miss my point. Go read through it again.
---Warwick on 11/21/11

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Warwick,**Whoever believes in Me, Though he "die" yet shall he live**.
**Whoever believes in me and "lives" will never die**
Where's your "discernment"?
Obviously 2 different time periods!
Both are believers ,one dies one doesn't!
The 2nd one is talking about being alive during "transition"
At His return!
All believers get everlasting life, right?
Thoses who are alive "then"
Those who are dead, by "resurrection"!
Where's the error here??
---1st_cliff on 11/20/11

He made Himself of no reputation, emptied Himself He set aside His majesty, not His deity. Is that logical? Have you never heard about kings and rulers who have set aside their splendor/robes, crowns and scepters and walked the streets of their subjects as a common or beggar? Did they stop becoming the king at that point?
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 11/20/11

For the light for the trinity or triune god head teachings came from here, 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15, the devil gave to Many of man kind & God put those Man - made trinity relig org's churches here, Rev.17 v's 4 - 6. Those that worship the gods of isalm, buddha, hindu etc Will fall in line also.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/20/11

No Warwick, No games, Phil. says "He emptied Himself"
You say He was still "fully God" One of these statements is true!
**God praises faith** faith in your ideas??
**You have been told many times** does that make it "truth"?
Of 7 billion people on this got it perfect??
I appreciate your wealth of knowledge,but you know,(like me) you could be wrong!
That's why I never stop seeking!
My belief, so far, is logical!
---1st_cliff on 11/20/11

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John 20 v's 19 - 20, 25 - 28. Not only did He have the nail prints & the riven side, no doubt that he also had the hair on His head & face, even teeth in His mouth, finger & toe nails. He prepared bread & fish for Simon Peter & the others though being a glorified body.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/20/11

From Bible facts -

The word "Trinity" does not appear in the Bible

The word "Trinity" was first used by Tertullian (c.155-230)

The doctrine of the Trinity is commonly expressed as: "One God, three Persons"

The doctrine is formally defined in the Nicene Creed, (~325 ad)which declares Jesus to be: "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father."

There are verses in the Bible that would make little sense apart from the doctrine of the Trinity.

Usually the cults of today are the ones that reject the Trinity,but who in their right minds would want to identify with them?
---lee1538 on 11/20/11

Cliff read John 11:25,26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

What does this mean Cliff?

While you are at it read John 6:47,50,51,58 and 8:51.

What are these verses telling us?
---Warwick on 11/20/11

Cliff, you play games. You have been told many times God the Son is fully God and fully man. God is not man as Scripture says, but spirit. As the coming Messiah said "... a body you prepared for me." And this body was Jesus born of Mary, by the Holy Spirit.

Neither you, or any man, can comprehend this or any of the other mysteries of God, such by what means Lazarus was recreated.

God praises faith but scorns scepticism, saying that which is not faith is sin. Where is your faith?

Why did Jesus' glorified body still have the holes? Doesn't John 20:28 plainly answer that? To show Thomas (and others) He was Jesus, God the risen Saviour, not a ghost. Thomas definitely got the point!
---Warwick on 11/19/11

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Cliff, are you asking about the Spiritual aspect, or the physical aspect of His death? Also, when he arose from the grave that was His resurrection body, when John saw Him on the island of Patmos that was His glorified body.
---Poppa_Bear on 11/20/11

What father would not die to rescue his children? even so did our heavenly Father come down and give his life, laying down his life and paying the ultimate sacrifice for us, so that we may live, and always be with him forever and ever, in us he is and we in him, in the sacred bond of holiness. Thank you Jesus. Bless the Lord O' my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
---Eloy on 11/20/11

\\Cluny, Thanks for your input on this subject, but I need you to go one step further:
Define this "death" that Jesus "borrowed" and destroyed!\\

PHysical death.

\\Because If you look around you'll see that death is still very prevalent!\\

But we know from His Resurrection that death is NOT the last word, as He arose in His human nature as well.

\\At the moment of His death , did He cease to exist?\\

No, He didn't. You didn't think He did, did you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/20/11

Cluny, Thanks for your input on this subject, but I need you to go one step further:
Define this "death" that Jesus "borrowed" and destroyed!
Because If you look around you'll see that death is still very prevalent!
At the moment of His death , did He cease to exist?
---1st_cliff on 11/19/11

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Lawrence N, **He had a glorified body**
How come when He showed Thomas His "glorified" body , that it still had holes in it???
Scripture says Jesus (you call God) died..
You say God (Jesus) didn't die, His flesh did!
If you think a pile of human flesh and bones bought your salvation,you're very much mistaken!
---1st_cliff on 11/19/11

cliff, YOU can gobbledygook all you want.
And besides, the apostate trinity churches Are trying to do this, John 10 v 1.

1st. Tim. 3 v 16. God didn't die, the flesh did.
When Jesus came out from the tomb, he had a glorified body. He appeared unto them through closed doors.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/19/11

This idea of God not able to die or not able to do anything that he chooses to do is NonBiblical, for Scripture and history record that not only did he choose to die for others, but that he also raised himself back up from the dead after foolish man thought that they could actually dispose of the almighty. Not only did holy God sacrifice himself and become sin and go to hell, but he unlocked the chasms of his dead saints and released them from hell and he also resurrected himself back up from the dead, and he is coming back down again to his earth to make a final judgment of sinners, and separate them into damnation and the righteous into paradise.
---Eloy on 11/19/11

\\If Jesus is God could He have died??????\\

You see, Jesus is not merely a man who became God or absorbed into God. That seems to be your first mistake.

Jesus is God Incarnate. In the Incarnation, God took what was foreign to Himself by nature, namely flesh, mutability, pain, and death, in oder to free us from the effects of sin.

Jesus borrowed death in His human nature, which He truly suffered, to destroy it.

NOW do you understand?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/18/11

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Well everyone if you will look at the 4th word in your Bible you will have a clue to the teaching of the Trinity. That word is GOD and in the Hebrew it is Elohim and Elohim is a "uniplural noun" which means more than one. There are many scriptures to prove a trinity Godhead but this is where to begin.
---Charles on 11/18/11

Warwick, I would like an answer to my 2nd question 11/18/11 If you can't answer it ,just say so!
As for "knowing God" Jn.17. it means everlasting like to "know him"
This doesn't mean just to "know who he is" I know who Obama is but I don't "know" him! (get the picture?)
God is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, He has a Son Jesus and together they use Holy Spirit power,No problem "understanding" this!

No 1+1+1=1 No 1 in 3 or 3 in 1. 3 persons =1 person, smoke and mirrors.
Of course this is not understood ,and it's designed that way for that purpose!
God is not the author of confusion!
---1st_cliff on 11/18/11

Warwick, Even though we differ in our view of this subject,we have never been rude to each other (maybe a little caustic)
So we have some 36 hits you'll notice that Scott and David are conspicuously absent tho they dearly love to debate this topic!
If they did it would appear that they were supporting me, and that can never happen!
If I was drowning they would throw me a rope and a manhole cover!
By their "doctrines" you will know them,no no by their "fruits" love,joy ,peace,long suffering,mercy....
Nice people!
---1st_cliff on 11/19/11

In Genesis chapter 1. IN the beginning God created the heavens and the earth... God is one. The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep... God's Spirit is two.
God said let there be... if God said it He used words, what or who is the word of God? John chapter 1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. By him was all things made and nothing was made that was made without him. The word is the third. Don't try to understand this in human terms. The three are individual persons but are in all ways one God. They are equal in all ways. They are one and work as one.
The essence of God is a mystery to humans.
---harold on 11/18/11

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Lawrence N, **One God and Jesus Christ is His name**
This is the classic example of gobbledygook

God is "immortal" period!

If Jesus is God could He have died??????

Lawrence is not alone with this idea unfortunately.
---1st_cliff on 11/18/11

Cliff, you have had the Trinity explained to you many times. You cannot understand as you are trying to understand God, not by faith, but by human knowledge and intellect. Do you know of any Scripture which tells you any man can do this?

See John 3:1-15 Jesus said "You must be born again" Nicodemus asked "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born?"

'Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?'"

That is Nick. spiritually speaking you are thick as a brick. He like you was trying to understand the spiritual in human physical terms.
---Warwick on 11/18/11

After Adam the first man was created, in the 42nd century B.C.
---Eloy on 11/17/11

Warwick , This is where we get the"Double talk",
3 "seperate" persons" (your words) and each one is named God,(God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) then....count them...3 seperate gods!
It's not a matter of understanding, it's trying to make fantacy,reality!
One more thing , from your perspective.
Define "immortality" applied to Jesus (whom you call God)
---1st_cliff on 11/18/11

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That Is Unholy trinity because there is No such a thing as holy trinity. The Apostates got their light - info from here 2nd.Cor.11 v 14. That Is where the deceiving triune godhead light came from, & Is Man - made

One God & Jesus Christ Is His name.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/18/11

Cliff, regarding the Lord's Prayer Jesus told His listeners "This, then, is how you should pray:our Father in heaven."

Why would you imagine I consider the Son to be the Father? They are the one God (who is spirit) in 3 separate persons.

As I said if you feel you need to understand this through human intellect and reasoning, good luck! You may as well try to understand the process by which our sin was washed away. We know it was but what was the process?

Jesus gave a man blind from birth his sight. How did He do this?

Slow process indeed.
---Warwick on 11/17/11

\\Beginning with the apostate roman cath church.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/17/11\\

Lawrence, do you realize that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was taught in the East BEFORE it was taught in Rome?

It was the apostate Arian church that first denied this teaching.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 11/17/11

Beginning with the apostate roman cath church.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/17/11

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Emma, thank you for your lovely comments.

Don't worry about excommunication as I haven't excommunicated anyone for years.

I have excommunicated myself from a few people though.

I do not expect we will have any troubles.
---Warwick on 11/17/11

Warwick, I said nothing about one being "better" than the other but the fact that even you see the difference in rank indicates they are not exactly the same (person?)
Slow process!
Jesus said "Our Father which art in heaven"
Jesus is standing in front of them saying the "Father" is in heaven...tell me how they are the "same" person!
---1st_cliff on 11/17/11

Cliff, the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. 1 God 3 persons, not 3 Gods or 3 people. By lying to the Holy Spirit they lied to God, (not to man or an impersonal force) as He is God. No contradiction.

King James 2000 Bible (2003) "the Spirit himself makes intercession for us" How can an impersonal force make intercession?

The Holy Spirit has all the attributes of personality:
Emotions Ephesians 4:30
A mind 1 Corinthians 2:10
A will 1 Corinthians 12:11
Note the Greek word here for will is the same as used in James 1:8 to describe Jehovahs will.
See also Acts 16:6 where the Holy Spirit forbids Paul to preach in Asia.
Testifies John 15:26
---Warwick on 11/16/11

Cliff you suggest there is rank within the Godhead. We need to remember that rank does not make one person better than another just greater positionally

At this very moment we have President Obama in Australia. He is greater in rank compared to other Americans but not better!

And all the Republicans say Amen!

In the NT the Greek 'meizon' is used to show the Father is higher in rank than Jesus. Higher in rank but not better in nature (Philippians 2:6-11). And 'kreitton' is used regarding Jesus being 'better' than the angels.
---Warwick on 11/16/11

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1st Cliff: 'Warwick, Your last 2 paragraphs are contradictory'

There are ways to fit both of the things quoted by Warwick together. In Acts, Peter compares/separates lying to men and to God/the Holy Spirit.

In Matt 12,Jesus separates two DIFFERENT things - Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

In fact (though I MAY BE GROSSLY WRONG,forgive me if I am!!!!!), when Jesus talks about Son of Man, is it only the The Word Become Flesh? If we speak against the ETERNAL WORD, is that forgiven?

Sorry, but as one weak in spirit, I know not!
---Peter on 11/16/11

Warwick, I see you are wise in God. I don't AGREE in everything (maybe I'm a bit liberal in some things) but I RESPECT you in ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING

We have not met before, but if we are to discuss, let's do it IN THE PEACE OF JESUS

If I make a mistake, please correct me in peace, and if I feel your statement is more than it should be (I am slightly open to Genesis days the first three days of genesis, before the sun, not being 24 hours, please don't excommunicate me!!! - blessings) I will ask you as a wiser person in Christ.

But let us be people who talk about things in peace!!!!
---Emma on 11/16/11

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
--Maybe in rank, but not in power or essence.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
---micha9344 on 11/16/11

Warwick, Your last 2 paragraphs are contradictory.IE

**Peter "clearly" says lying to the Holy Spirit is the "same" as lying to God**
**If Jesus meant blaspheming the Holy Spirit was blaspheming against the Father He would have said so**
You just cited Peter as saying so!

As for an impersonal "it" (Rom.8.26.KJV)
The Father "sends" it (and the Son)
The Son "sends" it
The Son never sends the Father
The Holy Spirit never sends either!
We have "rank" here!
---1st_cliff on 11/16/11

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Scott1: I had the impression that God's comment was an indication of the crucifixion of Christ and the final destruction of Satan, but I was not sure why it was 'her seed', while Jesus says 'The Son of man'.

The virgin birth, as you say, is a good explanation - thanks.

Se even in Genesis we see the trinity!
---Peter on 11/16/11

Cliff, it may be a fine point but "However there is a sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that cannot be forgiven" (Holman p223)is not the same as you wrote "only HS cannot forgive.."

Cliff, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead, He is not some impersonal "it" emanating from the Father. As Holman says blasphemy in the Biblical sense is a sin against God. It is impossible to blaspheme an impersonal "it."

Peter clearly says lying to the Holy Spirit is the same as lying to God.

If Jesus really meant that blaspheming the Holy Spirit was blaspheming against the Father He would have said so. He would not have singled out the Holy Spirit if he meant otherwise. Would he?
---Warwick on 11/16/11

Warwick, That same Holman dictionary says "cannot" be forgiven! Also it says blasphemy involves the actual pronunciation of the name of God! Holy Spirit does not have a personal name like YHVH or Jesus.
Your citing of Peter saying "you lied God" of course, the Holy Spirit belongs to and comes from God,same thing as lying "TO" God
When Chubby Checker sings ,I'll bet you can do the "twist" huh?
Sorry, I'm not trying to be smart, just realistic.
---1st_cliff on 11/16/11

Cliff, "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." Luke 12:10.

You wrote "only HS cannot forgive," somewhat different.

The Holman Bible dictionary says "In the Biblical context blasphemy is an attitude of disrespect that finds expression in an act directed against the character of God."

Why would we get our Biblical definitions from the world?

Peter said "you have lied to the Holy Spirit....You have not lied just to human beings but to God." Very clear!
---Warwick on 11/16/11

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//Gen 3:15 has 'her seed' which MAY be the 'Son of Man'?//

yes this is a reference to The Son or Jesus. After a crucifix the person's heel would have bruses and cuts from lifting themselves up to breath. Also note it is "her seed" not "his seed" aka virgin birth. Everywhere else in the Bible it is his son (seed) or the son of father's name.
---Scott1 on 11/16/11

\\Trinity isnt biblical neither is unitrianism\\

What is "unitrianism"?

Or are you trying to spell unitarianism?

The word "Bible" isn't in the Bible, either, for that matter.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/16/11

Trinity isnt biblical neither is unitrianism. both are wrong GOD IS A MILLION
---anonymous on 11/16/11

Warwick, Let me put this another way,
If God is immortal and Jesus is God How could Jesus (God) die?
Shedding a body is not "death"
**that the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed means He is God**
Warwick, anybody can be blasphemed..only HS cannot forgive!
---1st_cliff on 11/16/11

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Cliff, God is immortal-God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

the coming Messiah said "a body you prepared for me." Hebrews 10:5

If the Messiah already had a body why did He need another? Is it not just as Hebrews ch.'s 1 & 2 say, the Son had 2 natures.

Firstly the spirit, (as God is spirit, not flesh-John 4:24) Jesus is the Son of God, or the Son who is God Hebrews 1:8.

Secondly the flesh as per Hebrews 2:17 "... made like his brothers in every respect." The Son of man as Jesus called Himself-Matthew 8:20.

As Jesus said "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven..."

That the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed means He is God.
---Warwick on 11/16/11

At what point? Are you serious? Do you even read the Holy Bible? Here lies the Holy Trinity straight from the very first book and first chapter of Genesis

verse 1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

verse 2 "And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

verse 3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
---christan on 11/16/11

Cliff when you say the Trinity doctrine makes no sense, in one way you are correct.

God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. We know that means He is all knowing, all powerful, and everywhere. He is eternal, therefore outside of time. Must we understand, or by faith accept this?

Jesus spoke and out came Lazarus' rotting corpse, recreated. Do we need to understand how He did it?

Trinity is reality, but outside our knowledge, experience or intellect.

Should we believe only if we understand these things?

Does Scripture say it is by human might, power, or knowledge that we are saved? Not once: for good reason. A chapter of Hebrews extols faith, not a sentence extols human intellect
---Warwick on 11/16/11

\\**Cluny, you make a lot of sense here**(Peter)
The trinity as a doctrine makes absolutely no sense!\\

Of course it doesn't! That's why we know it's not of mere human invention, but comes from above.

Remember, the wisdom of this world (or "sense", as you call it) is FOOLISHNESS to God!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/16/11

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I would say it was when Jesus Christ said:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

One might wonder why all three names. But none the less here you have it.

Not a person, you're right!
He is a spirit!
Mat_1:18 child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat_1:20 is of the Holy Ghost.
Joh_4:26 he shall teach you
---TheSeg on 11/15/11

"'For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.'" (John 5:22-23)

So, Jesus did not use the word "Trinity". But . . . "honor the Son just as they honor the Father" is pretty clear to me.

Whatever you believe about the "Trinity", it is clear our Father expects us to honor His Son "just as" we honor the Father. So, this is not just about what idea to believe, but all it means for us to do.
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/15/11

**Cluny, you make a lot of sense here**(Peter)
The trinity as a doctrine makes absolutely no sense!
#! God alone has immortality.
Jesus died!
#2 (at Jesus' baptism) a voice from heaven said "this is my Son in whom I am well pleased"
I'm pleased with myself??? or I'm a ventriloquist?
#3 Lord's prayer = "Our Father which art in heaven"
Is that not me standing right here in front of you????
The Father and Son can forgive (blasphemy) but not the Holy Spirit? Because HS is not a "person"!
Get it right!
---1st_cliff on 11/15/11

Cluny, you make a lot of sense here!

All four Gospels mention all Three Persons, though John uses 'advocate' more often, as John refers to Jesus speaking about the Spirit. But all the Gospel Writers wrote abut all three....

So the trinity doctrine is as old as the Gospels. As to the OT, Gen 1:2 has 'the Spirit of God', while Gen 3:15 has 'her seed' which MAY be the 'Son of Man'?


May you be always blessed, Cluny
---Peter on 11/15/11

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\\I looked up trinity in the wikipidia and if you look under the topic "personage" this is what is said,"Nicene and Constantinopolitan creeds, the Ephesine Formula of 431" So it came about between 3to4hundred years after Jesus.
---candice on 11/15/11\\

This is not true. Wikipedia and such secular sources are about as reliable for church history as the religion section of the average metropolitan newspaper.

There are historical creeds with a Trinitarian structure that PRE-DATE the Council of NIcea by centuries.

The Council of Ephesus had nothing to do with the Trinity, btw, but had to do with the Incarnation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/15/11

Before humans started reckoning time.

It became clear to the first generation of Christians that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

Or were you wondering when the first time the term "trinitas" (Latin) or "triadi" (Greek) was used?

The most important thing is to be caught up into the kind of life the three Persons have in themselves--eternal life, as John 3:16 puts it--rather than worrying about when the teaching got more precisely formulated.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/15/11

I looked up trinity in the wikipidia and if you look under the topic "personage" this is what is said,"Nicene and Constantinopolitan creeds, the Ephesine Formula of 431" So it came about between 3to4hundred years after Jesus.
---candice on 11/15/11

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