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Does God Love Everybody

Does God love every individual the same? If He does, why are some born crippled, some mental, some in very poor countries? Scripture please.

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 ---Mark_V. on 6/9/12
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"Coptic - Trust you see" Warwick (2)

Where are Horner's brackets?

John 4:19:

"Lord, I see...thou art a prophet."

Same grammar sense construction as in John 1:1c i.e. a predicate noun occurring before the verb and the noun is a common (count) noun.

John 8:44:

"that (one) was a murderer [of man] from at first..."

Again, the predicate common (count) noun "murderer" occurs before the verb and with the same constructive grammar sense and syntax as John 1:1c.

See also Horner's bracketless translation of John 9:17, 24, 25, 10:1, 13, 12:6, 18:35, 37a, 37b.
---scott on 6/17/12

"The Coptic John an English translation of the Coptic! I trust you see the difference." Warwick (1)

Uhhhh what?

Hey remember when you argued for months that the Hebrew word "Eth" was an unspoken word for God and then a year later said that you were just kidding? Yeah, that was great.

Regarding: "brackets imply words used by the Coptic and not required by the English" (p. 376):

Do not forget my friend that Reverend Horner was an ardent Trinitarian.

And clearly Horner does not always follow his own rule. In treating John 1:1c differently than other identical constructions (without brackets), he falls into the realm of theological bias.

---scott on 6/16/12

"You have repeated...William Barclay." Warwick

Buckley ( 6/15/12) not Barclay...silly man.
---scott on 6/16/12

Other than part quoting, misquoting, total fabrication, or quoting spiritists and other strange folk, a common JW tactic is baseless accusation. Ask any ExJW how the lies were spread about them!

Scott said that a comment I wrote was a cut and paste job. Knowing I wrote it myself, as the result of research, I challenged him to show where it was from. He even said He had found it on a site but could not show us where or reproduce it. His one attempt to do so was a feeble effort joining my coment with that of another person. He still has not been able to substantiate his accusation but has repeated it.

Of course this in itself is of no earth shattering consequence but it does demonstarte something important. That Scott is a liar.
---Warwick on 6/16/12

Scott, as my post of yesterday shows you have repeated a WTS lie regarding William Barclay.

This is a deceitful non quote, as the record shows. Regarding this WTS lie Barclay wrote "The Watchtower article has, by judicious cutting, made me say the opposite of what I meant to say.

I would love to see you wriggle out of this one. Or will you admit it is a lie?
---Warwick on 6/16/12

Scott the Coptic John 1:1 you refer to is an English translation of the Coptic! I trust you see the difference.

You quote Horner "[a] God was the Word". But "The full citation of Horner's Coptic New Testament is as follows:

"The Coptic Version of the New Testament in the Southern Dialect otherwise called Sahidic and Thebaic, 4 Volumes (Oxford, 1911)."

"Horner's English translation of John 1:1c is as follows:

"...and [a] God was the Word."'

Horner's critical apparatus defines the use of square brackets as follows: "Square brackets imply words used by the Coptic and not required by the English" (p. 376).

Again, WTS deception!
---Warwick on 6/16/12

Scott, The entire Holy Scripture in both testaments proclaims there is only ONE God, being THE God, Not "a" but "THE", for the lie of proposed "a" not found in the Scripture is used by false polytheistic religions and cults. Do not add nor take away from my word, says the Lord, else you be found a condemned liar.

The literal Greek Constantinopolitan MSS, reads:
"En arch hn o LogoV, kai o LogoV hn proV ton Qeon,
kai QeoV hn o LogoV. OutoV hn en arch proV ton Qeon

= lit.Eng:
"In beginning being the Word, and the Word being from him God,
and God being the Word. This One being in beginning from him God."
John 1:1,2.
---Eloy on 6/16/12

Coptic John 1:1- "Abstract noun"- Marc

Lambdin defines indefinite nouns as "designating unspecified quantities of a substance requir[ing] an indefinite article in Coptic..."

And he says: "abstract nouns such as "me" and "truth", often appear with either article, where English employs no article."

However, this has absolutely nothing to do with Coptic John 1:1c because the noun used here, (noute, god), is a common noun and does not designate "quantities of a substance". And the noun is also clearly not abstract like "truth", "justice", "hatred",'s god.
---scott on 6/16/12

Coptic John 1:1-

That's the point exactly.

While Koine Greek does not have an indefinite article (thus the controversy as to how John 1:1c should be translated) Sahidic Coptic does, like English, have an indefinite article ("a" or "an") and George Horner understands the significance of this as indicated it in his translation (1862):

"[a] God was the Word".
---scott on 6/16/12

Coptic John 1:1-

Malan's translation:

"And a God was the Word."

The Gospel According to S[t]. John, Translated from the Eleven Oldest Versions except the Latin, and Compared with the English Bible, with Notes on Every One of the Alterations Proposed by the Five Clergymen in their Revised Version of this Gospel, (London, England: Joseph Masters, 1862), Notes on the Gospel According to S. John, p 8.

Malan: "in my translation of this verse, I gave the verbal construction of the original, 'and a God was the Word.'" p. 8.
---scott on 6/16/12

"We profess that Christ is not a mere man, but God the Word, and man the Mediator between God and men, the High Priest of the Father"--Clement(c 96AD) Homolies, Apostolical Constitutions, pg 153.
To believe that the Word as God was not understood by ante-nicean fathers is to deceive yourself and lie to others...
---micha9344 on 6/16/12


Surprised you reused Coptic John 1:1, after being explained it didn't support your case. Sahidic, like English(unlike Greek), has definite ('the') and indefinite ('a') articles. In Greek'theos' of John 1:1c (i.e. "and God was the Word") which has no article acts almost adjectively. Thus, some Bibles translate this "the Word was divine". The indefinite article is used in Sahidic with abstract nouns and nouns of substance. Sahidic grammar rules, translating the Greek, mean 'theos' of John 1:1c must possess indefinite article.

It's more complicated than the Watchtower's dishonest culling of Harner's explanation. It may benefit you if you attended to Harner's unedited explanation rather than the Watchtower's.
---Marc on 6/16/12

Misquote mining.

The Watchtower, May 15, 1977, page 320, quotes from Barclay's 'Many Witnesses, One Lord,' 1963, pp. 23, 24. By deceitful selection they have him appearing to agree John 1:1 says "The Word was a god." However Barclay, wrote to Professor Donald Shoemaker (26.8.77)"The Watchtower article has, by judicious cutting, made me say the opposite of what I meant to say. I was meaning to say, as you well know, is that Jesus is not the same as God, to put it more crudely, that he is of the same stuff as God, that is of the same being as God," but the way the Watchtower has printed my stuff has simply left the conclusion that Jesus is not God in a way that suits themselves."

---Warwick on 6/16/12

Regarding Barclay we know who is lying. It is, as usual the Watch Tower Society. Well before the WTS deceitfully misquoted him (as shown in my earlier quote today) Dr Barclay, a leading Greek scholar had already written. "The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New testament translations. John 1:1 is translated: '...the Word was a god, ' a translation which is grammatically impossible...It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."-An Ancient heresy in Modern Dress, Expository Times, 65, Oct.1957.

The WTS, dishonest at its very core!
---Warwick on 6/16/12


Let's address your (endless) list of misrepresented bibles.

1. Solomon Malan's Coptic translation: Your Watchtower buddies have lied about the Coptic grammar rules regarding definite and indefinite articles. Like the lie (if it's not you, then it's Brooklyn) about Horner, abstract nouns must take an indefinite article. The 'theos' in John 1:1c has an abstract quality about it, therefore in Coptic it takes the indefinite article. Simple, really.
2. The Chinese: Would you like to unpack this idea that the Chinese necessarily translates John 1: 1 as "and the Word was a god"? My sister-in-law, Chinese and a teacher of Mandarin, says you can't do it. Care to explain without cut-and-paste?
---Marc on 6/16/12

I give it to God that He alone knows what perfection is. We fallen mankind do not.

Warwick on 6/15/12

Very well said Warwick
So let's just repeat the things in the Bible as God wrote them!
Word for word!

As always God bless you

Ps. I know it looks like a "Q" but it a "G"
TheSeg Peace
---TheSeg on 6/16/12

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Oh dear, MarkV wants to MEASURE God's love by materialistic wealth, etc.

So you believe God's love is geographic in nature?

Spoken like a true arrogant American.

Well, since you were elect Mark before the foundation of the world, would it really matter if you were born in a poor country with out legs? NO POOR ELECT MARKV????? No crippled elect MarkV? God now a respector of persons? Are you too into teh prosperity movement false doctrine?

Wealth, which can buy so many things including good health and good food can be the greatest enemy!

We need to BUY Gold tried in the fire so that we can be rich, having eyes to see the truth.
---kathr4453 on 6/16/12

"Think, man, think!"- Marc

Millard J. Erickson-

"[The Trinity] is not clearly or explicitly taught anywhere in Scripture, yet it is widely regarded as a central goes contrary to what is virtually an axiom of biblical doctrine, namely, that there is a direct correlation between the scriptural clarity of a doctrine and its cruciality to the faith and life of the church.There is another, more general objection against the doctrine of the Trinity. It is essentially an argument from the apparent silence of the Bible on this important subject..."

God in Three Persons: A Contemporary Interpretation of the Trinity. 2nd Printing. Baker Books, 1996, pp. 11, 12, 108, 109.
---scott on 6/16/12

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

So, if God "is the Savior of all men", I would say He loves all people the same. But it also says, "especially of those who believe." If people disobey how God would do them good . . . they miss out.

In the Gospels, we see how demons possessing people did cause physical symptoms. So, Satan's spirit (Ephesians 2:2) can cause physical problems, while people obey his spirit.

But in God's way of loving we have His love's Spirit "of power and of love and of a sound mind." (2 Timothy 1:7)
---willie_c: on 6/16/12

"Think man!"- Marc

Millard J. Erickson-
(2- Continued)

"In response to the complaint that a number of portions of the Bible are ambiguous or unclear, we often hear [the] statement "It is the peripheral matters that are hazy...The core beliefs are clearly and unequivocally revealed"....

...This argument would appear to fail us with respect to the doctrine of the Trinity, however. For here is a seemingly crucial matter where the Scriptures do not speak loudly and clearly...Little direct response can be made to this charge. It is unlikely that any text of Scripture can be shown to teach the doctrine of the Trinity in a clear, direct and unmistakable fashion."

God/Three Persons
---scott on 6/16/12

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Marc, your absolutely correct. The J. Witnesses have been changing their believes over and over with one purpose in mind, to dethrone the Lord Jesus Christ. It is evident by their History. They teach that Jesus was a perfect man, that He was not crucified, that He was impaled on a torture stake. They even change the terminology. In their earlier books their pictures depicted the Crucifixion and Christ on the Cross, but not anymore. Their charter of the Watchtower Society of Pennsylvania Article 11 shows the purpose of worship, "And for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus" Now they altered that statement and teach not to worhsip Jesus being allowed only to do Him obeisance. More changes with one purpose.
---Mark_V. on 6/16/12


Gibbon? Are you serious? BTW, I suppose you've read all 12 volumes, Scott?

J. Buckley who?

I have no idea what your academic training is, but judging by your quote mining, it's apparent you've neither read these books you interminably grab a sentence from nor understand these men's philosophies. Quote-mining isn't an argument, but is a skill JWs seem quite adept at. Quote-mining is, logically speaking, an informal fallacy, and is closely related to, as it is in this and other instances, the fallacy of authority (JWs just love their authority, don't they!). As someone actually trained in both philosophy and religious studies, if you presented a paper based on this tactic I would, without hesitation, FAIL you.
---Marc on 6/15/12

Seq, as I have already pointed out God says His creation was 'very good.' I give it to God that He alone knows what perfection is. We fallen mankind do not. Of Genesis 1:31 Wesley writes "Now All was made, every part was good, but all together very good. The glory and goodness, the beauty and harmony of God's works both of providence and grace, as this of creation, will best appear when they are perfected." On no foundation, and contradicted by Scripture you say that when God makes something and calls it "very good" it is less than perfect. Not so. Deuteronomy 32:4 "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he."
---Warwick on 6/15/12

"Think, man, think!"- Marc

Edward Gibbon-

"If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."

Gibbon, History of Christianity - (in The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. New Edition. 12 vols. (London:
W. Strahan [etc.], 1783-1790). DG311 .G42 / 04-03393.
---scott on 6/15/12

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"Think, man, think!"- Marc

J. A. Buckley, Second Century Orthodoxy. (1978), pp. 114-15.

"Up until the end of the second century at least, the universal Church remained united in one basic sense, they all accepted the supremacy of the Father. They all regarded God the Father Almighty as alone supreme, immutable, ineffable and without beginning...

...With the passing of those second century writers and leaders, the Church found itself. . . .slipping slowly but inexorably toward that point. . . .where at the Council of Nicaea the culmination of all this piece- meal eroding of the original faith was reached. There, a small volatile minority, foisted its heresy upon an acquiescent majority...."
---scott on 6/15/12


The 2 dictionaries YOU quoted, Oxford and Collins, both define polytheism as 'belief in OR worship of'. There is no 'AND' there, as you imply I dishonestly omitted.

I know that JWs don't worship Jesus, but you do BELIEVE in 2 gods, unlike orthodox, traditional (i.e. predating Arius)Christianity.

David, I feel so sad you've allowed your mind to be deceived in such a way that you can't even understand the simple historical fact that Trinitarianism preceded Arius by 2 and half centuries. Think, man, think!
---Marc on 6/15/12

Seq, what you cannot evade is that God made man and woman perfect and commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and rule over it.
What you quote is irrelevant and obviously cannot contradict what God has said.
Warwick on 6/15/12

My sentiments exactly!
But, I would just change one word.
That is the word God used. Good, not perfect!
You are changing, not what I say, but what God has said!
Just so you know, ok

Its just like the word, day!

---TheSeg on 6/15/12

Gen_1:4 it was good
Gen_1:10 it was good.
Gen_1:12 it was good.
Gen_1:18 it was good.
Gen_1:21 it was good.
Gen_1:25 it was good.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.
What is missing here?

Gen_1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Rom_8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say he made them perfect!
Your word not his!
The word is GOOD not perfect!
---TheSeg on 6/15/12

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Atheist, Jesus out of his love has paid the price of eternal torments for you so that you do not have to. However, by you rejecting Christ, you are accepting hell, all by your own self choice to be condemned to hell, and Loving God has zero to do with you freely reject God and His love, and you freely embracing hell's eternal torments. That is your choice to be condemned, not God's. He did that what he could to save condemned man from hell, but when man continues to say No to God's salvation, then the man condemns them self. So stop throwing your life away, and remaining in condemnation, and do the wise thing and get saved while you still have breath to do so.
---Eloy on 6/15/12

Seq, what you cannot evade is that God made man and woman perfect and commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and rule over it.

What you quote is irrelevant and obviously cannot contradict what God has said.
---Warwick on 6/15/12

Atheist God does love you. He loved you and me so much the sent his Son to die for me and you. I would hate to not ever meet you in heaven. Don't put God in the same bracket with doctors and lawyers. I know lawyers and doctors are crooks. They are corrupt and dishonest.they are greedy and full of evil.
---shira4368 on 6/15/12

Eloy, I am resolved to eternal torture by your loving god---if he/she/it exists. I have no fear.

Warwick, Doctors and modern medicine?
---atheist on 6/15/12

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Micha 2: the love of God in Scripture is always directed at His chosen nation, Israel, at His elect, at His chosen one's, at His children. Jesus love is quoted to be towards "When Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, "having loved His own who were in the world" He loved them to the end" This was not said of the lost. And when He mentions the lost, He states there is no love of God in them. And we know that "we love Him, because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19). The "we" and the "us" concerns believers. And if God first loved (the lost) the love of God would be in them.
---Mark_V. on 6/15/12

atheist, I have corrected you before, there is no "if" in proven reality and truth. So awake to righteousness, and get saved. For if you perish in your sins, the opportunity for salvation is passed, and eternal separation from God in the torments of hell is a very long time.
---Eloy on 6/15/12

Atheist, in evolutionary terms how do you explain the present parlous state of mankind which suffers from c3,600 genetic diseases, caused by various mutations. Evolutionists would have us believe that natural selection plus mutations have brought about evolution from the original imagined lifeform to all that we see alive today. They say that only mutations which confer a survival advantage are retained, thereby, they say, adding new unique specific genetic information to the genome. However the susceptibility to various forms of cancer results from mutations passed on by parents. How do these life-shortening diseases confer survival advantage?
---Warwick on 6/15/12

Athiest, you answered the question correctly. The question is pointless to you but not to those who believe by faith. You should also know there is a God because as (Rom. 1:18-22) we are told,

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because although they knew God, the did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools"

you have no excuse athiest.
---Mark_V. on 6/15/12

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Again, all fine, well and good!

But it is written!
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
This is what perfect is as the angels of God in heaven, Is it not!

If they would have been perfect, they would have neither married nor be male and female and would have been as the angles in heaven.
By God own word, Christ!

Because this is where it will end!
As the angles in heaven!

Now go to YouTube and listen to
Raydio - You Can't Change That
God Bless
---TheSeg on 6/15/12

If god exists then the answer must be apparently not.

But since he does not exist, the question is pointless, and the fact that people are born into lives of varying opportunities and bodies of varying health, does not need to be explained anyway.
---atheist on 6/14/12

I thought I had made my point clearly, but apparently not. Genesis ch. 1 does mention the creation of the universe, however it is moreso about the world God created for the animals and humans who would inhabit it. It doesn't cover the angel's creation/fall. All Scriptures which refer to the origin of sin, and God's solution for same, and what will occur when Christ returns centre firstly upon man, and secondly the animals. These Scriptures tell us the Son came as God's solution for the sin of Adam, saying that death, disease and suffering are the result of Adam's sin. And that these things will not exist when Jesus comes again.

In this vein God says His creation was made perfect, and marred by Adam's sin.
---Warwick on 6/14/12

"Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward "us," in that, while "we" were yet sinners, Christ died for "us."

Christ died for Paul and everyone else while they were still sinners not after they were saved.
---michael_e on 6/14/12

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Seq, you ask "Why make them male and female and not as the angels of God in heaven?" God has told us why:'And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth" Genesis 1:28.

There is nothing imperfect in this!
---Warwick on 6/14/12

Micha, (Romans 5:8) let me explain it,

"Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward "us," in that, while "we" were yet sinners, Christ died for "us."

Paul talking to believers the "us," He died for His children. If Christ died for everyone, everyone would be saved. (Eph. 2:4,5)
"But God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by Grace you have been saved." speaking concerning "us" Those who were lost and made alive.
God loved Israel over the other nations, for 2,000 years they had no gospel. Without hope and without God.
---Mark_V. on 6/14/12

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
2Chr 9:8 Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, [to be] king for the LORD thy God: because thy God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he thee king over them, to do judgment and justice.
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
God loves is men who don't love God...
Sovereign, Holy, Just, and Loving..a perfect blend of seemingly opposing qualities.
---micha9344 on 6/14/12

When God speaks about love, it always is aim at the beloved, the elect, the chosen from the foundation of the world, the saved or those who will be saved. It is always aimed at His children, those born of God. This love is never intended for the lost. Even when the writers of Scripture used the word love it was aim at believers. Love has been perfected among only "us." He also loved the world, for He created it, but not the lost world. We love Him because He first loved us.
---Mark_V. on 6/14/12

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Yes, Warwick
You gave me 2Corinthians_11:4, as if to say see.

So I'll give you 2Corinthians_11:1-3.
Because you are clearly changing that which God clearly call good!
Into that which is perfect and call it, the word of God!

You say Adam's sin change all that which was perfect.
Yet the bible says:
Gen_3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

So you are saying this serpent is part of this perfection, you speak of.
Because he was already in the garden, before Adams sinned!
So he must be part of your perfection.
---TheSeg on 6/14/12

Warwick, just to add a little to your discussion with Seg, did you take into consideration the fall of Satan? His fall came before Adam sinned. And if it was perfect, what of the Tree in the middle of the garden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the tree Adam was not to eat of. The tree was exactly as God planted. If everything was perfect, the tree would be only good to eat. I just wanted to add a little to your discussion with Seg. Satan was already roaming around before Adam sinned.
---Mark_V. on 6/14/12

Mat_19:4- Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female!
Mat_19:5- and shall cleave to his wife!

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Gal_3:28- there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Putting aside the serpent in the garden!
If as you say perfection existed in the beginning.
Why make them male and female and not as the angels of God in heaven?
This alone should tell you the resurrection was from the beginning.
---TheSeg on 6/14/12

Seq, you may believe whatever you like, and you do. I prefer to believe what Scripture says. Therefore I believe the earth was created perfect with no death. disease and suffering. Adam's sin changed all that bringing the curse of death disease and suffering. As the NT says this is the sole reason why Jesus came, to pay the price of sin, to overturn the rule of the curse and when He returns to restore the earth to perfection, where there will be no more "death,crying, mourning or pain.. This is The gospel. Apparently you follow a "different gospel" 2 Corinthians 11:4.
---Warwick on 6/13/12

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Rev_21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea.
Nothing at all!

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Where is the New Jerusalem coming from?
Would this be a new heaven or the old one?

Now you want to talk about perfection!
back to the time of perfection, before Adam's sin.

Take a good look at what youre calling perfection.
Before Adam's sin was everything perfect in heaven?
That you should call it, perfection?

You want me to believe it was perfect. I dont!
Peace Bro.
---TheSeg on 6/13/12

Seq, what book you have been reading not to understand Jesus came to overturn the curse brought upon creation by Adam's sin.

Revelation 21:4 speaks of the coming New Jerusalem where there will be no more death,crying, mourning or pain. A restoration to the time before sin where they didn't exist.

Isaiah ch. 11 points to a time when carnivores will no longer be carnivores-restored to their pre-sin condition.

Romans 8:18-23 says to look forward from present sufferings to when things will be restored, liberated from the curse, decay and groaning, back to the time of perfection, before Adam's sin.

This is the gospel, forgiven from sin and towards a time when there will be no more misery suffering or death.
---Warwick on 6/13/12

Tell me Warwick why should you be surprised?
You believe everything was made perfect, that doesnt surprise me.

You also say:
God tells us eventually everything will be restored.
What will it be restored to if the mess in which we live has been there from day one?

Restored is this what he said?
Rev_21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev_22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Restore, new whats the difference, right.
We can all believe whatever we want.

Seest thou these great buildings?
Am I adding to them?
---TheSeg on 6/12/12

Seq, when God finished creation He said it was very good. The word 'very' means 'exceedingly.' Throughout Genesis 1 God says what he had made that day was 'good.' But when finished,and working as planned, God called it "very good" in itself and for His purposes, because He did not create it without purpose. I am surprized you believe God's "very good" was not perfect. Only God is perfect as are His purposes and whatever He makes.

Do you imagine the death, disease and suffering in the world was there in God's initial creation, and He called it "very good?"

God tells us eventually everything will be restored. What will it be restored to if the mess in which we live has been there from day one?
---Warwick on 6/12/12

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Jesus has claimed in prayer that our Father loves us "as You have loved Me." (in John 17:23) So, not only does our Father love us the same as each other, but the same as He loves Jesus. But we see how Jesus so loved has suffered so much more than many crippled and poor people.

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews 4:15) So, because Jesus has gone through things we go through here on earth, now Jesus as our Groom can feel for us. And we can use our troubles, also, to help us feel for others.
---willie_c: on 6/12/12

God bless you, Warwick!
There you go again.

Gen_1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Good, not perfect!
1Co_13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Rom_8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Nothing was made perfect, Warwick. Nothing!
Adam did not do anything, God didn't plan.

Some just can't see it.
2Co_12:9 My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Most gladly therefore

Not believing God, Warwick!
---TheSeg on 6/12/12

Linda, Christ came to seek, man does not seek God (Rom. 3:11) "..none who seeks after God"
Luke 19:10 does not say Christ came here "to seek and to save all the lost." because two thirds of human history had already run its course and most were lost, before Jesus was born. Christ is the seeker.
Horses and dogs can be lost and still find their way home. But lost sheep the further they are free the further it strays from the fold. If the sheep is ever to be recovered one must go after it. (Luke 15:4) declares, Jesus, goes after that which is lost until He find it. Christ came not only to seek and find, but also to save. "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost"
---Mark_V. on 6/12/12

Warwick, saying I said something when I did not is a lie. It was not truth so it had to be a lie. Maybe you did not have malice behind it, but you made sure others heard what you had to say concerning what I believe. Kathr lies all the time when she quotes things I have never said. You are a good guy, nowhere like her, so you could have ask me a question and I would have explained it to you. But you didn't. Even though that happened, I forgive you, and just sorry this ever happened. The subject of God's children is so important that we have to make sure we divide the children of Christ with the children of the enemy. The children of God are the beloveth. Not the others.
---Mark_V. on 6/12/12

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//Christ did not come here to see if there were any who would seek after Him//---MarkV

MarkV, I sorry but I must correct you.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him (John 4:23)

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works (John 14:10)
---LindaH on 6/11/12

The disciples thought this way and Jesus had to correct them.

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him --- John 9:1,2

Those born in sickness and poverty are a greater testament to Gods love when they are healed by Jesus Christ. They are not born in that situation because of greater sin or because God doesnt love them the same as he does everyone else.

God displays his power the most in those who are the weakest (2 Cor 12:9)
---Blogger9680 on 6/11/12

Mark_V...Because someone is born crippled, mental or poor does not make them less of a person. ---KarenD on 6/11/12

KarenD, what are you talking about? MarkV never said they were less of a person. When you put words in other people's mouth or acuse them of saying something they didn't, that's called lying. He simply said that physical and mental illnesses, as well as poverty, is a result of sin. And he's right.
---Jed on 6/11/12

Seq, we have shown from Scripture what you should already know, that Adam's sin brought the curse upon the world, that which continues, as Romans 8:23 shows. The world was created perfect as Genesis 1:31 shows but since Adam's sin the world has suffered under the curse of death, disease and suffering. Roman's 5:12-15 shows Jesus coming, His substitutionary death and resurrection, was to pay the price of Adam's sin.

As you appear to reject what Scripture says I asked you to tell me what you think "caused all the death disease and suffering in the world?"
---Warwick on 6/11/12

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We have already provided scriptures that indicate pain and death are a result of sin.

Death I see clearly for God told adam:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But where is pain and suffering?
Please be specific.
---TheSeg on 6/11/12

Mark, you accused me of lying. By definition lying is "a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive, an intentional untruth." What you called a lie really is a difference of opinion over who are Jesus children. As you are a Christian (with, in my opinion a few strange views) I think it is up to you to apologize for your error in calling me a liar.
---Warwick on 6/11/12

A man witholds from his family and don't get struck by lightning, God loves him more than the family?
The hyper jack-asses always come up with the doozies!
1Timothy 5:8

Jesus said:
Mark 7:9_13 "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
...Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."

Mark V in the Samaritan's shoes would have said, 'well I know that you deserve this your befallen misery as otherwise it
would not have happened'.
Luke 18:10_14, Mark V would play the Pharisee and say, 'thank God I am of the elect and not like this jerk next to me, a loser!'
---Nana on 6/11/12

Mark_V...Because someone is born crippled, mental or poor does not make them less of a person. Some of the toughest people I know fit into those categories. Some of the weakest people I know are physically and mentally healthy and very rich. God cares more about our spiritual condition than the physical.
---KarenD on 6/11/12

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What was Adam big sin? 99.9% of you will say, "He disobeyed God." So God punish him! If this is what you believe, I got no problem with it. -Seq on 6/11/2012

Yes Seq, that is what we believe because that's what the Bible says. We have already provided scriptures that indicate pain and death are a result of sin.
---Jed on 6/11/12

What do you imagine caused all the death disease and suffering in the world?

That's just the point I don't want to imagine!
I want to know where he said, "We suffer spiritually, mentally, and physically because of sin"
Or that sin is what is causing all the suffering in the world.

You guys seem to be saying these things are because of sin.
What I am saying is these things are because of a disbelief in God.
What was Adam big sin? 99.9% of you will say, "He disobeyed God."
So God punish him!

If this is what you believe, I got no problem with it.
I would just say don't disobey God!
I can imagine a lot of things.
But I try not too.
---TheSeg on 6/11/12

Warwick 2: I tried to correct you concerning God's People, or His children. Christ did not come here to see if there were any who would seek after Him. Of course not (Rom. 3:11) "there is none that seeketh after God"
And again,

Thou shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save (His people) from their sins"
not try to, not half do so, but actually save them. About (His people) only God's word says, "(Thy people) shall be willing in the day of they power" (Ps. 110:3).
He tells us we are (His sheep), "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it abundantly. I am the good Shepherd: the good Shepherd giveth His life for the Sheep" (John 10:10.11).
---Mark_V. on 6/11/12

Warwick, I answered you about God's children. His children, His people, are those who have been redeemed by Christ. Gen. 3:15 divides His children and those of the devil.
Christ came here to carry into effect God's sovereign purpose of election, to save a people already "His" (Matt. 1:21) by covenant settlement. They are a people God hath "from the beginning chosen unto salvation" ( 2 Thess. 2:13), redemption was in order to the accomplishing of that decree.
(Luke 19:10) does not say that Christ came here to save all the lost. Two thirds of human history had already died before Jesus was born. It was (the lost) for which He became incarnated. That is the condition in which God's elect are by nature.
---Mark_V. on 6/11/12

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Seg, you do not think that Adam was cursed when he sinned? The Bible tells us that not only was Adam cursed, but that the entire human race was cursed as well as the earth because of Adam's sin, since Adam was the appointed head of all mankind. The Bible tells us that because of one man's sin (Adam's) the curse of death entered to all men (mankind). All pain and suffering we have today are a result of the curse from Adam's sin. The Bible tells us that our sinful nature in itself is part of that curse.
---Jed on 6/10/12

Seq, Jesus says (John 9:3) this man was a specific case, his blindness caused "so that the work of God may be displayed in his life."

Nonetheless when Adam sinned God cursed the world with death, disease and suffering. "The wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" 1 Corinthians 15:22.

We suffer because of our sin, but also because of the sin of others, don't we?

In Luke 13 Jesus is not saying those who perished were not sinners, but that they were no worse than others. He continues, twice telling them they will all perish because of their sin.

What do you imagine caused all the death disease and suffering in the world?
---Warwick on 6/10/12

We suffer spiritually, mentally, and physically because of sin

Where is it written we suffer because of sin?
If this was so Christ would have said this is because of sin.
Instead, when his disciples asked him, who did sin?
He answered, Joh_9:3, neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents.

When, God cursed the earth because of Adam's sin.
It was not done to him, but for him or instead of him.
Why do we think, if they suffer here it's because he's bad or sinful?

Luk 13:2 Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell.

I say this because it is true.
---TheSeg on 6/10/12

Everyone is born with different advantages and disadvantages. I don't think we will ever fully know God's purpose for this until we meet him. I think alot of it is a result of sin. For example, some babies are born with brain and physical damage because the mother smoked cigaretes or used drugs and alcohol during pregnancy, or because she was beaten during pregnancy. Even just an unhealthy diet (i.e. cafeine) or being obese during pregnancy can cause your child to have health problems. I have seen this personally with my sisters. One of them really made healthy changes during pregancy, but the other sister didn't seem to care and continued her unhealthy diet and did not exercise. The difference in their children's development is stark.
---Jed on 6/10/12

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read aka on 6/9/12

now, find me scripture that says those, who are born crippled, mental, and poor are not loved by God.
---aka on 6/9/12

Mark, Genesis 3:17 says God cursed the earth because of Adam's sin. Romans 8:20-22 says "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now."

We suffer spiritually, mentally, and physically because of sin and will one day be liberated. For this reason the Lord of all came to set our cursed world free. He loves all His creation including those born physically, mentally or spiritually crippled. I praise God for that. This is the gospel.
---Warwick on 6/10/12

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people, and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Why is it people just cant see whats is written here?
---TheSeg on 6/10/12

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