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Do We Decide Salvation

Does God choose sinners to be saved and then provide for their salvation? Or, does God provide a way of salvation that sinners must choose for themselves? In short, is salvation our decision or God's?

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 ---lee1538 on 11/25/11
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God Almighty is Savior. You either believe in His Word or you dont.
The Elect where chosen before the foundation of this world for a purpose-set aside.
Those who are not of the election-have a choice. Christ came for the lost sheep.
-Angels sang in harmony
-then Division
Must be born from above
-Elect stood- are loved-chosen for a purpose.
Others must choose

Are all from the election?
Where they created to be chosen?
Where they Formed from clay to chose?
Only those not chosen before-substance was formed
Jn18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight...
In time past,

They already-did.
---char on 12/1/11

James, you want to include the works of man no matter what anyone tells you. How can a person respond if God does not enable him to respond? How does a person commit his life to Christ? By responding. If he cannot respond with words because he is not able, he doesn't have to speak. It changes nothing. You don't have to do anything to be saved.
But you will respond because you want to respond. No one makes you.
You are trying to look for loop-holes anyway you can.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/11

James, another thing I wanted to mention concerning "responding" is, the difference between the visible Church and the invisible Church. The visible church is mixed tares and wheat. Here you profess faith, and be baptize, man's response. The Spiritual invisible Church there is no works of man. It is made up of the Elect, chosen by God who have the Holy Spirit and or baptized by God into one body in Christ. This is all the work of God. In order to be in the Invisible Church of Christ a person needs to be born of the Spirit by God period.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/11

And guess how you respond to God? by coming to Christ and asking for forgiveness. All you did was respond to what God had done. You can do nothing but respond.\\
---Mark_V. on 11/30/11

You still have human effort in there, Mark V.

Responding, asking, etc are all human effort. So you have just as much works salvation as those whom you accuse of teaching works salvation.

When God convicts us, enlightens us, and convinces us of the truth, it is over. By the time you get around to responding, you're too late.

God already did it.

There isn't anything in scripture that says we have any work to do, Mark.

Whether you call it work or responding, there is no diffeernce. It's still effort
---James_L on 11/30/11

"All you did was respond to what God had done. You can do nothing but respond." MarkV


MarkV, hope you don't mind if I add to your excellent explanation to Gordon. What you explained is what is known as the "grace of God". Many have no idea what the "grace of God" really means, but Paul elegantly declared, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

That is, "grace" is the wonderful work that belongs only to God. And according to the Scripture above, only those elected by Him will He demonstrate this "grace" as you have explained to Gordon.
---christan on 11/30/11

Gordon, I just don't understand what is so hard about this one topic. Forget your prior bias and just think for a minute.
God makes you alive to Christ.
God give you a new heart.
God convicts you of your rebellion against Him.
God gives you faith to believe in Christ.
And guess how you respond to God? by coming to Christ and asking for forgiveness. All you did was respond to what God had done. You can do nothing but respond. And what else? God Himself says, "And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good, but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me." No losing salvation.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/11

Elder got you, going back I see your point.
For that I am very sorry, forgive me.

When michael_e said: accept it or reject it, it is your choice!
What was meant was, if that which has been damned by God could choose.
Well then it would not be damn, would it? So if it wants a choice.
Accepting it, would not be a bad one. But then it was never damn to begin with.
I have no love lost for that!

Man was made for God. What I said was not meant for man.
It was meant for that which is in man. That which thinks it has a choice.
It knows what I mean. It knows me very well.
May God bless you!
---TheSeg on 11/30/11

//But why do you think your opponents have just as many scriptures to support their view?

If you read the history books as 'the Early Church and the End of the World' by Gary Demar or 'the History of Christain Thought' by Jonathan Hill, you would see that much in theological beliefs followed an evolutionary line of thinking.

I suppose that as knowledge of Scripture increased as well as its critics, Christians of today have changed much in their thinking.

Also diminished control by the church - the fear of hell, of purgatory, etc. have contributed much in our understanding of doctrine.
---lee1538 on 11/30/11

Seg my response/question is in reference to the following,

"Christ, did the work(finished work of the Cross)
Accept it or reject, its your choice."

"michael_e, I say if they want a choice.
That a d***** good one!
God bless"
I feel that your choice of the "slang word" used in this context is improper. I don't remember you using slang like this any other time. Maybe I don't understand what you were trying to say.
God Bless!
---Elder on 11/30/11

MarkV, Yes, of course GOD has to change one's heart to believe, trust and follow HIM. But, a person must first choose to want to have a new heart. Yes, that comes from GOD, but, the person has to choose. at one time or another, that he or she wants to follow and believe and trust in GOD. They have to be willing to acknowledge their sin. And, they must be willing to REPENT of their sin and follow the Path of Holiness which leads to Eternal Life. One does not have Eternal Life until they get to Heaven. Once one gets to Heaven, they will never be able to lose their Eternal Life in Heaven. I know you disagree with at least MOST of what I just now said, okay?
---Gordon on 11/30/11

//There are very few people who even consider the possibility that their 500 year old doctrine could be in error.

But why do you think your opponents have just as many scriptures to support their view?
Yes, I believe some of the dominant doctrines taught church theologians are not in compliance to Scripture but reflect the current view of their times. One such doctrine is the Sabbath, I do not believe Scripture tells us that we need observe any day as holy (Romans 14:5-6), another is tithing as I do believe the tithe was designed for the support of the Levitical priesthood and the Temple.

I do believe what is necessary for us to believe for our salvation has consistently been taught according to scripture.
---lee1538 on 11/30/11

If a plant is alive and healthy, sunlight blesses that plant and makes it grow more. But if the plant has bad roots, the same loving sunshine will dry and harden that plant. It's not the sun's fault that the plant gets harder and harder.

Our Potter makes each vessel > "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Romans 9:21) After a potter makes something from clay, he or she does judge what he or she has made, and does judge about what it is made for . . . a drinking cup is for water, and an ash tray is for keeping messy stuff away from us. So, there is the love purpose for each vessel (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/30/11

Elder, you tell me.
If you dont believe it is then I, from the bottom of my heart, will apologies!

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But then believe this too!
If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea, and it should obey you.
God Bless!
---TheSeg on 11/30/11

James, Gordon, and all who believe that a lost person can originate the love of Christ in his heart out of their own will, are only deceiving themselves. God has to change the heart. Under the New Covenant first given to Israel God said,
"Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stoney heart of flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, "that they may walk in My statues, and keep My judgments and do them, and they shall be My people and I will be their God"
Why would He give them a new heart if they could originate the love of Christ on their own? Why tells us anything, if lost man do all that on their own? You guys will do anything to take credit for your salvation.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/11

"So GOD allowed (ALLOWED) his heart to get so hardened..." Gordon

Allowed? What's there to allow when God declares that it's Him who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Please read these verses in Exodus below and you'll know you make no sense at all,

4:21 "...see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."

7:3 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart,", 13 "And He hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them, as the LORD had said."

Go find me a single verse that says God "allowed his heart to get so hardened" in this account.
---christan on 11/29/11

Seg do you really believe that your response is a Christ-like reply?
---Elder on 11/29/11

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lee, I hate to disappoint you. Tolerance should only be applied when someone wants to know the Truth and are willing to listen but when they come against the Word of God, are you to say we must tolerate the lies he speaks?

As for being "less condemning", it's not I who condemn but the very words they speak against the Word, they condemn themselves. "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matthew 12:37

Not everyone who say they are a Christian are we to believe. John admonished, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1
---christan on 11/29/11

James, I thought you were going to discuss Scripture. If you cannot contain yourself from doing that then don't answer. I have quoted Scripture to you, and nothing else. Not one time have I mentioned Calvin or Arminias. Your bias believes have blinded you and trapped you from the Truth of Scripture.
No where does Scripture teach man can save himself if he wants to or not. He has a choice and before he chooses, he needs to have true faith in Christ works, and that only comes from God. Otherwise he remains lost. You can argue all you want, and speak about how you don't like it, but you arguments are with God and His Word.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/11

michael_e, I say if they want a choice.
That a damned good one!
God bless
---TheSeg on 11/29/11

Christ, did the work(finished work of the Cross)
Accept it or reject, its your choice.
---michael_e on 11/29/11

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I have found many 1500 year doctrines to be in error when reading what the Bible actually says. So finding a 500 year old one wrong is no problem.

Calvanist do ignore many scriptures. Arminian not so many. The problem is often how they say it.

GOD calls, empowers through the HOLY SPIRIT. The HOLY SPIRIT convicts the world of sin. Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Not just some. When we stop fighting we believe.
---Samuel on 11/29/11

Lee, Mark, Christan,

There are very few people who even consider the possibility that their 500 year old doctrine could be in error.

But why do you think your opponents have just as many scriptures to support their view?

You are simply ignoring half of scripture, while your opponents ignore the other half.

Both sides wish to make the gospel message about "doing" something raher than someone to believe in. The only difference is that you say God regenerates a man before man "does" the work. Slick, men. Slick.

You aren't fooling me, guys. Your doctrine is just as "works based" as any other. You just dance a little faster, that's all
---James_L on 11/29/11

Mark_V. on 11/29/11 (about my comment on the Pelagian/Augustinian).

Somehow, while it seems clear that God must decide, somewhere in my heart I feel that people should be condemned only for what they decided (i.e. not to beleive in Jesus).

Sorry if it it a stupid comment, probably it is, but it is concern somethings.

Of course, I tell myself 'God knows this, Peter, you don't!'

But I wonder if you can enlighten me a bit more

Thanks in advance
---Peter on 11/29/11

//Calling yourself a Christian, yet you hate the very idea that God has already chosen before the foundations of the world,...

We really should be more tolerant and less condemning of those who are still on the bottom of the spiritual learning curve we were once on when we became babes in Christ.

The fact is there are those who do believe but simply are determined not to surrender all of what they are to the Lord.

As Christians grow in Christ, they begin more and more to simply accept what the Lord tells us in scripture, thro our understanding may be somewhat lacking.
---lee1538 on 11/29/11

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Lee, I believe you made a mistake, you said,
"Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some"
There was no Hymenaeus or Philetus present. That's not what the passages says. It states,
" And their message (those prophaning and using Idle babblings v. 16) will spread like cancer, Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that sort" Paul was talking to believers to be deligent to present themselves approved to God (v.15). To not be like the Hymenaeus and Philetusians, for they were of that sort. And not do what those others were doing. In other words reframe from iniguity, babbling and ungodliness .
---Mark_V. on 11/29/11

Cristian, The evil Pharaoh in the days of Moses already made up his mind to oppose GOD. GOD did not take, let's say, a heart that "would have responded co-operatively with the LORD" and then, "turn that pleasing heart into a stubborn, evil hard-heart" of Pharaoh. NO. Pharaoh was already determined to reject GOD. So GOD allowed (ALLOWED) his heart to get so hardened, to the point where he would not repent. And, in doing so, GOD used that opportunity of Pharaoh's hardened heart to show case HIS mighty and miraculous Powers that finally broke the Pharaoh temporarily enough to let GOD's people go. So that way, at Judgment Day, Pharaoh has no one to blame but himself!! He will not be able to say "GOD, YOU made me do it! NO.
---Gordon on 11/29/11

Mark v,
You err when you try to look at Romans 9 apart from the surrounding chapters. 8:29-30 is where predestination is mentioned. So let's understand the context.

Verse 17 says the we are joint heirs with Christ IF we suffer with Him

Verses 35-36 ask what will separate us from the love of God - hardship, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril, sword. These are all examples of SUFFERING.

Verses 38-39, in that same context of suffering, say that NOTHING can separate us from God's love. Though we may suffer, God Still Loves Us. And predestination is in the middle of that context.

If God foreknew you as an heir, then He has elected you to suffer.

Context. Mark. Context.
---James_L on 11/29/11

Mark V (part 2)

In Romans 9, Paul is still in the same context. Verse 8 says "the children of the promise are counted as descendants"

He is talking about HEIRS. Jacob and Esau were Isaac's sons. Which one became the heir? JACOB. God had already chosen that the younger one would be Isaac's heir. Go read it in Genesis.

It is nothing less than pride to hold on so tight to a false context

Read Romans 10, and compare the statements to Matthew 10. Confessing, enduring, saved, etc. And Jesus is clearly in the context of SUFFERING in Matt 10.

Compare to Philippians 2:8-14 "I have suffered all things...IN ORDER THAT I MIGHT GAIN CHRIST....I Press On Toward The Goal For The PRIZE."
---James_L on 11/29/11

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Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless My Father who sent Me draws him," in John 6:44. Because in sin we were "dead", not alive in love to choose what is right > "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins," (Ephesians 2:1) We were puppets and robots, copy-catting what this world's dictatorial culture demands, driven by dominating and dictatorial passions and angry reacting and staying hurt and unforgiving.

We were clay, though, in our Potter's hands > Romans 9:21 > and our Father made us alive in His love so now we make loving choices. And in His love, in sharing with our Potter in His love (Romans 5:5) we cleanse ourselves of what is dishonorable.
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/29/11

James, your arguments are wrong. Your arguing with what God said. His word. You don't agree, great, but don't say that Christan is wrong, his right.
In the passages in Romans 9:10, you can see clearly, if a person is not blind, that everything done is by the will of God. Two children are born, before they even do good or bad, "That the purpose of God according to "election" might stand, not of works but "of Him who calls" it was said to her 'The older shall serve the younger" As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esaau I have hated" God had made a choice already. Before they did anything in life. For what reason? "that the purpose of God according to election might stand.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/11

MarkV - I think that verse 2:19-20 really refers to those who would name the Lord that they should depart from iniquiity. (2:19b)

Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some."

Whether they were true believers or not, their usefulness is in doubt. There is really no guarantee that Christians will not fall into heresy.
---lee1538 on 11/29/11

Lee, hello brother, forgive me for responding to you. I had a question, when you gave 2 Tim 2:20 you are not suggesting that the vessels of dishonor can clean themselves, or you? Because that is not what the passage is saying. Since (v.19) speaks of those who are His, and named the name of the Lord, that means only believers here. They were to depart from iniquity.
So when He says in (v. 21) "Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master." If he doesn't depart from iniquity, what use is he for the Lord? Those are the same warnings we are given throughout the New Testament to all believers, keep from iniquity, do not sin, don't do warnings.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/11

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James Part 2: The question is, 'when will you stop rejecting the Truth of God's word or may I say, interpreting the passages by changing their meaning?" You know what predestination means. Pre "before" destine "where you are going"
God who is Almighty and knows all, knows where you are going, heaven or hell. He is not waiting to get new imformation He did not know. Or waiting to see if you will change you mind or not. If you think that way, then the god you know is not the one from Scripture, for He says,
"For I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them" (Ezek. 11:5).
He is aquainted with every detail in the life of every being in heaven and in the earth, and in hell.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/11

"...he Scripture repeatedly states that all are accountable for what we do." lee1538"

Precisely. This is known as the Sovereignty of God. Multitudes cannot wrap their mind around this. Eg, the death of Christ was predestined by God as declared in Acts 4:27,28

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Yet Peter declared, "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Acts 4:30

Everyone will be held accountable for Christ's death.
---christan on 11/29/11

O JamesL, you claim to be a Christian and yet you cannot harken onto the Words of the Bible. I assure you, take the Holy Bible to a unbeliever or even to an English major and ask him/she to read the very chapter of Romans 9. Even a twelve year old will tell you the same thing. But that does not mean they will believe what is written in the Bible - just like you.

Calling yourself a Christian, yet you hate the very idea that God has already chosen before the foundations of the world, "...neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" even when it's written in the Bible

Such behavior like yours, Jesus simply declares, HYPOCRITE!
---christan on 11/29/11

when will you ever stop using Romans 9 out of context? There is a context, you know.

Paul spoke of man's hopelesness and God's grace in chapters 1-4. And Then He Was Finished Talking About Heven And Hell.

Romans 9 context starts in chapter 8 and goes through chapter 11. It speaks of an inheritance, by enduring suffering through faith.

And what God has predestined is that anyone He foreknew as an heir will suffer, and thereby be conformed to the image of Christ.

He has not chosen anyone to go to heaven or hell. Stop usurping the whole bible in favor of a poor understanding of one chapter
---James_L on 11/29/11

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christan //Robots don't go to hell, predestined wicked man will...
While God will do whatever He wishes for His glory, the Scripture repeatedly states that all are accountable for what we do. Romans 14:12

If we are obedient to His will, then we can only expect the very best from God.

2 Tim. 2:20f Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
---lee1538 on 11/29/11

"God does not program anyone like a robot, or re-program them." JamesL

You think the soul and spirit of the man is manufactured in Silicon Valley? Think again! God declared,

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee..." Romans 9:17, Such wicked people, Scripture declares are "...the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. Romans 9:22, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief..." Romans 11:32

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

Robots don't go to hell, predestined wicked man will...
---christan on 11/29/11

Peter, you said,
"The ancient Pelagian / Augustinian dispute.
If the fathers of Church argues over this for years, how do we expect to solve it in 75 blog posts!?"

Yes Peter, they did argue this point. The reason was because the Church wanted salvation by works of the law. And those who faught against works, from within the Church, wanted the Church to see that salvation was by the grace of God only. All the work is of God. Sinful man cannot created in his heart the love of Christ in order to commit His heart to the Lord.
The Holy Spirit has to give him a new heart. And without that new heart, he will always hate and many times blaspheme the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/11

Samuel, I agree with your point against Calvinists. God does not program anyone like a robot, or re-program them.

But, in order to settle the issue of choice, we must first agree with scripture about what exactly is the gospel, and how to apprehend God's grace.

Scripture is very clear that one must simply believe a promise (Rom 4:21-25).

That, though, is not something which can be decided, or chosen.

When have you ever decided to believe something? Never. It is not humanly possible.

Faith is not active, like we excercise faith. It's passive.

In other words, we don't "do" faith, it happens to us
---James_L on 11/28/11

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If all people are "equal", would we not all make the same good or bad choice??

He has respect for Jesus > Romans 8:29.

"God gave the increase" (in 1 Corinthians 3:6)

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13)

They became more obedient even in Paul's absence, because God gives increase to our obedience. The Holy Spirit is the only Spirit of true obedience. He works our willing that God really wants (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/28/11

I have no problem James with your point about the HOLY SPIRIT does the work and we must just stop rejecting. I see that as simply saying that GOD gives us the power of choice in another way. In fact I think it is an excellent way of saying it.

Those who believe in Calvin howerver says GOD forces some to believe and just chooses to send others to hell. Because he does not want or died to save everyone.
---Samuel on 11/28/11

What am I saying? You got me!
But hear me out. I take you to a mountain that has a road leading to a 200 ft cliff. I can tell you at the end of this road, you will meet God. 100%! Some will say, what a stupid man. Some will walk down the road and not see anything. Some will walk down and say WOW. But how many will take that extra step and believe.

Now, before you go following me down any roads. Remember what Christ said!
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe it not!
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
---TheSeg on 11/28/11


now 74 blog posts, thanks to the one you wasted by not contributing anything.

There's a way to reconcile the issue, but hardly anyone will even consider it because it doesn't fit their preconceived ideas.

The Holy Spirit does all the work in salvation - convict, elnighten, and then convince of us the truth of the gospel, giving us faith. We cannot choose to believe something, we must be convinced.

But, just as a dead soldier's wife may refuse to believe her husband is dead, even in the face of evidence, we most assuredly can refuse to be convinced of the truth.

We have a responsibility, but not to "choose" or "decide" or "accept" anything. We simply STOP rejecting.
---James_L on 11/28/11

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I know the way it sounds, when you read it from the bible.
But, why dont you stop for a minute, take the time to hear the words coming out of your mouth.
I am not trying to disrespect anyone. But, what you are really telling yourselves.
Is man can refuse God!

You seem to think because someone says there is no God. There is no God!
Because someone says I dont, I cant, I will not too! That this is ok with God!
You think because you read The Revelation of Jesus Christ!
You understand God! God does not come out of a book.
God come out of your heart.

If God is in your heart, hear ye him!
God blessed you
---TheSeg on 11/28/11

God provided the way to our salvation,Jesus as the lamb of sacrifice,and he choose all sinners to have the chance to accept Christ as savior and Lord. He didn't chose each person he prefered to be saved,that would be a respecter of persons,and the Bible teaches God is no respecter of persons. After we choose Christ,repent of sins,God gives his power to his people not only through prayer but the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Christ told the Apostles to wait for the Gift of the Holy Ghost and they received in Acts what God sent to empower and equip them for service to God. The person who knows the Bible,stays in the Word,prays,praises,and worships God is the person who knows how,through the Word and God's power to resist the Devil.
---Darlene_1 on 11/27/11

Yes, the Bible says to "choose". And Paul says "work out your own salvation," in Philippians 2:12. So, there is work that we are commanded to do. But > "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being of ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:5) So, our obedience and willingness is thanks to God, not to ourselves, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13) Jesus spoke for the air and sea to be still, and God made it happen. Like this, we are commanded to choose, and God shares with us His obedient Spirit bringing all He means by His word > Isaiah 55:11.
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/27/11

The ancient Pelagian / Augustinian dispute.

If the fathers of Church argues over this for years, how do we expect to solve it in 75 blog posts!?
---Peter on 11/27/11

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francis//The verses tell me that we cannot save ourselves as it is an act of God alone.

But we must want to be saved.
God will not save anyone against their will.
Very true as God cannot command anyone to love Him and that is what He seeks of His creation.

I once asked the Lord why I was not saved until my Junior year of college and He brought to mind an event when I was only 13. I could not at that time submit myself to Him.

However, we have to agree salvation is offered to us only by invitation which we may refuse or accept.

If we accept we are born again and sealed by His Spirit. John 3:3,7, Eph.1:13,4:30.
---lee1538 on 11/27/11

EPHESIANS 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:" 12 "That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ."

How can anyone after reading this even contemplate that man has a part to play in their salvation? Salvation is 100% ALL OF GOD - the sinner inherits eternal life because God has already predestined him that he will put his trust in Jesus Christ - and this is "after the counsel of His own will."

Where's your free-will to trust Christ being taught here?
---christan on 11/27/11

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

The scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
---TheSeg on 11/27/11

The verses tell me that we cannot save ourselves as it is an act of God alone.
---lee1538 on 11/26/11

But we must want to be saved.
God will not save anyone against their will.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YE THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE, whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
---francis on 11/26/11

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Matthew 19:25-26 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

The verses tell me that we cannot save ourselves as it is an act of God alone.
---lee1538 on 11/26/11

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

This one!
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

And this one.
Ye judge after the flesh, I judge no man.

And who can believe this
---TheSeg on 11/26/11

Freewill means freedom of choice, the freedom to choose Christ or reject Christ, else God would be unjust in judging and condemning them whom reject his Salvation.
---Eloy on 11/26/11

the real question here is God sovereign or is man.
this debate has gone on for centuries and will go on and on till Jesus returns and sets things right.
Scripture says in context God chose who is saved from the foundation of the world because he loves them. I don't claim to understand the mind of GOD however I must believe in predestination even if my finite mind does not understand it or think it is fair.
---Willow on 11/26/11

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God knocks on individuals hearts door. It's up to the individual accept or reject the Only Salvation God has to offer, Acts 2 v 38, The Very Same as The Early Church. There is No other salvation of God outside from Acts 2 v 38.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 11/26/11

yes and no.
First off Jesus is that salvation and only salvation.
God wants all to be saved. "For God so loved the world..." not "only a part of the world." However because God is outside of time he knows if we (who is in time) will choose him or not "narrow path or wide path". Roman 9-11 is about predistination which is still true because it is God's word. It does show how helpless we are to choosing God.
---Scott1 on 11/26/11

Moses was given the law and yet Christ said:
If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Is it true that everyone is guilty before God?
Makes me think are the angels in heaven guilty before God?

Even Christ said:
Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

When you have kids, where do you keep the things that are dangerous?
Out of their reach, right.

Well the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
But sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
So what Im saying is Luk_12:26
---TheSeg on 11/26/11

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (Romans 9:16) So, the credit and thanks for our good choice is to God who alone is good > Jesus says, "No one is good but One, that is, God." (in Luke 18:19) "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17) So, the glory and "thanks" are to God, who delivered us from having "desperately wicked" hearts (Jeremiah 17:9), so that then "from the heart" we obeyed.

We could not die right for our own sins, because we were "slaves of sin" . . . not free in our wills, but "slaves".
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/26/11

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The Decision of Salvation involves BOTH parties. GOD and man. The BIBLE makes these two Declarations that GOD is willing that none perish (II PETER 3:9), and, GOD is no respector of persons (ROMANS 2:11, EPHESIANS 6:9 and I PETER 1:17). When you add up these Verses, they indicate that GOD offers Salvation to ALL. Not just to a select "chosen". But, the ones who choose to receive Salvation BECOME GOD's "Chosen". GOD makes the Offer, then, each man chooses for himself.
---Gordon on 11/26/11

How long will it be before both sides realize they are as wrong as wrong can be?

To the Arminian:
As long as you keep believing that we must DO something to be saved, then you will always be in error. Believing the gospel is ALL that is required, and that's something you can't decide to do. It happens TO you.

To the Calvinist:
Scripture does suppport the teaching of man's responsibility in salvation - to not refuse the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Only God can convince someone of the truth. But some suppress the truth and refuse to beleve it. And God has not decided who will believe anything. His Spirit convicts the world of sin
---James_L on 11/26/11

"Is salvation our decision or God's?"
"Salvation belongs to the LORD. The salvation of the righteous is from the LORD, I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior." Therefore "Look to Me, and be saved, For I am God, and there is no other. You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:" Remember this "I have chosen you out of the world. So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord." For "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
---joseph on 11/26/11

Remember that God the Father knew the answer to every choice any person would ever take and offers of his grace are only offered to those he knew would accept his sons message. Christs death was the necessary price for Gods adopted children to move from their previous family into Gods family See Romans Ch 8 [look up Roman Adoption, that is what is happening]

Christ died for the elect only that is made clear in John Ch 17, Christ said he was not concerned about the world but only those that his Father had given him.

Satan invented Free Will when he conceded himself Gods equal. If you advocate Free Will you are in rebellion against God and his plan for his adopted children.
---Blogger9211 on 11/26/11

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God has PREDESTINES that all who accpt him will be saved. It is up to you whether or not you want to be saved. God will notsave anyone againsttheir will.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
---francis on 11/25/11

So Grace is totally irresitable. Then GOD when he said that he wants all to be saved must save everyone. For GOD is not willing that any should perish.

Those who follow the teachings of Calvin state that GOD choose to have some people not be saved even though the Bible states differently so that GOD can torture people in hell for all eternity.

But the wicked die in hell and cease to exist. GOD gave free will. Knowing is not forcing.
---Samuel on 11/25/11

blogger 9211, here we go again. God gave man free will. Anyone who wants to be saved can be saved. so simple with a simple well known verse. John 3:16
---shira4368 on 11/25/11

John 3:16 says it all. If God decided who would be saved, Jesus would not have had to die on the cross for our sins.
---KarenD on 11/25/11

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From mans perspective, we do choose. When we came to Christ, we made a decision, we made the good confession and were born again according to His promises and we believed the way of salvation. Where the Spirit worked this in us is Gods mystery, convicting us of our sins, revealing our need for a Savior, granting us a deep hunger to be cleansed, and intimately know Him. This coin has two sides. Looking up to God man hears, For so whoever believes in Him shall not parish, but have eternal life. God looking down says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, I have ordained you. Why does there have to be one perspective when there are two parties, this isnt how we would expect our everyday relationships to be.
---Poppa_Bear on 11/25/11

Praise the Lord what Bogger9211 posted is in line with those that know Biblical doctrine, however, those that object to the sovereignty of God are often damned as Calvinists.
---lee1538 on 11/25/11

First, God our Father has chosen Jesus His Son who is so pleasing to Him. And His choice is to have many children who are like Jesus (Romans 8:29). How much time do we spend choosing to be like Jesus, in order to please God? I would say that the right choosing has started with God and is coming from Him. "For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:36)
---Bill_willa6989 on 11/25/11

Is this a trick question or what? Any Christian who knows anything about the Faith knows that Christ died for man's salvation. God created man in his image (free will) and man freely chooses to align himself with God or not
---Big_O on 11/25/11

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God alone has decided who will be saved. Those people are delineated in 1.Tim.4:10.
---John.usa on 11/25/11

\\God the Father alone has selected who will be saved prior to the start of the creation process billions of years ago\\

In other words, God took eons of time just to make people with the intention of damning them to eternal punishment.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/25/11

God the Father alone has selected who will be saved prior to the start of the creation process billions of years ago. As he knew who would and would not accept his Son Yashua anyone who would waffle was eliminated from the list to be members of the family of God. Salvation is clearly by invitation only and an offer of Gods Grace is totally irresistible.
---Blogger9211 on 11/25/11

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