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Go To Heaven At Death

Do people go to heaven when they die?

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 ---1st_cliff on 11/19/11
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Mark V, I appreciate your dialog as iron sharpens iron.
I have been going forward since leaving fundamentalism many years ago. That's the gap between you and I. Your belief system is still clouded from years of going in circles (nothing personal) all fundamentalists are on the same merry-go-round. Truth is progressive not static!
I have no problem seeing the "big" picture, not sketches.
---1st_cliff on 12/3/11

Cliff you attempt to avoid the obvious implication of Genesis 19:24. Too difficult to explain away?

God is creator of everything in all its vast array, and mind-boggling complexity. He created Adam and eve perfect with all their faculties functioning. They were created walking, talking reasoning, and loving. Language was a gift of God, not learned. Why do you assume they could not write? Do you say God is incapable of doing this?

I believe we cannot put Immortal Immaterial God who is everywhere into the 'entity' box. The very idea of any measurements applied to an immaterial being is invalid. God exists eternally, before matter. No universe, no, sun, no earth, no atmosphere. Not even time. Any you would attempt to measure Him!
---Warwick on 12/3/11

Cliff, I'm also sure that no matter what I give you from the Word of God, will not bring you to faith in the Eternal Son of God. That alone stops you from going forward. If you do not believe that, all the passages I give will do you no good. They haven't so far when others have answered you for a couple of years so far. I have no power to change minds. I can discuss passages with those who believe by faith in the Eternal Son of God. But such a God cannot be found out by searching. He can be known only as He is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit through the Word. So I will move on and leave you peace with Warwick.
---Mark_V. on 12/3/11

Warwick, **from** Again you're arguing semantics from an era in which no "written" language existed!
Any entity made up of 3 parts,one part would be 1/3
"**indivisible** would mean that when Christ died , they all died.. like I say Warwick it makes no sense!
---1st_cliff on 12/3/11

Mark V, **He also "had" the spirit of God** can you explain that? and **in the "spirit" He was fully God**??
**He died just like you and me** When we die we are no longer concious!Eccl.9.5.
Are we on the same page???
---1st_cliff on 12/2/11

Cliff if you were correct Genesis 19:24 would read -The Lord in heaven rained down sulphur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah. But it says more "Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. Very different. I am confident you see the difference.

As God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have during all eternity been invisible, indivisible spirit the idea of 1/3 is not applicable.

At that time Jesus directed His followers to pray to the Father. Why? Philippians 2:6 gives us a clue. "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped," In His incarnation He was not as He was from eternity, obviously, or the same as He is now.
---Warwick on 12/2/11

Jehovah was not present at Sodom and Gomorrah, He was represented there by 2 angels who in vs.13 said "WE are going to destroy this place"
**Who said Jesus is the Father?** You.. He's all 3 according to your belief in the trinity, (or is He just 1/3 of the Godhead?)
Who is Jesus telling them to pray to?? According to trinitarians ,Jesus accepts prayer.Is He not both Son and Father??
Strange god you have there Warwick!
My God is all powerful and He has a Son, too simple??
---1st_cliff on 12/2/11

Cliff, before Jesus died He had a body just like any human. He also had the Spirit of God. In the flesh He was fully man, in the Spirit He was fully God. When He died in the flesh, He died just like you and me. When He resurrected He resurrected with a glorified body. Just as will will at the Second Coming. I don't know what it so hard to understand. He who had no sin, died in the flesh for you and me. Stop making it hard. If you don't believe, it's ok, you are not alone.
---Mark_V. on 12/2/11

Cliff, who said Jesus is the Father?

Regarding the Lord's prayer notice Jesus tells us to pray "Our Father."

Scripture tells us "who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness" Philippians 2,6,7.He chose to become a servant, on earth, for a while somewhat limited.

Consider Genesis 19:24 "Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. Why did Jehovah on earth call down sulphur and fire from Jehovah "out of heaven"? Was Jehovah on earth unable to do this personally?

---Warwick on 12/2/11

Mark V, Do you read what you write??
Resurrection means re standing to life!
His glorified body never was dead, how could it be resurrected???
For "Him" to be resurrected "in" a glorified body would have to be that "He" died!which you don't believe! Therein lies the problem!
You would have to be conscious to raise yourself, meaning you weren't dead!
My Jesus "died' for me!
not faking it!
---1st_cliff on 12/2/11

Cliff, of course He had a resurrected glorified body. Not the Old body He had when He died. Second, the Bible does not say He walked through any walls. He appeared to them inside while the doors were closed. You are thinking like a human. He was God in His Glorified resurrected body. If you cannot phantom that how can you believe He was God who created all things? He even tells us He raise Himself You have to step down from your human wisdom, and think spiritually. The resurrection of Christ is related to each Member of the divine Trinity. God the Father is said to have raised Christ from the dead (Psa. 16:10,11) The Scriptures also reveal that Christ raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19) a similar statement is made in John 10:17.18).
---Mark_V. on 12/2/11

Warwick, **He did not say "our Father**
This is a direct contradiction of the first words of the "Our Father "Prayer Mat.6.
"Which art(is) in heaven". He is standing in front of them saying the Father is in heaven.
Is this not a contradiction if He is also the "Father"
He said "I can ask my Father for 10 legions of angels" Why would he ask the Father if He himself was God?? It doesn't make sense!
Will you ever answer..immortality?
---1st_cliff on 12/2/11

Cliff, I see it differently. I accept neither JW or RC dogma. However I do believe some things they believe. But these things are where they hold to Scripture, not man's dogma.

Of course Jesus called the Father his Father. That is why He is called the Son of God. However unlike you and me He was not born. He does not say "our Father" but my Father and your Father. His relationship with the Father is totally different than ours.
---Warwick on 12/1/11

//Many in the past have written how they long to watch the wicked being tortured in fire. How they will enjoy their shreiks of agony.

The view was emphasized in Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy.

It is a wonder that Dante did was not executed as he had several popes & churchman in the fires of hell.
---lee1538 on 12/1/11

JESUS used parable to teach many moral lessons. If Hades which is the greek name for the burning place named after the Greek god Hades is going to be destroyed then it must be literal. But the hades as a place where the wicked and the righteous can talk to each other comed from wishful thinking.

Many in the past have written how they long to watch the wicked being tortured in fire. How they will enjoy their shreiks of agony. Do you wish to listen and watch the dead suffer for all eternity as a matter of entertainment?
---Samuel on 12/1/11

Micha, The Saints of the last 600 years were Catholic, you think for one second that they weren't biased?

Mark V, **The Father resurrected the physical body**?
Fundamentalists believe He had a "glorified" body, What then was actually resurrected?? (He couldn't walk through walls with His old body!)
Jesus always referred to the resurrection of the "DEAD" nowhere does it say "resurection of the body"!
Yes I read/study the bible!
---st_cliff on 12/1/11

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Warwick, Not everything JW is false,like you are not Catholic but believe much of Catholic dogma!
The Sanhedren called the disciples "ignorant and unlearned men" Yet Jesus told them "our"Father", also "your God and My God"
There wasn't a DD.or rocket scientist among them. He was not talking "over their heads" (or ours)
It was your father who was responsible for you being alive!
It's "our" Father who gives us everlasting life!
Yes Jesus Himself said He had a Father (and it wasn't Joseph)
---1st_cliff on 12/1/11

---Mark_Eaton on 12/1/11
Well Every spirit goes back to God. the spirit of the righteous and the wicked all go back to God.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go unto one place, all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

and because the dead have no ability to think Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.
the rich man and lazarous is a parable
---francis on 12/1/11

Cliff, though you have left the JW's you still see Scripture through the indoctrination you received. JW's have an anthropomorphic view of Scripture. They imagine we believe in 3 separate physical beings we call God. Whereas in reality we believe in God who is invisible spirit, the antithesis of man or superman. He is everywhere, all powerful, all seeing. Our God acts through 3 persons (not visible corporeal beings) but is 1 God. You need to find a way to be deprogrammed, and see what Scripture says.

When Jesus spoke of the Father He said my Father and your Father emphasizing the vastly different relationships. The Father is not our Father as He is Jesus Father.
---Warwick on 12/1/11

Cliff, Warwick might have a vision problem if he needs glasses but you have a spiritual problem, you need spiritual glassess. And I need to know how to spell. The Spirit of God in the incarnated Jesus body did not, I say again, die. His physical body, was like ours and did die. How hard is that to understand? When Jesus bowed His head at the Cross He gave up His Spirit to the Father. The Father later resurrected His physical body just as He will do with us. Have you not read the Bible?
---Mark_V. on 12/1/11

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So it was a future promise
---francis on 12/1/11

I think at issue here is two ideas. One, is there life after death for our bodies? and two, after death does out spirit continue on or does it sleep?

In looking at the Rich man and Lazarus story, both men are dead and buried. I believe this relates to their bodies. Yet both were present in Abraham's bosom. I believe this relates to their spirit.

If you do not believe this to be a true story, did Jesus lie? Jesus did not say this was a parable. He was telling this to Pharisees who believed in the afterlife, so did Jesus use a fable to illustrate a moral lesson to them?

I don't think Jesus needed to use fables to teach with. I believe this is a true story.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/1/11

Why change the comma in Luke 23:43 when all other translations throughout history into English did not.
Did we have someone on Christianet that has more understanding than the saints of the past 600 years?
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
---micha9344 on 12/1/11

Jesus did not to go paradise / heaven upon his death.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and [to] my God, and your God.

So it was a future promise
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
---francis on 12/1/11

Warwick, Some how I think satan keeps throwing sand in your eyes! I say to myself "how come he can't see it?"
Jesus said Jn.5.17.(NIV) "My Father is always at His work,and I too keep working"
Jesus is describing His/our Father ((He's not talking about Himself at that moment) Then He says "I too" meaning me ALSO . If you see "only one person here" you have a vision problem!
If Jesus keeps working and also the Father is working, are they not co-workers? especially if working on the same project like "creating"
I don't think it gets plainer than that! Do you?
Immortality ?????
---1st_cliff on 12/1/11

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The issue was not "today" but the promise "you will be with me". No one went to "paradise" So the promise had to be future!
---1st_cliff on 11/30/11

First, you have prejudice reading these verses. If you read this to a child, a child can make sense of it.

The issue of today is important. It makes no sense for Jesus to say to the thief "This day I say to you, you will be with me". The statement would not be said that way. If I asked you to phone me when you get home today, would you respond to me "Today I tell you, I will call you"? No. You would likely respond "I tell you, today I will call you".

In the same way Jesus responded to the thief.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/1/11

Cliff, John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 show The Son is Creator. That His being with the Father (which He obviously is, being 1 with the Father) means they are co-Creators, is assumption.

As you say the OT says YHVH is Creator while the NT says The Son is. As there are not 2 Creators we are left with the fact that the Son is Creator therefore YHVH! However the Father and the Holy Spirit are also YHVH, but the Son is Creator! If we were talking of man/superman that would make 3, however YHVH is spirit, not flesh. I believe we do not have the knowledge or intellect to comprehend God's 'nature' as He is totally outside anything we know. But The Son was made incarnate so man could see and relate to Him.
---Warwick on 12/1/11

1 cliff, I know my answer will do you no good but then again maybe it will.
You said,
"Mark, So "Today" meant that Jesus came into His Kingdom that day??
First day on the Throne He was dead?
Jesus did not ascend to heaven 'till 40 days after Crucifixion"

Cliff, you are talking of His physical body. I'm speaking about Spiritual matters Cliff. Jesus who is God in Spirit did not die, He committed His Spirit to the Father at the Cross. The Father resurrected His Physical body. But that only goes if you believe Jesus Christ is the true Son of God from all eternity. And I suppose you don't. When believers come to Christ, that Spirit lives in our hearts. And since He is God, He is Omnipresent.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/11

Warwick, The fact that you acknowledge that Jesus was "with" the Father indicates He was not "alone" in creating!
The Father may or may not have let his Son do all the creating ,but I doubt it because Jesus said "My father has kept "working" till now , and I keep working" Is a strong indication of "co-creation"
You doubt for a minute that YHWH was not the great architect???
Name of God? Stop in the name of the law! (does the law have a name?) It means "authority of"
In vain= in a worthless way!
---1st_cliff on 11/30/11

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Cliff, John 1:2,3 says Jesus was with God at the beginning and that He is Creator of everything created. No suggestion of co-Creator there. Colossians 1:16 says all things-visible, and invisible, in heaven and on earth were created by Him and for him. No hint of co-Creator there.

The point regarding John 20:28 is that in responce to Jesus' appearance 'Thomas said to him "My Lord and my God."' To this statement of faith Jesus replied that you have seen me and believed. Believed what" Exactly what the succinct words of Thomas convey that he now acknowledges Jesus as not only his Lord but his God, The God, as the Greek says.

As we do not know how to pronounce YHVH how can we use this name in vain?
---Warwick on 11/30/11

Mark, So "Today" meant that Jesus came into His Kingdom that day??
First day on the Throne He was dead?
Jesus did not ascend to heaven 'till 40 days after Crucifixion
, You're talking context? Truly I tell you, "this my dieing day" was part of the promise! The issue was not "today" but the promise "you will be with me" No one went to "paradise" (Persian word meaning garden,park,with trees=dictionary) that day! Did they!So the promise had to be future!
---1st_cliff on 11/30/11

So the comma goes rightfully "after" "today" making the promise"future"
---1st_cliff on 11/29/11

As I said, I am no Bible scholar. But, as I read the Bible I must pay attention to the context. The context of our verse in question is determined by the statement made by the thief. In the previous verse the thief states "Remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom".

In the reply of Jesus, He uses the word "TODAY" as an answer to the WHEN stated by the thief. It is not a reference to the time that the statement is made by Jesus. It is a direct answer made by Jesus to when He comes into His kingdom.

Therefore, the comma is correct when it is placed before the word TODAY.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/30/11

"The belief that the soul lives on after death is pagan mythology, not scriptual!" 1stcliff

Pagan mythology? Really? Seriously?

Matthew 10:28, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Wow! Jesus according to you is a pagan right? After all, Christ taught about ETERNAL life and death in the Gospels and you say it's not scriptural.

Well, good for you.
---christan on 11/29/11

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Warwick, Ex.6.3.God tells us what His real name is,the tetragramaton (YHWH)
The Talmud says something to the effect that the reason Jesus could perform miracles was that He knew the "exact" pronunciation of it!
Superstition down through the ages has clouded the right way ,so now it is substituted by Lord, God, Yahweh, Jehovah,Elohim and Adoni etc.
Jn.1.says the Logos was "with" hoTheos .
In English "with" doesn't mean "alone"! This agrees with Col.1.16 as co-creator, Father and Son how can you have a problem with that?
Define immortality as applied to Christ!
---1st_cliff on 11/30/11

Mark E, your right, I believe that no matter how you explain things to 1 Cliff, he will not see your way. He argues on the passage you gave in Luke, which is not even arguable, even I, who have very little education can see his mistake. Lets say the coma goes after today, it would mean that Jesus had to mention the day He was talking to him. Why would He have to mention that? It is rediculous. The comment "I tell you today" He couldn't be talking about telling them another day but that day, since He was speaking that day. The answer is that the coma has to be before today. All the other stuff he mentioned has nothing to do with the passage. More smoke screens.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/11

Cliff, we need to remember that God the Son alone took upon flesh. Jesus said "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father..." I do not believe He was speaking of a family resemblance. He was effectively saying that as God is invisible spirit, not flesh you cannot see Him. But you can see me, the very image of God, God incarnate. If He wasn't God why would He say seeing me is seeing the Father? Delusion, presumption?

I cannot see how you can read co-Creator into Colossains 1:16 "all things were created by him and for him." Shades of Nehemiah 10:6.

BTW you still haven't told me what God's correct Biblical name is!!!
---Warwick on 11/29/11

Mark Eaton, Back in the 1920s and 30s Will Rogers became a world wide celebrity, he said "all I know, I read in the papers"!
All I know, Mark, I read in the bible!
Jesus said to the thief "truly I tell you today you ....paradise"
Up 'till the 14th century there was no punctuation!
Jesus went to the grave "that day" (hardly paradise,huh?)
So the comma goes rightfully "after" "today" making the promise"future"
Placing it "after" today ,promotes the false (Pagan) idea that no one really dies!
Wages of sin is ??? Not life in some reincarnated form!
---1st_cliff on 11/29/11

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Yes the thief will go to Pardise at the resurection of the dead. The passage does speak of living with JESUS. When do we go to be JESUS? At the resurrection for when JESUS comes back to get us.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
---Samuel on 11/29/11

The belief that the soul lives on after death is pagan mythology ,not scriptual!
---1st_cliff on 11/29/11

Please help me with your understanding of this passage:

Luke 23:42-43 "And he was saying, 'Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom' And He said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise'".

Now. I am no Bible scholar, but it seems that Jesus told the thief that he would go to Paradise after death. And it is does not appear that the thief questioned it. Whether it be body or spirit, it does not appear to be symbolic.

If Jesus said it, it must be so.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/29/11

Christian, It's quite simple to explain, non of those scriptures that you cited was "hades"
You know what,Christian,the word soul (Nephesh in Hebrew,Psyche in Greek),is mentioned over 800 times in the bible. not even one time does it say immortal, deathless or never dieing!
The belief that the soul lives on after death is pagan mythology ,not scriptual!
---1st_cliff on 11/29/11

Cliff, rabbits were released on Australia's east coast and crossed the continent (c4,000km mostly inhospitable desert) in a few decades. Not one rabbit made the trip, but they got there!

Regarding the past no matter whether we believe in the Bible or evolution we were not there to see what happened. Unless God tells us we can only speculate. Evolutionists are in the same 'boat'!

Many animals were introduced to other places by humans ( Australian dingo is related to an Indian dog) others have arrived on vegetation mats. This has been seen recently. There is evidence ocean levels were lower in the past creating land-bridges, allowing animals to travel between now islands.

See 'The Answers Book' for a more detailed answer.
---Warwick on 11/29/11

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1stcliff, Luke 16:19-31 doctrine was not about burial but afterlife. Even after death, the rich man was trying to communicate with Abraham (who died in the flesh thousands of years ago). He may be dead in the flesh but his soul and spirit continues to be kept alive for eternal death.

No fire? Try and explain these verses:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41

"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:46

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15
---christan on 11/29/11

Christian, The NIV says "The rich man died and was buried"
Is that not plain enough??
Where do you imagine that people were buried in those days??
"He lifted up his eyes and sees..."? What can you see when you're dead? do you not know they don't function at death?? And through 6' of earth yet??

Please show me anywhere in scripture that there's fire in (Hades Gr. sheol Heb equivalent) none,zipo, zilch!
Now tell me I,m wrong!(or in a stupor)

---1st_cliff on 11/28/11

Warwick, Because as I said, It's a long way from Ararat.
Did the kangaroos swim to Australia?
Jn.14.8.9. No mystery,Relatives told me "Your father will never be dead as long as you're alive" Jesus was the image of the Father, so what need to see "HIM" when scripture says "No man can see me and live"Heb.1.3 says the same thing adding that Christ inherited His name (what has God ever "inherited"???
Col.1.16 That Jesus was co-creator agreeing with Jn.1.1-3
---1st_cliff on 11/28/11

Shir Part 2: There is many passages that speak of the predetermined will of God. The second example is the sale of Joseph into Egypt by his brothers. It was a wicked act on their part. When we trace it we find the source behind it all. God was the author. It also had its exact place in the divine plan. Joseph said later to his brothers,
"And now be not grieved nor angry with yourselves, that you sold me hither, For God did send me before you to preserve life...So now it wa not you that sent me hither, but God... And as for you, ye meant evil against me, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 45:5, 8, 50:20).
The evil the brothers did, God turned it for good. Many people were saved because of the power Joseph got by been sold
---Mark_V. on 11/28/11

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Mark maybe you could explain to us how you feel predestination and predetermination hold different meanings...
---JackB on 11/28/11

1st cliff, so if by your own account (which is exactly what it is), the rich man and Lazarus being buried was not the issue as written in Luke 16:19-31. In fact, there's not even a mention of burial in Luke's account. What was clearly written in Luke was Christ's teaching of where the rich man and Lazarus went to after their death on earth. One went to Hades and the other to Paradise. It's a spiritual place!

You are in real stupor about what was taught in Luke 16:19-31, talk about giving you a break and using the "spirit of sound mind". The Spirit of God is not of sound mind BUT of TRUTH!

And no one spoke and taught about Hell more than Jesus Christ.
---christan on 11/28/11

Shira, yes, is the answer to your question. The one's chosen from before the foundation of the world will be save, the others will not. What we have to understand with our own wisdom is how this works of God work.
One example is the death of Jesus. We are told
"Him (Christ) been delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23). From before the foundation of the world God determined that Jesus would die for our sins (1 Peter 1:20). Yet, the man who killed Him, did it out of their own evil motives. God did not make them kill Jesus, but predetermined they would. The actions of those man who killed Jesus, will be judge for what they did. They are responsible even though God predetermined it all.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/11

Cliff, you wrote "BTW Wang Wang and Funi are Giant pandas currently in Australia but are indiginous only to China, again creating problems with global flood!" Why does certain creatures being indiginous to a locality create problems for a global flood?

I would like an answer regarding John 14:8,9, Hebrews 1:3, Colossians 1:16, and Nehemiah 9:6.

I am still awaiting an answer regarding the correct Biblical name for God.
---Warwick on 11/27/11

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Christian, Obviously you are not that familiar with the "Rich man and Lazarus" parable.
If this is what you think happens at death, you are not using the "spirit of a sound mind"
The rich man is "buried" (1st clue) in hades (the grave) looks up and SEES?
This is literal?? give me a break!
---1st_cliff on 11/27/11

Jesus taught a lot of things that some Christians dont want to believe. Such as the dangers of losing faith and living like the world and being given the same reward as the wicked upon his return.
---JackB on 11/27/11

Shira: 'Do you believe some are predestined to go to hell?'

I FEEL (without being sure) that the NT SEEMS to support that more that the free will idea.

But at the same time, I do not actually like it!

So I avoid thinking about it, feeling that whatever is/was God's will will be done.

It has been a problem for the church for years.....

PS. I don't think that is the question posted here!
---Peter on 11/27/11

"Fact of the matter is no one goes anywhere at death, except in a little box buried in the ground...there to wait for a resurrection!" 1st cliff

Are you sure? I would suggest you read very carefully the account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in the Gospel of Luke 16:19-31 and re-convinced yourself that "no one goes anywhere at death".

If you are right than Jesus was teaching rubbish to all of us and we should not bother even reading the Holy Bible. But alas, I rather believe my Lord Jesus than you.
---christan on 11/27/11

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Scripture is pretty clear that Christ died for all men and the whole world.

The only way a person can deny that truth is to change the meanings of the words to fit their doctrine. Calvinists are very bad about that. Even those who claim to have educations in Hebrew and Greek still refuse to accept the meaning of the words in those languages.

Its just as scripture says. They follow men who tickle their ears with what they WANT to hear.
---JackB on 11/26/11

Markv, I didn't say you quoted anyone. I just ask a question. You still didn't answer my question. Do you believe some are predestined to go to hell? Do you believe some are predestined to go to heaven? That is what I am trying to find out.
---shira4368 on 11/26/11

Shira, First, I never quote Calvin in any of my answers, but present the Word of God as written. Concerning John 3:16, I believe that wholeheartly. Nothing wrong with the passage. Whosoever believes will be saved. Whosever does not believe will not be saved. Only those who believe by faith in the works of Christ and His resurrection will be saved. Jesus also said, "Unless one is born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven" ( John 3:5 ). Why? Because all descendants of Adam are already condemned, John 3:18, "He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already" they are already heading to hell for their rebellion against God.
---Mark_V. on 11/26/11

Markv, I am not asking this to be anything but honest. Do you think God will send those to hell that He has already chosen before they were born? while I like most of your answers, I see a little calvinism in some of your answers. Do you believe John 3:16? Do you believe anyone can be saved? Thanks
---shira4368 on 11/25/11

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"My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you," (Galatians 4:19) "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17) Jesus in us is sharing His very own blessedness of Heaven > "every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3, see also Ephesians 3:19, please (c: ). So, Heaven's very own has come into us to form in us. So, if we die before He returns, we will be with Heaven's Jesus in us, wherever our Father has Him in us stay (c:

By the way, if judgment is in Heaven, everyone will go to Heaven . . . for the day of judgment. "But who will stay?"
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/24/11

Fact of the matter is no one goes anywhere at death, except in a little box buried in the ground...there to wait for a resurrection!
The only thing leaving your body at death is your "breath" (pneuma) translated spirit!
---1st_cliff on 11/23/11

The god presented by many here is an impotent god. That is not the God of the Bible. Many today have the impression that God is a person of the same sort as we are, weak, inadequate, ineffective, a little pathetic. Obligated to man. But this is not the God of the Bible. Our life is a finite thing, it is limited in every direction, in space, in time, in knowledge, in power. But God is not so limited. He is eternal, infinite and almighty. He has us in His hands' we never have Him in ours. People need to get acquinted with the real God of the Bible and stop putting limits on the Creator. He is "El Shaddai" God Almighty. And all His actions illustrate the Omnipotence which this name proclaims.
---Mark_V. on 11/23/11

Jack, are you saying that believing Christ died for you, confessing him as your Lord and Savior and repenting of your sins arent the components taught in the Bible. Are you saying that no matter if you reject Christs work on the Cross you can still be in heaven, justified, to be glorified and abide with Him for eternity? I would like some clarification so I can understand your idea of salvation and interpret your comments a little clearer.
Thanks, 70x7
---Poppa_Bear on 11/23/11

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Jack, every time you stir the pot, you give us more reasons to bring out the Truth so that God can reveal His Word to others.
If God is sovereign, which He is, He could save the whole world if He so desired. No man has power over God. Second, we know many are going to hell because they are condemned already by God's curse. They are guilty of sinning against God.
"For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us (believers) who are being saved it is the power of God."
Third, "But God has revealed them to us (believers) through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep thing of God" Without the Spirit, no one can possibly know the things of God.
---Mark_V. on 11/23/11

Jack, thanks. Stir away! :)
---John.usa on 11/22/11

Lets stir the pot...

Col 1:19,20

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell, And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL things unto himself, by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, OR things in heaven.

Not only does Paul know its Gods will that all men be reconciled, Paul also knows it is Gods power working IN him to present every single man perfect in Jesus Christ (v.28,29)

For every 1 verse a Calvinist has, I can find 2 more to prove you have twisted Gods word.
---JackB on 11/22/11

Christian, you can accuse me of calling God a liar all you want if that makes you happy. But when Paul wrote in 1.Tim.2.4 that it is God's will that everyone be saved, and you say it is not his will, what does that make you? :)
---John.usa on 11/22/11

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John.usa - I assure you that Sovereign Election DOES NOT "encompasses the whole human race". For if it did according to you, God wouldn't have told Rebecca of her twins, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

And again, your understanding of 1 Timothy 4:10 is completely erroneous. You see the word "all" and you implicate it means the whole of mankind. Romans 9 will call you a fool for thinking otherwise when Paul clearly taught that God has created only two vessels of people - a vessel of honor and dishonor.

You may not realize this, but you are calling God a liar.
---christan on 11/21/11

I believe in sovereign election. I am included because it encompasses the whole human race. 1.Tim.4.10.
---John.usa on 11/21/11

"How do you know that you are one of those "covenanted ones", christan?" Cluny

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

"I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."
Matthew 11:25,27

You believe in Sovereign election without doubt?
---christan on 11/21/11

No one but the Christian covenanted in Jesus Christ will be going to heaven. Period.
---christan on 11/20/
Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else EXCUSING one another,
Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Some people who have never heard of God / Christ will be in heaven
---francis on 11/21/11

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\\No one but the Christian covenanted in Jesus Christ will be going to heaven. Period.
---christan on 11/20/11\\

How do you know that you are one of those "covenanted ones", christan?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/21/11

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

No one but the Christian covenanted in Jesus Christ will be going to heaven. Period.
---christan on 11/20/11

Those who say do you get there? fly, float, walk, carried etc..
---1st_cliff on 11/20/11

The bible says we know King David is asleep. Besides in Revelation we learn we will live on the new earth, not in heaven.
---Kellie on 11/20/11

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Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life..,
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another, though my reins be consumed within me.
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,.. and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

---francis on 11/20/11

Yes,IF their name is written in the Lamb's book of life.
---Reba on 11/19/11

My guess is that most people will go to purgatory when they die. As for me, I probably won't even make it there. :)
---John.usa on 11/19/11

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