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Doctrine Of Predestination

Is the doctrine of Predestination true?

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 ---trey on 8/23/12
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Linda 2: it is obvious you are using common sense the world uses, which is blind faith, who object the right of God to save whom He wants to have mercy on. You believe like many here, that if He doesn't save all, He is not a righteous God. You seem to believe that sinful man and satan are defeating the purposes of God. You also believe that sinful man, with his own abilities, can seek and choose Christ. But you are wrong.
Only those born of God believe and become children of God. "But as many as receive Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, "who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12,13
---Mark_V. on 9/11/12

Linda, you say you have free will to choose Christ or not. That you have that ability without God interfering with your choice. Your own merits.
God says different,
"As it is written" ... There is none who understands, There is none who seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11).
How can you seek salvation when you cannot seek God? Jesus is God, don't you understand?
It's impossible for anyone to seek God while in a lost condition. The message is for Jews and Gentiles.
God has to Grant you faith and repentance in order for you or anyone to believe,
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29: 2 Tim. 2:25,26).
---Mark_V. on 9/11/12

Uhh I never said man saves himself. Nice try though.

Its perfectly obvious to MOST people here that your problem is that your understanding is so shallow that you have only two possible categories to put people in.

Your doctrine is so easily defeated with common sense that often times scripture is not even needed. You obviously fear that rethinking your doctrine is rejecting God himself. That is exactly what cults do to their followers. They make you afraid to challenge what you have been taught. The exact opposite of what God commands us to do. The real "truth" will never leave you wondering and will never require you to fill in the blanks with human reasoning (which you often do). There wont be any blanks.
---LindaH on 9/10/12

Linda, you speak heresy and I still love you. You are not a pedophile, child molester, are child murderer that I know of, just someone who does not believe that it is God who saves sinful man and that sinful man does not save himself by his own merits (free will) as you call it. The will of the lost is not free, it is in bondage to sin, its in spiritual blindness and needs the Real Doctor (Holy Spirit) to bring sight to the sinful man before He can see spiritual matters, for we worship Him in Spirit and Truth.
And most of the heresy is well displayed here on the website when people here call Christians speak on behalf of sinful man having one up on God who is holy and righteous. For I know it is emnity against God that is showing out.
---Mark_V. on 9/10/12

When Jesus is speaking to the Jewish leaders He tells them that He wanted to gather them together like chicks but they REFUSED. Jesus then tells them that their house is left to them desolate. In other words God will no longer live in their house (temple) that they built because they have corrupted it with false teaching.

The point is that Jesus would have saved them but as He says they REFUSED. Where is predestination here?

The message sent out thru the Holy Spirit today goes to all nations. And as we are told God never changes so it is the same message which says take it or leave it, it is your choice.
---barb on 9/10/12

RichardC * John 6:37 ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME, Shall come :and him that cometh to I will no wise case out.

Who are those that cometh to him? "Everyone who listens to the Father comes to him" V45

RichardC * John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I Know them and THEY FOLLOW ME.

It does not say 'My sheep "Heard" my voice, and I "KNEW" them and they "FOLLOWED" me, does it?

RichardC * ALL - that God has Chosen WILL be saved and the Father will not lose any of them.

But yet Judas was chosen and was lost:)
---Ruben on 9/10/12

MarkV, there is a vast difference between suffering FOR Christ and the "sufferings OF Christ" AKA: the fellowship OF HIS SUFFERINGS,(NOT your SUFFERINGS) being made conformable to His death ..Phil 3.
---kathr4453 on 9/10/12

ALL - that God has Chosen WILL be saved and the Father will not lose any of them.

interesting. and where does it say what you wrote because it is not from the written word of God and your final statement is not a summary of the verses you chose!! Do you know Gods warning for adding to his words??? You have taken the verses about God calling and mixed them up with salvation!! Did you notice there is nothing about salvation in the verses you chose?? you have certainly proved the false doctrine of predestination!
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/10/12

Follower of Christ 9/9/12 Further God speaks of salvation For ALL ?

The ALL in view, Would have ALL that GOD has Chosen . If God wanted to save every body God could,

John 6:37 ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME, Shall come :and him that cometh to I will no wise case out.

John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I Know them and THEY FOLLOW ME.

John 10:29 - My Father Which gave them me ,is greater than all ,and no man is able to pluck them out of my father hand.

ALL - that God has Chosen WILL be saved and the Father will not lose any of them.
---RichardC on 9/9/12

if a predestination doctrine existed then gift of salvation is non-existent and holy scripture is teasing mankind with an empty promise. The contradiction is enough to understand the doctrine of predestination is a doctrine created by men and not from God. Contradiction of dangling an empty promise and hollow gift of salvation when in effect the gift of salvation described in the written word would be trumped by mans predestination doctrine. The gift of salvation would have no value if salvation was already predetermined. Further God speaks of salvation for all. Choose to follow the Lord Jesus and understand salvation is a gift to all of mankind although Gods purpose does not reveal this gift to every person in their lifetime.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/9/12

Very little love for heresy, MarkV. Don't get that confused with a lack of love for Christ. If fact you could say that those of us who feel differently than you DO suffer for the cause of Christ, like when we are judged as completely lost altogether because we dont agree that God makes certain men only for the sheer pleasure of torturing them for eternity.

At times its very hard to separate the love for the person from the hatred of their false teaching, especially when the person is so stubborn. I can understand Gods hatred of arrogance and why he resists the proud.
---LindaH on 9/9/12

James L, you say believers can be faithless. There is no such believer. All believers do the will of God if they are saved. Christ called believers to preach the gospel, if a person is not preaching the gospel he is not doing the will of God and isn't a believer. suffering has to be granted to you by God,
"For it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29). Believe and suffering are granted by God.
"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.." (Matt. 5:10,11)
(Rom. 8:16-18: Matt. 6:19-21 suffer lose of money on earth because our treasure is in heaven.
---Mark_V. on 9/9/12

Linda, the norm is that all believers suffer for Christ in their lives. Of course if God saves someone and two hours later he dies, he didn't suffer for Christ. That is pretty obvious. But if someone has any kind of life in Christ, he will preach the gospel to someone at one time or another, or people will know who he is because of his faith and he will suffer redicule for the cause of Christ. If he is not suffering for Christ, then he is not in Christ. All believers have faith. There is not one who is faithless and be a believer. Believer means he has faith. Unbelievers means he doesn't. you don't care to suffer for Christ, then you do not have the love of Christ in your heart. As I can see, there is very little love here.
---Mark_V. on 9/9/12

Mark V,
learn the definition of the word faithful, if you are honestly misusing it in ignorance
stop deceitfully redefining faithful and accusing me of using it in that way.

\\Look up the passages concerning faith, then the ones concerning suffering, and they all pertain to those who are saved.\\
---Mark_V. on 9/8/12

Then look up the warnings against being unfaithful and not suffering, and they all pertain to those who believe the gospel and are eternally secure

And stop twisting my words and God's words around backward
---James_L on 9/8/12

I want you to know that I can provide Scripture for you, but I will not at this time. It would be useless since you believe that believers don't suffer for Christ---MarkV

He said not ALL believers.
There you go once again twisting peoples words. You love to do that, dont you, Mark?

He is asking for scripture that says ALL believers suffer for Christ.

For one who claims noone else provides scripture for their beliefs, you sure are quick to make excuses as to why you WONT give any.
---LindaH on 9/8/12

//I want you to know that I can provide Scripture for you, but I will not at this time. It would be useless //

maybe to james, but what about us others?

iow, you cannot provide the scriptures that back your word and refute james.
---aka on 9/8/12

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James L, I went back again and you did ask for scripture. I was wrong. I want you to know that I can provide Scripture for you, but I will not at this time. It would be useless since you believe that believers don't suffer for Christ, or have faith. Look up the passages concerning faith, then the ones concerning suffering, and they all pertain to those who are saved. If you don't have faith in Christ and His works, you are not saved, and you will not suffer for Christ. There is chastisement for those genuine believers who disobey, but that does not mean they don't have saving faith or that they don't suffer in some way for Christ. In fact if you are not chastised, you are illiget. Pretty simple.
---Mark_V. on 9/8/12

Could you explain why God uses chastisement, if every believer is faithful?
---James_L on 9/5/12

---CraigA on 9/8/12


Enough of arguing the irrelevant!

Is the doctrine of Predestination true? Are some people born saved and some born lost, with no hope of ever changing their status? If Predestination is true, then the entire Bible is false, because from Genesis to Revelation, it speaks of the salvation of the lost!

---jerry6593 on 9/8/12

James L, I was not running from you, I love to discuss Scripture. I was trying to avoid you getting more mad and cause you to sin. That's not my purpose, that is why I answered you politely.
You then said:
"I have asked repeatedly for just one passage which says that every believer is faithful, suffers, etc and you have provided none."

Maybe I missed something here, I went back and found nothing, where you ask me for a passage that states that every believer has to have faith in order to be saved. Not one time. Do you not realize you are suggesting there is faithless believers out there who have no faith in Christ? We are saved by Grace through faith. If there is no faith you cannot be saved. (Eph. 2:8).
---Mark_V. on 9/8/12

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Mark V,
we really haven't discussed anything. You call biblical doctrines foolish, and make assertions that are not corroberated with scripture. The scriptures you've quoted say nothing that you teach. Why is that?

You discuss like a politician. You make claims, and when pressed you run a smear or just evade the issue.

I have asked repeatedly for just one passage which says that every believer is faithful, suffers, etc and you have provided none.

And you have not answered why the scriptures I quote say, word for word, what I teach.

You also haven't answered my question about chastisement.

When will you answer?
---James_L on 9/7/12

James L, I do not believe I have been answering you unkind. I have not accused you of anything. Not even having the wrong gospel. We are discussing passages and their interpretations. That is all. If you want to go another way, then you will have to go on your own. I see discussing passages and context is not what you want to do. I believe you took a passage and interpreted wrong, that was all. "Those who are faithless are not believers." All genuine believers have faith. We are saved by grace through faith. There is nothing for you to get all up tight about, you should be jumping for joy when you discuss the Word of God.
---Mark_V. on 9/7/12

Mark V,

Now you're demonstrating your ignorance of scripture.

Either that, or you are demonstrating that you are willing to protect your doctrine at all cost

Look, man. I understand how scary it is to consider that much of what you've believed is false. I've been there. It doesn't have to be scary, though. Consider the scriptures, and the truth will set you free.

And you didn't answer the question I posed concerning chastisement. Why would God chastise us if we are being faithful?
---James_L on 9/7/12

James L, you now gave (2 Tim. 2:13) as proof that there is believers who are faithless. That is so silly. Here is the passage:
"If we are faithless, He remains faithful. He cannot deny Himself"
So what does it say? "If you are faithless" you know who are faithless? Those who are lost. "For anything without faith is sin." Then it says, "God remains faithful" He is always faithful, never stops been faithful. As faithful as Jesus is to save those who believe in Him (John 3:16) He is equally faithful to judge those who do not believe in Him (John 3:18). To act any other way would be inconsistent with His holy, unchangeable nature (Heb. 10:23).
---Mark_V. on 9/7/12

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\\they are faithful and other saints are not. That is nonsense.\\
---Mark V

2Tim 2:13
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself

sure. that scriptrue is also nonsense, right?

I have not run out of arguments, because I'm not the one arguing, you are.

You still have not provided one scripture which says that every believer suffers, that every believer is faithful, that every believer witnesses about Christ, that every believer will endure, or that every believer will reign with Christ. I only asked for one.

I have provided scriptrues, yet you try to twist them around backward.

Could you explain why God uses chastisement, if every believer is faithful?
---James_L on 9/5/12

James L, you have run out of arguments, now you are saying saints are different in Ephesus because they are faithful and other saints are not. That is nonsense. The beloveth saints are everywhere. I believe I have given you Scripture but you will reject it anyway. Believers are believers, non-believers are non-believers. Sheep are sheep and goats are goats.
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph. 4:4,5).
---Mark_V. on 9/5/12

\\Then you said,
" and to have a hope of obtaining an inheritance."

Scripture says, "In Him we have obtained an inheritance,..." (Eph. 1:11-14)\\
---Mark_V. on 9/4/12

Where does anything in Ephesians 1 say that EVERY BELIEVER will suffer? Any Context ?? Not from you

Who was Paul writing to? Right. The Ephesians.

Not so fast

To the saints who are in Ephesus, AND ARE FAITHFUL in Christ Jesus (ESV)

To The Faithful. That's who I've been talking about.

Were you content to stop reading at verse 14?

that you may know what is THE HOPE TO WHICH HE HAS CALLED YOU, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints
---James_L on 9/4/12

JOHN 6:44 - No man can come to me, except Father which has sent me draw him,

EPHESIANS - 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved , though faith, not of yourselves it is a gift of God

THESSALONLIANS 2:13 - But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you,brethren beloved of the lord because God Hath FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN YOU to Salvation though sanciification of spirit and belief of the holy spirit and belief of the truth.

2 TIMOTHY 1:9 - Who has saved us and Called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , But according to his own purpose and grace,Which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.
---RICHARDC on 9/4/12

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James you said,
"According to scripture, believers are supposed to "hung up" on suffering"
Paul was never hung up on suffering. He was hung up on Christ, and knew because of Christ he would suffer. Then you said,
" and to have a hope of obtaining an inheritance."

Scripture says, "In Him we have obtained an inheritance,..." (Eph. 1:11-14)
And, "In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory"
When the Holy Spirit sealed us, He was our guaranteed.
---Mark_V. on 9/4/12

Speaking of suffering, the only ones I ever read of in the scriptures that do not suffer are wicked. That is not to say that all the wicked do not suffer here in time, but I believe many of them "fair sumptuously":
Example #1
Lu16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Example #2
Job 21:7 - 16.

For the child of God this life is as bad as it can get. After this it's all Heavenly!!!
---trey on 9/3/12

\\Bro. James, I also believe you are hung up, not only on suffering but on inheritance.\\
---Mark_V. on 9/2/12

1Peter 1:3-4
born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance

1Peter 2:21
For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps

According to scripture, believers are supposed to "hung up" on suffering, and to have a hope of obtaining an inheritance.

You say that all "true" believers exhibit certain qualities that are in keeping with His will, yet you admit that you aren't hung up on suffering or inheritance. Is that a self indictment?
---James_L on 9/3/12

James 2: I wanted to thank you for your answers even if we do not agree. I believe the passage in (Romans 8:16,17) means that if you suffer with Him you are one of the saved (if children) then heirs-of God. (v.18) speaks of that suffering.
Also all those who have the Spirit suffer,
"If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rest upon you" (1 Peter 4:14).
peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 9/3/12

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Samuel, you gave five points, and in one you say,
"3.unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to Gods will,"

If a person is unable to respond to God's will without the Holy Spirit, how can he do all the other points you made? If the Spirit does not bring light to you, how can you see spiritual matters? God is Spirit.
If the Holy Spirit does not change you heart, how can a person seek God? If the Holy Spirit through the Word brings faith, how can a person without the Spirit have faith? Here again I say,
" Such a God cannot be found out by searching as you think you have. He can be known only as He is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit through the Word"
---Mark_V. on 9/3/12

Arminius theological statement signed by 45 ministers. The Five Articles of the Remonstrance asserted that:
1.election (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the rational faith or nonfaith of man,
2.the Atonement, while qualitatively adequate for all men, was efficacious only for the man of faith,
3.unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to Gods will,
4.grace is not irresistible, and
5.believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace.
I agree.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/2/12

sorry, to the spanish and english speaking mark_v. i think James has a reason to be stuck on suffering. and, i presented scripture to back his "obsession".

how long do we have to suffer through those that ask for scripture, get it, and then, with a little twist, deny the very thing that you wrote?
---aka on 9/2/12

Bro. James, I also believe you are hung up, not only on suffering but on inheritance. You believed someone's commentary, so accuse me of making up stories. I gave you the context of the passages in (Matt.10) and explained what Jesus told the disciples, and still you say I made it up. Then ask to provide passages, that there is nothing to what I say.
"For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,..." (Phil. 1:29). and there is more passages James, that space will not allow.
If a person is a genuine believer, he will suffer for the cause of Christ. If he doesn't it gives evidence there has been no change in him. For it has to be granted to him by God.
---Mark_V. on 9/2/12

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But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra, what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them,
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Give it time
---TheSeg on 9/1/12

//JamesL is hung up on suffering// Rom 8:16-17 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

//provide scripture which says all who believe in Christ shall suffer or are suffering.//Act_9:16 For I will show [paul] how much he must suffer for the sake of my name. Php 1:29-30 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

through interpolation, jesus states how we all will suffer for His name.
---aka on 9/1/12

\\Wow James_L!
Really, provide scripture which says all who believe in Christ shall suffer or are suffering.\\
---TheSeg on 9/1/12

Yeah, really. Mark keeps saying it, but where's the scripture?

After all, I have provided scripture, with supporting scripture. Not only that, the scriptures I quoted actually say, word for word, what I am saying

And even your post did not have any scriptures attached.

Why is it that Mark's position should be believed, if it is only by his words that we hear it?

Where's the scripture?

Just one?

---James_L on 9/1/12

Mark, I'll hold him and you hit him.
Or if you want, you hold him?

Wow James_L!
Really, provide scripture which says all who believe in Christ shall suffer or are suffering.

---TheSeg on 9/1/12

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James L,
I did not twist (Matt. 10:22).

Yes you have. over and over again

\\All genuine Christians, born of God, witness for Christ.\\

Prove it. So far all you've done is assert it without any scriptural support

\\It also applies to every genuine believer, because all endure persecution for Christ.\\

Again, prove it. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true.

Why is it that I can provide multiple scriptures to support my position, saying word for word exactly what I teach?

Yet, the scriptures you quote say nothing like what you teach? In fact, many times they say the exact opposite.

provide one scripture which says that every believer will suffer.
---James_L on 9/1/12

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now!

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word!

That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, (that they also may be one in us:)
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me!

(And the glory which thou gavest me) (I have given them,) Pretty clear!
that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

---TheSeg on 9/1/12

James L,
I did not twist (Matt. 10:22).
All genuine Christians, born of God, witness for Christ. When witnessing, they will endure redicule and be mocked for the cause of Christ. I don't believe there is one genuine believer who does not run into those not worthy to hear the gospel. When Jesus sent the disciples He told them, do not go to the Gentiles, and second, if they were not worthy let their peace return back to them, (Matt. 10:5-23). The disciples were in question here. (v. 23) "When they persecute you in this city flee to another" (Matt 10:22) Is speaking of their persecution, for the cause of Christ. That's the context. It also applies to every genuine believer, because all endure persecution for Christ.
---Mark_V. on 9/1/12


No! Predestination is logically inconsistent. It claims that a person is "saved" before they were born. But the Bible says that Jesus came to save the "lost". So, if you were saved before birth, then you can't be lost. And if you aren't lost, then Jesus can't save you. And if Jesus doesn't save you, then you're really lost because there's no other way to be saved.

---jerry6593 on 9/1/12

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I believe what the Bible says is predestination is true > we are destined "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:29). So, we can expect how God changes us to become like Jesus > "in this world" (1 John 4:17). And God is our potter > Romans 9:21. So, He has not only decided about us, but a potter has hands-on control of what he chooses to do with each piece of clay, "clay does not choose". And His word accomplishes all God wants > Isaiah 55:11. So, we are commanded, "choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:19), and God through His word works in us to have us do this > Philippians 2:13. He in us shares His freedom to will good (1 Corinthians 6:17, 2 Corinthians 3:17-18).
---willie_c: on 9/1/12

\\MarkV, you are correct.\\
---trey on 8/31/12

Wow. I forgot all about being told that you are the one who gets to determine it.

\\I know JamesL is hung up on suffering\\
---trey on 8/31/12

Actually, what I'm hung up on is context.

Too bad Protestants aren't
---James_L on 8/31/12

MarkV, you are correct. Paul is giving us reassurance that we are heirs and joint-heirs. I know JamesL is hung up on suffering, Christ stated this:
Joh16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.

The Apostle Paul promises this:
2Tim3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Job stated this:
Job14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.

Seems to me, God's people suffer, but our suffering brings us closer to Him.
---trey on 8/31/12

Even more so!

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth,
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God!

And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Behold, he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen!
---TheSeg on 8/31/12

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Heir means that every believer....\\
---Mark_V. on 8/31/12

Where do any of those verses say "every believer" ???

You can read into those passages all you want, but unless you can provide a plain statement then it is nothing more than eisegesis - fictional doctrines

Why not explain the passages I have provided ??

Or do they not exist ??

And I don't think anyone is looking to see you twist them around backwards, pushing an "inevitable" meaning into a clearly conditional statement, as you have done before with Matt 10:22

It says whoever endures will be saved


Whoever is saved will endure

If that's the best you have, I won't discuss it
---James_L on 8/31/12

James L, I've read (Romans 8:17,18) Heir means that every believer has been made an heir of God our Father (Matt. 25:34: Gal. 3:29: Eph. 1:11). We will inherit eternal salvation (Titus 2:7), God Himself (Lam. 3:24: Ps. 73:25: Rev. 21:3) glory (5:2). "Joint heirs" refers to God appointing His Son to be heir of all things (Heb 1:2) and so every adopted child will receive by divine grace the full inheritance Christ receives by divine right (Matt. 25:21: John 17:22: 2 Cor. 8:9). "If we suffer with Him" means, proof of the believers ultimate glory is that he suffers, whether suffering comes as mockery, ridicule or physical persecution, because of His Lord (Matt. 5:10-12: John 15:18-21: 2 Cor. 4:17: 2 Tim. 3:12).
---Mark_V. on 8/31/12

\\Also if a person has free will then can they not choose to pass from life to death?\\

These philosophical meanderings are worthless. Scripture is clear.

And there is not one single scripture which says the fate of an apostate is eternal damnation. There are some you can read into.

God could say the sky is never grey, then the next day someone say the sky isn't clear. You would read into it that the sky was grey, and negate the absolute assertion that the sky is never grey

Devising whatever your mind wants to, and never providing a plain statement to affirm your position. Only vain philosophy and scripture twisting
---James_L on 8/30/12

\\Jhn 5:24....
This verse does indeed say we have passed from death to life. But a key word here is believe. If a person quits believing does this promise still hold?\\

Yes, the promise still holds true.

2Tim 2:13
"If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself"

Hebrews 6:4-8 (don't stop reading at verse 6 as you've been taught)

"in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit...and then have fallen CLOSE TO being accursed."
---James_L on 8/30/12

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trey (part 2),

In 1999, I stumbled across a book:

Reign of the Servant Kings
by Joseph Dillow.

His teachings are the base of my doctrine, and it is refered to as "Free Grace"

It is espoused by many who attended Dallas Theological Seminary

It is attacked as "easy believism" by those who wish to hold the impossible, confusing, paradoxical, conflicted view that salvation is free, yet costs us everything.

I have studied apart from Dillow's work, though. Two very key areas:

inheritance in the OT
sons in the OT

Those two areas of study were absolutely essential to my understanding of the New Testament
---James_L on 8/30/12

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

This verse does indeed say we have passed from death to life. But a key word here is believe. If a person quits believing does this promise still hold?

Also if a person has free will then can they not choose to pass from life to death?

Is the believe here a one time thing or is a continuing action?
---Samuelbb7 on 8/30/12

Mark V,
Rom 8:17
joint-heirs with Christ "IF" we suffer with Him

James and John asked to sit at His left and right "when you come into your glory"

Jesus did not assure them that every belever will share in His glory

Instead, "It is to those for whom it has been prepared" and "are you able to beptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?"

the fellowship of Christ's suffering so that we may attain to the resurrection "Not that I have already obtained it....I press on toward the prize"

Matthew 10:22 Whoever endures [suffering] to the end will be saved.

2Tim 2:12
"IF" we endure we will reign with Him

it is conditional
---James_L on 8/30/12

James L, I also did not understand what you meant by conditional. In Hebrews Jesus was crown with glory and honor for dying for us. The glory spoken of in (Rom. 5:2 and Col.1:27) is seen as the hope of all believers in the future despite the fact that one of the key verses (Rom.8:30) appears to place glorify in the past, but all other passages puts it in the future. Like all facets of salvation, glorification is the work of God (Rom.8:30). To it believers are called (1 Thess. 2:12: 1 Peter 5:10) brought (Heb. 2:10) and foreordained (1 Cor. 1:27). God prepares glory for us ( 1Cor. 2:9) it is ours by inheritance (Rom. 8:17). glorification is sought by all believers so all believers will be made glorious, holy, and blameless (Eph. 5:27).
---Mark_V. on 8/30/12

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trey (part 1),

My doctrine is not unique.

Initially, I was tossed about between Calvinism and Arminianism. Wanting to believe the Calvinist that we are eternally secure, but couldn't escape the reality that the Arminian position had more biblical merit. The NT warnings are real, and are directed at bona fide believers - not ignored as hypothetical like in Calvinism

But the Arminian position ultimately places the burden of eternal life back on the believer. Scripture says that those who believe in Jesus have already passed form death to life, and will never come into condemnation. That is ignored altogether by the Arminian

With an honest, objective mind I became utterly bewildered, looking for resolution
---James_L on 8/29/12

JamesL, I have never heard anyone that believes like you do. Where did you come up with all this? Is your doctrine your own or is it a certain denominations?
---trey on 8/29/12

whether all God's people suffer.

It is planned that all of God's people will suffer, but some prefer the things of this world instead.

John 12:42-43
there were many who believed in Christ. They had eternal life. But, they were not confessing Him, because that would have brought suffering. They preferred the praises of men rather than God.

Jesus said in the parable of the sower that some will reeive the word, which means they believed the gospel and were saved. But many fell away immediately, and others get caught up in the cares of this world

the book of Hebrews was written because bona fide believers were ditching Christ to go back to the Law to avoid persecution
---James_L on 8/29/12

this is not a doctrine preached by the Lord or taught by the Apostles. There is a predestinate call to follow the Lord however it is not a doctrine it is a description of the little flock of the Lord Jesus.
---Follower_of_Christ on 8/29/12

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Please note the capitalized words, and compare how they are intermingled in various NT passages:
The Elect
were Chosen to be conformed to the image of Christ
Predestined to Suffer with Christ and each other,
Endure with the hope of Glory
and receive this Glory,
to share in Christ's Inheritance
and Reign with Him
it's commonly called Salvation in the NT

that's why Paul said he fills up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions (Col 1:24)


I Endure all things for the sake of the Elect, that they may obtain the Salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it, Glory (2Tim 2:10)

It is conditional, and not all will endure. they will still be saved, but as through fire
---James_L on 8/28/12

JamesL, please help me to understand what you are saying. It sounds like your saying only certain people are predestinated to go to heaven, and some get there by some other way? It also sounds like your saying that not everyone that goes to Heaven will be glorified, only those who are predestinated?

Am I understanding you correctly?
---trey on 8/28/12

\\If God forekew someone....wouldn't that mean that person was going to heaven?\\

Yes. Those whom God foreknew, He predestined, called, justified, and glorified.

Glorified means to bestow glory upon. Hebrews 2:9-10 says that this glory was bestowed upon Christ because He suffered the cross, and that He is bringing many to glory with Him. That is when He comes into His kingdom. James and John asked for this glory, but Jesus said it was not His choice. Instead that some were prepared beforehand for this glory (Mark 10:35-40). This is Predestination.

But not everyone who goes to heaven will have this glory bestowed upon them. It is to those who were chosen.
---James_L on 8/28/12

James L, If God forekew someone and predestinated them to be conformed to the image of his Son then wouldn't that mean that person was going to heaven?

One more question for you: Do not all God's people suffer?
---trey on 8/28/12

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Patricia , you hit the nail on the head with ur post. We r all predestined to be born again if we would only listen to the Holy Spirit. Even the firmament speaks of the power of a Holy God.
---shira4368 on 8/28/12


i agree wholeheartedly.
---aka on 8/28/12

There is a BIG difference between the "doctrine" of Predestination and the "biblical teaching" on Predestination

The doctrine is wrong on both sides of the Protestant debate. BOTH sides are taking the concept out of context.

SOME believers were foreknown as "sons" are the Elect. Those who were foreknown as sons were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ through suffering. ONLY those who suffer with Christ will become joint-heirs with Him.

Nobody was predestined to heaven or hell, whether by a random selection or by God konwing in advance what we would choose. Neither position is biblical
---James_L on 8/27/12

Predestination From Scripture:
Romans 8:30 More over whom He did predestinate them He also called......
Meaning: when we are saved we are to be conformed to the image of His Son.
God will not violate a persons free will.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
---Patricia on 8/26/12

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TRUTH: God has always foreknown all who will "freely choose" to believe & follow Him. Likewise, He has known all who'll "choose" to reject Him. Omniscient God knows all!!!

Our predestination is determined by who we "choose" to believe & follow in our lives upon earth. God has given us all "free will", the ability to "choose" to reject Him & send (destine) one's self to Hell. Or, we can "choose" to believe God, repent of our sin & be counted amongst the redeemed with Him in Heaven.

God has given us Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth (the BIBLE) to enable us to individually make an informed decision as to where we want to spend eternity. TRUTH!
---Leon on 8/26/12

Free Will is not of the devil nor does it mean that we are equal to God but that we choose to surrender our will and to follow God's will to be our will. i completely agree that God has to pour his grace on us (as Seg mentioned below) but I believe in resistable grace in that we have to surrender ourselves. See chapters in gospel when Jesus goes home and cannot perform many miracles due to people lack of faith.
---Scott1 on 8/26/12

I believe predestination is the true doctrine.
I don't believe anyone ever chose God.
This is something you want to believe.
Am I going to get into a heated debate about this?

There is no one that can withstand God!
If God had not come to us first, we wouldn't even know there was a God.

Christ said:
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...
Pretty clear

What's also clear is not everyone has been chosen. Yet!
Because he said in, Joh_13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen:
but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Who ate with Christ? Everyone!
---TheSeg on 8/25/12

As Free Will was invented by Satin when he thought he was equal to God and tried to usurp YHWH. So why would anyone want to follow Free Will. God handpicked the Elect prior to creation as he has total fore knowledge of every action or inaction everyone would ever take. Christ primary purpose was to pray the price of the Elect to move from their former Patria Potesta into God's there by becoming adopted children of God with Christ as their brother. If you advocate Free Will your god is Satin.
---Blogger9211 on 8/24/12

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There is more than one doctrine of predestination. Which one are you talking about?

Biblical predestination includes that God "predestined" us "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn of many brethren." (in Romans 8:29)

But there are people who claim predestination, but they say nothing about how it is to become "conformed to the image of" Jesus. They can used predestination for status, instead, so they can then look down on others.

Also, certain "free will" people can look down on others who do not make the same "choice" as they do. We need how love has us understand and live true beliefs.
---willie_c: on 8/24/12

i used to believe that i actually had a choice in becoming a Christian, but the older i get, the more i believe God just used a bigger bat to whack me over to his side.... (predestination: yes!)
---chip on 8/23/12

it depends on what doctrine of predestination of which you speak....

predestination AND will


predestination OR free will
---aka on 8/24/12

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