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Spirit Died At The Fall

Some say man's spirit died at the fall, the result of sin. Some believe the Holy Spirit brought to life again the spirit of man before receiving Christ, called rebirth, before our conscience was purged by the Blood of Jesus Christ. Is that scriptural?

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 ---kathr4453 on 12/11/11
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Actually Christan, I believe that word is humility.

Hes not so arrogant and proud that he claims to know everything and has closed his heart off to any further inspiration. Nor does he foolishly believe that God handpicked him out of everyone else on earth to save him as though God loves him more than the rest.

Maybe you two could use a does of humility yourself.

Seems to me youre just upset that someone else agrees with Kathr. Its not surprising since she stands for the whole word of God and not just a couple dozen verses.
---JackB on 12/17/11

Paul murdered before his salvation, as did moses, before God called him. You forgot Judas????.

Under the NEW Covenant, God said I will put MY SPIRIT in you and cause you to walk in my statutes.

This is exactly why Paul can say Murderers, liars etc will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

The Gospell according to the MYSTERY is CHRIST IN YOU,and CHRIST IN YOU does not murder.

No OT Saint Had Christ in them, since that MYSTERY was not revealed or even available in the OT. THAT mystery and truth came WITH Jesus Death and resurrection life.

Those Baptized into HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION, are not raised up murderers, but a NEW CREATION.

Those who walk in the spirit don't give way to their murderous flesh.
---kathr4453 on 12/17/11

Christan, You don't honestly believe you can continue in sin without change? You think conviction is just saying..."We are all sinners so what?"

It appears the Doctrine of the CROSS is something Calvin failed to teach you, but then again, he couldn't teach anything he didn't know himself.

Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound? GOD FORBID

I am crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live but Christ who lives IN ME, and the Life that I NOW life in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.

You continue to ARGUE this truth, and people need to KNOW you all do not believe in the Gospel according to scripture.
---kathr4453 on 12/17/11

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Calvinists believe the preaching of the CROSS is foolishness, and continue to argue, call names and spit in the face and SCOFF in their arrogance anyone who PREACHES the CROSS.

The ABSOLUTE heart and soul of GRACE is Galatians 2:20-21.
Galatians 5:24, 1st Peter 4:1, Ephesians 1:4( THE WHOLE VERSE),


If calvinists are saved, they are nothing more than 1st corinthians carnal baby christians at minimum.
---kathr4453 on 12/17/11

"No Elect is deceived into believing a MURDERER was elect. NO MURDERERS will enter the Kingdom of God." kathr

- Moses murdered
- David murdered and committed adultery with Uriah's wife
- Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines
- one of the thief on the cross who was a criminal
- Saul (aka Paul) murdered and persecuted Christians

So, by your self-righteous statement you made above, are the names I've just mentioned above in heaven or hell? They should all be in hell, right, according to you?

Once and for all, get over the hump of John Calvin, he too was a sinner like you and I. Or do you see yourself as one who's not a murderer and is deserving of a place in heaven?

Is that grace?
---christan on 12/16/11

Mark Eaton, do you know what is the meaning of hypocrisy? Let me help define it for you. First, in your false humility you claim,
"I have personally found the more I study God's word, the less I seem to know"

and later on after being bombarded by replies, you reply, "It does not, it cannot. Now. perhaps having seen this, can you accept that the word "death" may be used in more ways than one?"

Suddenly you're a theologian again after professing, "the less I seem to know".

This is hypocrisy at the highest level just you know.
---christan on 12/16/11

Now. perhaps having seen this, can you accept that the word "death" may be used in more ways than one?
---Mark_Eaton on 12/16/11

This also applies to the word dead. A man "dead" in sin and trespasses can still repent much to their misunderstanding. Jesus proved this in the parable of the prodigal son. His father MET him half way ONLY after he repented and wanted to come home.
---JackB on 12/16/11

The Elect will never be deceived believing faith is a WORK. The Elect believe God's word that faith is NOT a work, but it means to trust and believe.

Romans 9:32
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone,
No one is saying anything concerning works of the LAW for salvation.

Faith is opposite of WORKS OF THE LAW!

No Elect is deceived into believing a MURDERER was elect. NO MURDERERS will enter the Kingdom of God.

Calvin MURDERED after professing faith in Christ.

Christ in you DOES NOT MURDER no matter what the circumstances of life are, now or then.

Jesus is the same YESTERDAY, today and tomorrow.
---kathr4453 on 12/16/11

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, "his faith" is counted for righteousness.

Abel demonstrate his faith in God's promise.

Cain demonstrated faith in his garden. an offering of wheat can't save anyone.

First faiih is not a work.

second, God JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY. Therefore only ungodly depraved sinners are justified. Not the Elect, not those who's man spirits are rebirthed. If that were so, then God would justify the godly elect. And Justification IS NOT teh New Birth or rebirth of anything.

Be mercifl to me a sinner.

Man knows he is a sinner.
---kathr4453 on 12/16/11

now you say you don't know what spiritual death is, yet you say you believe.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/11

Wow, I know why Kathr argues so strongly with you. You also are arrogant. You have an answer for everything and deny there are areas that your knowledge may be incomplete. Geesh.

But can you teach me something outside of what others have taught?

How about another death? How about the death of faith, James 2:17? How can your dead in sin, separation from God explanation fit this verse?

It does not, it cannot. Now. perhaps having seen this, can you accept that the word "death" may be used in more ways than one?
---Mark_Eaton on 12/16/11

"For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
---christan on 12/16/11

You still don't get it.

Funny you should quote this verse. The word "knowledge" in the verse above, its root word is ginosko or experiential knowledge. Not something you learn by studying or reading. You can only learn this by living it out.

What I have learned living it out is the commentaries and study guides have it wrong. Its to be lived outside the words and the books. Its to be given and taken. What goes around comes around. What you sew you shall reap. If I don't share it then I waste it.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/16/11

Mark Eaton, if speaking the truth in the Word of God is arrogance to you, so be it. Scripture clearly says,

"For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 1:8 - so, for you to declare, "I have personally found the more I study God's word, the less I seem to know" is rather disturbing.

As for Ephesians 2:1, your reply that Paul never wrote in English is not the issue. If you belief in the Holy Spirit like I do, I know that He has guided all the translators accordingly to God's will for the benefit of His people. The issue in Ephesians 2 is what the state of man is when God saves him.
---christan on 12/16/11

To the work mongers, harken onto the word of the Lord,

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:24, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all" Romans 4:16

Scripture never contradict Scripture, it merely confirms. And what it confirms is your understanding is warped and perverted as far as grace is concerned.
---christan on 12/16/11

Mark E, your arguments are for nothing. On 12/14, you stated ". I do not believe they posssess a dead spirit that is brought back to life."
Then you said,
"I believe that being born from above is just like being born physically"
Christan told you, you were confused. now you say you don't know what spiritual death is, yet you say you believe. And then you say,
"I can admit that I do not know exactly what "spiritual death" is.
Can you?"
You made a lot of statements then admit you don't know, and you ask, Can you? He told you he could, yet you disagree with him when you don't even know yourself. If you do know, you know, if not, why argue?
---Mark_V. on 12/16/11

Mark E. Part 2: The elect will not be deceived. You will be taught by God
The word "dead" in (Eph. 2:1) has one meaning. Yet the word "Dead" in many verses may have a different meaning. The Word dead is "Nekros" in Eph 2:1, It refers to Spiritual death, dead in sin, separated from the vivifying grace of God, or more distincity, having one's soul separated from the enlivening influences of the divine light and spirit, as a dead body is sparated from the material light and air, and consequently having no hope of life eternal (Matt. 8:22: Ephe. 2:1-5: 5:14: Coll. 2:13). Thus sinful practices are called dead in sin (heb. 6:1: 9:14). Also, dead unto sin, meaning inactive with regrard to sin.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/11

As for being pretentious, a Christian born of the Spirit of God will never be confused about the Word of God.
---christan on 12/15/11

I have great saddness for you. Such arrogance is astounding.

I have personally found the more I study God's word, the less I seem to know. It's not because of my lack of understanding or diligence in studying, nor outside influences. I have studied, not just read, 4-5 hours per week for the past 10 years.

We corresponded about the Eph 2:1 and I gave you my opinion. What you need to realize is the Apostle Paul never wrote in English.

The word you like to use, quickened, has its base word in Greek, the English word begat. To bear/born living young.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/16/11

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kathr, Did God save you because you obeyed His words or did He save you because He loved and elected you?christan///

It appears Abel OBEYED and is now listed with those in Hebrews 11 as one who is an heir of righteousness. Cain DISOBEYED what God asked, and God even gave Cain a second cance to OBEY, but Cain refused, showing us that faith requires obedience to God's gift of salvation.

Abel sacrificed BLOOD, God's requiremennt, showing his faith in the coming redeemer, looking forward to the cross, and THEN Abel found favor in God's eyes.

I love that God gave Cain a SECOND CHANCE to do what was right. CAIN REFUSED.

Cain's offering showed he was trying to earn his way to heaven..a sacrifice without blood.
---kathr4453 on 12/16/11

Romans 16:25-27

25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Dont ever let anyone tell you FAITH does not require obedience.

Acts ..the Holy Spirit is given to those WHO OBEY!!!

YES, the Gospel according to the MYSTERY requires obedience of faith.

To all nations means whosoever will.
---kathr4453 on 12/16/11

Did God save you because you obeyed His words or did He save you because He loved and elected you?Christian

What did Jesus say on the matter? And not just one verse. Look at ALL of them.

From what Ive read Christ taught us that we must FOLLOW him to have eternal life.
---JackB on 12/16/11

There are Scripture verses that declares it was God's will that Adam was created to fall Christan

Lets have em. Please do post them.
---JackB on 12/16/11

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christan, you don't understand GRACE.

Paul begins Romans 6,,

Shall we CONTINUE to SIN that Grace may abound...GOD FORBID... don't you KNOW that those saved by grace were baptized into His DEATH that the body of SIN might be destroyed

You see christan...THAT is real Grace....not some fairy tale of you name getting picked out of a hat and then NO RESPONSIBILITY or Christ in you...Galatians 2:20-21.

But dream on if you must in this lifetime only, until YOUR RUDE awakening will come when God will say..See Calvin with all the other liars and blasphemers ready to be judge for twisting MY WORD...go take your seat next to him!.

God said "LIARS will not enter the Kingdom of God"?
---kathr4453 on 12/16/11

kathr, do you even know what salvation by grace even means? Did God save you because you obeyed His words or did He save you because He loved and elected you?

Based on your testimony, "Because you have totally failed to OBEY and reckon and submit to this truth, you have not been raised up a NEW CREATURE, born of God", this is definitely not salvation by grace but by works - which God calls filthy rags.

Compare yours to Paul's teaching, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" Romans 9:11

What a difference - like heaven and hell!
---christan on 12/15/11

Mark Eaton, these are the very words of Paul, a chosen vessel of God to teach the Word to God's people.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins." Ephesians 2:1

Which part of the man do you think Paul was referring to in this verse? The flesh and blood man or the spiritual man? Are you to imply Paul did not know the difference between life and death when he wrote the epistles?

As for being pretentious, a Christian born of the Spirit of God will never be confused about the Word of God. He believes and know what the Scripture says is all 100% truth. Jesus taught, "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matthew 12:37
---christan on 12/15/11

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

---- that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

JESUS SAVES. ONLY Christ the begotten Son of God can make alive.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/11

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Markv, we are crucified with Christ, baptized into His death THAT the body of SIN might be destroyed. Because you have totally failed to OBEY and reckon and submit to this truth, you have not been raised up a NEW CREATURE, born of God, born from above, and those born of God cannot sin.However we do sin. Is it your old nature sinning or God's new life in you sinning?

God's nature in us cannot sin. We have become partakers of HIS DIVINE NATURE, 2nd Peter 1. SAYS SO! IT SAYS NATURE!!

If the Spirit of the Life of Christ in you SET YOU FREE from sin and death, you claim to be set free from death but fail to see you were also set free from the power of SIN as well.

Your own rebirthed man spirit cannot set you free from sin.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/11

Or do you even understand the meaning of "dead"?
---christan on 12/14/11

When it comes to spiritual death, does anyone really know?

We pretend to know everything there is about spirituality and God, yet, no one alive has seen either.

We know only a glimpse, through a heavy filter, seeing only shadows. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a fool or a liar.

I can admit that I do not know exactly what "spiritual death" is.

Can you?
---Mark_Eaton on 12/15/11

Kathr, you have to believe in the Eternal Begotten Son of God, that is Christianity 101. Once you receive faith, that He is who He claims to be then you will know the Truth and it will set you free. You are still dead. Because you came to Christ with no faith hoping to get it afterwards for the good deeds you did. Free will sucks the hope right out of many.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/11

Kathr, Why are you so wrapped up in psychobabble, Adam 1 or Adam 2 or spirit man soul man?
Humans are a single entity, we are not fractionated, you are whatever is in your brain!
Adam became a living soul.period. That's what we are! When we die we are dead souls,nothing spooky escapes our bodies except our breath!
We die and await resurrection.
The rest is mythological "religion"!
Or an overly active imagination!
---1st_cliff on 12/15/11

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Oh Dear, Christianity 001

Adam 1 is all mankind of the first original creation. in Adam all die. The FIRST man Adam was a life giving soul.

Now Christan, are you saying Adam is still alive givig souls away to humans?

In Adam all die....

All mankind apart from Christ is in the first Adam or Adam 1( as some scholors term it).
Obviously a term Christan has never heard, although it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

All those born from ABOVE are in the Last Adam, who is Christ.

Our old man, that is who is in Adam 1 has been baptized into Christ's DEATH. our old man that is Adam 1 has been CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST.

WE are DEAD and our life is Hidden with God IN CHRIST---.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/11

Kathr, let me teach you another thing that you heard me mention. Now here this:
"Only Jesus Christ had two natures" He was 100% human, and 100% God. You don't believe this because you don't believe in the Eternal Begotten Son of God.
No human being has two natures. We have one nature, a fallen nature. The flesh has not been redeemed. The very reason we still sin.
Copy it down so when you quote me you don't have to lie about what I said or what I believe in. Calvin did not teach me this, God's Word did.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/11

The heart of man is his conscience. Romans 1 and 2( after teh fall) tell us man still has a conscience of knowing right and wrong. The moment Adam and Eve sinned, their conscience KNEW they had sinned and disobeyed God and the KNEW they were naked and they were ASHAMED. (Remember a dead spirit is comatoseknowing NOTHING)

Did Eve's spirit sin or was it out of the desire of Eve's heart she sinned? The serpent appealed to her THOUGHTS, intellect, emotions self.

Also remember in scripture when seeing "spirit", if the "s" is in lower case it is man's spirit, or evil spirits etc, if it is a Capital "S" it is GOD'S SPIRIT.

John 3 uses a CAPITOL "S" showing Calvinism EXPOSED as a LIE!
---kathr4453 on 12/15/11

Calvinists did not believe in Romans 6-8 the way the majority of Christians do. This is why MarkV says we do not have a sin nature or two natures. If he doesn't have a sin nature why does he still sin, as he will admit he still sins.

Your HEART is in the SOUL not the spirit. This is why upon salvation our hearts have been purged by the blood of Jesus Christ. IF they say the heart IS the spirit, they are saying Jesus Saved them by His BLOOD before ever hearing the Gospel first TOTALLY contradicting their first statement that to be Born Again is to have man's spirit rebirthed BEFORE the Indwelling of Jesus Christ.

All cults have their own special doctrine of how THEY alone are the chosen ones. JW's Mormons, etc.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/11

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"Our old man , Adam 1 is also CRUCIFIED with Christ. Our History in Adam 1 ENDED at the Cross." kathr

I hope you're not serious about what you have said. The account of the Scripture tells us that Adam was in unbelief of God which resulted in the act of disobedience causing the fall of mankind. Do you even know what the fall of man is?

No where in the Scripture account did Adam repent unto God or made a sacrifice like Abel did and you have the audacity to say "Adam 1 is also CRUCIFIED with Christ"? Even Paul and the apostles never spoke of such heresy in the epistles.

This really confirms to us that your gospel is definitely not from the Holy Spirit.
---christan on 12/14/11

Mark E, thanks for your answer. I also disagree with you. You say he is dead spiritually. Doesn't that mean his spirit is dead? And when we talk about been born again of the Spirit, it's rebirth. When a person is born physically he is born spiritually dead. Separated from God. And what he needs is to be born again of the Spirit. He has to be drawn back to God by God. The Spirit brings him alive with Christ. It's called rebirth,
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loves "us" ( here the "us" is the elect, for He does not do that to everyone) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ for by grace you have been saved.."
---Mark_V. on 12/15/11

Christan, can you prove through scripture that one's HEART and Spirit are the same thing.

If man is dead, he still exibits the thoughts and intents of the heart. Out of our HEART comes this or that.

Romans 10:9-10 say if we believe with our HEART God raised Jesus from the dead, thou shall be saved. IT DOESN"T SAY SPITIT.

I know you all HATE salvation of God's terms.

If you have both a NEW Man Spirit in your fallen SOUL FLESH AND indwelt with God's Spirit, why do you still CHOOSE to SIN! And HOW is sinning even possible? 1st John says you CAN'T SIN. You have more mow than even Adam /Eve, YOUR restored spirit and now God's spirit.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/11

I agree 100% with Mark_Eaton.

Our old man , Adam 1 is also CRUCIFIED with Christ. Our History in Adam 1 ENDED at the Cross.

Christ is head of the New Creation. We are Complete IN HIM.

Old things pass away and ALL things become NEW. Just as Jesus taught, you can't put new wine in an old wine skin or a new cloth on an old garment.

Jesus wasn't giving sewing lessons, or teaching how to make wine.

ONLY THOSE truly BORN AGAIN, Born from ABOVE understand and SEE that truth.
---kathr4453 on 12/14/11

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"I believe people to be dead spiritually before accepting Christ." Mark Eaton

What? On one hand you agree that one is dead spiritually and yet a dead spirit has the ability to choose? Are you serious? Or do you even understand the meaning of "dead"?

Let's talk about the physical before we approach the spiritual. What you've said is basically a man when he is dead can actually still choose to have a Burger King for lunch. I sure you'll find this statement rather stupid... so I will not bother to even say anything more about your statement quoted above and the following in your reply to MarkV.
---christan on 12/14/11

"WRONG, Only Jesus can reconcile man back to God, through His death and resurrection." kathr

Flustered? Don't flatter yourself. You claim you ask questions when you are making statements. Your comment mentioned above is only half-truth, which is no truth at all.

It's true that Christ reconciled "His people" to the Father. Now, I ask you, how does the man become part of that reconciliation? Does man need to be "born of the Spirit" first or from within `he has his own free-will` to do it. I know where you`re going with your statements (which you claim are questions).

If your answer is of the latter, than Christ teaching of the born of the Spirit`in John 3 is rubbish and fallacy.
---christan on 12/14/11

Since you claim a person is not, dead spiritually, can you explain what "born again" means to you?
---Mark_V. on 12/14/11


First off, I believe people to be dead spiritually before accepting Christ. I do not believe they posssess a dead spirit that is brought back to life.

I believe that being born from above is just like being born physically. When I was born physically, my physical person did not exist before I was born. I believe the same is true spiritually.

When I am born physically, I am born with a body and a soul. I am not born with a spirit. When I accept Christ's sacrifice and get "saved", God births in me a spirit, born of His Holy Spirit, sealing me at the same time.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/14/11

Matthew 19:28 KJV
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

There are only two verses referring to regeneration.

MarkV teaches regeneration is the dead mans spirit being regenerated. However in light of teh scripture posted that would mean Jesus too was regenerated or Born again, and that at some point his man spirit died, and God had to rebirth Him .

Scripture teaches scripture and in no way does regeneration mean to resurrect, or make alive man's fallen dead spirit.
---kathr4453 on 12/14/11

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Mark E, you seem to disagree a person needs to be born again of the Spirit. Since you claim a person is not, dead spiritually, can you explain what "born again" means to you? I would love to hear your answer. I'm willing to learn.
---Mark_V. on 12/14/11

christan, I understand you are flustered here, but the real problem here is you have not answered any of my questions or backed up anything you say with scripture.

Christan, your last reply here didn't even address the question.

So either answer my questions with scripture or let others reply with scripture.

Man sinned and that ended any relationship with God. You say that relationship ended by our man spirit dying. And that the Holy Spirit apart from Jesus went around and MADE ALIVE mans'( the elect only) dead spirit SO THAT they alone could believe in Jesus.

WRONG, Only Jesus can reconcile man back to God, through His death and resurrection.

Maybe you don't understand death.
---kathr4453 on 12/14/11

"Your actually teaching our old man spirit re-entered the FLESH AGAIN!" kathr

What rubbish are you talking about? Where in my reply did I even use the word "re-incarnation"? It is your own darken heart that speaks, so that you can throw "stones" at what I say. So be it.

Let me ask you, can you choose to eat a steak if you're not born of the flesh? The answer must definitely be NO, right? Now, did you even choose to be born of the flesh to begin with? I know my answer is NO, what about yours?

And if you did not choose to be born in the flesh to start with, what makes you even think you can choose to be born of the divine Spirit? Our existence is by the will of God alone.
---christan on 12/13/11

"when Adam chose to eat of the tree, he chose death" James

Why don't you just show us where it says in the Scripture that Adam "chose death" before you accuse me of talking in "circles"?

There are Scripture verses that declares it was God's will that Adam was created to fall because God was only going to glorify His Son Jesus Christ. And in order for the Son to be glorified, the man Adam has no choice but to fall, period.

If you have a problem with this issue, go read the Scriptures, it's clearly taught in there. God did not leave His people high and dry with regards to His purpose and will. The question is, are you one of His people? Because you seem to be left high and dry.
---christan on 12/13/11

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Christan, when Adam chose to eat of the tree, he chose death. Adam knew what the consequences would be. Your verse has nothing to do with Adam while in a perfect state.

I believe you are confused with scriptures.

It is possible Christan you may be the one not Born of the Spirit. You seem to be talking in circles, and making no sense.
---James on 12/13/11

Christan, WHAT spirit are you referring to, Mans or Gods? Lets be clear and qualify eash one.

You say there is man's spirit that died with adams sin.

And the there is God's Spirit that indwells man.

You say God must FIRST rebirth man's spirit FIRST before God's Spirit can indwell man.

So, is the old man adam spirit QUICKENED, OR is the verse I just showed you saying that to be QUICKENED is to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit?

Maybe you haven't understood what markv is saying. He is saying our NEW BIRTH is NOT the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but it's only our old man spirit rebirthed.

You are really teaching re-incarnation.

That's what rebirthing "man's spirit" is.
---kathr4453 on 12/13/11

The word "reincarnation" derives from Latin, literally meaning, "entering the flesh again".

Let's be clear, the NEW BIRTH of being Born from Above, born of GOD, is not reincarnation, however, if man's spirit died and you call being born Again a re-entering of our old man spirit THAT is re-incarnation.

Your actually teaching our old man spirit re-entered the FLESH AGAIN!
---kathr4453 on 12/13/11

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall (2227) also quicken (2227)your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you..

Lets be clear here, to be quickened is not the old adams dead spirit quickened SO THAT one can then have ears to hear the Gospel. That is not what that verse says at all!
---kathr4453 on 12/13/11

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"It is still man doing the choosing." kathr

When a man chooses what to eat or what to wear, it does not imply he can choose between life and death as commanded to him by God. When a man chooses in his flesh, he merely chooses according to his nature. That is, when he is hungry, he will have to eat.

Jesus clearly declared, "It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

How can you choose spiritual life if you are first not even born of the spirit to begin with? Learn to divide and not separate the Word. Oh I forgot, how can one learn what is spiritual truth when he is not born of the Spirit?
---christan on 12/13/11

"Adam in his perfectly sinless intact man spirit chose death." kathr

I challenge you to show me Scripture that Adam "chose death" as you say. Who in the right mind would want to die? Here you make no sense to what you belief.

Now, I'll show you that Adam had to do what he did because, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief" Romans 11:32, giving credence to what God declared, "the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:11

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." Romans 9:14
---christan on 12/13/11

Christian, You're saying if Adam never sinned he would have died anyway??
The command was "IF" you disobey you will die!
Had he not disobeyed he would be alive today!
You don't trust God????
For God to demonstrate His mercy he predestined Adam's sin????
Hey that takes the cake! wow!
---1st_cliff on 12/13/11

Christian, You and all fundamentalists talk "Psychobabble" that sounds like "holy speech"
The truth is simple,
God created man to fill the earth with people.
God has not changed his mind, Jesus ransomed us (Jn.3.16) from death so people will live eternally on earth! Psl.115.16
psl.37.29. No smoke and mirrors!
If you can see yourself in a mirror you are not a spirit!
---1st_cliff on 12/13/11

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"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6
---christan on 12/13/11

You keep using this Scripture but you keep translating for yourself.

You keep saying that the word "born" in John 3:6 means to quicken our dead spirits to life.

Why do you keep doing that? Do you think that Jesus made a mistake? Jesus could have said "make you alive spiritually" to Nicodemus but He did not.

Why, because Jesus was saying it correctly. WE have made it incorrect. We have changed the meaning of the verse.

There was nothing alive in me spiritually before Christ because there was nothing there.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/13/11

"Adam was not created to die!" 1st cliff

Really? Even after reading the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation and you come with such a confession? My, how highly a man made from dust thinks of himself.

Paul declared, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32

That is, for God to demonstrate His mercy, He predestined His creature called Adam that he will commit the sin of unbelief. And we all know what happened, God cursed Adam, "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" Genesis 3:19

Not created die? Think again. Only in Jesus Christ are the Christians not "created to die", in the spirit.
---christan on 12/13/11

because Orthodox Christians know what spiritual death means.
---Dan on 12/12/11

Funny, how a small question like this becomes a stone-throwing event.

Did you exist before you were born of your mother? Did your spirit exist before it was born from above? This is the essence of this question.

The issue is not were you dead in sin and transgressions. All were. The issue was your spirit born from above, or did it exist prior to you becoming a new creation.

Jesus said "born from above". Not resurrected, not transformed, not changed, not quickened, not reborn. Not all of them. Born.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/13/11

Mark Eaton, spin it whichever way you want that the word "quickened" was added. For I know that every version says either, quickened, made alive. The issue is, which of the triune God gives the dead man spiritual life? It was Jesus who declared unto us,

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6

In other words, in the triune God, it is the Holy Spirit that gives the sinner Spiritual Life in Jesus Christ, in which he was once dead in his sins and trespasses. Dead to God! One cannot be alive in Christ if the Holy Spirit does not give him life in his dead spirit, plain and simple.
---christan on 12/13/11

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"Our spirit was not dead and resurrected. It was unborn. It never existed." 1st cliff

Honestly, what ungodly teaching is this?

When God created Adam, only the man and not the other living creatures received the body, soul and spirit. Basically called tripartite. All other living creatures does not have a soul and spirit.

Can't you remember that Adam had fellowship with God before his fall? And what is God? Jesus declared, "God is spirit"! So, don't you think that Adam was alive in his spirit to God then? It was only after the fall that God cursed Adam and drove him out of the garden, totally cutting him of from any fellowship with God. Hence the spirit of man died first before the flesh.
---christan on 12/13/11

You simply hate the idea that when God saves the sinner, they are totally dead in their spirit and unable to go to Christ by their "free-will". Not that there's such a thing as "free-will" anyways.
---christan on 12/12/11

christan, the WILL of man is in his heart/conscience and mind, not in his spirit.

AND you then contradict yourself by saying God rebirthed teh spirit of man's dead spirit to choose? It is still man doing the choosing. Adam in his perfectly sinless intact man spirit chose death.

And after his man spirit died as you claim, HIS CONSCIENCE was definitely awake and aware he was naked. A dead man would have no awareness of such things.
---kathr4453 on 12/13/11

1 Cliff, You said,

"Satan to Eve="You will NOT surely die"Gen.3.4
Who do you believe??"

The devil is a deceiver and liar. So he lied. For Adam and Eve did die that day, and not a physical death. God is Spirit and we are to worship Him in Spirit and Truth. When He made Adam, we are told,
"So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him" (v.1:27) We could not look like Him physically since He has no body. Adam was a living being capable of embodying God's communicable attriubtes. In the image of God he was like God in that he could reason and had intellect, will, and emotions in the moral sense, He was also like God because he was good and sinless.
---Mark_V. on 12/13/11

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
---christan on 12/12/11

The word quickened is not actually contained in the verse, it was added by the translators.

The verses Eph 2:5 and Col 2:13 both contain the phrase "made you alive together with Christ". One of the base Grk words for this phrase is zoopoieo which is translated as produce living young, to begat, to give life, to make alive.

We are spiritually begat by God. Just as Christ is the firstborn from the dead, we are the church of the firstborn (Heb 12:23). The birth concept is very important to God. We can understand it no other way. Our spirit was not dead and resurrected. It was unborn. It never existed.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/13/11

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kathr4453, the flesh on the way to death is not the issue in this blog as it is a given to anyone who calls himself a Chistian.

Paul declared, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" Ephesians 2:1

Which part of the man is Paul was addressing here? The flesh or the spirit? Obviously it's the spirit! Paul was addressing the Ephesians who were still alive then and reminded them of what state their spirit was before the Spirit gave them life. That's Paul's message.

You simply hate the idea that when God saves the sinner, they are totally dead in their spirit and unable to go to Christ by their "free-will". Not that there's such a thing as "free-will" anyways.
---christan on 12/12/11

Kathr, Not another Warwick!!!
Animals have a natural life cycle,unlike humans.
Adam was not created to die!
If the animals never died we would be unable to cope with the teeming billions of rabbits,cats,dogs etc...
Adam was given "dominion" (manager) over all wild life.
How does a farmer "manage"his herds???
How do you manage lobsters,alligators,sea gulls???
Another one who does not recognize the natural "food chain"!
Plant and Animal sickness is "environmental"!
---1st_cliff on 12/12/11

Adam brought death into the whole world, not just man. Disease, death etc is the result of the fall of Adam. Even this world is groaning waiting for the New Earth/W/O vulcano's earthquakes etc.

There was no death before Adam, not even animals.

Yet, plants, animals do not have a spirit in them, yet death entered into the world also affectinng them.

This OLD CREATION is going to be destroyed.

Animals get sick, diseased as do plants, all because of sin brouhgt into the world.

We are not being restored back to what Adam/Eve were before the fall. The New Creature/creation has a far hiigher calling and order.

No moon/sun/or days, but an endless eternal life where no evil will enter in.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/11

James l,
#1 is rediculous
#2 is correct Day="Yom"=period of time (Strong's Concordance)
#3 Adam took 900 years to die slowly?
#4Scripture says nothing about dieing spiritually "that" day!
Paul was a Pharisee who believed in immortality of the soul! (Holman's dictionary p377)

Satan to Eve="You will NOT surely die"Gen.3.4
Who do you believe??
---1st_cliff on 12/12/11

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1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

So here is a contradiction again by what MarkV, Dan and Christan are saying. They say teh spirit of man was rebirthed by the Holy Spirit to KNOW the Things of God.

However Paul says no man's spirit can know the things of God except the Spirit of God in in him.

Again, there is no proof the spirit of man died at the fall, meaning noin existant.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/11

Dan, AKA MarkV, I'm brought to spiritual life by JESUS CHRIST, who alone gives life out of death. The Holy Spirit working as an independent agent before Jesus Brings to Life is not found in scripture, but is a presumptuous doctrine by Calvinists to EXCLUDE anyone from faith in Christ who doesn't believe in re-birth of man's spirit first.. According to MarkV, rebirth is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

So we have two entirely different Spirits involved here. One who only brings Adams dead spirit back to life, and The Spirit of the LIFE of Christ who INDWELLS you and brings you into fellowship with God the Father as a SON...born of God.

The ONLY BORN AGAIN Spirit is that of being Born of God being indwelt with His Spirit.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/11


God said to Adam "In the day you eat thereof, you shall die"

And then Adam lived 930 years, and died.

There are only a few ways to reconcile this. Either:

1) God lied
2) The "day" was 1,000 years
3) Adam STARTED dying that day, and finished dying 900 years later
4) Adam died spiritually THAT day, then physically 900 years later

Since you don't accept Paul's testimony, I guess it would do no good to quote Romans 7:9-11 for corroberation on view #4

Or Romans 1:18-25 that we exchange spiritual life for death, adn need to be reborn
---James_L on 12/12/11

Kathr4453, if you do not know what spiritual death is, and have to ask others, you have no truth in you. Why do you think you have to be brought to spiritual life? Who would think of asking such questions? Only those who are dead in sin, or as some passages say, dead in transgressions and sin. And if you are alive physically and asking the questions, how are you dead in sin? You must be a Mormon, because Orthodox Christians know what spiritual death means.
---Dan on 12/12/11

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"some say" lots of ideas that are not supported by Holy Scripture

if the SPIRIT of man was really "dead" then NO MAN had any means of communicating with GOD ...mankind would have been no different than the animal kind and there would be no prophets and people GOD worked with in the OT

as for the last half of the question is is nonsensical when related to the Holy Spirit or the concept of being born again ...aside from fact there are no Scriptures on ones conscience seeing Hebrews 9:14 is speaking of sin not a future event
---Rhonda on 12/12/11

I don't know who you mean, so I can't speak for what they mean. But . . . I understand that Adam and Eve fell because they were only perfect as creatures, not perfect in God's love incapable of sinning. Jesus is the first truly perfect One to come to this earth "without sin" (in Hebrews 4:15) . . . "that in all things He may have the preeminence." (in Colossians 1:18) They were alive as creatures, but not in the eternal love life which is only in Jesus > "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." (1 John 5:11) So, as creatures Adam and Eve became dead in sin, and passed their sin infection on to all people > see Ephesians 2:1-2.
---Bill_willa6989 on 12/11/11

Spiritual death is a figurative expression.
Scripture says nothing about Adam dieing spiritually.Neither does it say separation from God is death, this is an opinion!
Adam became a living soul, at death he was a dead soul.period, just like any of us who die, we are dead souls awaiting resurrection!

Any other interpretation supports the lie of an immortal soul! (No such thing in scripture!)
---1st_cliff on 12/11/11

Adam living for 930 years clearly refers to the flesh and blood part of the man. It was the the fellowship he had with God that was the issue. And when he disobeyed God together with his wife, God not only cursed his flesh (hence he died after 930 years),

"So he drove out the man, and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Genesis 3:24

This verse clearly imply that it was the end of Adam's communication with God spiritually. And so too are those born after the flesh of Adam.
---christan on 12/11/11

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Why does Paul teach, the first man adam was a life giving soul, and the last man Adam( Jesus) is that life giving SPIRIT. and further states, that was not first that was spiritual but earthly. So, it's only presumptuousness that man's spirit died and the Holy Spirit had to resurrect the spirit of man in order to cry out to God, not called salvation but leads to salvation, for the elect only???

THE CONSCIENCE is in the soul.

The conscience is what is pricked. Man's conscience never died.

You can find no scrpture backing up absolutely that states man is totally incapable of crying out to God UNTIL the Holy Spirit brings a mans spirit back to life first before that's possible.

ALL presumptuousness .
---kathr4453 on 12/11/11

\\How does one not understand that the death here in Romans 5:12 refers to the spirit of the man?\\
---christan on 12/11/11

It's because I understand context, Christan. Romans 5 is about PHYSICAL death in Adam, and physical resurrection in Christ. Compare the wording to 1Cor 15, and it SHOULD be clear to you, too.

Rom 5:15-17....For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God....abound to the many....For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive...the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

1C 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
---James_L on 12/11/11

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Romans 5:12

How does one not understand that the death here in Romans 5:12 refers to the spirit of the man? Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden (which clearly means the lost of communication with God, and remember that God is Spirit) - this was the beginning of spiritual death in all mankind.

Jesus confirms this saying, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

The question is how then does a dead spirit call out to God that he wants to be save? When you're dead, you're dead!
---christan on 12/11/11

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